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Joined: Jun 2006
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Shark
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Shark
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Dont we still have the right to choose what we Read, Think Buy, teach are kids? I wonder what law they arsted him under!! the LAW #123under code 456 penalty890 states YOU MUST ALLOW THIS BOOK IN YOU HOUSE OR GO TO JAIL!!! come on now thats laughable!!! they can not arest someone for not takeing a book into his house. its like a law that says i have to open and order everythink in my junk mail!!! haha what was he realy arested for?


Judge not lest ye be judged: all things are permittable but not all things are beneficial
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Gecko
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"That is whay God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved."

What I would draw ev eryone's attention to in this Biblical quote are the words:

1)"turned against the natural way"
and:

2)"And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other."

In the first case, turning against the natural would be a heterosexual person performing homosexual acts, and in the same sense, a homosexual person trying to be a heterosexual because what is 'normal' for a homosexual person is to seek a loving relationship with a person of the same sex and same sexual orientation.

In the second case, the words 'burned with lust' say it all. Lust is not love, and is wrong whether it be heterosexual or homosexual.

I am a 67yu year old lesbian and have been this way since prep school. I have never 'lusted' after anyone, but I have LOVED, deeply, sincerely and with great tenderness and a sense of the sanctity of a committed relationship.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


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Gecko
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"There's the story, now what does it show? It shows a mob filled with hate wanting to do harm to strangers. The sign of their hearts was the desire to rape the men. The behavior reflected how far away from God they were."

Yes. The great sin that was punished here was the crime against hospitality not sex. Lot was just as bad by offering his poor daughters to be violated.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


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Gecko
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"While they were in his home some wicked men rounded the house and demanded "Bring out the man who is staying with you so we can have sex with him."

The old man stepped outside and pleaded "No, my brothers, don't do such an evil thing. For this man is my guest, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this man's concubine. I will bring them out to you, an dyou can do whatever you like to them. But don't do such a shameful thing to this man.

The men wouldn't listen to the old man. But the Levite pushed his concubine out the door and the wicked men raped her and she died on the doorstep."

Same thing here. The violation of the law of hospitality as it was understood by those people. Again, a woman was put through hell and died because of this lack of respect for guests, and for women in general.

Can't you see that this isn't about sex, Homosexual OR Heterosexual,but about the lack of respect? (besides, these wicked men WEREN'T Homosexual because they raped women. Most Homosexual men find sex with a woman either impossible or at least, extremely distasteful.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


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Gecko
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"Do not practice homosexuality, it is a detestable sin"

The King James version says it this way (before alterations were made to the Bible to suit modern views of thought):

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind"

Heterosexual people were certainly being addressed here. People who were indulging in bestial practices as well - if you read on... It was 'sex with anything' out of the lust for sex alone.

If Homosexual people were being addressed as well, then it no doubt had something to do with the fact that there was a great need at this time to increase the population and anything which might interfere with that would be frowned upon. It is a cultural thing of the time. We are no longer living over 1000 years BC.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Joined: Oct 2005
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Parakeet
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Parakeet
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How about instead of looking at what Christianity says specifically about Homosexuality, maybe we should be asking what does the Bible say about Sex period.

OK -- I've done enough damage to this forum, someone else's turn to come up with what is sex, why sex and what does God say is good about it?

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Gecko
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"Am I the only one who has an issue with the fact that the dad was arrested because he wouldn't allow the book into his own home?"

No. That was a violation of a father's rights to decide what his child should and should not read. Ridiculous! Next thing they'll be arresting people for choosing what their kids watch on TV!


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


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Gecko
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"OK -- I've done enough damage to this forum, someone else's turn to come up with what is sex, why sex and what does God say is good about it?"

You haven't done any damage to this forum my friend. You have answered questions that were asked, and you have promoted honest debate. There's nothing wrong with that.

I commend you for the research you have gone to the trouble to put into this subject.

Sex should be something sacred. I believe that this is what the Bible is trying to show us.


Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
John Adams


Joined: Jul 2006
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Newbie
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Exactly Patience, I'm glad Carennedy posted those quotes, hell I asked for them. And nice answers Patience, I'm with you in that I believe that bible was trying to teach us to respect sex and each other. And if anyone believes those parts of the bible are about not being lustful generally, or using our bodies in an 'impure' way, outside of matrimony, then I have no problem with that, so long as they don't use that to attack gay people without throwing the same attacks at promiscuous straight people. I know you weren't attacking Carennedy, in fact your arguements were well balanced and thoughtful, thankyou. I just get a bit defensive because I have had a lot of people attack me (verbally) over the years (and given that I'm only 23, that's saying something!).

I also believe it was wrong to arrest the man who wouldn't let the book into his house, you can't force people to change and he has rights to do what he wants in his own house.

I know most of you are against me on this one but I still believe in educating children about different ways of life. I'm not saying go out of your way and make a big fuss about it, but maybe include examples of it in stories or in math problems, or whatever, the same way that they already do with different races. Just show kids that it is a normal way of life, I know not everyone agrees that it is, but I stand by it. I think it's a lot harder ot reverse prejudice than to instill it; if a person wants to believe something is wrong (for whatever reason) they will sooner or later, however if someone has no particular reason for believing something is wrong, surely it's better to teach them at an early age about tolerance, rather than have to try and teach them when they are older and likely to be stuck in their ways of thinking.

I don't know if that made much sense, but this is something I feel strongly about for personal reasons so sometimes I don't argue it very articulately. Basically what I'm saying is teach tolerance to all and the earlier the better on that front.

Last edited by battlekitten; 07/27/06 11:02 AM.

"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion." Abraham Lincoln.
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Parakeet
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Patience,

You are right that sex is sacred and the Bible does teach that it is wonderful. My church did a 3 week series on what God says about Sex. Homosexuality wasn't part of it. They talked about what the Bible says about Sex in marriage, sex outside of marriage, pornography. They added Cyber sex although the Bible didn't say anything directly about the internet there was lots on lust to back up why it was wrong.

In fact here are the three sermons on sex, if your interested in what the Bible says about sex.

http://www.rockpointe.ca/family/messages/sermons/sheets

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