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Homosexuality and Christianity #258843 07/16/06 10:19 PM
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This thread is kind of a leap frog from the discussion Homophobia is Ignorant .

A couple of us were getting off subject on the fact of whether homosexuality was against God or not, so I thought I'd start this topic over here, so we wouldn't completely take over that thread (and make people mad).

I'll copy over the last couple of posts that were relevant to this discussion so we can get it going over here.


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258844 07/16/06 10:21 PM
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From emaster101
Quote:
I certainly don;t want to discriminate against anyone. I would NEVER call anyone names or use violence of any kind. My arguments are strictly behavior oriented. There is no argument that people are born heterosexual. Our sexual parts are designed for that. There is no proof anyone is born gay.


What about the poor souls that are born hermaphroditic? Or the children who have been injured during birth and are out of necessity given a sex change? (I'm thinking back to a couple of baby boys who were burned badly and had to be changed into girls, I don't recall any going the other way.)

Also, sex in the human world is not solely, or even mostly about reproduction. If it were, then we would not have so many infertile couples. I think most here know that I am a fairly outspoken Christian, and I do not feel that God would create sex for reproduction and then torture women by not letting them reproduce!

Eve was created for Adam as a partner, and sexual relations bring partners closer together. It is a bonding like no other. I believe the *perfect* way would be for everyone to come to their marriage bed as a virgin - in a heterosexual relationship. But this is not a perfect world.

There are times when men and women do not find the love and compassion (or sometimes some elusive something that cannot be defined) from a member of the opposite sex. Sometimes there are psychological reasons for this, sometimes there are events that have happened in the past, but sometimes I believe that, yes, the body's physical makeup can play a role. Just because a person is born with a certain set of sexual organs, does not mean that their brain and endocrine system is putting out the correct amount of hormones.

But it is not our place to judge or even question who loves whom on this earth. As a Christian it is my responsibility to introduce people to my Savior, and then they can decide about what changes, if any, need to be made in their lives. I am only responsible for the changes that need to be made in my own - and possibly the ones in my children's, for as long as they are still innocent, and I am still teaching them.


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258845 07/16/06 10:22 PM
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From emaster 101

Quote:
Bella,
Am I to understand that as a Christian you condone homosexual behavior? Because if you do I suggest you read what Jesus said in Matthew 15:8-9. You cannot be a Christian and condone lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness. According to the Christian faith, homosexuality is sin and warning sinners of God's wrath abiding on the sinner is part of your charge as a Christian to help lead them to Christ.You do not judge the person but you do agree with God's judgements on what constitutes sin and its consequences.And you warn the sinner of his transgressions. People don't get saved unless they first realize they are in need of a savior. The fact that you get on here and defend homosexuality is strong evidence you have compromised your faith in the commandments of God and replaced them in your heart with the commandments of men.


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258846 07/16/06 10:35 PM
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Whew! That one hit hard.

I don't condone any extramarital sex, be it homo or heterosexual.

But I have a very hard time with judging anyone, or condemning anyone for it, because before I became a Christian, I was involved premarital sex as well as affairs during my first marriage. All that changed after I was saved, but it doesn't change the fact that I did do those things and commit those sins.

I do not get on the homosexuality sites to defend homosexuality. I get on those sites to let people know that not all Christians are turned against them. Jesus loved everyone, and he hung out with the people society had cast out the most! Yet today we as Christians shun the very people we need to be taking God's word and love to.

We tend to crawl into our churches and hang out with our church friends and send our kids to private Christian schools; and never sully ourselves with the lost. And that's exactly the opposite of what we were commissioned to do.

And then when we do go out; we sit there and tell everyone what they are doing wrong and how horrible they are instead of introducing them to our Best Friend. The story of Mary Magdalene tends to come to mind. She wasn't saved because Jesus preached at her for being a prostitute, but because he didn't, and he saved her from the others that had condemned her so.

Maybe I'm wrong in my approach, I don't know for sure. But I do know that of the two greatest commandments that Jesus stated, the 2nd was "Love thy neighbor" - so that's what I'm trying to do.


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258847 07/16/06 11:19 PM
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I am not against homosexuals. I am against homosexuality. I also vigorously defend marriage. Many homosexuals (or people who agree with their behavior) just assume that I oppose the person or condemn them along with their behavior. On the contrary, opposing behavior that leads to spiritual death is loving them. Those who live in sin, live apart from God. If they do not repent and come to Christ, they will be lost. I don't want to see that. God loves them. Jesus Christ did not die just for mother Theresa, He also died for Adolf Hitler and all those in between including fornicators, thieves, liars, homosexuals, adulterers. I myself am a former fornicator. That man is dead. I am reborn in Christ. Loving your neighbor is great but it is second in importance to the ," First and great commandment" " Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, with all your spirit, and with all your mind" This must come first. Otherwise we end up serving man rather than God.

Last edited by emaster101; 07/16/06 11:22 PM.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258848 07/17/06 01:45 AM
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We are all born predisposed to different temptations, many of which become an addiction: Alchol, Sex, Drugs, Porn etc. Others a compulsion and some a life choice.

Can the predisposition to homosexuality be considered a temptation that some must over come as they struggle through life?

The Bible is very clear on God's view of the practice of homosexuality, he's against it. He is also very clear about how he feels about those who practice homosexuality, he loves them.

Its like I tell my kids, I don't love your behavior, but I do love you.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258849 07/17/06 04:24 AM
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Both of you make good points.

Like I said, this is an area where I feel particularly inadequate to point fingers.

Quote:
We are all born predisposed to different temptations, many of which become an addiction: Alchol, Sex, Drugs, Porn etc. Others a compulsion and some a life choice.


I don't know if I was born with a predisposition to having a problem with sex, or if it came about because of my rape early in life; but either way it is something I deal with on a continual basis. It is much easier now that I am a Christian, and have somewhere to turn for strength other than myself, but the temptations are still there.

And it is very hard for me to throw stones at anyone in this area. And there are so many reasons for someone choosing homosexuality that go beyond just saying "Oh, this sounds interesting." I believe only God can know the hearts and minds of all those people and stand in judgement of them. It is not my place to do so.

In a perfect world all sex would take place in a monogamous, marriage under God. But unfortunately this world is not perfect, and it won't be until after Jesus returns. Until then we have to try and be as forgiving as Christ and not run off those He would want to come to Him.

Or at least that's my opinion. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258850 07/17/06 04:31 AM
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Is this Texas dave born again??? lol... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258851 07/17/06 05:18 AM
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My temptations are food and money.....

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258852 07/17/06 08:57 AM
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Why do people keep asking that? Who is TexasDave?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258853 07/17/06 01:20 PM
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I just want to add -

Just because Christians do not condone Homosexual behavior does not mean we hate Homosexuals. It's the behavior we can't condone not the person.

Just as many do not agree with Christianity. It doesn't mean that they hate Christians, just don't agree with what they believe.

I realize that many out there who claim to be Christian also have hate in their heart for certain individuals in society, Homosexuals being one. Please do not view this as an example of God, it is not. Hate is NOT a Christian characteristic. Judgemental is NOT a Christian characteristic. God is about love, acceptance and forgiveness, but you must first love and accept him. He waits for us not the other way around.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258854 07/17/06 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Why do people keep asking that? Who is TexasDave?


Just some mad old fascist that used to be on the forum.


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258855 07/17/06 09:07 PM
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You remind me of Texas Dave <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258856 07/17/06 11:52 PM
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God is not accepting of sin. Christians do not judge sin. God has already done that. You are correct, Christians love homosexuals but hate the sin of homosexuality. The act is seperate from the person.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258857 07/18/06 11:30 AM
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If your God would condemn millions of Homosexual people to lives without love and companionship, then I certainly wouldn't want any part of such a deity. I suppose that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258858 07/18/06 05:59 PM
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Billy Graham once was asked how many of the 10 comandments he had broken and he replied ALL OF THEM because if you brake one commandment you have broken them all. Homosexualty is not one of the commandments but... there is not one sin worse then any other sin!!! I am sure you dont run around and preach to poloticians "thou shall not lie" and "Your going to hell if you dont stop lieing" and im sure that you dont stand on the corner and yell "God hates Lies" or hold signs at funnerals either so why pick homosexuals for a target? there sin is no greater then our own sin!!!

Its like patience said above, "If your God would condemn millions of Homosexual people to lives without love and companionship, then I certainly wouldn't want any part of such a deity. I suppose that is why I am not a Christian and never will be."

there is no "GOOD NEWS" and no love in pointing fingers and jugdeing others... this is one of the many additudes that make me ashamed to be a chirstian and want to find a new religion because God knows we have lost the OLD TIME RELIGION of love and peace!!! the only thing that keeps me a chirstian is that GOD Loves Me for me and loves everything He created Just the way He created it and Jesus meets us where we are at and doesnot make us jump thourgh hoops like the so called Churches of today!!! Jesus would not be allowed to come in to the churches around here so i dont go either!! If my LORD cant go then i want no part of it, i would rather be in a gay bar with the outcased then to be in church without God!!! God is welcome in the bars more readily then the church!!!! whats wrong with this picture?


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258859 07/19/06 05:30 AM
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Thanks Freebubbles2, well said!

As I once said, it is all about love, not dogma. You have spoken with love and compassion. You are being true to the teachings of Jesus and that is all he asked of us - to follow him.

Bless you!


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258860 07/19/06 06:06 AM
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your welcome!!! I guess i am still touchy about slaming other who are different. my time at the reservation school open my eyes to a lot of things that i never thought about before!!! when i was in high school i wanted to fit in so bad and to have a "REAL FAMILY" that i did every such job at the church and was there 24-7-365 i thought i fit in and every one loved me for me but when i moved to be a "missionary" and came back after almost a year of flat hell i learned real quick that the hell i went through out there was the same hell i came back to but it hurt more because i had know those people my whole life and they were and are just as bad as the people that i left on the "mission field"!!! the so called chirstians that are sopost to strife for peace and love one another where only there to impress others and look good!!! I dont see myself going back to church in my life time because of that. I miss church the way I thought it should be , the way it was ment to be... and its so sad because i think God misses it too!!!


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258861 07/19/06 10:31 AM
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I hope you can find a good church where the teachings are based on love. Do you have a Metropolitan Community Church near you? You would find love and genuine kindness there. Look up your phone book. It is a church which was started some years ago for Gay people and others who are outcasts from society. They accept EVERYBODY and here in Australia they are very loving congregations.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258862 07/19/06 05:59 PM
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Hating what harms others is part of love. God accepts every person who serves Him. If you serve sin then you do not serve God. You become a servant of whomever you choose to obey. If you serve sin then you are a servant of Satan. If you serve righteousness then you are a servant of God. A servant always abides in the house of his master. God is in Heaven and Satan is destined for Hell. Your choice. I speak about homosexuality because it is in the forefront of debate in our society. It threatens marriage through attempts to equate homosexual relationships as equal to Holy Matrimony. I am defending God and marriage by attacking homosexuality.I do not attack homosexuals as people. I want homosexuals to repent and come to Christ.That is loving them. Wanting to accept the sin that kills them is hate.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258863 07/20/06 05:17 AM
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I felt like patience and freebubbles until I became a parent and then I got it.

It's called tough love. If I wanted to let my kids be free and happy to do whatever they wanted and accept any behavior they threw at me they would become monsters.

God is your parent, someone who loves you with everything he has. It isn't his choice to condemn millions of homosexuals. It breaks his heart when we choose to rebel and turn away from him.

He can't run after us, he is bound by purity and love. He can only guide us and give us a map home. Actually that's not true, he did do one other thing.... He sacrificed himself on the cross so it would be easier for us to come home.

I hate it when I have to discipline my kids. They cry and are miserable and I'm mad and miserable. It would be so easy to let them have the run of their lives. But then what kind of parent would I be if I didn't love them enough to have rules and consequences? God is the most amazing parent there is, I'm so glad he's my father. (sorry dad, I'm glad your my dad - I'm thankful God gave me to you here on earth.)

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258864 07/20/06 06:22 AM
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I was once a Christian myself, but now, at the age of 67, I no longer believe. Life experience has taught me otherwise. However, I accept the views of Christians and believe that every person has the right to their own beliefs.

There are many very fine Christian people, just as there are Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and Hindus.

I did not choose my sexuality any more than Heterosexuals chose theirs. I have the deepest respect for Heterosexual marriage and I believe that sex should be reserved for committed relationships. I expect others to respect my sexuality and understand that it is not 'fornication'. It is sacred to me and to many others like me. We have the right to love and be loved just like anyone else.

It is a matter of being true to ones self and being the best that one can be.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258865 07/21/06 02:10 PM
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I have something to say on this subject.

The act of homosexuality, lesbianism, bestiality, adultery, etc... are sins to God. The people who partake in these acts are sinners and will be judged as such. That is written in the bible.

Throught the ages, the devil has used the "lust of the flesh" to ensnare even the mighty. He used it against Adam, King David and King Solomon just to name a few. He is working more openly than ever before to trap the young and old alike.

He uses pornography, sex films, television and advertising mediums to include suggestive clothing. Heck, look at the shorts the girls wear now with words printed on the [censored]. They are there to draw your eyes to that spot. Have you seen these shorts made for men? No.

He uses the building up of pre-marital sex, homosexuality and prostitution. He is out to destroy the home, the sanctity of marriage and the individual.

Galatians 5:19 says "Now the works offlesh are manifest, which are these; adultrey, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance,emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkeness and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the past, that which they do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

It is impossible to break God's laws without being broken by them. Job 4:8 reads: They that plow iniquity and sow wickedness, reap the same.

Numbers 32:23 - Be sure your sin will find you out.

1Corinthians 6:9-10 says : Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effiminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

I too have been a sinner. I was an adulterer, a drug user and loved my pornography. That was all wiped clean when I accepted the Lord Jesus as my personal savior.

It's up to the individual to continue to commit sexual sins after hearing the Word of God but know that according to His word, that individual will be judged.

How are you going to feel when you stand before the Lord and every action, every thought that you ever did or had will be played on a big screen for you to see. Think about that the next time you lie down with someone of the same gender or someone who is not your wife or husband.

I pray for those who are not saved and still living in sin as I pray for myself as well. Christians are not perfect but we are forgiven. You can be too.

Forbidden friuts create many jams.

May God Bless us all.


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258866 07/22/06 01:25 PM
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If there is a God, I would be quite happy to meet him/her tomorrow, and with a clear conscience. I have not been involved in any sexual activity that I would not be happy to have any 'God' present at. It is not a sin to LOVE.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258867 07/23/06 03:52 AM
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How are you going to feel when you stand before the Lord and every action, every thought that you ever did or had will be played on a big screen for you to see.

I will be too busy proclaiming the glory of the Lord to feel shame. Shame and judgement are lies of the devil. How can one claim to be cleansed through grace if they still feel shame or cast judgement? Are we not met where we are with the love of Christ? Did he not die for all? Even in the middle of our filth? Are Christians "perfect" people? Or are we sinners that are accepted and loved through the blood of Christ Jesus shed on the cross? Where is our faith? How are we like Jesus if we are shunning those we deem as unworthy? Are we not also unworthy? Is it not written "God is Love"? All love? Or is it only the love we think is "God's love"? Who are we to determine what God thinks? Are we now more intellegent that God himself? Has he determined us as the judgers of our brothers and sisters? Or is it written that Only One will Judge, the Son of God Jesus Christ. I don't think thats me or you or anyone else... there is only one Jesus.

Soooooo

What would Jesus do? Who does Jesus love? Who are Jesus' friends? Who needs him most?

Two guys go off on a hike. One guy decides to go into the woods and the other decides to follow the road. Which one needs the flashlight more?

When did Christians become God? I know I'm not. I'm not even close. So who do I think I am to determine who God loves?


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258868 07/23/06 05:32 AM
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Well said Jenna.

Thankyou for a beautiful, loving response. You are following the example set by Jesus, and I believe that is what matters.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258869 07/23/06 01:13 PM
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First of all, Patience, God is referred to as a man in the Bible. He is called "The Father". If He wasn't, then He would not have come to earth in the form of a man and wouldn't have created Adam first. And before you say anythting, no, I don't think that God is an "actual" man except in the form of Jesus.

I never said "love" was a sin. I said deviant behavior and not living according to His word is a sin.

He punished Sodom and Gommorah and will do the same who live like they did. That is not me saying that nor am I judging, I am just going by the Word.

Jenna, I too am going boldly before the throne, because my sexual sins and errant behavior was washed away by Jesus' blood.

Fear is a demon spirit that affects everyone and if we don't renounce and rebuke and then walk it out, we are committing sin by hanging on to it.


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258870 07/24/06 02:30 PM
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Quote:
when a father in Massachusetts was arrested after refusing to allow a book promoting homosexuality to go into his home via his kindergartner's backpack,


Is this true?? Isn't Kindergarten a little early to be teaching children about sexual relationships?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258871 07/25/06 12:27 AM
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Children should NOT be learning about homosexuality in kindergarden!

They will learn of these things in their own time...Whay cant we just let kids enjoy being kids and protect their innocence for as long as we can?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258872 07/26/06 05:16 AM
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I think this has come about because of some children having two same sex parents. It is intended to let the other children understand that not everyone has a male and a female parent.

However, I do have doubts about this myself at this age. I think Kindergarten kids are too young to grasp it anyway, and it is possibly going to cause more confusion than just leaving it alone.

Anyone disagree with me? I'm willing to listen to other points of view.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258873 07/26/06 06:15 AM
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It disturbs me that this is in Elementary Schools. I heard about the Gay Lobbists pushing to get more information into the schools and whatever when they're teens and its part of sex ed. But to have material that shows anything as gay is too young and it should not be there. Kids have a hard enough time with the big questions, no need to throw another one in there unless they are actually faced with it. I mean if my kid has a friend with 2 moms or 2 dads then as a parent I would address it, but not just because.

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I just wanted to add, the other part that I see as a huge issue is that the father was arrested because he wouldn't allow the book into his house.

Is it OK for us to say no to Homosexuality coming into our homes?

As an example: (This isn't homosexuality but it does pertain to this site.)

My mother in law who believes in new age and psycics and that God is just love, there is no evil and something about us being gods.... I don't know, I try not to get into it.

Anyway -- to my point. As she's visiting this week she sees me reading my Bible and Christian Books. What does she do rents a movie for everyone to watch (including my 4 & 7 year old) about how quantum physics proves that we are gods and there is no evil and on and on. When I wouldn't allow the kids to watch it she got very offended because I should be teaching them to have an open mind. Hmm maybe next time at her house visiting I'll rent the Passion for everyone (not my kids) to watch.

Am I wrong to be offended, is it not my home, my children? I mean if they are in their late teens and want to learn about other stuff, Great I'll encourage them and will have open discussions with them. But the Truth will always be there.

PS - I read almost every night so I can fall asleep, sorry God but it does put me to sleep.

Last edited by Carennedy; 07/26/06 06:56 AM.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258875 07/26/06 12:29 PM
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Hmm..there's a lot on here that I'm not sure I can comment on all at once, so I'll start with the most recent issue about how young is too young to teach kids about homosexuality.

First off, I'm not advocating any kind of 'sex education' for young kids, homo or heterosexual, what I will be discussing is merely introducing kids to the idea that there is more than one kind of relationship that exists (nothing about the morals of it, how it is practised, etc., let's keep this simple).

I would argue that kindergarten isn't too young to teach your children that there are different kinds of people and relationships, is there an age when it is too young to teach tolerance and love for all? I understand people's concerns but the difficulty as I see it is that, as you said Carennedy, the truth will always be there and children will learn about it one way or another and often sooner rather than later. Isn't it better to teach them in a way that explains what being gay means (in terms they can understand, I'm not talking making them watch queer as folk or anything <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) rather than them picking stuff up from the playground or from those around them, which is more than likely going to be prejudicial.

A good example:
When I was about 11 or 12 the kids in my class started 'asking people out' this is like asking someone to be your boy/girlfriend - not seriously and you would more than likely have 'broken up' with them 10 minutes later. I geuss I didnt understand the rules at that age, I liked this girl, she was funny and nice and I liked her hair so I asked her out. The second I had done it I knew it was a mistake, the look on her face and the shouts from kids that had overheard. I was humiliated because of that and it was something that kids still remembered in junior high and then high school. It was something that really affected me and did me quite a lot of harm. I'm not saying that the story should be changed so I can go out with her, I know that the idea of children that young in any relationship let alone a same-sex one is (understandably) upsetting for people. My point is that if the kids had been taught about homosexuality and taught that it is just the way some people are, then maybe I wouldn't have been given the hard time that I was.

I hadn't even heard the word 'lesbian' before but I knew straight away that it must be something terrible and bad if they were throwing it at me the way they did. I didn't 'come out' until 6 or 7 years later and spent the years in between torn up inside and trying to convince myself that it was 'just a phase' or something.

The only way to bring about an enlightened society in which all people can be loved the way Jesus intended is to educate people.

Last edited by battlekitten; 07/26/06 02:03 PM.

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258876 07/26/06 02:05 PM
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While I'm here, can anyone give me any bible quotes that refer to the act of homosexual behaviour between women, or homosexuals generally; the only things I have heard had been against two men having sex or lustful behaviour generally. I'm curious to know if anyone can provide a quote that explicitly condemns homosexual relations between any two genders or women specifically.


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258877 07/27/06 01:31 AM
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Romans 1:21-27

Paul is writing about the wickedness of people. He is talking about people within society that turn away from what their hearts say is right.

21. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. Ther result was that their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they become utter fools instead. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds or animals or snakes.

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result they did vile and degrading things with each others bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made bunt not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever amen.

That is whay God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.


Basically what is being said is that homosexuality is a sign of the community's sin. People choose to turn away from God and make God into something he's not and worship that instead. Their lives became more and more sinful until they were having homosexal relations.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258878 07/27/06 01:50 AM
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Since Romans was written by Paul I feel the need to back it up with something else from the Bible. I have my own issues when it comes to Paul but I do find an example in other parts of the scriptures to back him up.

So I will give you the most famous story of God's view on Homosexuality:

Genesis 19 The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Angels and the Lord came to visit Abraham and to promise Sarah a son. After their meal the told Abraham that they were going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham asked God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if he found 10 innocent and rightous people in the town. (note: Abraham started with 50 then dealt down to 10). The angels and the Lord left Abraham and went to check out Sodom and Gomorrah.

Lot, Abrahams nephew, lived in Sodom and he met the Angels and the Lord and invited them into his home for safety. After dinner all the men of Sodom, young and old came from all over the city and surrounded the house. They shouted to Lot "Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them outside so we can have sex with them.

Lot asked them not to do such a wicked thing and offered up his daughters instead. This enraged the mob and they threatened to do worse to Lot and they broke into his home. The Angels blinded the mob and instructed Lot to get his family out of their. He had to be forcable removed by the angels for he still did not want to leave.

As he got to his destination God rained down fire and burning sulfur from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah.


There's the story, now what does it show? It shows a mob filled with hate wanting to do harm to strangers. The sign of their hearts was the desire to rape the men. The behavior reflected how far away from God they were.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258879 07/27/06 02:08 AM
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Another story that reflects what Paul is saying in Romans is in Judges Chapter 19. - paraphrased -

A levite man was going home with his concubine from her fathers house. They had left late and got into the town of Gibeah, in the land of Benjamin, when the sun was setting. They rested in the town square but no one took them in. That evening an old man came and urged them to stay at his house and not in the square. While they were in his home some wicked men rounded the house and demanded "Bring out the man who is staying with you so we can have sex with him."

The old man stepped outside and pleaded "No, my brothers, don't do such an evil thing. For this man is my guest, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this man's concubine. I will bring them out to you, an dyou can do whatever you like to them. But don't do such a shameful thing to this man.

The men wouldn't listen to the old man. But the Levite pushed his concubine out the door and the wicked men raped her and she died on the doorstep.

The result was that the other 11 tribes took up arms against the tribe of benjamin and nearly wiped them out.


Does the story sound familar?

I know its horrible and the treatment of the woman was even worse than anything I could ever imagine. Although this was so evil I can't even put it in to words, it shows how far from God these men were. Sexual perversion was the sign of their hearts for God.

I'm not saying that homosexuality means they'll be like the wicked men of these stories. The times were very different, so different we don't even know what they were like. Women were so disrespected that they would be offered up because it was better for the men to rape a women instead of a man.

These are stories in the Bible about the human condition when they choose to do whatever they want and don't care about anyone or God. God's response was to destroy them.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258880 07/27/06 02:41 AM
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So what did God's Law say? Moses in Leviticus wrote many of the laws that God passed on to him. I wanted to draw your attention to Chapter 18 specifically. This chapter outlines what sexual sin is.

In regards to homosexuality this is what it says Leviticus 18:22

"Do not practice homosexuality, it is a detestable sin"

This is all I could find in the Bible specifically on the question of homosexuality. It is a sexual sin and sexual sins are the ones that defile our bodies. It is the one sin that will lead us away from God the fastest.

The wonderful thing about God is that we all have free will and some choose this sin over saying the Lords name in vain or the sin of no idols, you get the drift.

I had a posting in January where I explained how sin effects our lives and how Jesus corrected it. I can't remember it exactly but it goes kinda like this.

We start out on a straight path to God then we make one little sin. Then another, and another on and on.

Every sin takes us off ourmark - God until we pass right by him because we are so far off course we missed our destination, just like a plane. Jesus came to correct that by taking on our sins as the final blood sacrifice and all we need to do is believe in him and ask for his forgiveness.

Each and every sin takes us a few degees off course, there is no sin worse than another to God because every sin takes you away from him.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258881 07/27/06 02:54 AM
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i dont have kids with that said... i think at that age if you taugh hetrosexuality it would be conceted child abuse of some sort because you would be adultafing kids in a sexual maner!!! if you want kids to stop makeing fun of kids with two moms or two dads then educate the parents!!! the kids arent going to ask other if they have one mom or two!!! and if a child says something about two mom then they will ask the kid to explane then a teacher or parent that is who SHOULD BE teaching there kids!!! but until parents are educated.... teaching the kids is nothing but confusing!!! not to menchion hurtful in the long run because teacher teach one way the parents teach act and live another so you have a battle between teacher and parent and who is the kid going to believe? so the young kid desides with parents help that teacher know nothing and they dont have to learn anything!!! so they get to highschool with the same addittued and what happens parents want kid to learn kid dont believe in teacher and does not think they have to learn, drops out....parent teachers wonder what happened!!!?


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258882 07/27/06 04:28 AM
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Am I the only one who has an issue with the fact that the dad was arrested because he wouldn't allow the book into his own home?

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Dont we still have the right to choose what we Read, Think Buy, teach are kids? I wonder what law they arsted him under!! the LAW #123under code 456 penalty890 states YOU MUST ALLOW THIS BOOK IN YOU HOUSE OR GO TO JAIL!!! come on now thats laughable!!! they can not arest someone for not takeing a book into his house. its like a law that says i have to open and order everythink in my junk mail!!! haha what was he realy arested for?


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258884 07/27/06 05:50 AM
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"That is whay God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved."

What I would draw ev eryone's attention to in this Biblical quote are the words:

1)"turned against the natural way"
and:

2)"And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other."

In the first case, turning against the natural would be a heterosexual person performing homosexual acts, and in the same sense, a homosexual person trying to be a heterosexual because what is 'normal' for a homosexual person is to seek a loving relationship with a person of the same sex and same sexual orientation.

In the second case, the words 'burned with lust' say it all. Lust is not love, and is wrong whether it be heterosexual or homosexual.

I am a 67yu year old lesbian and have been this way since prep school. I have never 'lusted' after anyone, but I have LOVED, deeply, sincerely and with great tenderness and a sense of the sanctity of a committed relationship.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258885 07/27/06 05:56 AM
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"There's the story, now what does it show? It shows a mob filled with hate wanting to do harm to strangers. The sign of their hearts was the desire to rape the men. The behavior reflected how far away from God they were."

Yes. The great sin that was punished here was the crime against hospitality not sex. Lot was just as bad by offering his poor daughters to be violated.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258886 07/27/06 06:05 AM
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"While they were in his home some wicked men rounded the house and demanded "Bring out the man who is staying with you so we can have sex with him."

The old man stepped outside and pleaded "No, my brothers, don't do such an evil thing. For this man is my guest, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this man's concubine. I will bring them out to you, an dyou can do whatever you like to them. But don't do such a shameful thing to this man.

The men wouldn't listen to the old man. But the Levite pushed his concubine out the door and the wicked men raped her and she died on the doorstep."

Same thing here. The violation of the law of hospitality as it was understood by those people. Again, a woman was put through hell and died because of this lack of respect for guests, and for women in general.

Can't you see that this isn't about sex, Homosexual OR Heterosexual,but about the lack of respect? (besides, these wicked men WEREN'T Homosexual because they raped women. Most Homosexual men find sex with a woman either impossible or at least, extremely distasteful.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258887 07/27/06 06:19 AM
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"Do not practice homosexuality, it is a detestable sin"

The King James version says it this way (before alterations were made to the Bible to suit modern views of thought):

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind"

Heterosexual people were certainly being addressed here. People who were indulging in bestial practices as well - if you read on... It was 'sex with anything' out of the lust for sex alone.

If Homosexual people were being addressed as well, then it no doubt had something to do with the fact that there was a great need at this time to increase the population and anything which might interfere with that would be frowned upon. It is a cultural thing of the time. We are no longer living over 1000 years BC.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258888 07/27/06 06:23 AM
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How about instead of looking at what Christianity says specifically about Homosexuality, maybe we should be asking what does the Bible say about Sex period.

OK -- I've done enough damage to this forum, someone else's turn to come up with what is sex, why sex and what does God say is good about it?

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"Am I the only one who has an issue with the fact that the dad was arrested because he wouldn't allow the book into his own home?"

No. That was a violation of a father's rights to decide what his child should and should not read. Ridiculous! Next thing they'll be arresting people for choosing what their kids watch on TV!


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258890 07/27/06 06:31 AM
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"OK -- I've done enough damage to this forum, someone else's turn to come up with what is sex, why sex and what does God say is good about it?"

You haven't done any damage to this forum my friend. You have answered questions that were asked, and you have promoted honest debate. There's nothing wrong with that.

I commend you for the research you have gone to the trouble to put into this subject.

Sex should be something sacred. I believe that this is what the Bible is trying to show us.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258891 07/27/06 09:43 AM
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Exactly Patience, I'm glad Carennedy posted those quotes, hell I asked for them. And nice answers Patience, I'm with you in that I believe that bible was trying to teach us to respect sex and each other. And if anyone believes those parts of the bible are about not being lustful generally, or using our bodies in an 'impure' way, outside of matrimony, then I have no problem with that, so long as they don't use that to attack gay people without throwing the same attacks at promiscuous straight people. I know you weren't attacking Carennedy, in fact your arguements were well balanced and thoughtful, thankyou. I just get a bit defensive because I have had a lot of people attack me (verbally) over the years (and given that I'm only 23, that's saying something!).

I also believe it was wrong to arrest the man who wouldn't let the book into his house, you can't force people to change and he has rights to do what he wants in his own house.

I know most of you are against me on this one but I still believe in educating children about different ways of life. I'm not saying go out of your way and make a big fuss about it, but maybe include examples of it in stories or in math problems, or whatever, the same way that they already do with different races. Just show kids that it is a normal way of life, I know not everyone agrees that it is, but I stand by it. I think it's a lot harder ot reverse prejudice than to instill it; if a person wants to believe something is wrong (for whatever reason) they will sooner or later, however if someone has no particular reason for believing something is wrong, surely it's better to teach them at an early age about tolerance, rather than have to try and teach them when they are older and likely to be stuck in their ways of thinking.

I don't know if that made much sense, but this is something I feel strongly about for personal reasons so sometimes I don't argue it very articulately. Basically what I'm saying is teach tolerance to all and the earlier the better on that front.

Last edited by battlekitten; 07/27/06 03:02 PM.

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258892 07/27/06 04:22 PM
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Patience,

You are right that sex is sacred and the Bible does teach that it is wonderful. My church did a 3 week series on what God says about Sex. Homosexuality wasn't part of it. They talked about what the Bible says about Sex in marriage, sex outside of marriage, pornography. They added Cyber sex although the Bible didn't say anything directly about the internet there was lots on lust to back up why it was wrong.

In fact here are the three sermons on sex, if your interested in what the Bible says about sex.

http://www.rockpointe.ca/family/messages/sermons/sheets

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258893 08/05/06 09:01 PM
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Quote:
If your God would condemn millions of Homosexual people to lives without love and companionship, then I certainly wouldn't want any part of such a deity. I suppose that is why I am not a Christian and never will be.


Oh please do not think that God would do this. He never would. He wants you to have a life full of love, companionship and happiness. Like any father he only wants the best for his children.

Love, companionship and happiness are not about sexual relationships. Sexual relationships are about biology not Love. You can love someone and have a close relationship with them without having sex with them.

God wants your life to be filled with many loving relationshps. There are many different types of love in the Bible, sexual love is only one and not even the top one.

1 John 4:7-8 was made into a children's christian song that I listened to over and over and it was on Agape Love, the best love you can have.

"Beloved, Love is of God for anyone who loveth is born of God, knoweth God, He that Loveth not, Knoweth not God for God is Love."

The New Living Translation says:
"Dear Friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is born of God and knows God. But anyone who does not love does not know God - for God is love. Verses 9-10 continue to say "God showed how much he loved us by sending his only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him. This is real love. It is not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.

Please don't confuse Sex with Love. Too many do this and look at our world because of it. There are more songs about heart break then about love, because we don't understand love.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258894 08/07/06 11:28 AM
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I appreciate your view, Carennedy BUT:

"You can love someone and have a close relationship with them without having sex with them."

NOT WHEN YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH THEM! How many heterosexuals fall in love, marry, and choose not to have an intimate relationship with their partner? None that I know of and I've lived a long time! (almost 68 years!)

Yes, there are many different kinds of love, and I can have a platonic love for friends, but I cannot have an intimate relationship with the one who is my partner without expressing that love in the way that heterosexuals express their love for their spouses. To me, sex alone is something that one indulges in WITHOUT love, and that is quite impossible for me. To me, expressing love intimately is part of the beauty and bonding of an intimate relationship with someone I choose to spend my life with - to love and to cherish, for better or for worse.

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258895 08/07/06 11:32 AM
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To expect people in same sex relationships to live celibate lives because of what some god is believed to have said is wicked and inhuman and, as I said, I want no part of such a diety. Do you have the slightest idea what agony that would be? Or perhaps you've never been in love?


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258896 08/08/06 01:34 AM
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Been in love and happily married thanks.

The sex isn't why I love him and he complains that it is only once a month.... I could do without that too sometimes. Sex is sex it's not love. Too many young girls are confused on this issue and their hearts get broken.

The thing is patience, this is a Christian forum, for people who believe in God and the Holy Bible as his word. It is a choice for all whether or not you follow him or your own desires. It matters little to us what you decide, but it does matter greatly to God because he loves you and wants to be a part of your life now and in the hereafter.

No one here is any better than anyone else in this world, we are all sinners. Some of us have choosen to have our sins forgiven by following the Trinity. In doing so I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and I sin less because of it. I'm driven to spread the word of God and learn more about it. I'm inspired to give money to those who ask me and to those that don't. To hear someone use the name of God as a curse now grates on me, where before it would tumble out of my mouth without thought. I don't enjoy getting drunk whereas before it was normal part of my week. Sex now is not a large part of my relationship, before it was all my many relationships had.

The Holy Spirit has changed me, the blood of Jesus has cleansed me, and God has redeemed me. Even with that I still sin when I am thinking only of myself.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258897 08/08/06 10:48 AM
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OK. Maybe we need to define what we mean by sex.

For me,I tend to associate the word 'sex' with sexual relations without love. It's 'just sex'!

When I speak of an intimate, physical relationship between two people who love eachother and are in a committed relationship, I prefer to refer to this physical expression as 'making love'. It is a blending of two bodies, hearts and souls in the closest means available to us. it is something sacred and beautiful. It IS LOVE in it's most intimate form of expression. It is tender, caring, gentle and with full consideration for the other person. It is not about personal gratification. It is sharing of one's self with the other in a way that can only be described as mutual 'giving' of love. It can also be fun, pleasure, delight and ecstasy. It is the way one can become 'one' with the other.

Anything less than that is 'just sex'. Just a 'romp'. Without the tender feelings of mutual love and respect, it is just lust.

I have been blessed in knowing the tenderness and 'oneness' of 'making love' in it's highest form, and to say that this is not love, is to insult the God you believe in who created it.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258898 08/13/06 05:06 AM
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Homosexuality is an abomination before God. Read Leviticus


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258899 08/13/06 10:11 AM
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Leviticus 18:22

amadeus1220 - I have already replied to this quote. If you go to my last post on page 3, you can read it.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258900 08/15/06 12:28 AM
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Ok I have to step in here. I agree that there is a big differnce between Sex with love and sex with lust wether it be two men or women or a man and a women or at lest there should be a BIG DIFFERNCE!!! I get your point Patience. I also think there are bigger fish to fry then issuses on homosexuals but sence im here... I dont think homosexuality is any bigger sin then any other!!! being gay does not buy your ticket to hell any more or less then lying or disobaying you parents!!! As long as you ask God to forgive you and Ask Jesus in to your heart then the bible says your saved just like every other person on the planet!!! As far as wither homosexuality is a sin or not.... I'll ask God when i get there and until then Ill let God be God and stick to my believe of do not jugde minnor details about people!!!

sorry if this offence anyone but why are we debating an issuse that offouvely we dont agree on? why try to change someone with fact and fiction and opnoines? why not learn to understand where the other one is coming from instead of debating?


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258901 08/30/06 02:49 AM
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Amen emaster101.

It is our vascillating and not wishing to "condemn wrong" that gets us into so much trouble! I love others as Christ commands. We love them, but not their sin. Revelations is clear about how God views those who choose not to be "black and white" - He will spew those out of his mouth who are lukewarm. Either it is wrong, or it is right. There can be no in between when choosing God. He is faithful and just. He is righteous. He is the judge of persons. Why walk the line. His character is consistent throughout the Bible. It does not change simply because someone "doesn't agree" or wants to please everyone - and yet on our day before Him - who of these you have tried to please, and not offend or prove yourself 'ok with them' will be standing next to you?


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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258902 08/30/06 03:08 AM
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Do we all know what god wants?
Every religion has got its own ideas about god.
are they all true?
I think that we should pray and seek answers from god directly.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258903 08/30/06 01:50 PM
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The Bible tells us what God wants, he's very clear.

We are not God and what is sin is not up for debate. It is not a debate because God has already told us what is sin and how to get into heaven. Anyone who thinks they know better than God about how to get into his house is delusional.

Unlike today's soceity God holds us accountable for our actions and the consequenses are clearly stated. As any child we can choose to do what we want or what our Father wants. Our Father only has our best interest at heart and knows more than we do. Yet as rebellious children we continue to defy him, debate with him, and tell him we know better.

I realize that this particular sin is being used by hate mongers to attack a certain set of people. These actions are not of God and will be judged accordingly as well. For it is a sin to hate your fellow man.

Just a thought: The worst sin we can do is use the name of the Lord in vain. Yet I don't see anyone out there condeming people or picketing against it.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258904 09/06/06 02:21 PM
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Quote:
The worst sin we can do is use the name of the Lord in vain. Yet I don't see anyone out there condeming people or picketing against it.


A very good point, this is what annoys me about most people attacking homosexuality; they fail to apply the same standards to practices/behaviours that are deemed to be equally or more wrong by the bible.

One point I will raise against Carennedy's last post though is that what we know about the God's rule come from the bible, which has been translated by many different generations and cultures and the message you take from it will more often than not depend on how you approach it. For a very good (and pertinent) example of this see http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm#ngpa , which discuses different translations of Leviticus 18:22.

How can you be sure that the message you take fromt he bible is the one god intended, especially if it is different from others who have read the same text as you?


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258905 09/06/06 06:40 PM
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that brings??? if the bible only condemes men for homo acts because women are inferior and therefore its ok for them, and women are no longer concerted inferior to men, then shouldnt it be ok for any one to have a commetted relationship with anyone because now we are equal? Or would this mean men have fallin to the inferior place equal to women? so we what? no one has sex with no one and we live purdishly everafter in the land of superiority!!! good times!!! lol just thought yall needed a laugh!!!


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258906 09/07/06 03:47 AM
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Thanks Battlekitten for posting this link. It clarifies my earlier points made regarding translations.

We need to be very careful in saying what God does and does not say. If indeed the God of the Bible exists, those of us who want to please him may well be doing him a great injustice!

Thank you!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258907 09/07/06 04:13 AM
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Our pastor pointed out to us, in one of his sermons, that all of the "shalt nots, and thou shalt (s)" would be largely ornamental is those of us that are already Christians spent more of our time spreading the Word about Jesus Christ, and spent less of our time trying to be the morals police.

When a person truly accepts the Lord into his/her life and heart, then there is this overwhelming feeling of wanting to do "right". I'm not saying Christians are flawless (beleive me, I've still got plenty of flaws to take before the Lord come judgement day! <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue2.gif" alt="" /> ). But usually within about ten seconds, or less, of doing something wrong - I realize it, and don't feel at peace until I've rectified it.

So, if as Christians, we are right about homosexuality being wrong - then the better bet would be to try to lead these people to Christ - and let them make the decision of whether it is an appropriate lifestyle. Because, other the God Himself, I think only the people involved are the ones who have the right to make that kind of judgement.

I know I certainly don't - I don't have the wisdom of Solomon, I don't even have the wisdom of my great-grandmother! <img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258908 09/08/06 02:58 AM
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One of the things that I've learned from my walk as a Christian is that Christians are flawed people. We're not perfect, just saved.There aren't any of us who can stand up and declare what is right or wrong for anyone else. Even though it states that TO GOD homosexuality is an abomination, it is in GOD'S perfect view, not mine. I always recall what Jesus taught, to look at my own life and only judge myself according to God's Word; to focus not on the splinter in my brothers eye, but the plank in my own. I am only responsible for my own life. The ONLY responsiblity I have to others is to tell them about the forgiveness and grace available to them through a relationship with Christ. I demonstrate that saving grace by utilizing it in my approach to others. I'm not called to shun or judge another based on the sins in their lives. I have my own sins to worry about. Love the sinner hate the sin doesn't mean that a whole section of people are off limits to myl ove and compassion based solely on their sins. If that was the case I could never leave my house and I could never lobve myself.

I think God's Word in the Bible and in my heart are the most compelling words ever read. They make me think, they make me change, they make me delve deeper into my own heart than I have ever gone before. I always end up at love. God is love and that love knows no boundaries. He may not be able to be in the presence of my sins, but His love never leaves me and I can always turn around.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258909 09/08/06 04:30 AM
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I am new to the forum and find the conversation regarding homosexuality and Christianity interesting.

Why do you guys think God destroyed Sodom with fire and brimstone?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258910 09/08/06 09:57 AM
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You tell me, find me a quote that tells you that God destroyed these cities because of the sin of homosexuality. To give you a start it should be around Genesis 19, although you might be looking for some time.


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258911 09/08/06 10:16 AM
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QUOTES ARE FROM THE NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

The cities were destroyed because they were not even 10 innocent people in them.

The Lord told Abraham in Genesis 18:20 that, "I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are extremely evil, and that everything they do is wicked."

Abraham bartered with the Lord to save the city if he found 10 innocent people.

While there the Lord was eating at Lots house when "All the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. They souted to Lot,"Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out so we can have sex with them. Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. 'Please, my brothers,' he begged 'don't do such a wicked thing. Look I have two virgin daughters. Do with them as you wish, but leave these men alone, for they are under my protection.'

At this point Lot is forcably removed from the city and the city is destroyed.

It wasn't destroyed just because the men wanted to have sex with the men but because they did such sinful things. The city was so full of sin that God destroyed it.

Throughout the Old Testement Prophets accused the Isrealites that God viewed them as worse then Sodom and Gomorah, not because they were all homosexuals but because they were sinful and only cared about themselves.

Homosexuality was one of many of the sins of Sodom and Gomorah not the only sin.

Selfishness is the basis of all sin in the world. We are born selfish, anyone with a newborn recognizes this. It is our choices to be selfless and sacrificial that are sinless. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty selfish most of the time.

Last edited by Carennedy; 09/09/06 03:34 PM.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258912 09/08/06 10:44 AM
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Whilst I agree with most of what you have written, I would like to point out that the direct translation of Genesis 19:5 is 'bring them out so that we may know them'. Although the word 'know' is often used in the bible to mean a sexual act, in this case the translation comes from the hebrew word 'yadha', which is used meaning 'to engage in coitus with' 10 times in the bible but is used to mean 'to become acquainted with 924 times in the bible. If you were a betting person, that would be 100-1 odds that the translation should mean to become acquianted with. Of course you could argue that it is about the context of the passage and is meaning to imply that the men of the city are sinful, in which case I would like to refer you to a section of text from here:

Lot was a ger, a sojourner, a resident alien in Sodom. He had certain civic obligations in return for the protection which the city offered him, and there are indications that he was unpopular in the city. He did not have a right to open his house to foreigners, and the citizens of Sodom were merely demanding to see the credentials of these two foreigners, that is, to "know" whence they came and their intentions. Lot had to refuse, however, because he himself was under the obligations of the Jewish code of hospitality to his guests. He offered the Sodomites his daughters as the first appeasement that came to his mind, not as a heterosexual substitute for a homosexual demand. The cities were they destroyed for not recognizing the obligations of hospitality, and the whole story is a moral allegory on the dire effects of inhospitality.

I hope I don't appear aggressive Carrennedy, I agree with the rest of what you said and I have always found your comments to be balanced and fair; I believe that you are the kind of Christian that more should aspire to be. I just wanted to point out to those that do use the story of sodom and gomorrah as anti-gay rhetoric that actually there's more evidence against that fact that the two cities were destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality than there is for.


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258913 09/08/06 06:59 PM
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Rom 1:21-27
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

According to this passage there were people who were rebelling against God and didn't even want to know Him and so He gave them up to "vile affections" which included homosexuality. It also teaches the homosexuality is against nature.

Doesn't this seem to indicate that homosexuality and similar sins are in direct rebellion to God and His will?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258914 09/09/06 02:45 AM
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Most people think they know what God thinks of homosexuality because of a few mistranslated or misinterpreted passages in the Bible and that's what they've been taught since they were little kids in Sunday school.

I found an eye-opening article that actually makes a lot of sense if you're someone who is willing to think about it logically.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibi.htm

I mean, does it really make sense that God would create something that He would condemn (and yes, homosexuality is proven to be a biological predisposition, not a choice)?

I guess being someone who is spiritual but not religious and also a scientitist just gives me a completely different perspective on the subject. I've known several homosexuals and they're just normal people who just what to live their lives like everyone else. They didn't ask to be gay, they just were, and I has always rubbed me the wrong way for other people I've know to speak badly of them in the name of Christianity.


Michele

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258915 09/09/06 04:59 AM
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Michellem,

It is an interesting article, and it does make me go back to what I said before - I don't have the right to judge whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong. That is a moral issue that I am going to leave between the individual and God.

It is so much more important that people come to know God and His Son, Jesus - and they are not going to want to do that if all they ever hear is how He detests what their lifestyle is.

I know people are going to scream at me that someone has to admit that they have sin in their life before they can come to know God (ABC - Admit sin, Believe in Christ, Confess & repent). But I believe that the "admitting sin" part is the general part - saying "yes there is sin in my life that is separating me from God, and I want to get rid of it". I believe the "confessing and repenting" is when we get down to the specifics - because that is when we have already let Jesus inot our hearts and He is showing us what our sins are, and then we are working, by Him, to repent of those sins. Because many times we are in such darkness - that we don't even realize that something that we are doing is wrong! (Think of 3rd world countries that actually still worship idols of gods.)

Anyway - this is just my opinion, luckily it is hard to stone me through an internet connection! <img src="/images/graemlins/rolling.gif" alt="" />


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258916 09/09/06 06:26 AM
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Does any religion support homosexuality?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258917 09/09/06 11:28 AM
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Many branches of different religions accept it as normal, or accept that people should be allowed to follow their own sexuality.

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258918 09/09/06 03:36 PM
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One such Christian Denomination is the Methodists, or the United Church.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258919 09/09/06 03:42 PM
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There is way more on hetrosexual sex than there is on homosexual sex in the Bible.

The Bible glorifies sex between a husband and a wife. It does not glorify any other type of union and as per other posts I have quoted, God detests any other type of union.

However that said, there are instances where he has used women in non marital relationships to make other more important points about the human spirit.

If God condoned homosexual acts he would have glorified it, just as he does with sex in marriage. If he condoned homosexual acts he would have used them as a way to show that other issues were more important, ie that of forgiveness and responsibility.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258920 09/09/06 03:45 PM
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Quote:
I hope I don't appear aggressive Carrennedy, I agree with the rest of what you said and I have always found your comments to be balanced and fair; I believe that you are the kind of Christian that more should aspire to be. I just wanted to point out to those that do use the story of sodom and gomorrah as anti-gay rhetoric that actually there's more evidence against that fact that the two cities were destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality than there is for.


I do not find offense with anything you say or find you to be aggressive, I do find you to be knowledgeable on the topic.

Thank you for your compliment, it is the best thing that I could ever hear about myself, as a Christian who strives to reflect Christ in this world.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258921 09/10/06 02:32 AM
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I respect your views Carennedy, but this:

"God detests any other type of union."

Oh boy! What a cruel God! One who gives with one hand and takes away with the other - who creates people in a particular way, then tells them he detests them for being what they are, through no fault of their own. I'd avoid that God like poison!

No thanks, I don't want to know that God or have any part of him. I have more compassion than that in my little finger.

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258922 09/10/06 02:46 AM
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I didn't say God detests you, I said the union not the person. He loves us all.

If my children constantly lied to me over and over, I'd detest the lies but I'd still love them. God is like our Farther, he loves us, wants us to draw close to him. However, like selfish children we look to ourselves and ignore his advice and rules. Then wonder why he doesn't love us. He does, it's our choices and behaviors he doesn't.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258923 09/10/06 02:52 AM
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Patience to be honest I felt just as you do. For years I didn't get it and I couldn't figure out how a God who supposidly loved us had no compassion and wasn't fair.

When I had children I finally got it. When I had to discipline my child, I understood. When I truly looked into my heart to figure out who I was I saw that my choices and attitude was the problem, not God.

It wasn't until I decided to find out what I believed in order to find a church that I fit and maybe to find the religion that I believed in that I found God. I started to read his book and I heard him and felt his presence.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258924 09/10/06 04:12 AM
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Dear Carennedy,
I hear what you are saying. But didn't Jesus say 'who is not for me is against me'

If the God you believe in detests the love my partner and I shared in Union, then he detests what is sacred to me, and that includes me. If God is against any loving, intimate relationship I have, thenI take that very personally. If he says it is a sin, then I take that very personally.

I was once a devout Christian. I was actually a lay preacher and preparing for ordination. It was this attitude of the Christian Religion as a whole which drove me away. I now lean towards Buddhism, which accepts me lovingly and as I am, including my sexuality and any same sex union that I enter into. I will never return to Christianity as long as it tells me that my love is sinful and that God detests and denies my right to live and love the person who loves me in the same way. It appears that God has double standards for 'love'. If it's betweena man and a woman, it's OK with him, but if not, then the relationship is damned.

We have discussed the issue about sex and love before, so I won't repeat it here, except to say that Homosexuals love their partners as much as Heterosexuals do. Many Homosexual relationships that I know of have lasted longer than many Heterosexual ones and still continue to last because they are based on mutual love.

That God regards such loving relationships as 'detestable' is, in itself, detestable.

This isn't a loving parent, it's a dictator. Just think about it! Is this loving? Is it just? Is it compassionate? Is it like Jesus? Not to me anyway. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus condemn same sex love. Surely if it was such a sin, he would have mentioned it? Why didn't he?


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258925 09/10/06 08:51 PM
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Remember it is also a sin if a man and women are in a relationship outside of marriage.

I do acknowledge your point that Jesus did not mention it, it was Paul.

As I wrote previously, there is little on the subject in the Bible and it is not the worst thing you can do sinwise, as God also detests liers and think about how many are running around down here.

The worst thing you can do is use the name of the Lord in vain, yet I saw a Global TV billboard with the words "Oh my God dad, what did you do?"

Another of the top bad ones are having other idols and what people today forget is that means worshiping a thing rather than God. For example, money, celebrities, material possessions. It also means loving something more than God, For example, your home, your car, your prized possession.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258926 09/10/06 09:03 PM
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Quote:


The worst thing you can do is use the name of the Lord in vain, yet I saw a Global TV billboard with the words "Oh my God dad, what did you do?"


I have read this comment before but I just cant help myself anymore.I have to say I disagree strongley that "its the worst sin one can do"

Okay lets think logically here.Lets say I bang my thumb with a hammer and I yell out "god damm it!" ( along with some other colourful language) would that be worse than lets say someone raping a six year old girl annaly while holding her head under water resulting in her death? There is no doubting what is the worse sine here.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258927 09/11/06 01:30 AM
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It is the 3rd of the 10 Commandments

Exodus 20 verse 7

Do not misuse the name of the Lord your God. The Lord will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.

Patience,

As a lay person you would have known so much about God. I am sad that fawed Christians provided you such a terrible example of who God is.

I'll add more later ... kids in bath and dinner in oven.... Life of a working mother never ends....

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258928 09/11/06 04:16 AM
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Sorry this has to be quick.....

Blasphemy is to dishonour or use abusive language to or about God and the things that are sacred.

There are a couple of verses I want to bring your attention to, the rest you can check if you are interested.

Jesus took the third commandment and expanded it to anything that was sacred.

Mathew 5:34

Jesus said: "Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King."


Luke 12:8-10

Jesus said: "And I assure you of this: If anyone acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I, the Son of Man, will openly acknowledge that person in the presence of God's Angels. But if anyone denies me here on earth, I will deny that person before God's angels. Yet those who speak against the Son of Man may be forgiven but anyone who blasphemiees against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

For more passages if you are interested to study up on this:

Exodus 3:5-6
Exodus 22:28
Leviticus 24:14
2 Samuel 12:14
Psalms 99:3
Isaih 5:8-25
Matthew 12:31-32
Matthew 6:9
Mark 3:23-29
Mark 6:22-23
Mark 7:20-23
Acts 6:11
Acts 3:16
Eph 5:4

I will leave you with this verse:

John upon talking with Jesus received a vision and this is what he wrote:

And now in my vision I saw a beast rising up out of the sea. It had seven heads and ten horns, with ten crowns on its horns. And written on each head were names that blasphemed God...... The beast was allowed to speak great blasphmies against God. And he was given authority to do what he wanted for forty-two months. And he spoke terrible words of blasphemy against God, slandering his name and all who live in heaven, who are his temple.

Revelation 13:1 & 5-7

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258929 09/11/06 04:28 AM
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Quote:
would that be worse than lets say someone raping a six year old girl annaly while holding her head under water resulting in her death? There is no doubting what is the worse sine here.


I agree this is a terrible sin that would be punishable by the fires of Hell, sorta speak.

I have to admit that I am very dismayed that there is not a law or commandment that says do not rape. There is lots said in the Bible about how Women are to be treated etc.

This is a huge contention with me and I struggle with it. I do not understand how a loving God could allow women to have such little standing in the church. I realize that the Christian church gave more but it was not enough. That's a whole other thread going on in the Paul who was he topic if your interested.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258930 09/12/06 02:51 PM
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Patience,

I have a personal question, you do not have to answer if you do not want to.

But do you believe in God anymore at all? Or what is that you do believe?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258931 09/13/06 05:53 AM
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Carennedy, I don't mind answering that question, as far as I am able.

I don't believe now in the God of the Bible, but I am open regarding the nature of God. I believe that there is 'something' which is at the source of all creation. Possibly something quite impersonal, like an energy source, some spirit energy which is in all things and to which all things return.

I don't really know, in fact, I tell people that the only thing I 'know' is that I know very little!

I believe that all life is sacred, and I feel oneness with all life. All things living are a part of me and I am a part of all things. I see all life forms as my brothers and sisters.

I strive to become as perfect as I can in love. I believe that if I show love to even one small creature, that all life somehow benefits from that because we are all one.

That is the best I can explain it!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258932 09/13/06 02:58 PM
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Do you believe that there is evil, that there is a Satan that temps us?

How does this explain people like hitler?

So is there any consequences whether you do bad? or Basically you can do anything because we all end up as energy?


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258933 09/13/06 09:16 PM
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Patience I could have written your post myself <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You described in words exactley how I feel.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258934 09/14/06 03:12 AM
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I do believe that there is evil, but I believe it exists in the heart and mind of Humanity. I don't believe in satan or devils. I see evil as the creation of people. It is a choice we all have, to do evil things or to do good things and be loving.

I believe that what goes around comes around. A natural law of like attracts like, so people who choose evil will have it come back to them in some form. The law of cause and effect.

Bad things happen in this world because it is an imperfect world, populated by imperfect people. i do not believe there is a god or satan who sends hurricanes and earthquakes. They happen. Likewise, there is no 'external' evil which makes people do murder, become Hitlers, sexually abuse children. It is people who do this and we are all responsible for our own actions and choices.

If the planet lost its balance, the whole Earth would be destroyed. When humans lose their balance, they destroy themselves and others. That is how I see it. Evil is the flipside of good. They co-exist. We have both within us, and we have free choice.

I think it is about the degree of awareness that we have. How we learn from life's lessons, and whether we grow, or stagnate. I see the religions of the world as guides to how to become aware, and how to make right choices. Prophets and saints and other good people come to teach us and show us the way. We learn by their example.

I hope that explains what I believe.

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258935 09/14/06 04:27 AM
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The devil is real. He is the one who is telling you that he doesn't exist... it's the greatest lie of all!! He whispers in our ear that there is no way! With all of our enlightenment and intelligence, how could there be this being who moves on the breath and manipulates us beyond our comprehension??!! What poppycock!!! Your master of your own domain after all!!

Read this book review for God's Assasins...
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art35691.asp

this book helped me to know my enemy more and how deceptive he really is... How the devil sees us will open your eyes to reality. Also, the movie "The Devils Advocate" is great. the one with Al Pacino as the devil. The level of manipulation and deception, the way he plays with Keanuu Reeves mind... it's good too.

You should always know you enemy. How else can you fight?

This is off the topic of Christians and Homosexuality...


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258936 09/14/06 05:06 AM
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Sorry, but I do not accept this. No one is whispering in my ear and I don't believe in boogey-man stories. I have no 'unseen enemy'. The only evil there is, in my experience, is what walks on two legs. If there is an entity whispering in my ear, then I'm afraid I'm not listening and "it' has no power over me. You only give power to the things you believe in.

I think that people who believe in the devil are slaves to fear and superstition.

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258937 09/14/06 06:16 AM
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Chelle - Marriage Editor Offline OP
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Quote:
Quote:
would that be worse than lets say someone raping a six year old girl annaly while holding her head under water resulting in her death? There is no doubting what is the worse sine here.


I agree this is a terrible sin that would be punishable by the fires of Hell, sorta speak.

I have to admit that I am very dismayed that there is not a law or commandment that says do not rape. There is lots said in the Bible about how Women are to be treated etc.

This is a huge contention with me and I struggle with it. I do not understand how a loving God could allow women to have such little standing in the church. I realize that the Christian church gave more but it was not enough. That's a whole other thread going on in the Paul who was he topic if your interested.


OK, this is kind of the real topic of the thread, but I wanted to address this anyway.

I think rape would be covered under adultery - if we want to get technical here.

And as far as doing anything to harm a child. Jesus states several times that He has a special concern for children, and that it would be better for someone to
have a millstone around his neck and drown in the sea" than to harm a little one or lead them into sin. So I would think that covers anything done to hurt a child, whether it is stated in the 10 commandments or not. IMO

Also, as far as the 10 commandments go - I am not so certain they are listed in order of importance (other than the 1st one) as that they are just listed. After all, it is impossible to make a list without putting them in some order and numbering them.

Jesus only states 1 commendment as being "great", so that leads me to believe all the rest are equal in importance.

[color:"blue"]34�But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36�Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?� 37And he said to him,[/color][color:"red"] �You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.�[/color] Matthew 22:34 - 40


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258938 09/14/06 07:37 AM
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I believe that homosexuality is as normal as being left-handed. The bible was written by men who were writing down their perception of god, which probably has nothing nothing to do with the actual deity! The god of the OT comes over as a very unpleasant creature indeed imo.


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258939 09/14/06 01:55 PM
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The Lord God made us each and every one. I'm willing to bet that on the higher level good deeds count as a plus, and making a choice to judge another as inferior counts as a minus in coming to know God's love - for "God is Love and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." <img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Susan Kramer; 09/14/06 01:56 PM.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258940 09/14/06 03:29 PM
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God might have kicked off evolution but there is no evidence that God created each and everyone of us! In fact if God sends babies to people, as some fundies believe, then the deity is crazy as he sends them to people indiscriminately, regardless of whether they will be cared for or abused.


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258941 09/14/06 05:35 PM
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In the Bible there is a verse 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". For someone to take this verse at literal it would mean that we once existed in some other plane and the tendencies we are born to must not just be by chance.

All denomintations of Christianity state that all "life is precious". But then some say, publically (as an example that nutty Fred Phelps and his group out of Kansas) that homosexuals deserve the death penalty and that AIDS is a judgement from God. So, are lives precious or only just CERTAIN lives that believe as you do?

Or they say "Well people chooose to be gay, they cannot be born that way because God doesn't make mistakes". My opinion is that maybe some people do choose to be that way, maybe after many bad relationship experiences with member of the opposite sex. Or from being incarcerated for long periods of time. But I am sure the majority do not "choose" to be that way.

How do YOU change what attracts you to another person? Can you change from being straight to being gay? Or the things you notice first about someone that attracts you?

It doens't make any sense to me to say that God creates all life then to say God finds the things he creates to be "abominable" (to quote what the Bible says about homosexuality).


"All of us invent ourselves. Some of us just have more imagination than others."


Cher
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258942 09/14/06 06:11 PM
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The fundies have an answer for everything however ludicrous it is. I was spiritually abused but the stinking penetecostal church I was forced to attend as a child, so have no love for them or their version of god!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258943 09/14/06 07:38 PM
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I've learned this in my 44 years, if someone is telling you that "God told me to do this", or "I know in my heart that this is what God wants me to do", or even "X religion is the ONLY right way" and my personal favorite, "You are going to go to Hell for that", RUN as QUICKLY as you can in the other direction!

Also, has anyone else noticed that those preachers who are MOST vicious in speaking out against homosexuality are the ones who are usually "in the closet" so to speak? Me thinks they doth protest a bit to much.

Had to tell you loveapple, your "signature" is great. I'm caring for a child with disabilites and sometimes people just see his problems, and not his beautiful spirit.

Last edited by MoonShadows; 09/14/06 07:42 PM.

"All of us invent ourselves. Some of us just have more imagination than others."


Cher
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258944 09/14/06 07:53 PM
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Our adopted son (21) has Down's Syndrome, he is agreat joy and blessing to us even though he is severely disabled.


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258945 09/14/06 07:54 PM
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Quote:
I believe that homosexuality is as normal as being left-handed.


Does being a left handed lesbian make you more normal than everyone else? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Jan <img src="/images/graemlins/fish.gif" alt="" />


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258946 09/14/06 08:40 PM
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lol Jan <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for the laugh..Well yes I guess that makes you more than normal then <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriousley though...I going to quote what you did and just say yep I agree with that because its true. Geez sometimes I think we are still stuck in the middle ages.
We still have a long way to go.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258947 09/14/06 09:05 PM
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Our "Thing to be thankful" for today! That it is NOT the Middle Ages anymore or alot of us would not be here posting because we would have been burned at the stake for our views I am sure.

Ah, the good old days.

Last edited by MoonShadows; 09/14/06 09:07 PM.

"All of us invent ourselves. Some of us just have more imagination than others."


Cher
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258948 09/14/06 09:21 PM
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True...

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258949 09/14/06 10:45 PM
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Yes, we would have burned at the stake even as recently as early America, the days of Cotton Mather and Jonathan Edwards, both evil, vile men. (Please note the anagram.) But we are burned at other stakes today and those can be just as hot as the long ago burnings. We are the only minority left to whom it OK to say, "Die, faggot!" or "You can't teach my child, you lesbo dyke!" "You are all abominations!" "We were attacked by Al Queda because of you!" "Katrina destroyed New Orleans because of you!"

We used to joke when I was in a helping profession....if we all stayed home for just one day, every school, library, hospital, government office, university and more would have to close. But now 30 long and street fighting years later, we still can be degraded, demeaned by those calling themselves religious, especially by those calling themselves religious, because it is their self proclaimed duty!

Ain't PC to call any other minority by their derogatory names, but hey, here we are....have at it. And please do it in public, in the newspapers, especially in the churches, in the halls of goverment. Use it as a campaign slogan.

And teach your children well. They learn hatred quickly.


What a shame.

Jan, who doesn't mind straights as long as they don't act that way in public


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258950 09/15/06 12:11 AM
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I have to be honest and say I was one of those people who used to say all those sorts of those terrible things. It took me waking up, thinking for myself and hearing how what I used to say sounded coming out of others mouths that made me realize what I had been like. It wasn't a pretty picture.

You are so right, children are not born hating, it is taught to them.

By the way, sometimes what they AREN'T saying is much more important than what they are saying. If they keep the "sheeples" mind on say "Protecting the Sanctity of Marriage" they have them busy worrying about THAT and not important things like war, crime or how people like me have to worry everyday about not having any health insurance.

I think THOSE are the real "Abominations", not homosexuality.


"All of us invent ourselves. Some of us just have more imagination than others."


Cher
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258951 09/15/06 01:16 AM
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All my straight couple friends tell me I am the most threatening person to their marriages next to their cat.
I also think that the great unwashed, Joe and Jane Sixpack cannot/will not think for themselves and want to be led by their leaders, elected or otherwise. So they are getting exactly what they asked for.

I agree with you totally re war, insurance, etc.

Jan, who will have health care for the very first time in 50 years on October 1st courtesy of Medicare


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258952 09/15/06 01:54 AM
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OK that was a ride and a half.... I mean reading the posting of the day.

I asked patience a question to understand where she was coming from and I end up reading what amounts to hurt feelings leading to a hatred of all Christians.

I can't fix, nor do I want to, your viewpoint regarding Christians. You are seeing a small percentage of Christians and judging all of us by that experience. It would be like me saying that all gay people have sex in movie theatres and parks.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258953 09/15/06 02:00 AM
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Well, we do. I thought everyone knew that. Where else is there?


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258954 09/15/06 02:03 AM
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Patience does not hate anyone...Its not in her nature or in the nature of buddism to have a hatred of christians.

Hete is a very powerful word - you should really be careful how you use it.

I think she expressed herself very well and has a good head on her shoulders.She is not christian yet she she behaves like a "true" one does.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258955 09/15/06 02:51 AM
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Chelle - Marriage Editor Offline OP
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I just posted over in drama movies about the movie "V for Vendetta". Have any of y'all seen it?

I would definitely recommend it - parts of it has a lot to do with our discussion here. (Don't want to give it away if no-one has seen it yet). If you have seen it come join me over in the movies section! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But the point is, this is where judgement gets all of us in trouble. We start poining fingers at people for what they do wrong, and then the fingers of persecution and hatred can dig their way into our hearts (and I'm not discounting myself - I'm not anymore immune than is anyone else.)

[color:"red"]�Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. " [/color] Matthew 7:1

I guess it is just so much easier to see what's wrong with someone else, than with ourselves.

What's that old saying? "Those that can't do; teach." In this case it's "Those that can't figure out how to fix themselves; go find something wrong with someone else."

I stick by my statement - introduce people to God, let Him do the work, and let the two of them decide together if there are changes to be made in that person's life. That is whose business it is. (Unless of course it is a crime affecting someone else, like child molestation or murder - but that's a whole different subject).


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258956 09/15/06 05:07 AM
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It totally amazes me! Only in a Christian forum do we have the most personal attacks and slanderous remarks made in a public forum! I wish this were a safe place with no problems or opposition. I am sorry to those who have been hurt or offended by the things someone has posted here. I don't get offended.

The level of threat from a Christian never comes from themselves but from the perceptions of their alledged opponent. I promise I have never had a personal opponent, but I have come under attack so many times.

Just the fact that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died so I might have life everlasting through Him sends the librals out in droves to "prove" that I am a "fundie" or "narrow minded" or some kind of back woods, moonshine cookin', barefoot, Bible thumper.

This is my belief. And from my experience one cannot change what another believes.

Put downs and out and out bullying doesn't work. No one can change what I believe and I think it's funny that someone would try.

I have had this forum for going on 5 years and I'm still here. I'm not going away! To quote Joyce Meyer, "I hope that every morning I wake up, the devil trembles! I hope he is scowling, shaking his head, kicking the dirt and saying 'Oh No! She's getting up again!!!!'"

I can prove that the power of the Lord is real by reading back over the years the email and the postings that have attacked me personally, my forum readers personally and Christianity as a whole repeatedly!! Everytime I have opened my mouth (or raised my hands to type) I have met with opposition. It can only be the anointing that repels, I think.

No matter what the topic, it always comes down to how "wrong" Christians are and how un-PC our beliefs are. I have yet to eneter a discussion where the Bible isn't dragged through the mud and called "archaic". How threatened does one have to be to go into a forum like this one and use derogatory terms and attack a basic belief like Christianity? I say get over it or go away!! Maybe not PC, maybe not even "christian", but evs baby! I'm tired and fed up with being nice... some Christians just aren't "nice" and I personally believe that Tolerance is not respect.

I think Jesus loves all people. I think and BELIEVE God loves all people. Good, bad, ugly ,pretty, kind,mean,hetero,homo...evs. I think this is how He wants us to live. All are called but not all respond. So it really is on the individual. It's your fault, not God's. He hasn't changed. He's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, whether we like it or not. Just deal. Decide.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258957 09/15/06 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Patience does not hate anyone...Its not in her nature or in the nature of buddism to have a hatred of christians.

Hete is a very powerful word - you should really be careful how you use it.

I think she expressed herself very well and has a good head on her shoulders.She is not christian yet she she behaves like a "true" one does.


I wasn't talking about patience, it was the posters after hers that took a very negative tone.

Funny how you see me negatively for saying that I feel attacked.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258958 09/15/06 07:05 AM
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Michelle,

Your last post is so true, all I mean to say is that it goes both ways. It seems that Christians get judged and seen as the bad people. Our beliefs are not respected, if we so much as question someone we are all bigots, yet our beliefs are questioned everyday.

I don't want to judge others, I just feel judged. I don't go to other sites to discredit or insult, yet they keep coming here. Oh well, makes for good posting and good debate.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258959 09/15/06 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Just the fact that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died so I might have life everlasting through Him sends the librals out in droves to "prove" that I am a "fundie" or "narrow minded" or some kind of back woods, moonshine cookin', barefoot, Bible thumper.


Amen Jenna

This is exactly the point. If we go to there sites we are labelled hate mongering attacks, yet they can come here and attack our beliefs. They claim to have an open mind yet they continue to disrespect us.

Jenna, don't apologize if others come on the forum and make people like me upset. I think it is good for people to post what they want as long as I am able to voice how I feel about it. I simply will not quietly allow someone to disrespect my belief system or desicrate my God.

Oh ya -- What's a fundie???? Don't have that term up here in igloo land of the never ending snow!!!

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258960 09/15/06 07:36 AM
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I believe that homosexuality is as normal as being left-handed. The bible was written by men who were writing down their perception of god, which probably has nothing nothing to do with the actual deity! The god of the OT comes over as a very unpleasant creature indeed imo.


loveapple,

have you read the Bible for yourself?

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258961 09/15/06 07:38 AM
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In the Bible there is a verse 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". For someone to take this verse at literal it would mean that we once existed in some other plane and the tendencies we are born to must not just be by chance.



I've been looking for an expert on the spiritual world and since you seem to know more than God....

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258962 09/15/06 07:43 AM
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The fundies have an answer for everything however ludicrous it is. I was spiritually abused but the stinking penetecostal church I was forced to attend as a child, so have no love for them or their version of god!


So since you have all the sane non ludicrous answers we should all bow down to you??? At least we have answers to all the questions, mostly historically, biblically, archiologically, and spiritually supported. What do you have that proves your answers to the tough questions? Anything based in historical records? Archiologically proved? Or just your all knowing opinion?


Spiritually abused - that's a new one.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258963 09/15/06 07:45 AM
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Out of all respect to everyone, I don't believe anyone suggested that what I said was hateful.

I respect all beliefs and was only answering Carennedy's question regarding what I believed. My response about the devil was in response to a statement by BiblBasixEditor.

To perhaps clarify what others have written in criticism of Christianity and some Christians, I think it is very possibly because many Gay people, men and women, have been deeply hurt, and even traumatized by the comments and treatment they have received in the course of their lives. Allow me to give you some examples from my own life. Perhaps this may help good Christians (and there are MANY) to understand why there is often so much anger towards Christians and Christian teachings from the Gay Community.

This will be long, but please bear with me?

Beginning with my own life. As a small child I was ritually, sexually abused by a Christian Priest and one of his flock. (There are hundres like me who suffered the same things.) It continued from age 4 and a half to almost 7. As a result, and as a life-saving coping mechanism, I developed Dissociative Identity Disorder, previously known as MPD. I still live with this disorder at the age of 67. My whole life was ruined by this atrocity which was done to me in the name of Christianity. I was threatened with hell fire and worse if I ever told anyone.

Because of problems I had as legacies of this abuse, I was told by some Christians that I was a wicked child and that God did not love me. Again I was threatened with hell fire.

But still I loved Jesus and wanted to serve him, and I did my best to be a good Christian. I loved everybody - genuinely, no matter what they did to me. I tested my vocation to the Religious Life in 1966, where I became a postulant in an Anglican Order of Nuns. I only remained for 6 months because one of the nuns who knew me well told the Superior that I was a lesbian. I got kicked out.

I went on, working with abused children and also became a lay preacher in a church which welcomed Homosexuals and did not reject them. I studied to become a minister. During this time, I counselled many gay people and heard their stories of persecution by Christians. Some had attempted suicide because of the hatred they encountered. One succeeded.

During the time that I was a co-worship co-ordinator of this church, I attended a gathering at which I was attacked by a group of christians from other denominations who told me that they could 'feel the devil eminating from me' and they shunned me like I was a leper. They told me, and the members of my flock who were present, that we were all damned because we were gay, or condoned homosexuality. one shouted: "When Jesus comes, You'll GET YOURS!" Another told us that it was a pity the old rules of the Bible didn't still apply, and we could be "stoned to death"! As we walked through the crowd, carrying candles, we had things like "ABOMINATION" yelled at us.

On another note, I had a friend (?) tell me that she would no longer be my friend unless I agreed to go to her church and have 'the devil cast out of me'.

And what was the basis of all this hatred? No, it wasn't the Christians themselves, it was WHAT THE BIBLE and the CHRISTIAN RELIGION TAUGHT THEM! They were only repeating what the Bible had to say, or that they thought it had to say, about Homosexuality!

Every time you quote Bible verses condemning homosexuality you GIVE PEOPLE THE AMMUNITION TO ABUSE HOMOSEXUALS - and believe that they are doing God's will! that's what it all boils down to. I am not against Christians. They are only following what they believe to be true. I am against the TEACHINGS of Christianity, - and this is why I am no longer a Christian. NOT because of a few misguided Christian people.

It isn't surprising that when people dish out hate, they end up getting hate back.

I hope this helps my Christian sisters on this list to understand more clearly how Homosexuals feel, and why they might react as they do.

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258964 09/15/06 07:53 AM
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I would also like to remind you all that the title of this particular thread is "Homosexuality and Christianity"! - so we DO have a right to be here and speak our minds!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258965 09/15/06 08:02 AM
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Patience,

I realize that you have suffered and suffered terribly. I don't want to be added to this list.

It sounds like you didn't find the love of God where you should of, what you found were the tools of satan working to ensure you never would. God must have had great plans for you for the devil to work so hard to misguide you.

Ya I know you don't believe in Satan, but I do and I believe that you have been lead astray by him because God loved you so much and had such a large plan for you that Satan was very threatened.

The sins of the older denominations histories are the result of satan using the guise of the church to turn people away from it. The people who committed these acts were not Christian but get lumped in with us. Please understand that Jesus instructed us to do so much more than we have, we've let you down and for this I am very sorry.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258966 09/15/06 08:05 AM
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I would also like to remind you all that the title of this particular thread is "Homosexuality and Christianity"! - so we DO have a right to be here and speak our minds!


I never said you didn't have that right, but I also have the right not to be called names.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258967 09/15/06 08:16 AM
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Patience

I just wanted to re-iterate that I do not find anything you have posted to be disrespectful or unkind. I have viewed it as more of a conversation and awareness. It is those that are mean and hatefilled that have come after yours that I directed my posts to.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258968 09/15/06 08:18 AM
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I agree. I don't like names or labels. We are all special people and deserve to be treated with respect.

And I do thank you for the kindness of your words in response to my long epistle! As I said, there are MANY good Christians, and I admire your dedication. There are things we do not agree on, but that's OK. Wouldn't it be a boring world if everyone agreed with everyone all the time! (smile!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258969 09/15/06 08:21 AM
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I agree -- so lets agree to disagree on this one topic.

I was going to ask, before all this other stuff, if you had seen the movie We don't know anything? I didn't like it but you may.

As much as I wish you would see the love of God again, I know that may not happen. I wish you the best of luck on your journey.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258970 09/15/06 08:33 AM
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No. I haven't seen that movie. Perhaps it hasn't come to Australia yet!

As far as knowing the love of God, I can say that I do know I am being 'watched over'. I prefer not to give it a name. But as love is such a huge part of me, I acknowledge that it has to come from somewhere. I just accept that 'something' is there, and just go on loving as I always have. I am incapable of hate. I find something to love is every life form, and I regard all life as my teacher.

Nothing has been lost. My experiences have not made me bitter.

With all kind thoughts,
Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258971 09/15/06 08:35 AM
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We are the only minority left to whom it OK to say, "Die, faggot!" or "You can't teach my child, you lesbo dyke!" "You are all abominations!" "We were attacked by Al Queda because of you!" "Katrina destroyed New Orleans because of you!"


Scared individuals that do not understand God will look to those things they are not at all and blame them. It is unfortunate because most people today are not like that. Anyone that thinks Al Queda came after the US because of homosexuality needs a contemporary history lesson. As for the rest it is all ignorance and hate filled.

I can't say I agree with your lifestyle but I do believe that you have the right to choose it. I may not agree with abortion but I do agree with the right to choose it. God gave us the right to choose his way or the other way, who are we to take away the right he gave us.

Jesus was perfect, Christians aren't please stop expecting us to be.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258972 09/15/06 11:02 AM
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Woah, I don't check the forums for a few days and all heck breaks loose.

Hmm, how do I say this without starting more problems...
basically, I understand why those like loveapple have posted what they have, I think patience summed it up quite well in her post; it is very difficult not to be angry with a group of people you percieve to have done you wrong. However, as Carennedy quite rightly points out, not all Christians are the same and not one of us on this earth is perfect and this is perhaps not the place to vent such anger as most of the views posted on here have been respectful and not designed to attack anyone.

Sometimes I find it difficult to respect the views of certain faiths because of my own negative experience with a few bad eggs and people who use religious beliefs as an excuse for anti-gay sentiment (though they are not actually religious, do not go to church, etc), but lately 3 of the kindest and most forgiving people I have met are christians (2 protestants, 1 catholic) who are very serious about their beliefs and to me represent how christians should behave. These people have changed my opinion and allowed me to be mindful and respectful of all points of view, to judge a whole group based on the experiences you've had with only a handful of them is wrong no matter where you're coming from.

Anyway, I geuss that's all I really wanted to say...I suppose it's just a big hippy 'everyone should love each other <img src="/images/graemlins/lovers.gif" alt="" />' type post but I felt like it needed to be said so, yeah.

Oh and
Quote:
What's a fundie???? Don't have that term up here in igloo land of the never ending snow!!!


It's short for fundamentalist and is generally used to describe those with very strict and right-wing christian beliefs.


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258973 09/15/06 11:59 AM
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Quote:



I can't say I agree with your lifestyle but I do believe that you have the right to choose it.


You don't really think it's a choice, do you? It is now well documented that our 'disease' is genetic. But if it were a choice, I would choose it.


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258974 09/15/06 01:41 PM
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It is so sad that the Bible, which I have read from cover to cover several times, and read daily is used as a weaopon of abuse by extreme fundamentalist Christians, who are no better than extreme Muslims in their hatred!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258975 09/15/06 01:58 PM
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As have I, loveapple. I find the Bible full of grand sagas, long genealogies, wonderful stories and a great code of morals. As does the Koran, the Talmud and so many other religious writings. They are so much the same.

Sadly, any power based, partriarchal organization, whether a religion, a political party or a group of boy scouts, will use its power to abuse those different than they are. And somehow they will find some esoteric, arcane writings to justify it.


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258976 09/15/06 02:22 PM
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I agree with you pondlady!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258977 09/15/06 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I can't say I agree with your lifestyle but I do believe that you have the right to choose it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You don't really think it's a choice, do you? It is now well documented that our 'disease' is genetic. But if it were a choice, I would choose it.



All I mean is that you have made a choice to turn your back on God and live for yourself. Most everyone in this world has, there are very very few Mother Theresa's out there. God asks us to sacrifice ourselves so we can be close to him.

I am born a sinner and a selfish person but this doesn't mean I'm right to choose to think only of myself and lie and cheat and murder to get my way. I was born with depression but this doesn't mean it's OK for me to choose to live in self pity, making those miserable around me and basically only caring about my own emotional state. I have to choose to think of those around me.


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258978 09/15/06 06:59 PM
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Quote:
It is so sad that the Bible, which I have read from cover to cover several times, and read daily is used as a weaopon of abuse by extreme fundamentalist Christians, who are no better than extreme Muslims in their hatred!


How did you miss the love God has for us? The old Testament is a story about a father who loves his children and wants for them to love him and come to him for protection and guidance. However like rebellious teens his children act out breaking the rules of the home in order to move further and further away. The father allows them their freedom but at some point because he loves them so much he must dicipline them so in their suffering they will seek him again.

I encourage you to re-read the Old Testament as you would a parenting manuel. Due to the hate you have received from non-christians calling themselves Christian I would consider skipping over the small one line about homosexuality in the long long list of rules that are broken everyday by Christians and non Christians alike.

In the future when someone attacks you for breaking a one line rule, you can ask them how many of the rules they have broken, how many of the 10 commandments they have broken.

"I may be in a same sex marriage, but let me ask you this, have you told a lie today? have you looked at another women other than your wife and thought, she looks good? Have you every bought something because your neighbour had it or because you wanted to have the latest and best so your friends could drool..... the list goes on and on and on."

Or to make the point quickly and with the words of God you could respond by saying.

Jesus said, "Whoever has not sinned throw the first stone." and do not remove the splinter from your brothers eye until you have removed the log from your own.

It doesn't matter what I think, or you think, all that matters is what God thinks and what he will say to us on judgement day.

You want to know what I really think about the whole same sex marriage thing... read my article on the subject.

Redefining Marriage, What is marriage

Last edited by Carennedy; 09/15/06 07:17 PM.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258979 09/15/06 07:54 PM
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[

You want to know what I really think about the whole same sex marriage thing... read my article on the subject.

Redefining Marriage, What is marriage


Right on, sister. You speak the truth.


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258980 09/15/06 11:14 PM
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Carennedy,

I never meant to make you feel as if I were attacking you personally - nor Jenna on here (I've a few others in mind, but they've mostly been silent for a while.)
(Sorry, that wasn't nice) <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My heart has just been hurting from the fact that so many seem to feel that Christians are against them because of their homosexuality - and I realize that there are many who are, but there are also those of us who are trying to make it better, too.

Quote:
They were only repeating what the Bible had to say, or that they thought it had to say, about Homosexuality!


It's that "or that they thought it had to say" - that I would like to point out.

People have used the Bible to support their own beliefs in many wrong ways for many years. I very sadly remember seeing a Jerry Springer show (back before he became a joke) that had to do with children in the KKK. These 4 year old babies could quote Bible verses, and then turn around and explain that those verses meant that they should kill all jews, "ni**ers", and fags. Don't tell me that a 4 year old figured that out from a Bible verse by himself!!! Someone (human) teaches that kind of hate, and it just gets passed down and down. I about cried when Springer turned around, crouched down on his knee, and asked the little boy "Do you want to kill me?" , "No, sir!", "But I'm Jewish." And you could just see the confusion in that baby's eyes, because he thought a Jew was some kind of a monster.

It's not the Bible that's wrong - it's the people that taught it.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258981 09/16/06 06:36 AM
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Sorry patience I think I have made a poor choice of wording.I aqm not very good at expressing myself in the written word <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Peace and Blessings,
Natalie.

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No need to apologize Natalie. I wasn't at all upset by anything you said. Quite the contrary! It was just that I wanted to point out that it wasn't my post anyone was referring to.

Carennedy,I just wanted to ask you, are you saying that Homosexual people should not have intimate relationships with their loved ones? Even when vows have been made and taken as sacred? Are you suggesting that we should all remain celibate all our lives?

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258983 09/16/06 10:50 AM
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Everyone is entitled to a loving sexual relationship gay or straight, imo.


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
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I believe this too loveapple, but find it difficult to understand why some Christians do not. Why are some of my Chriatian friends happy to see Homosexual people find loving partners to share their lives with, while others say we must remain celibate?

If it is because the relationship is 'outside marriage' then that is hardly fair, seeing that marriage is denied us legally. (though not in all places in the world. I believe it is accepted in Canada and parts of Europe) Metropolitan Community Church has a marriage service for homosexual couples, called a Holy Union. So the idea that same sex relationships are outside of marriage is not accurate. So why is it wrong? If the law of the land does not permit us to marry, then it seems unfair to tell us that we are living in sin because we aren't married!

It is very cruel to condemn us to lives of celibacy. Very, very cruel!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258985 09/16/06 12:01 PM
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You are right Patience, it is very sad indeed. I suspect if Jesus was here today he would be standing alongside gays and would have some very stinging remarks to make about the hateful attitude of some Christians! It has to be noted that Jesus never once condemned homosexuals, so he couldn't have thought it a big deal. Maybe Jesus or some of his disciples were gay for all we know!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258986 09/16/06 04:28 PM
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Derogatory terms will not be tolerated. From this post on, Christians will be refered to as "Christians" not "Fundies". Anyone using this term will be asked to edit their post publically and if they do not, they will be banned from the forum.

We will not use the terms "gay" "queer" "lez" "fag".... not that any of these terms have been used in excess, but we will not use hem. Anyone using them will be asked to edit their post publically and if they donot, then they will be banned.

I iwll be watching...

Can we please return to a normal tone of discussion or I iwll be forced to lock the topic.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258987 09/16/06 04:42 PM
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Sorry I shouldn't have used the word 'fundie'if it is offensive to fundamentalists in the US. I do find the hatred towards homosexuals displayed on this forum very offensive.

I should add that I am a happily married heterosexual who defends the right of anyone one to be in the skin they are in whether it is gay, straight or transsexual!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
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I also find the hatred directed toward homosexuals destestable. But it has been allowed to stand without censure. Hmmmmmm


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258989 09/16/06 09:14 PM
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Quote:
No need to apologize Natalie. I wasn't at all upset by anything you said. Quite the contrary! It was just that I wanted to point out that it wasn't my post anyone was referring to.

Carennedy,I just wanted to ask you, are you saying that Homosexual people should not have intimate relationships with their loved ones? Even when vows have been made and taken as sacred? Are you suggesting that we should all remain celibate all our lives?

Patience.


patience,

I know your not going to like my answer, but here it is.

If an individual such as yourself desires to be close to God then it would be that part of you that God is asking you to sacrifice for him. Just as Mother Theresa choose to sacrifice her sexual self for God. (I'm not saying she was a lesbian.)

If you want to believe in God and you want to have a sexual relationship, that is possible it only means that it won't be as close as if you sacrificed that part of you.

If you want no relationship with God then it doesn't matter, live your life as you want.

In the end it's your life, your choice and I do not have any right to force you to make a different choice. In the end I can't stand in for you on the day of judgement, only you can. If God does not exist and the Bible is a farce then what you do with your life doesn't matter. But if he does exist and the Bible is his word.....

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258990 09/16/06 09:17 PM
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patience, you are right, recently Canada did pass laws to allow for same sex marriage. There will be an issue when a homosexual couple asks to be married in a church and it is denighed to them and they take the church to court. We are aware it will happen.

I was denighed a church marriage because I was co-habitating with my fiancee at the time. I understood why and didn't take them to court for it.

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Quote:
You are right Patience, it is very sad indeed. I suspect if Jesus was here today he would be standing alongside gays and would have some very stinging remarks to make about the hateful attitude of some Christians! It has to be noted that Jesus never once condemned homosexuals, so he couldn't have thought it a big deal. Maybe Jesus or some of his disciples were gay for all we know!


Jesus never condemned anyone he came in contact with, he was there to forgive sin. The fact that he never forgave a homosexual is more glaring because it means it was not forgivable to him.

He forgave the lady at the well, she was co-habitating and had several husbands. He didn't tell her to continue to sin but forgave her and then said go sin no more.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258992 09/16/06 09:22 PM
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Michelle,

I wanted to note that deragatory remarks towards homosexuals has not been used by those who are Christian but by those who are against Christianity.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258993 09/16/06 09:34 PM
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Sorry I shouldn't have used the word 'fundie'if it is offensive to fundamentalists in the US. I do find the hatred towards homosexuals displayed on this forum very offensive.


Are you sure you have the right forum. Everyone here seems to have been lovingly expressing their opinions. If I offended patience or any other individual I do apologize publically.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258994 09/16/06 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Michelle,

I wanted to note that deragatory remarks towards homosexuals has not been used by those who are Christian but by those who are against Christianity.


I wasn't talking about this time around, but we have had a couple of members on past discussions who were derogatory (they are no longer around) - and then some Christians in the world in general.

No, I think all of us that are Christians on this debate have been pretty good. (IMO - <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258995 09/17/06 05:17 AM
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Thanks Carennedy for your honest response. And no, you have not offended me in any way. I believe you have always answered me respectfully. What you have said are not your personal opinions but those of the teachings you follow.

If Jesus considered Homosexuality to be unforgivable, then that certainly seals my fate, and the fate of millions of Homosexual people who do indeed love God and are trying to live Christian lives.

It doesn't affect me personally, because I don't really care what happens to me after I die because my conscience is clear, - but to others it will be a great heartbreak. It is those whom I care about. Those who have kept the faith, even though they have suffered greatly.

I think of those members of my congragation when I was in the Ministry, and how deep and sincere their devotion was. How pure their relationships with their partners were and are, and to know that Jesus, whom they loved so much, will reject them too, just because they wanted to love and be loved by one of their own kind. Because they took vows in the presence of God and promised to love and cherish until death, they will be turned away by Jesus himself. What a sad picture of Jesus that reveals! Hmmmm. I think I have definitely made the right choice in changing to Buddhism. How I wish those poor souls could too. (I think I'll have a huge job - comforting them when they die! At least they will know that someone accepts them as they are.)

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258996 09/17/06 02:33 PM
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Patience,

You are forgetting about Grace. Your friends who love Jesus will not be condemned they will have to answer for their life but their sins have been forgiven and the Jesus they love will speak on their behalf.

Just like all other Christians who love Jesus but still sin everyday. Many still will lie occasionally, some will turn away from a person in need, some will judge others, some will act holier than thou on one occasion or another. Just because we are Christian does not make us sinless or perfect. If we love Jesus he will be there for us in the end because it is his blood that has been sacrificed for us and all we need to do is believe and love him.

Beliving in him isn't a license to sin. But as I said previously how close it is depends on your choices to live as sinless as possible and sacrifice for him.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258997 09/17/06 03:31 PM
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So we are still sin filled? I will never change your mind, so I certainly will stop trying. Nor will you ever change my mind or my way of living my life. Would you please stop trying? I promise I will not make anti-Christian remarks if only you will stop making anti-gay ones.

I need no one to 'answer for me.' I am perfectly capable of doing that for myself.


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258998 09/17/06 08:42 PM
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Carennedy In one post you said

Jesus never condemned anyone he came in contact with, he was there to forgive sin. The fact that he never forgave a homosexual is more glaring because it means it was not forgivable to him.


and then in another you said


You are forgetting about Grace. Your friends who love Jesus will not be condemned they will have to answer for their life but their sins have been forgiven and the Jesus they love will speak on their behalf.

So which one is it????

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #258999 09/18/06 02:01 AM
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When Jesus was here he forgave everyone that he came accross and ask them to go and sin no more.

Since patience friends love and follow Jesus he will speak on their behalf. The sins we don't ask for forgiveness for we will have to answer for. If they continue to live in a same sex relationship and don't repent that particular sin they will have to answer for it. The sins they have repented for have already been forgiven.

I have to think more about the first one it was in response to applelove posting that Jesus may be gay. So it was to counter that. However, it is a valid point all the same.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259000 09/18/06 10:14 AM
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We certainly still have a problem here then, Carennedy, because Homosexual christians don't believe they are sinning by expressing their love in a committed relationship. What they regard as sin, is promiscuity and any form of sex, Heterosexual or Homosexual, which is indulged in without love and committment.

We cannot repent of what we do not believe is sin, and which we do not believe that Jesus regards as sin, so if what you say is true, then we are all damned. So be it!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259001 09/18/06 08:37 PM
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I was reading an interesting article ( I wish I could remember its source but if you google it you will find info) about the Animal kingdom.

It seems that there are Gay and Lesbian animals and it has been proven.I believe this is the way god wanted it.

Having a section of the community who falls in love and is attracted to the same sex in my opinion is natures way of controlling the population and just another way in which god made us all different and unique.

The Bible does not openley say that Gay relationships are a mortal sin and I believe with all my heart that god made some people that way inclined.

Some christians will dispute this and that is okay as its not up to us to change their belief system but at the same time My faith and belief cannot be shaken.
God is a loving god - I do not think he will judge anyone for having a loving relationship with someone of the same sex - I feel that with every fibre of my being...

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259002 09/19/06 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Jesus never condemned anyone he came in contact with, he was there to forgive sin. The fact that he never forgave a homosexual is more glaring because it means it was not forgivable to him.


I'm sorry Carennedy, you know that I respect your views but I have to step in here to point something out. You say that Jesus never condemned anyone he came into contact with, I think to make the assumtion that the fact that Jesus does not encounter a homosexual in the bible means that he finds the sin unforgivable is to interpret the bible in a way of your choosing. You could just as easily infer that as Jesus doesn't encounter any homosexual that they do not need forgiveness.

I'm not saying that this is the correct interpreation, it's just that it seems that you are 'filling in the blanks' in the bible, inferring something that isn't mentioned. Are there other people that Jesus does not come into contact with (and therefore forgive) that is mentioned in the old testament as someone who would be committing a sin, a man who shaves for example (if I remember my leviticus right)? Would it be fair to say that their sin is also unforgivable?

For all we know Jesus doesn't meet, forgive or condemn homosexuals because the apostles/those that have translated the new testament simply didn't consider it a problem, as in didn't think it happened at all and so did not even consider its morality in the eyes of God.


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259003 09/19/06 03:22 PM
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Isn't love love, no matter between whom it is shared?

That is my definition of Love.


Darling Poor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259004 09/19/06 03:27 PM
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Quote:
For all we know Jesus doesn't meet, forgive or condemn homosexuals because the apostles/those that have translated the new testament simply didn't consider it a problem, as in didn't think it happened at all and so did not even consider its morality in the eyes of God.


There is no question in my mind that those who scribed the new Testament certainly did know of homosexuality....
It was widely practised, especially by the Greeks and Romans, and the Greeks considerd it the purest of Loves - over and above heterosexual love.
For educated scribes to not have known about it, beggars belief.
It would be more credible to suppose perhaps, that these scholars may themselves have practised homosexuality, and this would neither be unusual nor frowned upon in those times....when you consider that some of the most creative minds in History were homosexuals, this should not be viewed with either horror or derision.
I do not state this to be either argumentative or controversial. I am merely putting forward a distinct possibility.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259005 09/19/06 03:57 PM
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I'm inclined to believe that too, I was just trying to put across the point that the ommision of homosexuality in the New Testament (as far as I am aware) shouldn't necessarily be read as evidence for homosexuals being 'unfogivable' in the eyes of jesus (forgive me if this isn't exactly what you meant Carrenedy I'm paraphrasing for the sake of keeping things less complicated)


"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259006 09/20/06 03:27 AM
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I will re-post what I said earlier on this subject:

"How are you going to feel when you stand before the Lord and every action, every thought that you ever did or had will be played on a big screen for you to see. amadeus1220 07/21/06

I will be too busy proclaiming the glory of the Lord to feel shame. Shame and judgement are lies of the devil. How can one claim to be cleansed through grace if they still feel shame or cast judgement? Are we not met where we are with the love of Christ? Did he not die for all? Even in the middle of our filth? Are Christians "perfect" people? Or are we sinners that are accepted and loved through the blood of Christ Jesus shed on the cross? Where is our faith? How are we like Jesus if we are shunning those we deem as unworthy? Are we not also unworthy? Is it not written "God is Love"? All love? Or is it only the love we think is "God's love"? Who are we to determine what God thinks? Are we now more intellegent that God himself? Has he determined us as the judgers of our brothers and sisters? Or is it written that Only One will Judge, the Son of God Jesus Christ. I don't think thats me or you or anyone else... there is only one Jesus.

Soooooo

What would Jesus do? Who does Jesus love? Who are Jesus' friends? Who needs him most?

Two guys go off on a hike. One guy decides to go into the woods and the other decides to follow the road. Which one needs the flashlight more?

When did Christians become God? I know I'm not. I'm not even close. So who do I think I am to determine who God loves? "07/22/06


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259007 09/20/06 11:35 AM
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Dear Jenna,
I think your signature quote says it all, and I repeat it here:

JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!

Patience.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259008 09/21/06 04:50 AM
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Thats it! Thats it! Exactly!! Amen!! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259009 09/21/06 09:10 PM
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I second that AMEN! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259010 09/22/06 12:52 AM
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My comment needs to be put back into context it was more of a response to what Loveapple posted:

Quote:
You are right Patience, it is very sad indeed. I suspect if Jesus was here today he would be standing alongside gays and would have some very stinging remarks to make about the hateful attitude of some Christians! It has to be noted that Jesus never once condemned homosexuals, so he couldn't have thought it a big deal. Maybe Jesus or some of his disciples were gay for all we know!


When I read what she wrote about Jesus and his diciples I responded by posting:

Quote:
Jesus never condemned anyone he came in contact with, he was there to forgive sin. The fact that he never forgave a homosexual is more glaring because it means it was not forgivable to him.

He forgave the lady at the well, she was co-habitating and had several husbands. He didn't tell her to continue to sin but forgave her and then said go sin no more.


It is what I wrote that everyone seems to feel so offended by and not what loveapple wrote. I didn't mean to offend, I was only responding to what I found an unsound, unfounded, and malicious claim on Jesus.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259011 09/22/06 02:52 AM
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Carennedy,

I see her comment as more of an unfounded off hand throw about claim to attempt to support loveapple's stand in favor of the homosexual lifestyle. I was not offended by it at all, it's not a new idea coming from within the homosexual community at all. From what I understand love apple is not homosexual, but she supports the freedom to live whatever lifestyle a person wants to live. I guess that includes murderers, rapists, pedophiles...etc. I mean, freedom for one group to knowingly continue in sin is freedom for all groups.

I don't condemn the homosexual community, because a community is made up of people, and people aren't perfect. But in keeping with the tale of the adulterous woman found in the gospel of John, I feel that i am called more to love than to judge. Only Jesus can forgive sin. Only Jesus can convict of sin. So, my job is to love those who are in bondage to the homosexual lifestyle. In particular, the promiscuity, the immorality and the decadence. However, i have to state clearly that this doesn't mean I support these kinds of preferences in a heterosexual life style either.

Your comments weren't offensive at all period. In fact, they were welcome. It's OK to defend someone you love.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259012 09/22/06 05:07 AM
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I just have to come back into this debate and make some very important points regarding the previous post.

"From what I understand love apple is not homosexual, but she supports the freedom to live whatever lifestyle a person wants to live. I guess that includes murderers, rapists, pedophiles...etc. I mean, freedom for one group to knowingly continue in sin is freedom for all groups."


Really! You people get upset when someone refers to fundamentalists as 'fundies' yet you lump people like myself and Battlekitten in with murderers, rapists and pedophiles!! EXCUSE ME!!

This is EXCEEDINGLY offensive to me because I suffered terribly at the hands of pedophiles. HETEROSEXUAL PEDOPHILES!

Murderers, rapists and pedophiles take from others what is sacred. They rob them, no, they TEAR from them their self respect, their innocnece, their freedom, their emotional stability and they destroy lives. Ordinary good living homosexuals do none of these things.

"So, my job is to love those who are in bondage to the homosexual lifestyle."

What makes you believe that we are in 'bondage'? If I am in bondage to my homosexuality, then you too are in bondage to your heterosexuality! If my sexuality is a sin, then so is yours. Sexuality itself is then a sin, because our sexuality is just as natural as yours to us. We don't see yours as a sin, and we don't tell you constantly, (or at all for that matter,) that it is, so why can't you grant us the same respect?

Personally, I'm sick to death of hearing how 'sinful' my sexual orientation is. I'm almost 68 years old and I've been hearing this sort of thing for at least 47 years. This kind of 'teaching' and attitude from the Christian Religion drove me away from it once and for all in 1977. I won't be going back. I prefer to believe there is NO God than to believe in, and be spending eternity with one like that!

And further more, if the Jesus I believe in and love, as a prophet of love, would also expect me to repent of my sexuality, then I reject him also. Frankly, I don't care whether he was heterosexual or homosexual. I judge people by how they LOVE, and not by their sexuality. What I consider important is how they LIVE their sexuality - in a pure life, or in promiscuity and degradation. And the same rules apply equally to both homosexuals and heterosexuals.

I know many of you will say that it isn't a sin for me unless I choose to enter into an intimate relationship, and that if I remain celibate, it isn't a sin. Well, I think under those circumstances that no heterosexual should perform a sexual act either, for any other reason than to have children if that's the case, because it would be obvious that it is the sex act itself which is a sin, and not the sexual orientation.

A great saint of the Christian Church once said: "Why all this focus on sin and the devil? We should be focusing on God, and love".


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259013 09/22/06 12:44 PM
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Well said, Patience. But you know that people like the poster will NEVER change their minds. I have had many people tell me, "My daddy taught me to hate homosexuals (people of color, other cultures, other countries) by the time I was 6 years old and that's good enough for me." I say, "Have you learned nothing since you were 6?" But that doesn't make any difference. Confusing 'believers' with facts or logic is just too much for their limited brain power. <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" />


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259014 09/22/06 01:44 PM
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Or as that 'fundie' once commented, when it was pointed out that Jesus was a Son of Israel:

"If English was good enough for Jesus" (holds up copy of Bible) "It's good enough for me!"

Last edited by Alexandra; 09/22/06 01:45 PM.
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259015 09/22/06 01:59 PM
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The KKK still hasn't been able to resolve its hatred of the Jewish nation with the fact that Jesus himself was a Jew!

So many people overlook that fact.


Michelle Taylor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259016 09/22/06 02:27 PM
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Why should anyone be offended by me suggesting Jesus or his disciples might have been gay? Anyone would think there was something wrong with be gay, which of course there isn't!!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259017 09/22/06 04:20 PM
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Quote:
The KKK still hasn't been able to resolve its hatred of the Jewish nation with the fact that Jesus himself was a Jew!

So many people overlook that fact.



They do not overlook the fact, they have twisted it around weirdly and say that he was not a Jew, that he was an Israelite. Oh yeah, and he was White too. Which I can't figure out how they come to THAT conclusion since if he looked like most of the people born in the region he would definitely not be blonde with blue eyes.

I think their white hats are cutting off blood flow to their brain.


"All of us invent ourselves. Some of us just have more imagination than others."


Cher
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259018 09/22/06 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Why should anyone be offended by me suggesting Jesus or his disciples might have been gay? Anyone would think there was something wrong with be gay, which of course there isn't!!



Back then, as with the Taliban and in Saudi Arabia today, he would most likely have been stoned to death. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


"All of us invent ourselves. Some of us just have more imagination than others."


Cher
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259019 09/22/06 08:57 PM
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Isn't the "homosexuality is contrary to the laws of God" thing in the Old Testament? I don't believe it exists in the New Testament. And isn't the New Testament the primary source of Christian doctrine?

Second, Jesus was passionately against the strict enforcement of religious doctrine: If any of you has a son or a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? [Matthew 12:11]

Jesus, whom I love deeply and admire, could not possibly be in accordance with any discrimination, hatred, or even slight intolerance of homosexuals. He spoke of equality and tolerance. And not the type of tolerance I see in here, where you speak out of one side of your mouth about grace and forgiveness, yet still hold out that such love is a sin. It really is not for us to judge, lest we be judged and to the same measure by which we did others.

People need love and companionship. It is normal to seek it out, and if you have a preference for one gender over the other, what difference does it make? Do you really believe God would disapprove of such a thing? Don't answer because some book seems to say so, look in your heart of hearts and ask yourself. Would an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent God really care?

What matters is healthy relationships full of love and the spread of love among us and throughout the world. I would ask that you open your hearts and try to see it as a non-issue.


Darling Poor
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259020 09/23/06 12:42 AM
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In the New testament, Paul made mention of homosexual acts, ( NOT homosexual LOVE) but I take nothing he said too seriously because he also disliked women!

I also often wondered if his 'thorn in the flesh' was perhaps his own sexual urges. Also, he was not very appreciated by the apostles who knew Jesus. He himself started out as a persecutor and never met Jesus in real life. He is said to have seen him in a vision, but I also have my doubts about the emotional and mental stability of people like Paul who claim to have 'visions'. He is comments about women suggest to me that he was not a very stable or well adjusted person. It is a pity that so much of Christian teaching today is based on what Paul said, rather than on what Jesus said.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259021 09/23/06 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Carennedy,
From what I understand love apple is not homosexual, but she supports the freedom to live whatever lifestyle a person wants to live. I guess that includes murderers, rapists, pedophiles...etc.


Innaproriate and very insesitive. Thankyou for giving us an example of how some christians think.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259022 09/23/06 06:09 AM
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I am NOT homosexual, I have been married very happily for 37 years with children and grandchildren. I just support the right of gays to practise their sexuality in a sexual way! There are many Christian gays out their and just because the fundamentalists don't like it is no reason for them not to be the way God made them!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259023 09/23/06 08:41 AM
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I know that loveapple and I agree with what you say in this regard <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259024 09/23/06 12:46 PM
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[quote]Carennedy,

I guess that includes murderers, rapists, pedophiles...etc. I mean, freedom for one group to knowingly continue in sin is freedom for all groups.

So, my job is to love those who are in bondage to the homosexual lifestyle. In particular, the promiscuity, the immorality and the decadence.[quote]

Surely you jest!! In bondage??? Did you just make up that vile comment to further demean (in your twisted way of seeing life) the last minority it is OK to hate? Publicly, that is. Nothing is worse that the hypocrite who condemns others while calling herself 'a loving human being.' What a pile of meaningless words AND thoughts. Puleeze!

And thanks for including us with rapists, pedophiles and murderers. We appreciate that. I suppose loving them is your job as well. You must be one busy human being and I use that term loosely.


Jan Goldfield

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259025 09/23/06 02:45 PM
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DeniseExoticPets Offline
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The bible is a tool of the Christian religion. A hammer can be used to drive a nail into wood, or it can be used to bludgeon someone in the head. Tools are also created by man. There may be input from other sources, but it was still written by man and interpreted throughout time by man. That indicates there might be some room for error, no?

If you believe in creationism you cannot ignore the fact that the precentage of homosexuals in the population across cultures has remained constant. Satan is not out there recruiting or else the number would increase greatly and quite truthfully, the Christian crusade against homosexuals would likely drive people TO not AWAY from it. It is reasonable to assume, then, that the creator has a purpose for homosexuality AND included it in his plan. If that is the case, then homosexuality is not a sin. Go back to the first paragraph and see where it is also reasonable to assume that the tool used for the Chrisitian faith may have been misinterpreted or include a personal human agenda.

The tool (Bible) is increasingly becoming the religion itself instead of serving as a guidebook for a spiritual life. As someone wisely said earlier in this thread "look inside yourself and you will know what is right".

Any comparison between murder, pedophilia, etc and homosexuality (assuming you believe it is a sin) is apples to oranges. Pedophilia and murder physically harm others. Homosexuality does not harm another. If you equal all sin in this manner than I truly pity anyone who believes. A child over seven, according to the bible, knows the difference between right and wrong. Is the child's sin of a lie equal to that of a murderer? One cannot pick and choose interpretations to suit themselves. I grew up in the church and if I were there today and still believed, frankly I'd be sitting in the pew waiting for the lightening bolt to strike the church. Christians are more concerned with others "sins" than their own it seems.


Denise Lacazette
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259026 09/24/06 01:05 AM
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BiblBasixEditor Offline
Gecko
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"From what I understand love apple is not homosexual, but she supports the freedom to live whatever lifestyle a person wants to live. I guess that includes murderers, rapists, pedophiles...etc. I mean, freedom for one group to knowingly continue in sin is freedom for all groups."
Really! You people get upset when someone refers to fundamentalists as 'fundies' yet you lump people like myself and Battlekitten in with murderers, rapists and pedophiles!! EXCUSE ME!!


Well, I've done it again... open mouth insert rear end!!

I never mean to insult anyone.

Let me try again, I don't want to condemn anyone. I think we are all the same. To me, I don't care, God loves you and so do I. At least I try. What I was trying (badly) to say is that I actively try to stay away from judgements about people and their way of life and choices they make. Because I think it's so easy to get caught up in the middle of a hypocrasy (sp).

My relationship with Christ is as precious to me as yours is to you. I don't think I am God and I don't think I have any hierarchy with Him just because I'm not homosexual. I have my own problems.... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think the problems arise when we point the finger at other people, and say we are "more loved" because we aren't like them. To me, that's what Jesus was talking about when he told us not to worry about the speck in our brothers eye, but to worry about the plank in our own.

I'm sorry that what I wrote wasn't clear.

We all have our own bondages. I agree with the quote you included in yur post. Bondage was the wrong word to use. I mean that we are all not perfect. I hope you can understand that I never meant to hurt your feelings and make you feel judged.


JESUS DOESN'T HOLD UP A STANDARD, HE HOLDS UP A MIRROR AND SAYS REFLECT ME!
Jenna Robinson
Bella Online Bible Basics
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259027 09/24/06 07:58 AM
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loveapple Offline
Shark
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I have said what I think about homosexuality, I have no more to add so will withdraw from the topic.!


"Look beyond the disability, see the perfection of the soul". RJG
Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259028 09/24/06 09:01 AM
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isabelle Offline
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well, there is a chapter in the bible that has "these are the people who were driven out of the land. Men who had unnatural acts with other men, unclean people, etc. I won't put too much down because I can't find the exact version of the bible I enjoy reading. Those who refused to leave the land were killed. So, in other words, some gay people aren't as bad as people think they are. And I'm straight.

Re: Homosexuality and Christianity #259029 09/25/06 04:39 PM
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DarlingPoor Offline
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Thanks, patience. I love Paul's letter to the Corinthians, the one about love, but agree with you about other points you made on him.

Denise, you said it so well! It does seem that worship of a book has taken precedent over the ideals behind it. This is why the buddha did not want to write one, and when pressured to do so, he wrote a book that was so short and to the point that it could not be used against others.

I think we need to look at the bible as history, and history is always evolving and changing. Humans do grow more tolerant on the overall, and I hope such positive change continues to grow in all churchs, and between them as well.


Darling Poor
Editor of Horses Site
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