BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids Child Free; Nature, Nurture or both?

Thank you Burt for your supportive words. I did not take offense to anything you said, I only wanted to clarify more about the situation with my brother and my view.

My brother unfortunately did not have the experience of seeing a lot of love between my mother and father. I remember some of the affection, but my brother is much younger and does not remember much of that, I am sure. When I was about 13 yrs old my father had a nervous breakdown and was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. Needless to say, a lot of hell rained down on our home after that, domestic violence included.

So my brother really did not have a stable male figure in his life growing up. Most of what he will remember about my father, who has been deceased for 17 yrs now, is how sick my father was, not the love my parents once shared. This may be a factor in how naive my brother seems to be, as well as the fact that he has always lived with my mother up until recently. He owns his own home and my mother currently rents a house.

There is a lot of value that children take with them when they see how special their mother is treated by their father.

My ex-husband saw a lot of negatives in his household because of his father. Lack of respect towards his wife, infidelity, drug and alcohol abuse, and utter selfishness and self-centeredness were all a part of his father's repertoire. His father also sexually abused at least one of his daughters if not both, and I am not so sure that my ex-husband got away unscathed. I think he lives in denial on that issue. I know that my ex-husband was definitely physically abused.

Sure, I was put on a pedestal for a short time, but soon my husband became just like his father.....a self-centered and selfish person, a cheater, and a person who did not show me the respect I deserved.

As for the general nature/nurture question: it has been a bit of both for me. My mother told me that when I was young, I pretty much steered clear of baby dolls and thus preferred Barbie dolls. I have read about this. When a girl plays with a baby doll, she is playing on her nurturing side. With Barbie dolls, it is more about role-playing - having Barbie interact with other adults. So I think my natural tendencies from the very start could be why I am CF.

Also, I am the older of two siblings (have one brother). I was also constantly around my male cousin, who was close to my brother's age. There were no girls in my neighborhood, so I learned to play with boys most of the time and developed more security with those activities. I didn't morph into a less feminine woman as a result, of course, but I think it has something to do with why I am not pursuing the motherly interests.

Years ago, long before I fully appreciated I preferred to be cf, I was working with an Irish girl who came from a family of 7. she was the eldest, ( we were both 27 at the time )and she's left ireland, and told me she definitely didn't want kids
- the reason ? she had already brought up her younger siblings from being young. her mother expected her to not only look after the kids, but do the ironing, washing etc.
I never heard her talk about her dad, I don't think he was around much ( apart from the sex part obviously she couldn't have been more adamant that for her it was very hard work for little or no reward, and that no way was she going to sacrifice her life again by having her own kids.

I have similar experiences to many of you - the youngest of two, with no baby dolls but plenty of 'dollies' that I regularly sat around with, in a circle, on my own, while 'we' discussed 'important stuff' vital to any 5 to 12 year old !
Plus my main role was to stop my sister and mother fighting - not physically, just emotionally, both the same characters, so they clashed constantly. I'm like my dad, pretty laid back, but I was on constant alert to diffuse a 'situation' if one arose, by being the joker, and calming them down.

I had a good upbringing, but there wasn't a huge amount of nurture, and if you couldn't take a sarcastic cut down and give one back, then you were eaten alive !

Plus, I don't mean to put down all women with kids, but there is a large proportion of them who think ; 'what would I do if I didn't have them.' they are happy to sit in a room with other mothers and kids talking about baby food and how funny it was when johnny picked his nose, - while constantly being interrupted by wailing and play fights,- because they have no wish or imagination to talk about anything else.

this would be my idea of hell, and while I am happy in my own skin, part of me wishes I could have been like that, to have wanted kids and to have been happy with that life, to have 'fitted in'....I know it's not me, and my life, after deep consideration is right for me, but you know what I mean.

Also from an early age, I used to hate having a baby / young children 'dumped' on me. As you all say, hard work, boring, and from what I can gather not at all rewarding - UNLESS you are the mother, and can say you've brought up little johnny to be a sterling member of society, or when he's young and others compliment you on how cute he/ she is.

As we've said, how many mothers now actually can't wait to get back to work after having a child, or dump it on the first family member or vaguely sensible friend that is willing ?

The reason is that it IS hard work, that often you DON'T get anything back other that alot of grief and heart ache.
And as for those that say little johnny will be there when I get older, it's the same people who have no imagination and need others to care for them instead of taking control of your own life.
Making your own friends ( and being a good friend yourself ) and taking responsibility for your old age and being responsible for your friends' and your familys old age, because if you have loving people around you ( not JUST kids ) then you will be cared for and loved til you pop your clogs and move onto the next life....OOOh I hope they've got cream cakes ..:D - Sorry, I'm on a diet, and a large strawberry tart just popped into my head.

Wow, guys, I love hearing what you all have to say! It seems as though there are a healthy mix of first and last born, people who had many kids thrust upon them and folks (like me) who never had to be around them and could "opt out" of situations where kids were present, such as babysitting.....hhmmm I pose another question though.....did ANY of us really LOVE children and babies at any point in our lives, really wanted to raise a family ourselves and changed our minds later? What made you change your mind? Thats one thing I havent heard yet....about CF people who really wanted thier own family at one point, then went the opposite way....Im interested.... ( I am not trying to be insensitive to those who cannot madically have children, please dont take offense) Gaynor8002: mmmmmm cream cakes, lol! Made me laugh and/or hungry. Cassie67: Im very sorry to hear about your brother. That really sucks. You and your mom are also probably always going to have to see this wretched girl as well. But no one is going to suffer from this as much as your bro. I always thought what a shame it is when people are forever tied to [censored] people because of a pregnancy. This thankfully hasnt happened in my immediate family but I have plenty of friends/acquaintences that will be forever tied to a trashy girl/jerky guy due to inproper or no birth control. Then again, he's an adult. He knew the risks involved, just as all of my friends did. Its a shame that it ever happens, but it CAN be avoided if people will just stop having sex long enough to THINK. Fingers crossed for him that the paternity reveals its some other guys, and he can wash his hands of the whole thing, and get a fresh start. Perhaps a box of condoms this Xmas? LOL. Good luck!

You gave me something to think about, dinahlove. In looking back at my life I can see now that I really was not ever very interested in having children. I married twice in my 20's. I married the first husband at age 22, an alcoholic who I divorced two years later. I married the 2nd husband at age 26, and that resulted in a 16 yr marriage. In my early to mid 20's, with each husband, I believed I would indeed have children "some day", but I was in no rush. At the time I thought it was just the thing you do when you get married, but I did not want to even think about having a baby in my 20's.

Two weeks after I married my second husband, reality hit me right in the face. I DID NOT want to have children AT ALL. My mind has not changed once in the 17 years since I made that decision. Sure, now and then I would get a twinge of "what would it be like to have a son or daughter?". Or sometimes I would get a tear in my eye when seeing a young child with a parent and they were sharing a special moment. But I never had a deep desire or overwhelming need to have a baby. NEVER. I did not want to hold babies very much and I don't like the way they smell (so many people say that babies smell good......eeeewwwww!!!). I certainly did not enjoy listening to mothers talking about their children incessantly either.

As for my brother, dinahlove, he did have the box of condoms all along. It is just too bad he didn't use his brain and actually put one on before jumping into bed (because she said she didn't like them, and she wouldn't even touch him if he wore one). Now he is stuck in a situation he could have avoided. From what I hear the girlfriend is all about herself and they are not getting along well at all. She is living with my brother in his house now, and I think she forgets whose house it is. My mother can't stand this woman, knowing she is a manipulative little witch. Thankfully I live in another state far away and I never met her.

I'd love it if it turned out that the baby is not his.....but I would love it even more if for some reason she is no longer pregnant down the road. I don't want to offend anyone here by getting specific.....

I was reading in the news about a woman whose mother committed suicide, - the story is not hugely important, but what made me think was how the woman said time and again how much her mother needed her, and that she rang her twice a day, especially as she sank into depression...
Anyway ( on a lighter note ) it got me thinking about this topic, and in all our comments , not just in this thread, but most of them really, and the thought jumped into my head that we don't NEED others as much as most ?

Maybe I'm wrong, but the men and women here seem to be pretty self sufficient.
I don't mean we don't want others love and society, but we don't NEED it as much as some - and therefore having to look after another human being 24/7 just isn't as important - vital - as it is to others ?

Just a thought....

I for one do not feel the need to care for another human being 24/7. I need personal, private time to feel well balanced, and I do crave solitude and peace.

My boyfriend has a 9 yr old daughter who visits every other weekend. Even though she is a nice, well behaved girl, I look forward to Sunday night when she is on her way home. I am just not a kid person. I really don't need or want the responsibility of caring for a young person all of the time.

I like that my boyfriend is independent because I wouldn't want to be caretaking all of the time where he is concerned either. With my ex-husband I felt like the marriage was one big babysitting session in a lot of ways (I won't get into details right now) and it was extremely draining. I did care for my boyfriend when he was sick (heart attack, surgery, long recovery) and I did it because I love him, but I am happy he is better and can do for himself now.

Am I a selfish person? I don't think so. I have pets I care for every day. I just don't need the constant caretaking role of another human being in my life. I would certainly do what was necessary for any loved one in need, but caretaking is not something I seek out. After dealing with work, cooking, cleaning, and various chores and errands, I am pretty much done with responsibilities. I seek out my loving companion for some cuddle time or I go off on my own to relax.

Hey there, Laura from La Vie Childfree here--when I was researching Families of 2 I found no real studies looking at birth order, or looking at whether cf aree more likely to be only children...for upcoming book looked at research in the last decade and while research on the cf has increased (and internationally), don't see this kind of thing. From my observation, with the caveat that it is just from having talked to thousands of cf now, that there is no real trend that stands out--we are oldest, middle, youngest. Most do not see to be the really early deciders, but either the "realization" comes in 20s or older, or they make the decision as life unfolds. The birth order question is a Great idea for a poll for the monthly on-the-ground question I do--I will do it in then near future! For now, check out the current question atBellaOnline ALERT: Raw URLs are not allowed in these forums for security reasons. Please use UBB code. If you don't know how to do UBB code just post here for help - we will help out!

Hey Guys! Gaynor: I think you might be right about that! Interesting idea! I know for myself, Im quite comfortable being alone, thank you very much. I know plenty of people who really DONT know how to be alone and enjoy themsleves. Havent you ever heard friends talk about how silly it would be to see a movie or dine out if they didnt have someone to go with? I do this all the time and feel fine. I had an ex-roomate (dont get me started on HER) that had never been left alone over night, EVER. This girl was in her Mid-20's and had a 2 year old. When I spent the night at my boyfriends house, I had to let her know in advance so she could figure out where to go (her Moms, boyfriends or have a friend over) REALLY? REALLY? Its not as though we lived in a bad neighborhood, she just couldnt handle it. I thought it was ridiculous. I dont know that many CF personally, but the ones I do know are independent and self-sufficient. I think a lot of parents DO have children for selfish reasons and a big one is " I want someone to LOVE ME!" Maybe the CF dont have that (selfish) need. Cassie67: Hahaha, I think we may have the same Ex-husband! That was my exact thought at the end of MY ten year relationship with him: "Wow, I feel like Ive been baby-sitting for a decade!" On that vein, I just want to say that it irks me when people try to say that small things in a relationship really dont matter and shouldnt upset you. It may be a small thing that he didnt clean, didnt wash dishes, didnt cook and didnt take care of any of the household finances, but when there is no change in any of that in over a decadeand it ALL falls on my shoulders? It becomes a BIG thing. And IT DOES MATTER. It matters that I was my husbands "Mommy" for ten years. No more of that s***. Sorry, a little rant. Its been 3 years, apparently Im still mad, lol Laura: Thanks for the info, Im glad we have you here to give us some stats! :cool: I wonder if there is ANY common thread amoung is CF.... also, can you please tell us where to see this months questions, the URLS dont show up...., thanks!

Very interesting points in this thread. In my case, I knew I didn't want to ever have children the minute I found out how they came out of their mothers at age 8. Interest in children never followed, so for me growing up, to hear little girls around me saying "when I am old I want to have 2/3/4 children" was a complete shock. I really thought they didn't know about the procedure, lol. So for me the whole thing is pretty much comparable to being homosexual, I never thought it was a choice, having kids just felt wrong and, ironically, unnatural to me.

I come from a conventional "functional" average loving family. I am not an only child, I have two younger brothers, and I never ever in my life did any babysitting forced or voluntary. So I don't fall into any of the two categories where some people in theses threads often chose to put themselves in, namely :

1) "I was lonely as a child and I like it that way"
2) "I had to take care of so many siblings when I was a child that I had enough".

I played with dolls as a child, but not too much. I liked reading and my brother's playmobil better, but so did many women who are now happy mothers.

I found very interesting Gaynor's ideas about "needing" people in your life. I have lived alone for long periods and loved it. I have travelled alone, gone to the movies alone, have gone for walks alone and eaten in restaurants alone. Before I met my husband at age 33, I had never had someone in my life I could call a boyfriend, just dates and one-night stands, so it seemed very weird to me how some people could find so easily love over and over again. I guess it has a lot to do with this "NEED" to be with someone. And of course having a child is the ultimate plan to secure your chances of having someone around to be needy with for a long time.