I just read on another bulletin board that I enjoy that with the economic slowdown number of women that are selling their eggs is up. The price paid for them can range between five and ten thousand dollars.

ONe of the people who posted a comment said that she knew someone who had donated so many times that if she had donated any more it might compromise her own ability to conceive.

My thoughts were that it would be better if someone who preferred to be child free would donate rather than for a woman to risk her own conception to help somebody else have a baby.

Would any of you go through the rigors of testing and hormonal injections to donate? I have to say as much as I feel for someone who can't have a baby that I don't know if I would do it even for twice what they stated is the going rate. Am I being selfish?

Nah, you aren't selfish. There are plenty of people who wouldn't want to go through that just to sell their eggs(And belive me, these are people who claimed they were willing to die to make money). And come to think of it, I wouldn't do it, either. I feel for those who can not have children but want them and everything, but to go through the whole process? No way, love. Let someone who is a total saint do it.

I would never do this. I watched a 60 minutes type program one time regarding this. It showed women that had donated and the lifelong problems they now have because of the hormonal changes they went through. They suffered from severe depression and other major side effects. They make it so you drop 3-6 eggs which just isn't natural. Their systems were so messed up from the whole experience and the money wasn't what they were promised. Seems there is some fine print on that. Some were promised several thousand and received less than a thousand. They did show some people though that had great experiences and had no long term health problems. I just wouldn't want to risk my own health and mental happiness.

Woo I don't have any eggs in my basket any more, If i did i don't think i could make that decision very easily.

I would not do this, either. It sound horrible. I think if I wanted a child and could not conceive one naturally, I would just adopt. I would feel weird taking someone's eggs.

How childfree are you once there is a kid out there somewhere whose genetic material is 50% yours? Even if you don't bear, raise, or even meet the end result, you still have a bio-kid out there.

For that reason, among many, I wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't do it simply because I don't want to pass on my crazy DNA to another generation!

I can't understand why people just don't adopt! There are so many kids out there who need good families. Besides, with adoption, no stretch marks!

Oh, so because I don't want children, I should go through all the meds and procedures and everything so that I can give my eggs to someone else? Why on earth would you even think this? I think this is a really insensitive comment.

These women sell their eggs to make money. They don't do it to be charitable. They don't say, "oh, those poor women will never understand what unconditional love is. Let me be super generous and give them my eggs so that they have a child that's not really theirs. If only those selfish CF women would get off their butts and do this so I don't have to risk myself. Oh, poor me, I'm the only one who is selfless enough to help these desperate women out." Donating eggs isn't like giving blood. When you give blood, you save a life. When you donate eggs, you give them to someone who wants a child for selfish reasons.

It's all selfish, every bit of it. Not that it's bad, but it's not some miraculous thing. We shouldn't all jump up and volunteer our eggs because someone's body has a genetic flaw. There are children all over this world that need to be adopted and given homes. I think it's selfish for people to go to fertility clinics to have "their own" children instead of adopting or fostering kids who are already here.

But my opinions aren't everyone's. If someone wants to sell her eggs because she needs money, that's her business. But don't suggest that this is the job of the CF because we don't want children. It's not MY fault that some woman needs money so badly that she puts her own fertility at risk. That's her problem. I'm not here to save anyone's ability to reproduce.

Please try to be a little more sensitive. That is what the disclaimer on this board says, isn't it?

Agreed 100%. You can't conceive on your own? Adopt. The amount of money spent on fertility treatments/etc in this world is disgusting. Some people are so desperate to have little replicas of themselves running around that they will spend ridiculous amounts of money to do it, even though God/nature/whatever you believe in is telling you YOUR BODY ISN'T MEANT FOR KIDS.

And they call the Child-Free selfish, lol.

The question in today's world might be whether it is less expensive to use someone else's eggs. I haven't put the pencil to it, but it has to be pretty expensive for people to adopt children from countries.

There's probably more than one trip to the foreign location to fill out paperwork and take care of the legalities. Those airline tickets, hotel rooms and meals aren't free and if more than one or trips is necessary those amounts could start to add up quickly.

Could price comparisons be a reason that families who are unable to conceive are buying eggs rather than adopting children who are already here and need a home? Has anyone ever heard someone who adopted a foreign baby say what they spent?

It seems that I remember on one of the news programs where some parents were relating their "adoption nightmare" that they quoted a pretty high figure. This was several years ago and the family had adopted a child that had problems and were trying to figure out what to do because he was making the other children in the home feel threatened. Apparently the time spent in the orphanage under poor conditions was the cause of his behavioral problems.

That kind of risk could be another reason that IVF is preferred over adoption. However, IVF is not without some of the same potential problems. From what I've read some of the women who donate are less careful with their personal health than they should be. No matter how you slice and dice the facts you will be getting another person's DNA.

As much as I love my children, I'm afraid that (here I go sounding selfish again?) I would accept and make the most out of a life without children in it if I couldn't have my own with my own eggs.

I guess I'm not really sure why you would think of yourself as selfish if you didn't have children. How is that selfish? At least, beyond the everyday selfishness that humans demonstrate in order to live normal, healthy lives.

If adopting children is too expensive, then what is so wrong with not having children? How on earth is it selfish? To me it sounds completely logical and rational.

I feel bad for people who adopt children with emotional issues. But biological children have issues, too. Kids aren't dogs. You can't give them back to the shelter. If you adopt a child with baggage, you take him/her to therapy, you work with him/her. Kids are work. It doesn't matter where they come from, they are work. I think people expect to pop out (or adopt) a kid and then magically be a happy Disney family. It doesn't work like that, no matter if the child is biological or not. I think there are a lot of parents out there who can't accept it. If they would, their lives would be a lot better because then they'd actually get the help they need and not brush the problem under the rug.

And don't you think it's a little bizarre to be implying that you'd be selfish if you didn't have kids when you're on a child free board? Or, is this NOT a child free board anymore? I'm awfully confused.

Where are all the moderators that were so active here a few months ago? Maybe they could explain a little better if this IS a board for child free people or just for people who don't have children.

Sweetkb- Yeah, where ARE the mods? It seems like MNKDS is dying on it's feet right now. :[

Msbaby- If Sweetkb is right in guessing what you mean by saying you'd be "selfish not to have any kids"...Uh...Wow. On a CF board, no less? I'll admit, I have some respect for you, since you usually show care in what you post on here, but, wow. Try and think about the CF here, not everyone here is selfish because of one choice. Maybe you just meant that statement for yourself, but it does affect those around you.

Naomi - Just out of curiosity, what is your signature line from?

Interesting Msbaby that you only mention foreign adoptions in your argument that IVF is cheaper than adoption.

Thirty seconds of Google search led me to Adopt.com, where the statistics on adoption costs are listed. If a child is adopted from the U.S. Foster Care system, the adoption fees are often waived. Yes, that's right, a zero cost adoption.

Private agencies are more expensive, $6,000-$30,000 and yes foreign adoptions are the most expensive, at $7,000-$30,000. BUT there are also state tax credits, reduced fees, loans, even an entire organization dedicated to making adoption affordable.

Adoption expense is a straw man. There is something else that prevents more people from adopting. Considering the popularity of IVF, I wonder what that could be.

Sweetkb- It's from the song "Run Rabbit Run" by the Hoosiers. :]

There is a lot more red tape to get through in the US than in places like China. I know someone who fostered a child who still had visitation rights with her mother - it was stressful for everyone involved. That girl was never going to be eligible for adoption, she was only in foster care because her mother was incompetent. So there is less of a chance of something like that happening when you go overseas.

I think another reason that a lot of people prefer to pay the bigger bucks is that they are essentially buying themselves a child. Yes, that's right. They want a child RIGHT NOW and go through hell and high water to raise the money. That's how desperate they are. As far as I know (from casually knowing a few people who have adopted from China), overseas adoptions move much faster than ones in the States.

I think some of those people need to pull in the reins a bit. Kids aren't puppies. And especially with some of those China adoptions, you pretty much get the child sight-unseen. I remember an article in the paper about a local couple who just knew that they were going to China to get "a girl." They didn't even know what orphanage they were going to until they got there.

At least those people are adopting. I wish there was more of a standardization in adoptions across the board, and I do wish it was more attractive than IVF. There are just too many kids who need good homes.

I guess the point is, there are just too many people who are too desperate. I feel sorry for the people who think a child will fill in whatever is "missing" and then find that it doesn't.

no frickin way would I give/sell someone else my eggs. To me it is immoral. One of the biggest reasons I am CF is because of my genetic profile. I see selling your eggs as being the epitome of self-centeredness. I do not want children because I do not want to reproduce, not just because I do not want the inconvenience of pregnancy or the responsibility of child-rearing.
Ravyn

I've thought about donating my eggs from time to time -- hey, I'M not going to use them, right?

But then I thought about the implications of having "my child" wandering around out there. If I don't want kids, then how could I reconcile that fact?

I couldn't.

I am supportive of anyone who wants to donate eggs. God knows there are a lot of couples out there who are desperate for children.

But I don't think I would ever be able to do it.

Kim

Kim Kenney
MNK Editor

Not just the red tape - I think the authorities put prospective adoptive parents through an emotional wringer, they want to know everything from financial stuff to psychological profile and then they still treat the application as suspicious. It seems that couples going for IVF are at least treated with sympathy and kindness in comparison, and maybe that is why it appears "easier" to try IVF first before putting yourself through adoption hell.

Hey y'all I was not making a statement that I felt I WAS being selfish that I would not consider selling my eggs; with the question mark I meant to indicate that I wondered if some might consider me to be.

A few of my CF friends that I know don't want children because they love their lives just like they are and don't want to take time out for child rearing. Some of these women would be willing (I asked) to donate or sell their eggs to enable someone else to conceive.

I don't think that I would do that anymore than I would have a child and willingly give it up for adoption. To me they are practically the same thing.

But y'all know what? I really wish that people who conceive naturally had to pass JUST HALF of the scrutiny of the people trying to adopt. If people had to prove they were ready to be parents before they had kids the world would be a better place.

As far as adopting from the foster system; that is a nightmare that I have observed up close in two different cases. Relatives seem to leave the children in the system without a care for years until some couple wants to adopt them and then everybody from aunts to great-grandmothers come out of the woodwork Or even better mom does a complete turn around and cleans up her life for a few weeks and takes the child back. In a month or so (however long it takes to completely traumatize the kid) the authorities inevitably have to remove the kid again. They can say the adoptive fees are free all they want, but the people I knew had unbelievable legal fees. It's my opinion that they would have been much better off to live their CF lives to the fullest and have left it alone rather than endure the heartache and misery the pursuit of children gave them.

Forum moderators here aren't on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We all work for FREE. We expect forums by and large to self moderate and to behave civilly.

Any person is welcome to participate in any forum and to express their point of view. For someone to say they feel a certain way is never a statement that they expect all other people to feel that way as well. If someone with kids feels selfish, that is how they feel. Others are welcome to feel differently and not need to feel defensive or upset because of that.

I personally considered donating eggs. I was deeply in debt and it would have made a huge difference in my life, to have that money. For people who dismiss that, maybe you have never experienced that kind of debt load. I had just gotten divorced and was saddled with over $30k in debt as a result. This was one of my only ways out. There are not many legitimate, "honorable" ways for a single mother to make that kind of income to stay financially solvent.

Ugh, Amen. I wish you were required to pass a test before you had kids. Guaranteed most of my neighbors wouldn't have any right now...

Which brings up another annoyance. Doctors who will happily help you to have a football team of kids no questions asked, but want to run psych evals on you if you want a tubal (and then outright refuse to do it).

Edit: Lisa, I think your situation is a little different. You mention being a single mother, in which case, since you have already reproduced, you aren't grappling with what I think is the main objection: whether or not we'd truly be child-free if we donated eggs (and they were used). But, who's to say what any of us would do in a situation like you described.

I agree completely that all parents should pass a test before having kids. You need to fill out forms and such before adopting dogs and cats, or getting a driver's license. There should be even more involved before you bring a human life into the world and are entrusted solely with its care.

I do agree that the philosophical issues in creating a life are very important. But I think it's also important to acknowledge, from a financial standpoint, that many people simply cannot afford to eat. In the hierarchy of needs it's easy to say "someone should consider the higher morals". However if someone can't fulfill their basic needs of food and water, those always have to come first. You can only consider higher moral grounds if you are alive to think about them.

what I don't get is the opinion that by donating eggs, and they being used, you have "children" out there. No, YOU don't have children... someone else does by using part of you that you willingly donated or sold. This is the same bone of contention I have with people and me, with me being adopted, telling me that my mother must miss me, or do I have a relationship with my "mom". I tell them yes, I had a great relationship with my mom. She was my best friend and I miss her dearly. They don't get I am talking about the woman who raised me and was my MOM, not the woman who was my birth progenator. Yes, she birthed me and I am a product of half of her DNA, yet, I am NOT her child. She gave up all those rights the day she signed the papers absolving her of any responsibilty legally for me.

It is no simpler than that. Just because one may donate sperm or an egg, does not mean that the offspring of that donation is their "child" or "offspring". You gave up the right to think like that or behaive in that manner the day you signed the paper and made your "donation". It is this mindset that can and does destroy relatrionships with the children and families of those who benefited from the donation. I don't need to know my donator. S/He isn't my parent. I don't want to know them especially because they didn't want to know me. They are nothing more than the people who gave my parents the opportunity to have me. My parents, the ones who WANTED the child, took the steps to get me. Genetic materials does not make a parent and so forth, it's the intent behind it (the adoption or use of donated materials) that counts. That would be like saying that the leather jacket I might wear is the child of the designer, and thus it is still in essence theirs. Or that the painting the artists created, even though sold to a buyer, is still theres for all eternity.

I am not trying to be bitter or bitchy, however, this is one of my pet peeves. People need to see things for what they truly are. A sperm or egg donation is a monetary transaction (or a gifted transaction when money isn't involved). There is no other obligation associated and no other relatinship with the material once it's donated. The product of your donation isn't yours, and never will be. You sold it or gave it away... you have no claims to it... period. I am happy I was adopted. It gave me a life I never would have had with my birthmother. I don't have a relationship with her by choice. She may consider me her child, but I am not that at all. I was raised by a mother and a father who loved me and cared for me, because they wanted to and not because they HAD to. I may not have been born to my mom, but that didn't make her any less my mom, and to give the woman who did birth me any more credence by calling her mom or mother is a disservice to the woman who proudly carried that title with honor.

Consider that which I have said and think about it. Donations are donations. The resulting product (if any) has nothing to do with the person who donated. They provided the material for creation and nothing more. There is no duty beyond the original transaction, and to think there is (or to claim a duty or honor/association) not only is a disservice to the people who benefitted from your donation, but a dishonor to the product (the child) of your donation.

Jase, believe me when I say that people don't consider themselves a parent of a child that was conceived from egg/sperm donations. The fact is that your genetic material is out there, so you have passed on your genes, and that is your biological child. I completely agree that you are NOT the parents, the people who are raising the child, but biological donors only.

The thing I wonder with egg/sperm donation (and birth parents, in the case of adoption) is this: what happens when the child ends up with some kind of genetic disease, or needs bone marrow, or some kind of transplant? How responsible is the donor/birth parent then?

Just wondering, I don't have an answer. I'm not saying that either is bad.

I agree with you Jase! Totally - your family are the people who love you and care for you.

And i also would wonder, had i ever donated, what kind of creature was out there who might look like me, be like me, in subtle ways. Would they think like me, care about the environment, be creative and love school? Or would their genes mix up to be more like my parents, grandmother, sister? I would wonder and wonder. After all, my sister's child ended up more like me than her for some gene blending reason.

So those are the kind of thoughts I would have swirling in my head.

thanks for listening to me rant. I had just had an argument with my sister. Constantly when she compains about our birthmother she says "your mom". I tell her all the time my mom is dead.. yet she still says that. and so when i came in here and read this thread I kinda snapped a bit. so if anyone took offense I am sorry. But I wanted you to see it from another prospective... the one of a child and their "birth parent".

Certainly if the human biological sperm/egg donor had nothing to do with the parenting of a child that developed out of their genetic material--they are NOT parents in the emotional definition of the word. But technically, according to science, the 'parent' is the orignating organism. I would not donate/sell my eggs because I do not wish to reproduce. I do not wish to be a parent in any sense of the word. Altho some would argue that I have 'parented' in other than physical fashion. I am my own sister's godmother, and I did have some responsibilities in her raising. I also had foster children for a couple of years.
Ravyn

Wow, this is exactly why I frequent this forum loaded up with kids and all! Excellent conversation and eye opening points of view.

When I said I wouldn't sell my eggs, I should not have made such a blanket statement. If my children were hungry or we were in deep financial despair, I would certainly reconsider. So, I suppose I should edit my thoughts to reflect that I would not want to donate but might under certain circumstances. Another case of never say never.

And above all, I hope and pray that I could resist judging a person who sold theirs no matter what they wanted with the money. Their eggs, their life so long as they don't cause anyone else harm.

I also have the utmost respect for women who choose not to procreate because of genetic reasons. This does not mean they might not have wanted a family; they are doing their part to avoid the possibility of passing on illness and suffering. Sacrifice for the sake of another is to be admired.

I wish that the women who do choose to have babies would take a page from their book. I still see way too many pregnant women drinking, smoking and otherwise not taking care of their own lives much less the life they are carrying. We should revoke their license to procreate. ;-)