I was looking at someone's My Space page today and this person is a SAHM. Tons of her baby's pictures are on there and there is even a time ticker saying that she has been breastfeeding for 8 months and 1 day with a little "Boobie Baby" time monitor on the ticker strip. I wanted to gag. This person's page has her biggest wish as "to meet more SAHM friends".

Ick! Ick! Ick!

My question is this - Why do I find the whole Baby/SAHM/baby picture/baby people thing so completely disturbing and unappealing?? I actually told my sister about this My Space person and I said "If this person's life was my life I'd want to stab myself! Holy [censored]!" Why do we all find it so unappealing?

I also have a friend and co-worker who used to talk about a lot of interesting topics - work, marriage, the drama and gossip that swarms around her neighborhood. Then, my friend had a baby. Sigh...now, all I hear is baby [censored] and all I see are baby pictures. Wow. Exciting. To top it all off, I have an interview for a new job with great potential and it is a wonderful opportunity. My friend/co-worker said "Do you really think it is a good time to switch jobs? What if you and your hubby want to have a baby soon?".

Again....sigh. My answer is, I can take a new job with a longer commute, better title and more money because I DON'T have kids. Kids are not on my radar. I just was wondering why it is NOT on any of our radar screens? What is it about the CF that makes childbearing and parenting so unwanted and unappealing? Why am I so "icked-out" by the SAHM's My Space page. I find her page very sad and boring. I know many of you can relate. Why does the baby stuff make us all want to run for the hills, kicking and screaming? It is interesting.

Honestly? The entire motherhood scenario has always sounded like a prison sentence to me. I'm completely baffled by women who revel in it. I simply don't get it.

I am very turned off by the idea of trading my life for one of drudgery, near- poverty, and constant motion. I'm lazy. I like to sit. I also like having a clean, quiet home.

I hate cleaning up after others. Just sweeping up after "Princess Litter-Kicker" on a daily basis makes me crazy, even though it takes less than 3 minutes of my day. (One day, I'm going to convince that cat that energetically digging down to the plastic and tossing loose litter all over the bathroom and hallway floors is NOT a requirement for doing her business!)

Also, I'm not very fond of children. Most kids are entirely welcome to get out of my line of sight/ range of hearing within five minutes of our first encounter.

And yea, I'm a step-parent. Fortunately, I'm a step-parent to a quiet, (somewhat) tidy child who isn't around everyday.

I wouldn't look at MySpace pages about day to day baby stuff or read baby blogs - that level of detail doesn't interest me.
It doesn't annoy me - I'm just not sufficiently interested to read through that stuff.

Feebee (one of our group) included in one of her posts a piece from her friend's baby blog - I didn't know these things existed...it amazed me that parents would send off this level of detail to everyone they know...
I could understand keeping a diary or a log for your own pleasure and reference or perhaps, sending it to grandparents or other "very interested" parties, that's all...

The question posed by your friend, after you mentioned you were thinking of changing your job ie. "What if you and hubby want to have a baby soon"...is often a convenient way of "opening" the topic...
I was offered a position years ago that involved lots of international travel. A colleague asked me a similar question...
She did that sort of thing every year or so - I guess to see if there had been a change of heart/attitude. It always amazed me just how interested she was in my life - she couldn't comprehend that a couple might choose not to have kids.
BTW I took the job and love it...really enjoy the travel.
Hope the job interview goes well.

PS On the friend that talks about her baby non stop...
It's a fact of life that things change - your best friend at 25 may not be your best friend at 35 or 45...your lives may move in opposite directions and you might have less in common and enjoy each other's company less and less...
We lost touch with friends who could only talk about their kids - it usually happens gradually - both parties make less effort to stay in touch.
I think you're more likely to include parents in your circle, if you share common interests - you both play tennis or love antiques...something
I have one friend (mother of 2)- we saw less of each other when her kids were small - she was a SAHM for 8 years so, it was hard to catch up for lunch or grab a drink after work.
Also, her entire world was her kids during those years.
This friend has now returned to the workforce and we meet for lunch once a month...she is so excited by the challenges of her new job that her children are no longer her only topic of conversation.
I also, know parents that have always been able to talk about a range of topics including their kids - not limited to their kids...
If your friend's focus remains quite narrow, I suspect you'll naturally, over time, see less of her.

I can relate jhmd SO much. I seriously do not understand it. The mommy culture is not appealing one bit. A friend who seems to feel sorry for me because I don't have kidswas describing things she loved about it once, and they were things like being in the stands at Little League games, and traveling to take their son to soccer tournaments. Even her high points sound awful to me.

These people who are desperate for SAHM friends strike me as dullards honestly, but if I had a kid I might want to hang out with them so my kid had someone to play with. I think that's what it's all about for them. If their personality is anything like those blogs, yawn!

Silly question, what does SAHM stand for? Anyway, I don't know why it's so unappealing, but it is : ) I used to have a friend whose life was all around her husband and kids, and it still makes me want to throw up. Even if I had a man and a family, still wouldn't build my world around them, men can decide tomorrow they don't want you anymore and kids (ideally) will grow up and leave.

Stay At Home Mom. SAHM.

I don't know why it's hideously unappealing to me, but it is. Even stories of childbirth make me cringe. I have some friends from high school who became parents, and they post comments to other parent friends of theirs about how bad the poopy diapers were that day. Seriously. I hate hearing SAHMs talk amongst themselves.

I had a good friend who wanted so badly to get pregnant. We used to party together, and then she told me she planned to quit everything to prepare for pregnancy. (I don't party anymore at this point, but that's beside the point.) I expressed that I wouldn't be so excited about it. Then she said that it'd be fun - I could help babysit and everything! You can imagine my response to that: ICK! She stopped answering my calls after that. Sad, but our friendship would have probably died after she had the kid anyway, just because I wouldn't have been interested and it would become her whole world.

Stay At Home Mom, and SAHD is Stay At Home Dad.

Why's it unappealing to me? Oh, the reasons are too numerous to count. I mostly attribute it to a deep-down core of my "self" that I've had since I knew to recognize it that I just didn't want kids, ever. That I didn't want to give up my identity to be "mom", that NO, the world does NOT revolve around your particular brat, and everyone else thinks that the world revolves around THEIR brat. I don't want to be responsible for decades out of my life to making sure that not only does that life I brought into the world makes it to maturity, but is a GOOD person. A good person who gives instead of sucking more out of the planet. I could probably do it, but holy [censored] would I be miserable while doing it.
As for that line "It's different when they're yours." I'd say "Yeah, you're right it is different...It's worse because I'm the one who did this to myself instead of being smart and NOT having a kid."

The main thing that puts me off is the complete focus on all things related to the kid. Some parents have no other interests. My SIL is like this. Her daughter does gymnastics and her whole life and social circle is about her daughter's gymnastics. She is a SAHM and all she talks about is her daughter and is offended when we don't want to do things that revolve around her gym activities. I also can't imagine being financially dependent on another person, which my SIL is and her husband always makes reference to.

I personally really like babies but not the gross bathroom issues and talks. eww. I'll play peek-a-boo for a few minutes and that satisfies my enjoyment of babies. Time to move on to a subject that both people can participate in and is intellectually stimulating.

Hi all. I hate the thought of never having time to myself to get away. I get desperate if I don't get time to shut myself off from the world and process everything in my brain. I get extremely irritable if I get too harassed by people or have too much in my social calendar. It's just who I am and how I am built - I have a creative and analystical mind and am over-sensitive to external stimuli. In my last job for four years I shared a tiny office with two other staff, one of whom was my assistant. We were literally 3 feet away from each other with no windows. I just about went crazy and some days I felt murderous. The thought of years and years of no mental space is what panicks me. And the thought of being sleep deprived for years. A colleague was recently going on about how during the first few years you get broken sleep.

When I was seriously contemplating motherhood a couple of years ago, I fast forwarded in my mind and thought about all the schooling events and obligations I would have to attend with other parents. Just the thought of that turned me right off. I could just about manage one well-behaved only child if they never had to be friends with other children who have parents. Also the other children btw, eg having to host birthday parties etc.

I know I was much more child friendly in my 20s. I should have done motherhood then if I was going to. But now I just have too much responsibility and am too exhausted. I also know myself a lot more and am less tolerant of what I will spend my time on.

Recently btw I went to see my friend's daughter in an aerobics competition. She is 8 and honestly it was like Little Miss Sunshine. She is sort of chubby and will never be an aerobics champ. The other kids - oh my goodness. I can't begin to explain how appalled I was by these 7, 8, 9 year old girls in little bikinis doing very erotic movements, and all the parents shouting and yelling from the seats. I just don't want to be part of that grotesque world.

ps I have really turned a corner in the last couple of weeks, followng my emotional Christmas. I am starting to feel genuinely CF and OK about it!

I find it very telling that people don't say "it's better when they're your own", just "it's different...". I'm sure that it is different, but what sort of a reason is that to jump in and do something your instincts are warning you against?

I have to admit, I had a weekend that made me want to run screaming from my own house. One of my husband's friends brought over his little boy. He's 4. He seemed to be able to respond one of two ways "yup" or "nup". I, at 26, can still remember being disciplined strongly if I ever spoke to an adult that way. His father seemed to think that since there was a female in a 20k radius that his responsibility had ended because, of course, I'd love the chance to play Mum. I should explain that his son is only his every second weekend and I have been told not to discipline him at all.

I didn't relish the opportunity and it went something like this:

Me: OK, C, let's watch a video. Have you seen X?
C: Yup
Me: Would you like to see it again?
C: Nup
Repeat above about 7 times
C: You don't have any kids movies do you?
Me: Sorry, no. How about watching one about Earth? There are some really cool animals
C: You don't have any cool movies.
Me (feeling somewhat put down by a 4 year old): Nope, guess we don't.
C: What are those (pointing at my husband's X-box games - which are lined up and alphabetised by my loving, but slightly neat freak husband)?
Me: They're Mick's special things. We aren't allowed to touch those?\
C: They're games. He'd let me
Me: Pretty sure he wouldn't. How about we just try to find a DVD?
C (as he climbs over the brand new leather lounge): I want that book
Me: Which book? Would you like to sit on the couch properly and read it?
C: Nup. You read it.
Me: OK then, which book would you like?
C (wiping snotty nose on arm whilst climbing over couch. I am having palpitations at this point): The koala book
Me (holding up book): This one might have a koala in it
C (looking at our lounge room and realising that he could step from the couch onto the sub, then the tv cabinet onto the left speaker then over onto the second level of our split level house): Nup. I want to play Mick's games. You ask him. He'd let me.
Me: I don't think he would
C (starting to make his move towards the sub): You ask him.
Me: Please sit on the couch properly. How about you watch some TV?
C: I want to play games
Me: C, you really need to sit down on the couch. Please don't step on that box, it will break and then you might get hurt. How about this? You sit there, I'll turn on the TV and I'll go outside and ask Mick?
C: Nup.
Me: Well, really there are no other options. You can either sit here and watch TV or read a book. I need to go outside to ask Mick and the puppies are playing out there. You're a little too small to play with them (which is a complete lie - they've played with other kids quite well but I was trying to escape).
C: He'll let me. You don't need to ask him
Me: Well, I don't know how to set it up and he won't let me play with it so I need to ask him anyway.
C: Put the tennis on. (I waited for a please, it never came)

I left the house and seriously, didn't want to come back in. When I did, after telling him that the answer from Mick was "NO" (resoundingly so - the man freaks if there's a fingerprint on something of his) he said, and I kid you not, "Bring him in here and ask him. He'll let me. You're lying".

That was my breaking point a) you're 4 and b) you're in my house. I, somewhat wrongly, told him to go outside and that he had to stand in the laundry whilst I let the dogs into the front area. If that door had a lock, the afternoon could have been very different. Mick wasn't the happiest that he had to deal with him for the afternoon and I had had enough. He continued to bother me (once his dad and my husband had had their fill) and now we have an agreement that I will get warning if he's ever to come over again. I will leave the house.

I used to work with children in my holidays, I used to volunteer with them but I do not want my own. The idea chills me to the bone. Occassionally I have those kodak moments where I think that it could be fun, but then I go into the real world. It's a lot grimmer most of the time.

Several years ago I worked in a job which I found very stressful; I dreaded going in and even my weekends suffered because by Saturday night I would start worrying about Monday morning. Eventually, I did the best thing for my sanity: I quit. Now, looking back, I shudder when I recall how that job made me feel. The relevance? I have a similar visceral reaction when I picture myself as a mother. The big difference, of course, is that parenthood isn't something you can quit when you've had enough, and you don't even get those brief evening/weekend respites.

There are many reasons why I feel like this. For a start, I don't really like children. If they're well-behaved, I can just about cope with them for a limited time, but I certainly don't seek out their company. Most of the children I see going about my everyday life make me profoundly grateful to be CF and not have "that" in my house. I know that I would loathe and resent the loss of freedom and personal time which parenthood entails; I am a loner by nature and cannot imagine being around another person 24 hours a day, particularly a human being whose personality could turn out to be incompatible with my own.

Having children limits your options in a way that does not appeal to me. After I left my job, I went back to university to pursue a subject which had long been my love - had I had children, I would probably have had to stick with a sensible job to pay the bills. I have no idea what the future holds, whether my academic pursuits will lead to anything long-term or not, but right now I'm enjoying doing what I do, and loving the fact that I can.

Sleep deprivation is also high on my list of undesirables. I don't function well without a decent amount of sleep - right now I'm suffering from a bad cold and haven't had a good night's sleep since Saturday. I'm feeling like a zombie and don't know how people do this for years on end.

There are plenty of other aspect of parenthood which don't appeal to me. What it all comes down to, though, is a simple lack of desire (or a presence of adamant un-desire) to be a mother, and to have my choices dictated by the majority. I'm deeply grateful to live in an age when choice is a real option, even if that choice isn't always accepted by others.

My best friend from high school..which has been a while b/c I am 37 and she is 38..anyway, she's got three kids...we have had times where we didn't talk as much but still kept in touch when the kids were really young. She new my desire not to have kids and never pushed her life on me. She never invited me to the parties are really talked a lot about them when we saw each other. I made time to go visit so the kids know me but I am not at parties, etc. She says she respects me and wants our friendship forever and that she tries really hard to keep her mind open when she is with me. Now, that is the only friend I really have with kids! Now, I try and meet and search for new friends w/o kids which is hard b/c all they have here in the suburbs are KIDS!!!! Kinda lonely.......

Kids make me very nervous! I hope I don't regret my decision and that is why I come to these sites b/c it helps me realize I am not alone...and I guess I maybe living with some of ya'll in retirement complexes b/c we will need people to take care of us when we get older since we don't have kids..heee...hee..

It's true that friendships change over time, I find it sad that once your friends decide to put up family, they drift away. Why? Because usually those "new" friends don't show up - especially once you get into a certain age bracket, 30 and above. There are just not that many CF people out there that you can hook up with anymore. It seems everybody is getting pulled into the baby trap. A very old gf of mine is now having her first baby (she is 42 and diabetic), always has been quite CF but is now bowing to her husband's demands (he absolutely wants one). She is not quite convinced, in fact, it's due in 7 wks and she has not even bought anything yet. We'll see how that works out.

I just think that any mother whose life revolves around their little ones is very limited in her personality. I just find them really boring. I always want to say to them "yes, you are special and your child is unique - just like all the other 8 Billion people on the planet!"

By the way, why is it when I see SAHM, I really see "sham" and when I see SAHD, I really see "sad"... mmmmhhhh

One of the things that makes SAHMs so unappealing to me is that they're not interested in other problems and worries anymore...
The only thing they care about are their kids...
Even their ability to listen to somebody dissapears when the first kid is born...

That drives me nuts...I often talked to friends about something important but their attention was on their kids.

I'm interested in so many things - I would love to upgrade my English ;), travel a lot, get another master degree,... but none of these things would be possible if I had kids...

Wow, why do we find it so unappealing... Hmmm. There are so many reasons. I don't find it stimulating - I think it's mind numbing, THANKLESS work. I'm with Myrabeth that I don't like cleaning up after other people. I'm also very selective about who lives in my home. I lived alone for a very long time and loved it. I would never choose a loud, messy, childish mate that didn't clean up after himself. These are some of the same reasons I don't want a baby living in my house.

My free time is precious, and I don't want to spend it with other kids and parents, doing kiddie things. I like doing this with my nephew some of the time, but I would go insane if that was my weekend. I'm 36 - what do I have in common with a baby LOL! Following someone around all day long, making sure they don't fall and kill themselves, eat things off of the ground, get kidnapped, feeding them, making sure they get a nap - NONE of this sounds interesting to me. I am a thinker, and as a mother I would be forced to think about really mundane things all the time. Like, Chef Boyardee or chicken nuggets for dinner. What stain remover is the best for getting out mud stains. I can't think of anything less interesting.

I find the whole idea of being a stay at home mother terrifying - truly terrifying. I joke about my 'worst nightmare' being a housewife and mother.... but it's true.

Firstly though, I would like to say I respect *parents* who make a choice to stay at home - I don't understand it, but then I don't understand the desire to procreate...

I'll break down my fear into manageable chunks :-D

1) I think I would feel less worthy as an adult

Again, I'd like to point out this is totally subjective and based on *my* feelings. However, getting pregnant is usually not a big deal.. you lie on your back, and hey presto... on the other hand, going to University or entering into a vocational training scheme... working your way up the career ladder all take dedication, comittment and sacrifice.

So, say in my case... I go to Uni for 7 years.. work in IT... and then I decide to pop out a couple of sprogs... rather than learning new things each day, using my skills in a variety of situations, having adult conversations about client solutions / working out accessibility problems.... I am housebound, my day revolves around the kids and my day is taken up with cleaning, tidying, baby stuff. My degrees are useless (I know the argument ' education is never wasted, I can use my education to pass on to my child...er... not unless you lecture them for 3 years , 8 hours, 5 days a week) and when, on the odd occasion I can go out with other adults and the question is asked ' so what do YOU do?' ... saying ' I stay at home and raise my child' isn't met with the same enthusiasm as ' I work as an IT consultant on various projects, in different roles all around the UK'.

I've *seen* men ask women this and as soon as the woman says ' Stay at home mother', they go ' Oh, that's nice' and basically exclude the woman from the rest of the convo.....

2) I never want to rely on someone else for financial support

I don't... I just don't. I don't want to have to ask my partner for money to buy a pair of jeans... nor do I want to ask my partner for money to get my nails done. Ahh the good old counter argument - 'We have a joint account, it's not *his* money.. it's *our* money.... Ok, so you'd be ok with buying a holiday online for you and your mate with *your* money without checking with your partner? How about buying a �500 camera on a whim? I can... as I work and it's my cash... and as long as the bills are paid etc... it's noones business what I spend my cash on.

Also, what happens if, after a few years... I find out my partner has been shagging someone else? where can I go? I have no money of my own... if my partner starts being unreasonable... going out and partying whilst leaving me at home with the child? calling me names? How can I escape if I don't have my own savings or a way to support myself? Ahh yes, we get the argument ' But those types of men are in the minority.. my partner would NEVER do that' - well, I don't think anyone expects their partner to be like that.. if they did, why have a child with them?

3) I would resent my partner

Ahh great, so I get pregnant and see my promotional prospects decrease by about 70% .... I have the child and decide to go back to work.. but wait, my partner thinks it's a good idea for one of us to stay at home - re.. me. No, he couldn't possibly give up *his* important career, no... but as I'm the one who give birth, it just makes 'sense' for me to give up my career... so I give up my career... watch as every month it makes it harder and harder for me to go back to work as the IT industry moves on very quickly... and see my partner getting promoted, more cash and I get baby sick and nappies to change.

I would resent my partner having an 8 hour day... when my day was 24/7 .. I would resent him having interesting challenges when my routine was boring and motonous... I would resent him becoming more successful in his chosen career.. whilst my title has been replaced with 'Mother'. 'What did you do today'? Oh.. not much, had a few client meetings, got asked to do a presentation for X clients so that we can move forward on this proof of concept work... what about you?' .. 'Oh, the same thing as the last 2 years..... ' Urgh.

No, no, no.....

*awaits all the flaming she's probably going to get :-D*

For the longest time I would see "CF" in the right margin of the screen at this site and I thought it meant Cystic Fibrosis. I dont understand why there is place at this site where women can trash other women because of their choice to have a child.

That would be a big one for me, too. I have always earned my own money and asking somebody else to hand me money (whether it's for legit reasons like food, healthcare etc or a splurge) would make me feel extremely uncomfortable.

I often think that a lot of women use a double standard when it comes to working in the home. If I was a SAHM, then that would be my job and I would try to do a good one. A perfect example of what NOT to do is my sister. SAHM with three kids. She has all day and basically gets nothing accomplished. Her husband is an engineer, works long hours, then when he gets home, she doesn't even let him catch his breath but is right on him with "do this - do that.... help x with her home work, make sure y puts his pjs and brushes his teeth, do the dishes after dinner, after all, I did the cooking" and so on. I feel really sorry for the guy. On top of that, he is such a sweetheart and never protests. I just think that if she uses HIS pay that he brings home from working his job, then she also needs to do HER job!

I don't see why there should be loads of forums devoted to Mothers / parents and toddlers / pregnancy... but there are.. as *like minded* people want to discuss certain issues relating to that topic....

Hi Becky,

I don't think these women are "trashing" eachother, in fact I've been with this site for over 4 years and they extend support and helping hands more than anything, really

Personal choice topics, call it "passion", may look on the surface, as if it's one side against the other, really we're all just venting and exploring our feelings on a deeper level in a place we can feel safe doing it. Something we may not otherwise have the option to do without being judged elsewhere, you know?

Like couples debating issues. It can get personal, but the intent usually isn't (in a healthy relationship anyway) to tear the person down but that doesn't mean one or the other doesn't get fired up. I love and share virtually everything with my fiance, but there is a part of me that, well wants to expose itself w/out being an us; a part that cries and has insane thoughts...lol, sometimes anyway

Elleise
Clairvoyance Editor

I know so many women whose lives completely revolve around their children. It seems to me that they completely lose their identity when they have kids. All of their other interests and hobbies go out the window. I would never want to lose my identity like that. To not have time for the things I enjoy, to not have the freedom to do what I want and when.
I wonder what they will do with themselves once the kids are grown and have their own lives?

I too, have always been a very quiet, private person, and I often hold people off at a distance. I think if I had children, they would feel alienated from me, despite my best efforts.

Also, my husband and I have the relationship that we have because we're not so distracted by children. We can both spend hours talking to each other about our day and what we're thinking/hoping for, without being interrupted by kids.

I am a sickly person and I need a lot of sleep. I wouldn't have the energy for a child.

What I know is that I like my privacy as well. I like the ability to do nothing, if need be, in silence. I like the ability to have an adult level conversation with DW and not have to worry if a "bad word" that is appropriate in context, comes out.

Most importantly, I know that I would not want to be a father to a mini-me. I remember what a strain I put on my parents, just being a normal boy. And I was a good kid, for the most part. If I had to summarize my objections to becoming a parent in a few short sentences, that is it.

I like my privacy and my down time. DH & I spend plenty of time together when we're both off of work during the evenings and weekends, but we also spend time apart in different areas of the house, doing our own thing, and that's great. We are also very careful about how we treat fragile objects/collectibles/furniture, etc. Having a child would put all of that stuff (call us selfish) that we worked hard to attain, at risk. When our friends with a very curious, wild toddler come over, we'd have to child-proof our already kitty-proof house, and some of that involved hiding various cat toys that he could break or put in bad places (he liked putting a couple of the cats' sparkly toy balls in some of our speakers!).

The idea that we'd both go to work each day, and then have to come home and continue to be "on" until the little spawn goes to sleep just repulses me. We have a routine through the work week, which involves us coming home, working out, showering/getting ready for bed, eating, and watching some good stuff on TV/playing on the Internet/whatever comes up. We go to bed at a decent hour because we have to get up early for work each day.

I know that although my DH would do his best to raise whatever spawn we would have, I would end up stuck with a lot of the grunt work, simply because I am the more organized, responsible one of the two of us. I remember things and make reminders for my DH, who I believe would lose his head if it weren't attached, and I can't imagine having to do that for a totally dependent mini-me. I am the one who remembers when to trim the cats' claws (every 10-12 days), as well as all of the other household chores that regularly have to be done.

I also love to sleep, and on the weekends, I can regularly sleep in, unless we have someplace to be early in the morning. That is wonderful, and I wouldn't want to give that up. I think that the general loss of freedom I would feel by having a child would be too much for me to take, and besides the fact that the whole pregnancy/childbirth process would take a huge toll on me physically and emotionally, I think having kids is unappealing because of the fact that virtually no aspect of my life would ever be the same again. The fact that I see more negatives than positives to the choice to have kids is what points me more and more to being 100% CF.

We like to get up for breakfast on the weekend, have our breakfast in the kitchen, then afterwards go right back to bed... for reading, cuddling or whatever. And we can just spend as much time there as we like. How can you beat that!

I agree with all of you, and related so much to Linux Lady's part at the end about resenting her partner. That is another big one for me. I would resent the world, not just him! I realized it when I was trying to conceive, and constantly was getting questioned by husband and doctors about every product I use, food I eat, what kind of exercise I do, etc. And they had a right to be concerned about how I treat my body, because it is no longer just me. I want to be healthy to be healthy, not because if I don't I might damage my fetus or some other result too horrible to think about. That is a lot of pressure. I could only imagine what it would be like once I had the baby! My partner could argue that it's best for me to do ________(fill in blank with something I hate) for the sake of the baby, and I would feel much more obligated to be pushed aound. It gives people outside of me (mainly the father) a much bigger right to have a say in how I eat, etc., because he will be equally responsible for the child I give birth to. That was very frightening to me, and felt like a fundamental LOSS of my freedom and personal choice.

No offense to moms intended. These are my personal feelings about becoming a mother, which I've been under extreme pressure to do. If you really don't want to be a doctor, and need to talk about your feelings about that, I wouldn't hold that against you or say, "Why are you bashing doctors?" It has no relevance.

I think it's that loss of freedom that's also a big issue for me. Right now I am turning my life completely around. I had always considered myself a solely creative person, but I have decided to reinvent myself and get an education in the technical side. It requires practically re-wiring my mind and habits.

If I had a little helpless person that I was responsible for, all of my attention would be on that person. By the time I got them through their youngest years, I'd be in my late thirties and it would be a WHOLE lot harder to go back to school.

When people ask me "why don't you like children?" I often reply "I dunno. For the same reason I don't like brussel sprouts?"

It's about that simple for me. Two things I'd rather avoid like the plague. Makes perfect sense to me, no justification needed.

Hey Manatee

Just out of interest... what academic pursuits are you following?

I'm Ogriv. I've been lurking a lot lately, but I also posted about a month ago for the first time after a horrendous visit to my godchildren. I was amazed at how articulate and compassionate everyone was on here. I was almost embarrassed at how much people were interested in my rant!

The reason I'm intrigued about your academic stuff? I'm 70-30 against having kids (I'm nearly 35) and one of the things I'm agonising over right now is whether to do a psychology PhD and then trying to get work in academia as a lecturer/researcher. I think I would love teaching. I'm more attracted to that than the other option i.e. becoming an applied psychologist who works with people (probably because my current job is in social care... my clients are very chaotic and I don't see much positive change).

But doing the PhD doesn't necessarily mean a secure job with good pay. The applied route does - people to look after the unfortunate will always be in high demand. Of course, when you get to your mid-30s there are many notions of what you should have accomplished by that age... often more security and possessions, the whole shebang. I'm not necessarily against security and possessions, but not if they trap me in a job which is unstimulating. I suspect I'll end up following my heart and doing the PhD - after all, as you say, that's the luxury of not having children... you can follow your dreams. It sounds like you're loving the choice you made - am I right?

Hi Ogriv,

It's nice to have you on the board. Yes, I agree that the decision isn't always easy - I too have moments when I wonder what I'm doing with my life, and whether I shouldn't just grit my teeth and get on with a job to achieve the sort of security you've talked about, rather than doing something fun with uncertain prospects... On the other hand, I believe that we only have one shot at life, so it's important to do what you think will make you happy. I used to work as a lawyer, and although that job provided great security, it also made me miserable. I'm much happier now, although I do still worry about the future sometimes.

I'm graduating this year with a BA in Ancient History and Egyptology, and planning to go on to do an MA and eventually a PhD (although this is to some extent dependent on whether or not I can secure funding). What I would do after the PhD is more nebulous; my tutor seems to think that I will go into academia and teaching, but I'm not so sure. My dream job would be to work in the British Museum (I study in London), so we shall see!

Good luck with reaching the right decision for you. Is there any way to pursue a PhD while keeping your options open on the applied front, or are the two paths mutually exclusive? Sorry if this is a stupid question - psychology is not a career I know anything about!

Oh, ha ha!

Seriously. Maybe I should start lurking on the parenthood sites and make fun of them for sharing their feelings. Oh, wait. I'm not discourteous, nor do I misinterpret other people who are simply communicating with those who actually understand them.

I saw a van today that said CF in the back window! It was written on the window in green. I was wondering why it would be there, or if it meant something else.

That comment was funny though, because she must have been thinking, "Boy, people with Cystic Fibrosis sure have a lot of weird things to talk about!"

hee hee

I REALLY admire EVERYONE on this board for their academic achievements. I really value education and higher learning, and I'm so proud to be surrounded by so many like-minded people.

I have been thinking lately about how I want to go back to school to get a degree in biology. (I already have an MA in communication.) I am HORRIBLE at math, and it would be a real challenge. Also, money is a huge factor, and time. I certainly don't have time or money right now. But it is something I want to do in the future. I guess, to me, getting that degree is like how some women feel about having a baby. You don't want to wait too long because then you maybe can't conceive (i.e. will have a harder time remembering all that stuff you learned before.) And you can't afford a baby, but you can never afford a baby (just like school is so expensive.) However, unlike a baby, you can get some of that money back when you have a job!

Also, I want to touch on the SAHM issue. This is just a personal feeling, and I'm sure I'll have moms SOOO super mad at me. But to me, if you're a SAHM, what is your contribution to the world? You are basically a slave to someone else 24/7. I feel really bad for moms who are SAHMS. It's like they're admitting that they're nothing more than a baby machine. Have baby. Take care of baby. Repeat. That's what animals do.

To be living a fulfilling human existence, you need more, at least in my opinion. A job is so much more than just bringing in money. It can be fulfilling and enriching if you have the right position. And if you don't, you can go to school and become qualified for the position you WANT. And if you are a mother, you can still have a meaningful existence outside of having children. That's the beauty of being a modern woman.

If I was a SAHM, at the end of my life I would look back and say, "what difference did I make in this world?" And the answer would be "raising kids who will fulfill the dreams I never could."

So that's how I feel. It's harsh, but true. If you really want to waste the life you were given, you remember, that "miracle" that your mother produced, sitting at home watching Billy make mud pies for the 50th time that week, then you have my blessing.

Right now, I make a difference in this world. It's a small difference now, but eventually it will be greater, I hope. I work for and fully believe in an organization that is making a huge difference in conservation, animal education, etc., and through my videography I help spread that message.

Not that I'd ever expect for anyone to know who I am, but here's a good analogy.

When you think about people who have really made a difference in this world, who have made it a better place, who do you think about? Einstein, Lincoln, Washington, Jackson (that's Peter, not Andrew :-) You don't hear about "when Einstein's mother was raising him ... when Washington's mother was raising him ..."

And that is why I would NEVER EVER EVER be a SAHM if I ever decided to get pregnant.

OMG, FBGB, I could have written your post! I don't know how I missed this earlier. I can't remember if we've ever bonded over this similarity before. I know a lot of us are similar in a lot of ways on this board. This is what people don't get when I say parenting isn't for me, and it isn't my responsibility to explain it to others. It's just how I am. I bet there are others that are like us, and don't realize it, and have kids, and go insane b/c they have no time to think, breathe, or do anything.

I am also very private and need space, and have been in similar work situations. It's awful. Corporate America is moving in the direction of more cubicles, and it just isn't dignifed. People should have some personal space and breathing room. We're human beings, not animals at the zoo. I literally had a job where I shared a workspace that was the size of the backseat of a car. Adding insult to injury, the woman sharing this workspace with me weighed, literally, I'm not exaggerating, about 500 lbs. It was *ridiculous*. I complained and ultimately got a better work space. And I didn't care if I wasn't pc. The facts are, if you weigh 500 lbs., you need your own work space.

I hate that you can't make a short phone call. Even if it isn't necessarily a private issue, I just don't like everyone in my business. I wouldn't be able to be very creative if I was constantly worrying about meeting someone's physical demands. I would literally cry my eyes out every day. I would hate parenting so much.

Someone like my MIL would love that environmental b/c she loves being in other people's business and doesn't care about her own privacy. I can't even relate to this way of being. Go figure.

I agree with you both! I could have written the part about needing time to shut out the world and just be by myself. I NEED alone time. I crave it. I am extremely [censored] without it, and I start to feel like I'm not completely together. ... Ok, I tried coming up with a good analogy, but none of them fit.

When I worked at the place I still call hell (I believe I've posted before about how horrible it was), I was irritable all the time. Not just because the workplace was so needlessly stressful, but because I never had alone time while I worked there. My hubby and I had the same schedule so I rarely was alone at home. I shared an office with someone else - constantly someone new - and it wasn't bad at times, but I resented the lack of privacy and having to deal with another person's quirks. One woman used a space heater even in the summertime, and I tend to run hotter than others so it was torture for me. A guy ate sardines for an afternoon snack EVERYDAY. Another woman prayed over my head... and I'm not religious. And I'm off on a tangent here.

Anyway, now I have a great job with mostly wonderful people, but I have the option to work from home and take it whenever I can. I can't believe the difference in me. I'm more balanced (as much as I believe I can be, ha ha), have much more patience, and relax more. I don't party anymore, and it's great! I just can't keep the social calendar that I used to because it's too much, and that's okay with me. Is this part of aging or what? I used to enjoy being around lots of people, and now I avoid it as much as possible.

I am exactly like this too!!!

I had to share an office with a woman who they found through a welfare to work program for single mothers. I got to sit there and listen to her life fall apart around constantly, and got in trouble for chatting when we should have been working because she would not shut up. I will do my best to refuse sharing office space ever again.

Here's another thought about SAHM-dom that will I hope does not generate any flames. If I were a guy, and a woman I was dating told me she wanted to get married, have children, and be a SAHM, I would have a hard not time not viewing that as gold-digging. It's like telling someone up front, "I want to be dependent on you completely, and to have an equal share of all your money while you keep working." I can see the allure, but to me it's never felt equal. I would want to be a stay at home mom IF I had kids, and I feel like it's better for the kids, I just think it's a screwed up system and I'm not sure how it can be improved.

Me too! I like one on one situations, but I don't overdose on them. When my parents were down here over the long weekend, I was exhausted by the time they left. We had a great visit - my Dad was so relaxed b/c my nephew wasn't with them. He's a completely different person sans kids. But I'm getting off topic.

But I know part of it was that I didn't have any down time! And, we were going constantly, sight seeing, eating out, etc. My uncle and aunt were here, too, and I love them, but I just got burned out on all the social stuff.

This is another rarity I think about some of the people on this board. Most people need someone around at all times even if they don't necessarily like the person! I'm exactly the opposite. I hate meaningless social activities, and talking about nothing.

I know I'm on a roll with MIL today, so sorry about that in advance. But that's another reason I can't identify with her. She's into gossiping about everyone and I don't care! None of the gossip is that interesting and it's mean spirited. I don't want to talk about real stuff, and I have so little to contribute on the surface level. I just don't care about a lot of small talk.

YES! I have too many projects to get done to go sit at someone's house and do nothing. I feel so worthless when I sit around, and I've done enough of that in the last few weeks, so why would I do that???

Exactly!!! A friend of mine is currently in college (he went back later in life) and he came home recently, and I invited him to come over. He said he also was planning to go to someone else's house who I sort of knew in high school, and asked if I wanted to go over there and "hang out". I couldn't believe the feeling I had at simply being asked! My response was, "I don't really go to other people's houses and hang out anymore." Sounded sad and antisocial, but I realize that it's true. Most of our friends come to our house.

You're totally right, lngilbert, about not wanting to waste time talking about nothing. I have come to think that life is too short and important to throw time away on people I don't really want to be around. Too many projects to do, too many games on the Wii to play, too many books to read, etc.

A woman I used to work with had created an unusual set up for her family. She and her husband both had the kinds of careers that could be set to the backburner for a year or so, so they took advantage of it. When their son was born, she stayed home with him for a year while her husband worked. Then they switched places and he was a SAHD for a year.

The plan was to alternate years until the boy was in first grade. By then, they hoped to have a plan worked out for which parent would be responsible for arranging work days that ended about the same time as the school day (if they didn't decide to get an afternoon sitter) I lost touch with her before the kid started school, so I don't know how that last part worked out, but I know they both had a blast raising their son during his early years. They each had plenty of time to enjoy the kid, take care of kid and home, and work to take care of each other. The whole family seemed happy.

wow, what a great thread! you are such a great group of people.

most of what i would have said has been said, but here's one thing i wanted to throw in there:

when i hear that being a SAHM is "better for the child," this thought comes to mind . . . [putting on devil's advocate cloak]:
what if, in some cases, it's NOT better? separate from the fact that it might be difficult for the woman and/or the man and/or the couple, is it always necessarily better for the child? consider the possibility that a child who is used to having every single need met exactly when he/she requests it. is this realistic? is this a good lesson, or a set up for the child to be disappointed in the real world and/or become spoiled & entitled and/or overly-dependent. (i'm talking about children who are a bit older, not infants, mind you.) what about the benefits of a child learning from his working parents what it means to be independent, take care of oneself, have outside interests, balance different parts of life? i think the potential for a co-dependent relationship b/w SAHparent and child is there as well. also, i know a SAHM who is burnt out b/c it's constant need, constant work and i wonder if she might have better interactions with her kids if she had a break from them. is she communicating that she is exasperated, or sick of them, even without realizing it? i NEED my alone time from my partner and after we have it, i appreciate him more. i think it would be the same with parents and kids.

keep in mind that i believe that in some cases, for some parents, some kids, certain parenting styles . . . that having a stay at home parent might be the best scenario. what i'm challenging is the ASSUMPTION that that is always what's best. thoughts?

You brought up a good point, and one that I think parents are guilty when the feel that way.
I know for sure one of my friends who has kids (who has issues with guilt trips to begin with) kept fretting over having to work and not stay at home with her kids because they simply couldn't afford it. The thing is, she would go insane, and make me go insane by complaining to me and not doing anything about it.
Since she lives in an apartment, there's NOWHERE she could go to get a five minute break, the kids even follow her in the bathroom (ew!). Yet when she's working, she just keeps thinking about all the things she's "missing out on", and how they need her and so on, when in reality after some time away from them she's a much better mom since she wants to see them! If you're with them 24 hrs a day you get sick of them, but parents seem to think they should be above that or something.

That is great. That is exactly how I would want it to be in a perfect world, if I were raising kids. Either that or the commune/village concept that helped spread the work around and for support. That was the point I was trying to get to actually, but hadn't really made it. I meant to say at the end, that if I was the kind of guy who wanted kids, it's not that I would refuse to marry anyone who valued staying home with the kid, because I think that is important for the child. I just rebel against the concept of it always having to be the man who earns the money and the wife gets to give up regular jobs forever. If she never wanted to go back to work ever (and lots of people seem to be like this), I would feel used.

I mentioned my in-laws already, but as I said before, neither parent stayed home with my DH and he turned out VERY well. It was just presented that because mom is a nurse and dad is a firefighter, that's the way things are. I don't think it ever occured to DH to complain.

This is a very cool thread. I don't know what the perfect set up would look like. But I know my nephew was in daycare, and I believe it was a positive experience for him. I know they didn't always get to him right away, and that was a good thing. My sister is really neglectful, which has actually taught my nephew to be very independent and to figure things out for himself. He kind of has both extremes, b/c when he's at my Mom's house, he's the prince.

I have noticed just in the kids that I personally know that the kids that are at home with their Mom or a nanny seem less outgoing. I think daycare is great b/c it teaches kids to socialize with other kids. I've been around when my nephew is with these kids, and it's a major contrast. He even pulled me aside once and asked me what was "wrong" with another kid. I explained that not everyone is as outgoing as he is, and that the other kid was just different from him, but not wrong. I guess any extreme can be bad, though.

I would not like this if I was a guy. I would run from the aspiring SAHM, or SHAM as someone said earlier. Staying at home was once the norm, but it's ridiculous for people to assume men will go for that now. I like the scenario described where one parent stays home one year, and another the next. It's important for everyone to maintain their skill set and self esteem. We've talked about this before on here, that some women are frightened of the work world. And I've got to think there are other underlying issues if someone is afraid to try to make it in the "real world." What else are they hiding from? I'm not saying all SAHPs are like this. I really think the traditional set up is unhealthy. It's really sad. Many of the women I know in their 50s -70s have lived a life that has been all about housework and childcare. That sucks! It's no wonder so many of them are lost in retirement - no one left for them to take care of. I know people that are very comfortable in their retirement and they are bored to tears b/c they don't have any interests. It's so depressing!

And what about women who's lives completely revolve around their work, or hobby, or whatever? Do they lose their identity too? This subject makes me so angry. You mention freedom. Yes, we are free to chose to have children or not but I dont think It is right to use our freedom to bash another woman's choice.

BTW, some ppl here say some pretty horrible things and it leaves me wondering what kind of parents raised you. Perhaps they would have been better off childless!!!

My DH's mom was a SAHM for about 10 years, I think. DH can do nothing for himself. She did EVERYTHING for her kids, which I think is VERY unhealthy.

I also have two friends whose mom was mostly a SAHM (she also did a little subbing on the side.) She quit her career when she had the kids (DH makes a LOT of money, though.) Both kids are now far, far away. One is in LA, the other is in Italy. She is kind of lost without them. I feel bad because she just gave up her life for the kids and now they're gone (one is pursuing acting, the other has a fantastic job.) It's like, what now? I hear she is really lonely.

My dad's mom was a SAHM mom while my mom's mother was not. Dad's mom, though, dropped out of high school when she was 16. When I was a little kid I thought she was a SAHM because she wasn't very smart enough to have a job (I feel bad for having thought this, so I've made a point of getting to know her better.)

I guess those experiences are what makes me think that being a SAHM is a bad idea.

As far as daycare, I think it's awesome. My sister used to get free babysitting services from her family - it was worked out to have a different sitter every day, which my nephew loved (I had him on Thursdays.) But she decided to put him in daycare because he wasn't getting socialized enough and couldn't play with other kids, and he LOVES going to daycare. I really think it's necessary for kids to learn those skills, and I think daycare is a great place to learn them, especially a home daycare (although I don't know how those women do it!)

I am really getting tired of explaining things to trolls. Could the moderators maybe do something about this? We have to say the same things over and over again, and then a new troll who didn't read the previous explanation comes in and starts it up again.

This is not about you. You have lots and lots of mommy sites to go to. Go there now and leave us alone.

I have no need for mommy sites, but ty for the suggestion.

If you don't like it, don't read it!

[/quote]
And what about women who's lives completely revolve around their work, or hobby, or whatever? Do they lose their identity too? This subject makes me so angry. You mention freedom. Yes, we are free to chose to have children or not but I dont think It is right to use our freedom to bash another woman's choice.

BTW, some ppl here say some pretty horrible things and it leaves me wondering what kind of parents raised you. Perhaps they would have been better off childless!!![/quote]

Becky, I think what a lot of people here are exasperated about is those folks who just have ONE hobby/focus anymore. It doesn't really matter what that is. A person who just focuses on their children and nothing else is just as annoying as the person who JUST focuses on their career, or JUST on shopping, or JUST on fitness. They are very one-dimensional and not very interesting to talk to, especially when you don't share their interests. Imagine a friend of yours who is really into stamp-collecting, and every time, (EVERY SINGLE TIME) you see them, that's all they talk about. Maybe you would find it boring after a while.

I just went through this conversation on another CHILD-FREE BY CHOICE website. I was so happy, well I thought, to find these websites thinking I could actually have discussions without having to deal with woman w/children who put in their comments about our posting on a website that is suppose to be CFBC. IS this a debating board? I was not looking for that. I wanted to have a place I could go w/o being judged or debated with for not having kids. I am really getting disappointed and I guess there really aren't any places to go that is separated from parents????? Verynicebecky...why are you on this board? You don't agree with our lifestyle and the way wer feel...are you just looking for a debate?

My mom was a SAHM for my brother and myself when we were little. This was in the 70s, so maybe it was more common then. I'm glad she did, because I was kind of a sensitive kid, and I don't know how I would have handled daycare. But, maybe if I had never known any different, it would have been okay. I did go to pre-school/Mother's Day Out so I had social skills with other kids when I started school. Plus, I played with the neighborhood kids. Once we got into elementary school my mom worked part-time and did PTA stuff. It would have been hard for her to have a career since we moved around every 4 years or so due to my dad's job. When my brother and I got into high school, my mom started working full time, then when I graduated, she became a flight attendant, fulfilling a dream she'd had to give up when she married in the 1960s. So, she didn't pine away when she no longer had kids to look after.

I think things are different now, and it's hard for many families to raise kids on one income, and couples often split before the kids are grown, so daycare is often more of a necessity. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, but it depends on the circumstances of the family. I guess I do feel that babies/little kids benefit from having a parent take care of them. Day care is so expensive, I know I would hate to work just to give most of my income to a day care center, if I were a parent. I'm glad I'll never have that decision to make, anyway!

Cindy

Jzel, every once in a while we get these drive-bys. They are just trolls who have no lives. (Probably because they are SAHMs with nothing better to do with their time. Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm getting edgy.)

We tend to get very, very upset when trolls come on here and say some nasty things. We are VERY defensive sometimes and will come to the aid of a fellow poster who is getting flamed. Luckily, it doesn't happen too often, although it seems like we've had more than our share in the last few weeks.

She's not looking for a debate. Like I said, she has nothing better to do with her time. She probably doesn't even have kids. She probably just goes around to different boards posting negative replies to whatever the current topic is.

Just wanted to make sure everybody is clear that the other Becky is definitely not me, Becki ... just in case!

I absolutely agree. I think if a mom can be a SAHM and still have other interests, then that is fantastic. I just don't like seeing SAHMs doing EVERYTHING for their kids, or giving up all their interests because they have kids. You aren't doing either yourself or your kids a favor!!

Hello Fatina. First off let me say that I began to read these thread because CF stands for Cystic Fibrosis and I thought that was what was being discussed here. LOL.

I completely understand what you are saying when all ppl want to do is talk about one subject, all of the time. I do get annoyed when I hear ppl go on and on about their children, their children's accomplishments, etc, but I dont go out and bash them. I have to politely listen to a friend go on and on about her dogs. I personally am tired of seeing dogs and other pets being treated like children. I cringe when I hear of someone haveing multiple dogs, but I dont find an avenue someplace to go and bash these ppl. Do you see what I am saying? I don't have a problem with ppl who chose to be "CF." I date a widower and he has his now deceased wife choose to not have children. That certainly doesnt offend me. What does offend me is reading comments (especially from woman) that are negative towards another woman's choice, especially on what is deemed to be a woman's support forum. I have never visited a "mommy support" forum before but I doubt they are there to bash women who have made the decision to remain childless. If you came to this thread to discuss being "CF" then why not discuss that and what you do rather than bash other women?

Well, I as sit here and look at my two fur-babies nap and how sweet they look...I think to myself..that I want to be able to come and say things like that and not have to hear from some mom that..could I just imagine if they were "real kids" and how sweet that would be? (did any of that make since) I hope she stops "trolling" and moves on.

Okay, so my brain moves faster than my fingers and I am a little hyper so my e-mails maybe a little all over the place. I am actually educated..just a little crazy and high strung hee..hee...

K. I am out and looking to find where the real CF (Cystic Fibrosis) is being discussed. I did not mean to troll. I wish you all with your lives and I do hope that you will be a bit more considerate of other woman's choices in life.

I know the first reaction when we get a troll is to defend ourselves and respond to them, but I wonder if we just ignored them, and didn't respond to their posts, would they give up and go away? Besides, the name of the forum is "Married No Kids" not "CF". I see very little real bashing going on here...there are plenty of childfree boards you can go to if that's what you're after. This one is pretty respectful, I think. We don't go on the parenting forums and tell parents they're doing it all wrong, or that they made a mistake by having kids. We don't have to go on a forum to be bashed for our decision not to have kids, most of us have dealt with that in person, to our faces. This is our venting place, and if people don't agree with the way we vent, there is a whole Internet out there they can explore to find something they agree with.

Cindy

verynicebecky, I think you are missing the point. On this site, I think I speak for most of us who choose to remain CF when I say that we feel safe to "vent" or to talk about our feelings in this very kid-centric world. A lot of the people in our daily lives wouldn't necessarily understand if we come out and say things like, "That does not appeal to me at all," or "I'd rather not do that with my life," when they start to talk about raising their children/staying at home from work/being pregnant, etc. Usually, if we're truthful and say how we feel about the "to breed or not to breed" question, we get bashed by our supposed friends/family, or they bombard us with bingos, such as "You'll change your mind" or "It's different when they're your own", etc. When we come here, we can express ourselves freely and we expect not to be judged, which I think is the whole point of dedicating one part of BellaOnline to people who wish to remain CF and are happy with it.

As others have said, if it offends you, you don't have to read it. I wouldn't go into an overly religious forum and start bashing all of those people for their choice to follow organized religion, though I do not agree with it, so I don't think it's "very nice" of you to come in here and claim that we bash women, which we do not.

Thanks everyone for trying to explain "us" to another troll. I'm taking Cindy's approach with this one. I'm so sick of trying explain, debate, whatever these people want, and they never ever ever ever listen or try to understand what this forum is about. It just ends up making me feel worse for wasting time dealing with them. I usually want to respond so the person getting flamed doesn't feel abandoned by us, but in this case at least the troll is mad at all of us (and the whole concept of CF), not just one single person. So notverynicebecky, LATES!

Well, I guess I am on the wrong site as well. I was looking for CF. I don't appreciate the comment made about pets. I

jzel, I'm not sure if you're referring to comments by the troll, but if so, we feel the same way you do. My pets are my babies, and so what if they're not human. They're what I have, and I'm going to love them as much as they deserve, no matter who thinks I'm "wasting" my love on an animal instead of a human. I can't relate to people who treat animals like an inferior species. In fact, when I hear people say that I avoid them because I realize they're not a kind person. What was up with that comment about having more than 1 dog makes her cringe?? What business could it possibly be of hers? Anyway, I hope you'll ignore this troll and not let her drive you away, though I understand it's disheartening. The people here are childfree, childless, non-parents, fencesitters, a lot of things.

Well, I guess I am on the wrong site. I was looking for a place to discuss being child-free with other child-free woman. I don't want to get into conversations with moms regarding being a mom nor hear their opinion on being a mom. I went through a lot to make this decision and don't need people challenging me on it..nor do I want to read about other ppl being challenged on it.

I don't appreciate the comment about pets...I love my dogs and can't imagine my life w/o them. That is why I WOULD NOT go on a mommy board and make comments about ppls children. I guess I will look for more CF boards that only CF ppl post and not tolerate ppl w/children to challenge us.

I've thought a lot about if it would be better to find a site that was restricted so mom's couldn't get here, but then other CF's who need support wouldn't be able to find us. I think it's worth it to keep the doors open, and just ignore the jerks. I'm sorry this person hurt your feelings.

Frieda7, I posted again b/f I had a chance to read you response. I guess her pet response put me over the edge. I maybe a little "different" when it comes to my fur babies but I don't really care. I do treat them like babies in the mind of other ppl but again, don't care. My little Sammie was a pound puppy and was dropped off at a gas station when he was just a little baby. He was starving and had fleas all over him. My little Jack-Jack was dropped off at the pound and was fostered so many times and was re-named so many times. Poor thing was so confused when I got him. He was/is a bit challenged but makes progress everyday. AND Becky, I want to adopt more....and plan too.

Verynicebecky-
Well, since you originally quoted me when you started this, I think I should respond.

First of all, I was in no way bashing moms or SAHM. I love kids, I have nieces and nephews I adore and I would never trash a woman's decision to have children. I have just decided that it is not for me. I am not highly career oriented. I only work part-time presently.
My mom was a SAHM and I'm grateful for that. My parents are incredible people. I think being a full time mom is quite respectable as long as the woman does not lose her identity in her children. I've seen women give up all of their other interests when they have kids and it's sad. I've also seen women who were able to be great mothers and still have their own interests aside from that. I think that's healthier.

I want more pets too! I would adopt them right now if I wasn't hoping to travel at some point in my life. I think she's insane about that. She must just not like animals, which says a lot about her. When children can't connect with animals it can be a sign that they are a sociopath. So, I think we're in the right here.

Maybe you should read a little more widely, becky, because sites like this exist for a reason. We get a little sick of being called, on mommy sites and to our faces, "sterile", "barren", "heartless", "screwed up", "selfish", "self absorbed" and on and on and on. Just because we've made the decision not to have children, a surprising number of people find that offensive and assume it's their right to tell us all about it. So this is our little haven, where we can come and talk to other people who totally get it, because 80% of society doesn't.

Human nature being what it is, you dis people, you should expect to get dissed back. We get dissed a lot. Unfortunate, but true.
It's also unfortunate that women in particular just can't seem to be supportive. Mothers bash us, but they also bash each other, and it's pretty sad and pathetic.

Just for a laugh, you could try this - go and post on a parent site and put the word "childfree" in there somewhere, and watch the vitriol start to fly. I think you'd be truly shocked.

For myself, if I don't like it, I don't read it. I don't go onto parent sites or baby sites or religious sites, because I know I'm not going to like what I see, and it doesn't really matter to me anyway. Live and let live.

Trolls...bleh...

Do dumb to read the title of the forum.
Do immature to mind their own business.
Too much of a coward to admit their life sucks.
So they attack..cuz thats all they can do.

Well, I think Becky went away. Yes, traveling is a bit challenging. We leave for CO this saturday and I have to put them in "day care" all week. I don't like it, but it is all I can do. When we only go away for the weekend I have a sitter that comes several times a day to walk, feed and play with them, but a 7-8 day trip, the cost would kill us...if we take a driving trip we take them with us.

Jzel,

I think you'll find that those of us here who have pets consider them our babies. I have three rescued dogs myself who were other people's "throwaways". Check out the thread about "What we look like" and see how many of us posted links to our pets. I think you are in the right place, this is the nicest group of childfree people I've found online. Just don't let the occasional parent who has to put in their two cents get you down. Let's just ignore them, don't give them the satisfaction of thinking they got to us.

Cindy

Also, I believe when you take responsibility for a life, whether it's human or animal, you have the responsibility to make sure that life is as safe, healthy and happy as possible, and it's a commitment for the extent of that life, not just "as long as it's convenient" or whatever.

Cindy

Yes. And when you said "other people's throwaways" I thought it was worth mentioning how often that happens when people have children. It figures into my reasons for not wanting children, although I know people who don't connect with animals the way I do think I'm crazy for feeling that way. I could have a baby with pet allergies (like my brother) and never get to have a dog or cat again until the child grows up. I don't know, is that putting my priorities in the wrong place? Perhaps. It's not the whole reason, and if I adored children enough I could handle not having pets, it just factors in to the whole equation for me.

We've talked a lot here before about people who have kids and then get rid of or neglect their pets afterwards. I think that's wrong.

Don't EVEN get me started on this....I volunteer with a rescue group and I've seen it all too often. Not even just because of allergies, but usually "We have kids now and we just don't have the time to give our pet the time it deserves!" There's thousands of animals in shelters because of this "reason".

To go in a positive direction, a great example of a family which keeps their pet after having children, despite the difficulty, is the book "Marley and Me". They even *GASP* move several states AND take their dog with them!

Cindy

Malamutes, your day with the 4-year-old story, complete with dialogue, made me laugh hard. Oh man...I would have gone batsh!t in the first two minutes.

I had a friend who brought over her 4-year-old, and so that the mom and I could chat, she suggested putting a DVD in the machine -- Shrek, which the kid had already seen 75 times but still likes. I put it in, and within two minutes, the kid came over to bug us.

Me: "Would you like a different movie?"
Kid: "No..." And it went back for two more minutes before returning to further erode my patience.
Me to the Mom: "I can put a different movie in..."
Mom: "No, it's okay, he'll settle down." Kid watches another two minutes then returns to us. My teeth were starting to chatter. So I calmly walked over to the DVD/TV and turned it off. The kid starts wailing, and the mom rushes to it, coddling it. She turned it back on, and the kid stayed for about 8 minutes. I got up again, and upon my first movement toward the DVD player, the mom finally got stern with her tot.

It makes my blood boil to hear of all the pets that are abandoned by their owners once the kids come along. I don't understand how people can adopt an animal, which includes being responsible for that animal's health, happiness and everyday care for the rest of the animal's life, and then just turn on a dime and abandon the animal because they're tired of the animal or they have kids and there's no time, etc. It's ridiculous. That is a kind of cruelty that I cannot even begin to understand, and it certainly doesn't set a good example for children when their parents are that irresponsible about animals.

To me, our 6 cats are somewhat "kids" to us. We're not crazy people, but they light up our lives and make even the most difficult days at work or problems with friends/family just fade away. I can't imagine ever giving any of them up for any reason whatsoever. 6 is a lot, and it's probably the most we feel comfortable being responsible for at one time, but if it were up to us, we'd rescue each cat we meet and take them in! Luckily, it seems that more and more no-kill shelters/foster/adoption groups are showing up in our area, and I certainly hope that trend is spreading, so that all the beautiful cats & dogs (and other animals!) out there have a home of sorts and are not punished for their stupid owners not caring for them!

You're right that not only cats and dogs get abandoned...there is a guinea pig rescue group in my area that has around 130 guinea pigs needing permanent homes...the usual reason is the G.P. was bought for a kid, the kid lost interest, parent didn't want to take care of the G.P. (they can live 7 years and longer) so they give it up to the rescue group, or drop it off at the animal shelter...very sad!

Cindy

Haha, Angela, that's great!

Cindy - I was going to make the same point, to look at the What We Look Like thread!

My pets are my babies, too. (They are not "baby replacements," they are my family!) It drives me crazy when people don't take care of their pets the way they would a child (I don't mean treat it like a child.)

You know what also gets me? I hate the fact that there are still pet stores in malls, even with what I think is widespread knowledge of puppy mills and the horrible conditions that animals are kept in who are at pet stores or will be sold at pet stores one day! We had a couple of malls around here a couple of years ago that had Humane Society of MO stores in them, where you could purchase items that were pet-related or for your pets and the proceeds would benefit the Humane Society - there were also cats and dogs in those two stores available for adoption from the Humane Society. I thought that was a magnificent idea and that those types of shops should replace pet stores everywhere, but instead, I guess it got too expensive to keep those Human Society mall shops in operation on top of the other shelters, etc., that they run, so they closed, and guess what? There are still malls in this area with pet stores. It makes me so sad to see that. Those stores attract exactly the type of people we're talking about - the parents will buy whatever cat, dog, rabbit, guinea pig, etc., that the kid wants in those stores, and then when the kid grows tired of it, those animals wind up in shelters, waiting for re-adoption for as long as it takes (if they're lucky enough not to be in a kill shelter), when they once had a home to call their own.

It literally makes me tear up just thinking about it.

I HATE pet stores! We've always gotten our pets from the humane society, or found them. Even one of my gliders is a rescued glider.

Now, the woman next door has SEVEN rescued pets. And ten birds. It's like living next to the animal kingdom, and I think it's ridiculous! They have a smaller house than us, and there are 3 people living there. I think that's going a bit overboard, don't you think?

Don't forget about the bunnies!!! People get them for their kids at Easter, the kids lose interest/don't take care of them, the bunnies grow up/etc. The list goes on and on. That's why we created the "Make Mine Chocolate!" campaign (shameless plug alert) to encourage people to give kids candy or toy rabbits instead of real ones! www.makeminechocolate.org

Rabbits are great pets if you know what you're getting into, but they are NOT low maintenance, nor are they good with young kids or easily handled. Easter is a HORRIBLE time for rabbits - most of them end up dumped/abandoned/neglected/abused/dead within months after the holiday. (think black cats = Halloween, also not good.)

Seriously though, check us out. That's why I bust my butt for the bunnies!

<steps off soapbox>.

Great site, tbunny! My friend has two rabbits, both are getting up in years (they are named Dusty and Quincy.) I have bunnysat a few times and really enjoyed it, but rabbits are not for everyone. I also had a friend who had a dwarf rabbit, he was fun, too. Very well taken care of.

Thanks! I always love hearing about other people's beloved, well-cared-for bunnies!

We're getting ready to jump into the campaign again this year (our "official" launch date is always Feb. 15). No, rabbits are not for everyone, which is the main thing we're trying to get across.

My own buns are named Lucy and Quincy (we're on Bunspace.com, too). They are 8-9yrs old. I love them dearly. Quincy is my snuggle bun right now (he's the one with glaucoma) and Lucy is ALL sass and attitude.

Aargh! that's what happened to my cat!

Bought by a professional couple.. had him for 5 years.. then she gets knocked up... all of a sudden they stop grooming him, he gets ringworm, ear mites.. an ear infection that is SO BAD and left UNTREATED that he now has a permanent hole in his eardrum....

They gave him up so matted he had to be shaved and medicated for months....

The reason they gave him up 'my pregnancy' ....

So.. I know, I'll get pregnant and have a kid then I'll buy a cat and give up my kid for adoption... reason 'Bought a cat'... I'd be vilified and hated by most of the world... yet it's ok to dispose of a pet?

I adopted him and have currently spent �3000 on vets bills.. numerous ringworm treatments.. he had an eye ulcer... cystitus....

You neglect a kid like that.. you get done for child abuse.. you give up a cat in that state? oh it's fine...

I'm not a cruel person, but I have wished unspeakable things to happen to the woman whilst she was pregnant....

I know what you mean, Linux Lady. I know a similar story, but it is so negative, I don't see the point of repeating it.

In Texas, people have very little regard for animals. There isn't a sense of responsibility about them. They're allowed out to roam about, even though they almost always get hit since it's a highly-populated area. There are also a lot of diseases because of the climate.

People who actually do things to care for their pets are just thought to be snooty.

In Texas, I'm surprised they just don't use them for target practice...

I wouldn't be surprised...

Linux_Lady, it is so great that you adopted that cat! He is so much better off with you. I don't blame you for wishing that bad things happen to that person who treated him so terribly before giving him up. I do the same thing - at any instance of animal cruelty I see or hear about, I immediately wish for bad things to happen to those cruel people responsible.

We had a beautiful, big orange tabby male that we adopted in April of 2004, and unfortunately he is now at the Rainbow Bridge. He passed away Aug. 12, 2006 - sudden kidney failure. This cat was so special, though - we really don't know how old he was when we adopted him - the rescue group estimated that he was around 2.5-3 years old at that time, but the emergency vets who tried to save him thought that he might be around 7 years old, rather than the 4-5 years old we were thinking he was. Anyway, when the rescue group found him, he was on death's door, with a terrible respiratory infection and with ear mites that were so bad, they deformed his ears so that they were all crinkly. Anyway, after the rescue group took him in and got him healthy, he was happy and was just about the friendliest cat ever - in fact, we weren't even looking to adopt a cat at the time (we had 2 and thought we might adopt a couple more in the future, but not immediately), but that late March night in 2004 that we stopped at PetSmart to pick some food/litter/etc up for our kitties, our lives changed forever. As we often do when we visit PetSmart, we stopped to say hello to the cats in the Luv-A-Pet adoption center there. His name at the time was "Red Baron" because of his large size and the fact he was a red tabby, but we renamed him Leo when we took him home. That first night, he came right up to me as we stopped in and visited, and was talking to us, making the funniest sounds. He even got on my lap a few minutes after meeting me! We stopped in a few more times that week, and adopted him, just because we fell in love with him and knew he'd be snatched up by someone else before too long because of that awesome personality. He was such a sweetie, and he never knew a stranger - he was good with the 2 cats that we had from before him, as well as the little snowshoe girl we adopted 2 months later. Every one of our friends and family who met him just adored his friendly attitude. He would roll over and let us rub his belly for hours and he would sleep with us holding him like a stuffed animal without complaint! Leo was such a great kitty - there's no way he wasn't someone's cat at some time, because he was so social and friendly, even after all he went through while he was abandoned and sickly!

Making the decision to put him to sleep on Aug. 12, 2006, was just about the saddest thing that we have ever experienced, but we knew it was for the best, because his kidneys were failing, and his other organs were shutting down, and nothing the vets tried was working. He was not well at all, but still was sweet and behaved so well with the vets (our regular vet loved him because he was so nice) and kept looking at us with those kind eyes. Anyway, I don't think that DH & I have ever been so upset and people without pets probably do not understand it, but it truly is horrible to lose a pet suddenly. The vets think that Leo might've been sick for a while, but there was no way to really know because he didn't start having problems till that time and that's why we took him in. They think he might've gotten into something while he was out on his own and that it might've irreparably damaged his kidneys. We'll never know, but we sure do miss him to this day. We ended up adopting 3 more kitties to add to the remaining 3, and I'll say that we have a full house now, and it's wonderful, but there is such an emptiness without him.

OK - that was way off-topic, but I thought you guys, of all people, would probably understand.

Hi again

Yes, the old battle to secure funding! Amazing to do Egyptology though. I think that as long as you remain optimistic, other doors open (e.g. jobs in your field). This involves getting to know other likeminded people as contacts are everything. What you are doing is a risk, but sometimes I think that there is no life path without sacrifice and effort - so you might as well make sacrifices for something you believe in, cos it makes your life meaningful. Rather than making sacrifices for something you don't believe in.

If you do applied psychology you can get into teaching and research. But if you are an academic you can only do that. Nevertheless it's what I'm leaning towards. But today I feel optimistic about it all. I think that as one door closes another door opens, so basically if you are doing something that's right for you then you won't have too many regrets even if there are some mistakes along the way. Damn, why can't I be this positive when I'm lying awake at 3am?!?

Actually re: being CF - after my initial post on the board about my god-children's horrendous mother I sent a really big e-mail to another friend who has a six-month old baby where I let rip and was completely honest and upset about it all. And I just got a reply back from her and she(despite being consumed with the baby) is still absolutely great and supportive of my life choices. At one point in my e-mail to her I wrote this:

"My life - you could call it immature, you could call it selfish, you could call it unconventional."

To which she replied:
God it's hardly unusual, you're just like loads of 30somethings across the country. You make it sound like you spend your days walking around up and down Stokey High St in a gimp outfit or something.

So basically it turns out she's a really great friend who has a child!!!!! Hurrah! 'cos I thought I might lose her. And actually, most of my friends with kids are absolutely great people who see no need to impose their worldview on me. It is just the evil Mother Of Godchildren (aka Fiona). I am seeing them this weekend for god-daughter's birthday. Wish me luck. I am dreading it. If F is horrible to me I could consider resigning from my post, but I can't help thinking those kids might need me when they're teenagers and she's left them completely emotionally screwed up.

Anyway, I'm gonna go now but I leave you with a lyric from a band who are too embarrassing to name but who I like:

You can sneer,
Or disappear
Behind a veneer
Of self-control

But for all of those who don't fit in
Who follow their instincts and are told that they sin
This is a prayer for a different way

Can you tell I'm a little tipsy on red wine?

See you all later
Ogriv
x

Tipsy posts are always fun. Just be careful not to spill on your computer!

Someday those of us who imbibe could have a MNK online cocktail hour. That would be interesting.

The Pet Shop Boys aren't that unnameable, are they? (Yes, Google is my friend.) I was expecting something like Take That, at least!

By the way, which part of the UK are you from?

LSUTiger, i could have written the above. not sure if you read my post on another thread about my sweet kitty who we had to put to sleep just 3 weeks ago today. she had chronic renal failure, but we didn't know until it was too late (often the case, as animals are good at "hiding" it for a long time). we came home from a weekend away and she was almost gone. we spent the next 5 days taking her from the vet to the overnight vet hospital and back and forth. she was on an iv and extremely weak. that was the hardest period i've ever been through. it was totally out of the blue and she was only 6 1/2--very young for this kind of thing. vet told us she would probably not get better and that we needed to start thinking about "next steps." she ended up "recovering" for about 2 1/2 glorious months. this time was a gift and i cherished every moment. we thought she'd have days, or a week at most and she had almost 3 months of happy, affectionate, active time. when she declined, we had to go through the painful decision making process that we knew was inevitable.

horrible. i miss zoe so much.

That happened to my cat too.

We found her in our garden, almost dead, because she was sooooo weak.
Her owners left her alone, because she had the cat flu, fleas, ear mites and a really hard eye infection...

We took her into our house to nurse her.
I don't know how often the vet came to us.... (a lot of money but I don't care - never mind )

Thank god, she is very fit now. We really love her and we can feel her thankfulness every day.

She is outdoors most of the time, because she is to afraid to stay in our house...
I also think that they beat her, because she was so anxious and shy for a long time...

It seems that you and Julianne are animals lovers!! Do you guys click on the animal rescue site? I am sorry that you lost your cat..I know how hard that is.

The only thing that makes animal abuse stories better is the adoption stories that follow. Thanks, guys!

That's soooo got to be a Bingo!

verynicebecky - if you don't like what you're reading then why continue? Surely you must have enough intelligence to understand that if you venture onto a CF forum then you'll come across people who don't want kids and don't consider parenting to be "the hardest job in the world"? We, the CF, are just as entitled to our opinions as all those parents out there, and we're expressing them in a forum where like-minded people subscribe and contribute. I'm sure there are just as many "oh, aren't those CF weirdos evil!" topics on various parenting boards but hey, if I don't like what I see I'll respect their opinions and go elsewhere. Maybe you should do the same.

Hi Manatee

Well, I always think I'm the only person left in Christendom who still (whisper it) buys Pet Shop Boys albums. It's just me financially supporting them now.

I'm in London - Stoke Newington to be precise. Where are you?

BTW Frieda, love the idea of the online cocktail hour. Mine would be a mango daiquiri!

Now off to do more college work... or my academic dreams will be no more than a chimera.

Ogriv
x

Oh yeah, you told me already where you're from... London, right? Because that'd make it easier to work at the BM. Whereabouts in London?

Ogriv
x

I actually live in Surrey (Woking), but commute to London most days for lectures. I'm at UCL, so Bloomsbury's my main hunting ground.

Badgers and hedgehogs ... are you SURE you guys like animals?

Manatee, have you tried to trump my hedgehogs with your frolicking badgers?!? It's just as well there is a pixel limit on these avatars or they might take up the whole page. Do you happen to have an enormous image of a Manatee anywhere?

Bloomsbury, eh? My current job (while I'm doing my psychology conversion course) is working with rough sleepers in the London Borough of Camden. Which of course includes Bloomsbury. It's always nice to drop into Bloomsbury to get some peace and quiet and walk among the academic buildings.

Are you implying there's something wrong with liking badgers, Ingilbert? (makes offended badger huffing noises)

Ogriv - sorry, your new avatar just provided the prompting I needed to get one of my own! The badgers in the picture are abandoned baby badgers which are reared in a wildlife rescue centre before they are released back into the wild. My boyfriend and I have adopted a couple of badgers who live at the centre as they are too unwell to fend for themselves. I believe they look after hedgehogs too - here's the website address if you want to take a look. They used to have a live webcam where you could watch the resident animals, sadly it doesn't seem to be working anymore - just as well, because it was quite addictive.

I used to have some pictures of manatees but don't know what's happened to them - no doubt Google would turn them up again. When I first started posting on a forum, I was going through a manatee phase, and the name sort of stuck...

fbritt, I'm so sorry to hear that you lost your cat, Zoe, so recently. It's so difficult, and it really helps to talk/post about it, doesn't it? I like that Rainbow Bridge story (animals who pass away go to the "Rainbow Bridge") - I wonder if there's any truth to it. Anyway, my thoughts are with you. I know it hurts for a long time.

Those are badgers?

Huh! I always thought a badger would look more like a gopher. I just looked at your post, Manatee, and I swore those looked like anteaters, so I was going to post a question, "What's up with the anteaters?"

I have learned more about exotic animals in the last few weeks; combine that with bushy birthing, and it's no wonder we're a popular forum.

I must say, in hearing about how many people are involved in animal rescue projects, I'm beginning to feel a bit moved. All I do is care for my cat and give a little money to the Texas Marine Wildlife group. *shrug* Maybe I'll look into animal rescue. How did you all pick your critters? Some have bunnies, some have...slider sugar flying things (just teasing, Ingilbert, I know what they are now) ... some have hedgehogs...anyone like bats? >:)

Of course, whenever ANYONE mentions badgers.....

http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/

Thanks for that, Duane - it's rather mad!

Angela, the badgers in my picture are Eurasian badgers. The American ones look quite different (and, no offence to American badgers, far less attractive, in my opinion!).

That's one of those 'viral' things that once you hear it, you can't get rid of it.

Someone mentioned how obvious it is that the forum is labeled "Married No Kids". If you look to the right there are a number of posts that are listed from all over the forum area with the latest discussions. It's easy for someone to click on one of those and not realize what forum they've entered... especially if they are new to the forums or threads in general.

Hey there Moe, I understand where you're coming from on that; it's a very easy mistake to make, but this lady (I assume she's a lady from her username) knows full well that this is a Childfree forum, so I do think it's rather unfair that she appears to be trolling.

No, I love badgers and hedgehogs! American badgers are a lot wider though. Yes, less attractive, I think!

Okie dokie. There's always someone who likes to go into the Buddhism other alternate religions (for lack of a better term) who like to stir things up too.

I, too, have made this mistake.

I entered a discussion once on something I saw posted on the right-hand side about someone not being allowed to enter a country because she was too obese. So I charged in there, posting, "I must say I'm glad someone, somewhere finally made this woman accountable to her own health issue."

I had no clue it was in the Large & Lovely room -- whoops. Moe called me out on it too. It wasn't until later when I realized where I had posted...it would be like going to the Parenting room and while they're trying to discuss best practices in "Time Outs," for me to post something like, "Just SMACK the hell out of 'em!"

Since learning that lesson, I always take note of the room I'm in before posting, and I must say, I've declined to post some things after such realization.

I JUST did that! I thought someone was talking about video games, but they were talking about table-top gaming, so my blithering about Sephiroth was TOTALLY out of place.

And Duane, that web site is AWESOME! I haven't stared mesmerized like that since Nazi kittens. (I don't have the site link, unfortunately.)

I've looked on Google and manatees aren't very winsome in my opinion, although perhaps baby ones are.

Those badgers of yours look like they've checked into a hotel, not a wildlife centre. Looked at the website. The animals are gorgeous - loved the baby fox.

Isn't it weird that baby animals really appeal to us, yet we are less gooey at the young of our own species? I think human babies are OK, but I always feel vaguely guilty and bored... I used to feel the same way in church. Perhaps it is punishment of some sort

If babies were furry they'd be a lot cuter.

I like the way it never, ever stops....

If two very hirsute people mated, would it increase the likelihood of this? Is there a geneticist in the house?

Ogriv, I think some of us are just wired a little differently. I have no positive reaction to human babies: newborns I find plain ugly, with their prune-like features, and even older babies fail to inspire much interest on my part. Friends' children is a different thing, undoubtedly because of the personal connection. I imagine that baby-crazy women (you know the type - no baby in their vicinity is safe from being cooed over) react to babies similarly to the way in many of us CF react to animals, whether young or fully-grown. It's the only way I can imagine what it must feel like to be really drawn to babies/children.

That is part of the "quality" of it. It never ends... it never ends... it is Internet famous for being so annoying.

To really annoy a real techie, just say to him/her:

Badger badger badger badger...

And walk -- I mean, run away fast! You've planted that earworm in his/her head so deeply that he/she won't forget it for a few days

eh hem...

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I have an urge to buy a shopping cartful of Bumblebee Tuna now, for some reason

thanks to all of you for your support about the loss of my cat. it does help to write about her. i feel like i'm honoring her by doing so. also, it helps to have people really understand the bond that can occur, and the grief. it means a lot. thanks again.

Sadly, we're often made to feel uncomfortable if we mourn the passing of one of our pets. I don't understand that attitude and feel sorry for people who have never loved an animal...
I cried for all of my pets when they died...since working in Japan, I like to go into the temples dedicated to the memory of pets - light a candle and burn some incense, remembering all the gorgeous moggies that have been part of my life.
I'm an atheist but respect the Buddhist teaching that all life is sacred...whether you have two or four legs, wings or fins...
So sorry to hear your sad news fbritt...