BellaOnline Forums News and Politics Democratic Party President's Health Care Speech

What did you think of President Obama's speech and his plan? I though he framed the debate perfectly by presenting health care as a moral issue. And I think the plan is very reasonable. I'm so glad he's my president.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I agree whole-heartedly! I cannot imagine anyone else even trying to accomplish this big of a change in public and political opinion. I have always thought it ridiculous that people have to make choices whether to eat or pay for scripts or see their doc when they should. Every time I hear someone complain about footing the bill for someone else I always go back to the chain only being as strong as its weakest link. If we want to keep advancing as a society its imperative that we take care of the whole population - each and every link in the chain - and there is no greater moral concern out there than that.

Loved your letter to Mr. Obama!

Thanks for the comment, Susan. I agree about the "footing the bill" attitude. For me,it's very personal. My dad got Parkinson's disease at age 45. My mother was pregnant with me -- her "late-in-life" baby. My father became chronically disabled, and we lived in public housing on Social Security, thanks to politicians who believed that the weak links need to be kept from breaking.

I often say to people,"If what happened to my dad happened to you, wouldn't you want someone to help take care of you and your family?" No relative could have done it. As the president said last night, sometimes government needs to step in -- at times like that. That's what liberalism is really all about!

I hope you don't mind me commenting because I'm not American but I lived in the States for five years and one of the reasons we had to leave was when we discovered the company was saving money by not paying our health insurance. That scared us. Don't most Americans find it odd that Canada, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, Australia etc etc all have national healthcare? Why would they do that? Are they being needlessly altruistic. No - it makes perfect economic sense. How can people function if an unexpected illness will destroy them. Don't people think the attitude of "'I'm ok so you can go away and die for all I care' terrible? It's unfeeling and un-Christian. Also it's makes no sense for the general wellbeing of the nation. By the way, I think President Obama does you all great credit and you are right to be very proud of him.

Thanks, Joanna. Somewhere around the Reagan era, Americans fell into the "greed is good," and"outdo the Joneses" pattern, and it has seemed to overtake common moral sense. That is because big business owns the major media and many politicians, and big business makes sure Americans keep feeling that way.

As Americans amass more "things," they pay less attention to their feelings and lose more of their souls. Just my opinion . . .

what about your car insurance - is it government run? I personally do not think it is the government's responsibility to be in the health care business. Now, if they want to offer guidelines to the insurance companies like not excluding for pre-existing illnesses, that's something else. Medicare is for seniors and the cost - we're all paying.

There is an interesting article on the Weekly Standard web page about responsibility. Also, friends and I were talking about issues also where the government is becoming our nanny.

responsibility article

just my two cents and I know you don't care.

This is a forum for debate. Every opinion should be aired I think. But I think health insurance is quite different from car, house etc insurance which have nothing to do with the government. If you can't afford car insurance then don't get a car - use the bus. But if you can't afford health insurance then.... what?

The reason govt is in place at all is to protect the people - what better way to protect its people than for a country/world to provide its citizens with the opportunity for the best health possible - our health is not an option - it is our life!

JoAnna that is an excellent point about car insurance. Although housing does somewhat fall into the same arena as health - especially when children are concerned (I believe).

Of course then we could get into the real sticky debate of should the gov't force birth control on those that are on welfare - and THAT is a very heated debate.

Although interestingly enough, I seem to see the side switch on that topic.

Those that are FOR public health care are AGAINST mandated bith control - ad vice/versa (Man I better stop here, because this could go waaaaaayyyy OT and be its own topic, LOL!)

Hi everyone, In my personal case, I have pretty decent health insurance,with many exceptions that are paid by way of out of pocket expenses to us (things that should get coverage ie. kids braces,eye glasses, and extended dental for ex.)

I have conditions and if I switch to a different insurance, I come to them w/pre-existing conditions that they either will not cover, or will partially cover! As an American I do not know which way to turn and I do not want to lose what I have for possibly worse! But I would want better coverage if I could! A rock in a hard place!

Mary Caliendp

The main difference as I see it is as I said - the govt's job is to protect - not control. Protection is necessary only because we are not yet ready to govern our own actions - if so we would no longer need gun laws, equal rights laws, anti-hate laws, etc. because as a society we would beyond the violent, prejudicial and hateful way some people conduct their lives. Until then the laws are there to protect us from ourselves. In an effort to move beyond mere protection to an arena of support govt provided basic needs - health and food (closely related to health) should never be something anyone should have to worry about. That said I do believe people should have to contribute back so handouts are not the answer either, which is what the nay-sayers are so worried about - teach a person to fish etc. is what we should be heading for - ensuring that people do not suffer from treatable and diseases is the right first step toward securing a future where we all look out for each other.

Wow, everybody. Thank you for all the great thoughts and comments. I wish I could write more, but I'm sick (I hope it's not the flu) so I'll be brief and then go back to my rocking chair and my tea.

I agree that government should protect, and help when helping people is for the general good. As in my personal example: without government help for college, I could have stayed in the projects and gotten pregnant, gone on welfare, and gotten into drugs. Instead, I learned a skill and became a productive, tax-paying citizen. (Not to say that all people who stay in the projects, get pregnant, etc. You know what I mean . . . just stretching a point for example.)

To Angie, with reform, the government would not be "getting into the health care business." The government would not be setting up the "U.S. Doctor's Office" in every town. Government employees would not be looking at your prescriptions and giving pharmacists permission to fill them. The government would be, as the pres. said, holding the ins. cos. accountable, as gov. does with many other industries -- for the general good.

I'm fading. Please keep the conversation going!

Susan - feel better soon!!!

Great discourse here as always.

How similar our background is Susan but yet we are not anywhere in the same neighborhood.

What I meant about car insurance - you shop around for the best deal and the most coverage. We know why our employers provide health insurance and how it came about; perhaps if it was like car insurance, it would work as well. Even with Medicare, you need a supplement because it doesn't cover it all.

To your last comment - we'll see what happens.

I do hope you feel better soon.

There have been and always will be problems in this world.

The only thing the government has been doing of late is spending more of our money and our children's money and getting bigger.
They are trying (and succeeding)in controlling more of our lives and putting an end to the only economic system that has ever worked - Capitalism.
Take a look at health care in countries such as Canada, France, the UK, and many others and compare it to health care in the US.
It's an abysmal mess in these government controlled systems. People wait months for basic medical treatments and procedures where in the US it's much quicker and much more advanced. People with the means to do so frequently come into the US for health care from these other state run systems because they know they'll get the best care in the world.
Do a web search of popular newspapers in the US and you'll see hundreds of articles comparing the government health care systems to free market health care here in the US. Some of the stories I've read about health care outside of the US is extremely depressing.
Think of government run programs here like Medicare and Social Security that are nearly bankrupt and full of waste, fraud, and inefficiencies.
The current system is far from perfect here in the US, but it's also by far the best in the world.

I also thought the same things about the health care systems you mentioned but the faults you attribute to those systems are false once you really delve into some real research instead of the media propaganda. From my research - you may have to wait longer for elective care but emergency and critical services are there when you need them. The care is as good as it gets here and it costs little to nothing for those who seek such care. Our health should not be part of the capitalist venture - far too many less important things to generate capital returns.

How good is Medicare and Medicaid...both government run programs...right to the ground. Government has run everything to the ground so far are they going to do better with National Healthcare. I don't need them sticking their nose into my business and telling me what to do. And where is all this money coming from to pay for all of this. Please don't tell me that the illegals won't be taken care of either. Nothing will change except government getting more and more into your lives and soon we will loose what little rights we have left as slowly they are being taken away. I am happy with my healtcare plan.

Yes, Health care is much more efficient run by corporate conglomerates like the insurance, pharmaceutical and other bio-medical corporations. Yes, it is run much better in the free-market system. No need to worry about having millions of uninsured and under-insured people in America. There is no need to worry about rising premium costs and shrinking insurance coverage under the current system. Yes, it all works so well. Let's run health care the free-market way, not the government way. Let corporate America run our nation's health care with the same high efficiency exhibited by corporations like Enron, AIG, Lehman Brothers. Let's entrust our health care system into the hands of a financial genius like Bernard Madoff. Wouldn't we all sleep better knowing our future health care is in the hands of these compassionate and trustworthy people and not in the hands of the government.

When was the last time you got a bill for a visit to the emergency room? A visit to the emergency room easily costs hundreds of dollars. And if you can't pay the bill collectors start calling you. A visit to the emergency room Never costs "nothing". It usually costs hundreds, if your lucky, or thousands of dollars. The more medical care you need in the ER the higher the bill. Ask someone who's been to the ER lately how much they were billed for the treatment they got there. I will be amazed if, for even a minor injury, it is less than $400.

Craig, I think you read that line out of context.

Susan was saying that Emergency care in other countries is "as good as it gets here and it costs little to nothing for those who seek such care."

It is a little easy to get lost when the conversation in flying fast and furious though!

I do have to agree that immediate services do seem to be equal in countries other than the US.

However, it is when we come to specialties that the US pulls far ahead (except far a few groundbreaking surgeons in Germany).

People DO fly into the US all the time for surgery here that they cannot get elsewhere. It is rarely the other way around, unless it is to lower cost. But inevitably when a person tries to "cut corners" on their healthcare, they wind up cutting on quality, too. (In most cases, there are a few excpetions I will concede.)

We have the best system that I know of - but it does have flaws, particularly people with pre-existing conditions, children, and the elderly; ironically the people who need healthcare the most.

And that is where it gets so tricky. Are we as a country supposed to just deny these poor folks the right to a better/healthy life just because of bad luck? Are we here in the US going to live by the adage "survival of the fittest"?

I urge everyone - no matter which side of the debate you are on to rent the movie "Gattaca". It gives some petty disturbing insight to just where we as a society may be headed for in the next 25 or so years.

Craig - Michelle is correct - I meant that it does not cost anything in the coutries that have govt healthcare.

Please keep in mind - the govt option will be only one choice if the bill is passed as Mr. Obama wants it. The bill will allow private insurance companies to continue to do business and everyone can choose which they prefer. The govt option will give the private insurance some healthy competition, once we get it together, and will hopefully lower the costs for us all - now that is capitalism at work.

I'm really shocked to read ppl complaining about this. I have to disagree about America�s brilliant health care � a place where you�re basically saying that the ill and/or poor should suffer because that's too bad for them or you don�t want to help out your fellow man, but if you�re rich or healthy well that�s just fine for you. Not exactly the Christian, love thy neighbour approach is it? That�s what society is � working together. Healthcare is the same everywhere � the more money you have, the better treatment you get. A horrible but true fact. That�s the same here in the UK with BUPA, but we also get amazing free healthcare � our healthcare is outstanding, and I know many Americans who come over here for their health and use the NHS, be that for money reasons or not � they still get a brilliant, efficient and fast service. I�m genuinely shocked that anyone would have a problem with what President Obama wishes to do � I think he�s (so far) a brilliant president and is leading America to where it should be. My aunt, when having a child in the US was told to leave the hospital unless she could provide her insurance straight away � and she was in labour! I�ve seen disabled people begging on the streets, when I lived over there, due to losing their homes because of health issues. Elderly people being refused treatment because they have no health care. I wont even get started on the psychological health issues over there. I think this is a fantastic thing for you all. I really hate the way that in many states the rich and the poor are so hugely segregated.
I agree that people will probably take advantage of it, but people take advantage of everything. People coming in from other parts of the world simply to use another countries medical services is wrong, but that�s another issue entirely.

I really feel that Steve-Cars has no right to make such a sweeping statement about how brilliant the USA healthcare is over the other countries he named. I find it quite amusing actually. Unless you�ve lived in a certain country for an extended period of time, you really shouldn�t pass judgements like that. All healthcare systems, including the USA and UK have their good and bad points, as does everything. "It's an abysmal mess in these government controlled systems." - I don't know what you're reading, but I've never found that to be true at all. I don't know anyone that has had to wait months for basical medical treatment - what a load of rubbish - the only reason ppl in certain states get faster services is because they have more money, which is exactly the same as in the UK. If I went private, I could see someone straight away too, but we don't turn away people because they can't afford the treatment and that's a huge and moral difference etc.

Michelle, you're right - the way some of these ppl's opinions read looks very much like the movie "Gattaca" - and wouldn't that be a scary and horrible place to live.

Steven,

Glad you brought in your personal perspective as one that lives in the UK. My sister-in-law came from England and was happy to correct my mistaken take on your health care system - after which I did my homework and learned about them all - this is where the internet glows - a global perspective for all if you just put in some time. No system is perfect but those that are against what President Obama is trying to create here really need to educate themselves about the realities and not just the rhetoric - thanks for offering such a point of reference.

I'm still not up to par, but all this discussion has perked me up a little bit. My question to the naysayers who believe our health care system is just fine and dandy: what would you do about the 47 million uninsured?

If you answer "They should get jobs and get health care that way," my response is, "What if they get laid off?"

If you answer, "They're not my problem," my response is, "Then stop saying you live in a society, because you are not acting as if you do."

The uninsured and poor affect all our lives. If we truly had the greatest health care system going, we wouldn't have them. We also wouldn't be perhaps the fattest country on earth.

I think the president's plan is very reasonable, and I think those who don't are not looking at it rationally. They are seeing takeover where none exists. Bush's Patriot Act, surveillance, etc. were takeover tactics -- not this plan.

Yes, Americans do come to the UK for treatment and I think many try to go to Canada for healthcare too. I met a woman in Atlanta whose husband had many years of treatment for cancer so they had long ago run out of insurance. They sold their house to pay for further treatment and moved in with her mother. He died in the end and she was still left with all the bills for his treatment. So she was a young widow, with no house and in huge debt. I felt so sorry for her. Explain how that is the best healthcare system in the world?
My family and I use the NHS frequently (my father in law has been ill for 40 years - how would he have fared in the States? They would be living with us no doubt). If you are rich and can afford private health care then you can have it in the Uk. Why don't the millions who have no healthcare stage a huge march on WAshington telling their stories to the nation. Would the others really be unmoved by their plight?

I think that is the big fear most people have - that we will not have a choice. Obama does come off as a bit of a Socialist at times, and when you first hear his speeches (epsecially if you are a die-hard, extreme left conservative) then he comes off like he wants gov't to take charge of everything and not just have an influence in things.

When his healthcare proposal first came out it was a knee-jerk response (bred of fear) that he meant gov't run healthcare would be the only option. Most people do not realize that you can have gov't funded AND private insurance at the same time. At almost seems like an oxymoron, LOL!

Michelle, (I agree that people are having a hard time understanding the coexistence of private and public health care. As for Obama sounding socialist, I think liberalism sounds socialist after eight years of extreme conservatism bordering on fascism.

The 47 million uninsured is a fictitious number first broadcast by President Obama. His last speech had the number at 30 million.
I suppose then, if we just wait until he makes a few more speeches the number will continue to shrink !
I don't think anyone feels that the US system of health care is fine and dandy by any means. It remains though, the best health care system in the world.
The biggest problem with the proposed plan, is that the approximately 15 million illegal aliens in this country will be covered at the taxpayer's expense.
One of the reasons that the state of CA. is bankrupt, is the extremely high cost of health care do to the influx of illegals. In my company, we on the east coast will pay 11% out of pocket for health care while our sister company on the west coast will pay 23%.
Like most of the other programs proposed by this administration, government run health care will significantly raise everyone's taxes. At least those of us that actually pay them.
There's also little truth to the statements that if you're happy with your current health care plan and or providers, you can keep them. Companies will be penalized for using health plans outside of the government proposed plan.

Also, if you look at the definition of Fascism, I think you'll find that the current administration and Commander in Chief represents many of the traits of a fascist as defined by The American Heritage dictionary:
Fascism a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
This government has taken control or is planning to take control of a wide range of industries and sectors of the economy. The domestic car companies (except for Ford), the energy industry with Cap and Trade (Tax), proposed government controlled health care, etc. Those who openly oppose their programs have been called racist, mob-like, swatsticka wearing (Nancy Pelosi),liars and other names.
The current and past problems with ACORN are representative of the problems big government sometimes supports. What may start as a program with the best of intentions can quickly spin out of control, especially when the government supports them with millions of tax dollars.

Sorry for carrying on... As you can see, I have my own very strong feelings and I've tried (and hopefully succeeded) in being respectful in presenting a different opinion.

Steve

So every Western country that has universal healthcare, all of Europe, Canada and Australia, are fascist but Communist countries such as China and Vietnam that do not have free healthcare are ok?
What a strange view of the world you have.

Steve,

First of all, I think you did a very good job of presenting your opinion respectfully. I hope to do the same in this reply. To answer some of your points:

1. About the 47 million: if you go to FactCheck.org and search for "uninsured U.S. citizens" you will find the real number. It is very close to 47 million.

2. In my opinion, saying that we have the best health care system in the world is similar to rooting for your favorite baseball team, no matter how they are doing. The U.S. ranks at number 37 in health care among all countries in the world, according the the World Health Organization. A Reuters article from this January reports that we rank 19 out of the 19 leading industrialized countries in the world when it comes to preventing preventable deaths, and the reasoning is that care in the U.S. is pretty good if you have access to it, but since 40-some million don't, that lowers our rank.

3. About the illegal aliens and companies being penalized for using other than the "government-proposed plan," if you go the FactCheck.org and search for "seven falsehoods" you will find an article that explains why both those things are not true. You may have to scroll down a while to get to your claims.

4. About how health care reform (that's what it is, I believe, not "government-run health care") will raise taxes -- if it does, what would you rather pay taxes for? Would you rather not pay taxes for health care for your fellow citizens and perhaps wind up walking over their dead bodies in the street some day as the situation worsens over the years? If you wind up uninsured, will you be happy to go it alone and not have your fellow citizens pay taxes to help you? I realize your answer may be "yes." That's where we differ, and differ respectfully.

5. On fascism in our government: again, we differ in our viewpoint. I saw fascism in the Bush administration's handpicking of people to attend his speeches, so that opposing views would not be heard. I saw fascism in Dick Cheney's handling of terror suspects -- people not accused of any crime being ripped away from their lives and imprisoned and tortured.

I do not think the Obama administration is suppressing the opposition at all! As for some people in government calling the opposition racist, well, according to my Webster's, a racist is one who believes that a particular race is inherently superior to another race. I don't think it's off-the-wall to think that people holding signs depicting Obama as a witch-doctor or as Curious George (a monkey) are subtly implying that he is inferior to them by virtue of his skin color.

As for the "belligerent nationalism," that is coming from the anti-Obama people, the people who preferred Bush and McCain -- not from those who support Obama, so I don't think your argument for the Obama administration being fascist holds up.

In closing, thank you for your comments. I agree with you about how government programs can spin out of control. I just still think we need them sometimes, especially for the marginalized who cannot access the free market.

And, I feel I must say that the health care reform bill has only one piece that would be "government-run" -- the public option that would be open to only the uninsured and that would function in a manner similar to Medicare. I don't get why that's such a threat to people.

Susan

Two separate issues. I'm not sure how you make that assumption based on what was written ?
Universal health care and fascism have nothing to do with one another and I clearly separated the two in my response.

I'm sorry, what assumption are you referring to?

Susan I agree with the need for healthcare reform, what troubles me is, the focus in regard to Preventive Care is exclusively Pills and regular checkups: 66% of americans are obese or diabetic- including some Doctors and Nurses! What's needed is more incentives for Healthy lifestyles- and a decent, reasonable tax on Soda; which, hopefully, would be used to boost proven nutrition programs, such as Meals on Wheels and Government Commodities: The latest proposals out on Healthcare reform doesn't even mention this!

I agree, Cindy. But, I'm not seeing hope for the idea of true "health" in our "health care" system going anywhere. I was stunned to see that our new Surgeon General, Dr. Regina Benjamin is working part time as scientific advisor for *Burger King* of all places. While she is promoting lower salt in the food, working with them financially links her to this fast food corportation - an icon to grease, corn syrup and the American addiction to way too much meat consumption.

I voted for Obama, but I feel he's taking a turn in a bad direction on this.

Shannon

Shannon and Cindy, you bring up good points. I also think sometimes that President Obama is trying too hard to please everyone, as in, "You can have your Burger King; we'll lower the salt." I hope to have an article on taxing soda for next week.

Lots of great discussion here - as you all bring up such good points I hope you are sharing them with your representatives as well - we are the government - none of us should ever forget that!

Susan,

FactCheck.org doesn't claim to dispense the truth. They're an internet-based service that supposedly analyzes the accuracy of political advertising. They're funded by the liberal Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania, a group that the was Barack Obama�s employer from 1995-99 so I don't put much stock into what they report. There are also millions of people that choose not to pay for health care. They are usually the young and rich. I don't know if there is a way to be able to count the number of people in this group but it's not incidental.

Again, the number of illegals and others that do not have health care (other than the free health care they receive at emergency rooms) can't be considered in rating a country's health care. One can make a general statement that US health care is awful because these groups of people do not participate, but for those that pay for it and receive it, I believe it's still the best.

I never heard that President Bush hand-picked people to attend speeches. I have heard that Obama has done this but, it doesn't surprise me that all political candidates would do that and it doesn't bother me.
I would certainly identify President Obama not speaking with Republican members of Congress about alternatives health care plans after clearly stating that he would opposition and suppression.
Ramming a 1,000 + page health care plan through the Senate without giving its members a chance to fully read and understand it is certainly suppression. These are just a few simple examples.
Is imprisoning and "torturing" terror suspects that most likely saved thousands of American lives a bad thing ? The military thwarted a planned attack in LA similar in scope to 9/11 last year. I'll trade imprisoning even innocent people (until tried) for possible attacks on the US. It's no coincidence that we were not attacked again for the past 8 years. I'm not at all confident that we will continue to be safe here in America.

I don't think there is anything belligerent about the Tea Party demonstrations that some of the democratic pundents have vulgarly called tea ba**ing. Also, it's not a matter of being pro-Bush or anti-Obama. It's the policies that are being proposed that people are against. The color of Obama's skin has nothing to do with the policies being proposed.

Steve

How could anyone in their right mind be pro-Bush? I think he's the most idiotic, vile creature ever since his father. I also think his attack on terror was planned from the start, and I don't believe it was for the greater good either.

Steve Casey - come on don't be shy - say what you really mean.

You have expressed my feelings exactly.

That said a great deal of what people are worried and complaining about with their own health care concerns are left over from the last administration's complete lack of concern for any person on the planet. Much of what is now in dispute is left over fear-mongering and divisive engineering - tactics that won Bush a second term when he never should have had a first. Fear is a powerful driver.

Well, I don't know - this might sound a bit paranoid, especially with all the cover up stories surrounding things etc. I have my doubts about the twin towers though, and wouldn't be shocked to hear it was an inside government job - so that Bush could finish what his father started. I think it was mostly over oil and power - I mean he went in there looking for Osama Bin Laden and got Husain, what happened to Bin Laden???

I would put a bet down that Bush bought his way into power, and when he was in power he did so much damage in such a short time, it was shocking. Not to mention that the man is a complete fool - he can't even read a speech. This is all off subject, but it all led to where America is now standing. Obama has probably got to spend his first term cleaning up Bush's mess.

No, I disagree - I think Bush and his cronies did enormous damage to his country and the world but even he wouldn't have ordered the attack on the twin towers. I don't believe that for a second. I think we have to keep sane otherwise we'll be joining the ranks of loonies just like some right wingers.

Well, hopefully not - but I certainly wouldn't be surprised is all I'm saying. It all just seemed too convieniant, for him anyway. Not for us, Joanna, you know yourself how we over weren't listened to over the entire war on terror.
But either way, I didn't like how he used the tragedy to suit certain needs. I think he was, like I said above, after things other than justice.

Steve - Cars:

Once again, we disagree, which is so American of us!

1. Your first sentence is an opinion you present as a fact. Here is FactCheck's mission, from their site:

We are a nonpartisan, nonprofit "consumer advocate" for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. We monitor the factual accuracy of what is said by major U.S. political players in the form of TV ads, debates, speeches, interviews and news releases. Our goal is to apply the best practices of both journalism and scholarship, and to increase public knowledge and understanding.

If you really believe they are partisan because Obama was employed by U. of Penn., I really believe you are paranoid. I also believe your paranoia may be a result of watching too much Fox News. (I'm assuming, not stating a fact that you watch Fox News.)

2. Your take on health care: If you really believe ours can be judged best because it works for those who are currently employed and can afford it,I really believe you are not inclined to see government and society as an organism that seeks to achieve its optimum capacity. You have every right to feel that way.

3. Hand-picking speech attendees: If you really never heard about Bush's notorious hand-picking, I really believe you need to expand your sources of information. I personally do not read only liberal news sources. I try to read from as many viewpoints as possible, and then form my opinion based on a combination of the facts and my value system.

4. About Republican alternatives for health care reform: just today on thehill.com, Chuck Grassley says the Baucus bill reflects significant Republican input. A side comment from me: if you want others to listen to your opinions and take you seriously, it's probably not a good idea to go on television and say you want to "break" them.

5. Ramming a 1,000+ page bill through: you must mean the Patriot Act! That was rammed through in the dead of night! This bill has a long way to go; there's no ramming here. There are committees and rewrites ahead.

6. Trading imprisoning the innocent for possible attacks: Well, that's a disagreement on one of the basic ideas about government and morality -- what is the worth of one life? What is the worth of national security? Neither of us can answer it; we just disagree.

7. Tea Bag vulgarity: You know, I really don't think the media calls them Tea Baggers because they are equating them with people who engage in oral/genital contact. I mean, that would make no sense. In fact, I never heard of the sexual context until people on this forum told me about it. My assumption: somebody in the media told you the Tea Baggers were being insulted, just to make you angrier, the way they want you to be.

8. It's Obama's policies that people are against: If you really believe that, then please explain to me what holding signs showing Obama dressed as a witch doctor (which people did at the 9/12 rally) has to do with his policies. The anti-tax activist, David McKalip, who sent the witch-doctor picture to a Tea Bag email group back in July, also apologized and resigned as president-elect of the Pinellas Medical Association. But apparently, some people who got the picture decided to use it in Sept. Can you explain how it connects to any policy of Obama's?

Oh, Steve-cars, we could go back and forth forever. How about if, instead, you focus your energy on getting the country you want by working to elect people who agree with your views, and I'll do the same. We can't change each other. Thanks for telling your side. For companionship, you might do better at the republican Party forum.

Good night and good luck,
Susan

Are you sure we're not the same person? How can two people be of one mind as often as we are?
Susan

Steve Casey,

Thanks for your comments. I love your passion. A gentle reminder: we want to keep the forum free of excessive name-calling (i.e., idiot, etc.) so that visitors here will not think we are merely name callers. We want them to be impressed with our command of the facts and our intelligent opinions. You have both, I know. Keep commenting!
Susan

Joanna,

As always, thank you for your comment.

Susan

LOL - Sorry guys, I'm sure there are some highly intelligent ppl out there that supported Bush. I'll hold back on the sarcasim This is an interesting one to watch actually, I like reading everyone's points of view and it's amazing how some differ so greatly, though obvious.

Yes, Steve. amazing is the word, for sure.

This is a depressing article - looks like vested interests and big money will succeed (makes a nonsense of democracy doesn't it?)
Millions spent opposing healthcare reform

Yes, Joanna. I've been quite depressed lately, realizing more and more and more how big business runs this country. I'm not sure how to change that, unless our politicians just say no to them and put them in a position where they have to make healthier food, build smaller cars, be content with decent-sized profits, etc. But, the lure of money to these people is so great -- I can't relate to that or begin to imagine how to change it.

Thanks for posting the article.
Susan

What an utter disgrace - that's all I can say. Shouldn't this be even more reason why it should be brought in? If these insurance and drug companies can buy ppl off with those amounts, think of what they must be bringing in? It must be a drop in the ocean to them - utter greed.

I know -- it boggles my mind. I mean, at some point,what else can you buy? Where else can you go? What else can you own? At some point, doesn't it become meaningless?

Have you seen Michael Moore on Politically Incorrect and on PBS's Tavis Smiley? He is discussing his new movie, "Capitalism: A Love Story."

He is an amazing voice for the real America. Here is a great speech he recently made for the press concerning health care:
Michael Moore's Message to Obama

Go, Michael!

Shannon

Ooops, it's "Real Time" now, not "Politically Incorrect"!

Thanks, Shannon. I saw him on Larry King and he was saying exactly what I believe -- that we are here to help others, not to amass wealth.

I give him credit for the way he keeps going. You're right -- he is a voice for us all.

I wonder if Obama pays attention to what Michael Moore says? I'm really hoping that he does. I feel that Michael might be able to pull Obama back from the direction he seems to be heading in - which is away from what he is really about. He seems to have been sucked into a political game he thought he could elude. I can see how that could happen, and it's what I was afraid would happen. But there is still time for him to be reawakened, don't you think? Aren't we still allowed the audacity of hope?

I've been thinking about that all day today, Shannon. Really. I hope we can all pull him back. I can only imagine how much of the "game" is revealed to you the day you step into the Oval Office, but I still believe he can be above it, and carry us with him. (That sounds messiah-like, but that's not the way I mean it. I mean it in the true sense of a leader.) I guess it's time to write him a letter -- again.

Good talking with you,
Susan

No, Susan not "messiah-like" at all. He is our president, the leader of our country, and we would like to think that we the people can steer him back on course. To be the wonderful leader we voted for. I am grateful for Michael Moore's voice, and I believe ours can be heard right along with his!

Good talking with you too, Susan.

Shannon

Michael Moore is a hypocrite and takes advantage of those that he covers for his own gain.
What do you think he gets paid to make these so called documentaries ? Who do you think supports him ???
He's also got his facts all wrong (no surprise) on the support that Obama has for his health reform plan. According to Monday's latest Rasmussen poll, "Just 41% of voters nationwide now favor the health care reform proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats." A far cry from the 75% majority of Americans he talks about supporting the plan.

Michael Moore gets paid by the companies that distribute his films. His films expose wrongdoing and therefore seek to help the people in his films.

As for the poll number, according to PolitiFact.com, "We'll cut Moore some slack regarding the September poll. It wasn't publicly released until Sept. 29, a couple of days after Moore first made the comment."

And, by the way, you got your facts wrong, too, because Moore was talking about single-payer, not Obama's proposed plan.

See, we can play tit-for-tat forever, but that doesn't get us any closer to understanding each other or solving any problems.

I find your comments full of cynicism and, if you are cynical, I wonder why. Have you been hurt by past political decisions?

Sincerely,
Susan

Steve, I also see the cynicism in your post. Michael Moore dares to expose the underlying truth in his work. I feel it is imperative that we all quietly examine these truths, for the sake of our basic understanding of our faltering nation's flaws and blunders. Michael is the last true American hero, IMHO. He speaks loudly for the quiet American majority. We want Obama back on that track, too.

Shannon

Yes getting Obama back on track is vital - what can/should we be doing toward that end?

Too many listening to too many distortions from the public voice is quite disheartening. Realizing that even though the Dems have a super majority and still cannot get a bill passed is even moreso. Add to that that the Republicans won't pass a bill that they have ravaged and then scripted to include money for abstinence only education (and we all know how well that works) and one wonders how effective our government opperates even within its own walls.

What can we do from the grass roots level?

That's a tough one, Susan. Really, the only thing we can do is get loud. Only problem there is most Obama supporters are the silent majority. This is why we need Michael Moore. What's happened is the Republican Party has tons of loud voices - only they make loud falsehoods that cause a ruckus, throwing everything off track. Obama then spends his time talking calmly to them and those who get caught up in it all, trying to explain reality. But you can't talk sense to loud people who only understand falsehoods. They only see it as part of the game, and won't change their minds. They just get louder. Then Obama caves under pressure. He's too willing to please the loud ones. Again, this is why we need Michael Moore - he is the symbol of grassroots America. Check out his Facebook page and get involved in that way - he hears the quiet voice, then translates it to loud. That's what I did.

I tried getting involved through the Obama Site, but all they wanted was money. Money? They get millions from the monsterous corporations they are supposed to be putting caps on. The ones who back up the loud voices. If they were interested in the quiet voice, they would put their ear to the page, IMHO.

Shannon and Susan,

We're all on the same wavelength. I don't find anything really worthwhile to do on the Obama site. I think MoveOn is too scattered -- asking me to sign a health care petition one day and the next day sending me something about something else.

I think the Dems have lost the spirit that got Obama elected. All I can think of to do is "get loud," as Shannon said. Just spread the truth wherever we can. And maybe let Obama know we're not happy. He thinks he can afford to appease the "loudmouths" because we will just follow.

But remember the beautiful email he sent to his supporters just before making the speech in Grant Park? Something about how we made this possible? Well, he needs to know that we expect more than to be told, like the "good' kids in class, to keep quiet while he deals with the "misbahavers."

I'll be back online tomorrow. So good talking with you.
Susan

Yes, Susan. There was all of the fervor and high emotions; then something went "click" as soon as he entered the White House. It's as if the message from the government was, "Step away. We've got him now." And Obama was sequestered; lost.

And I love what MM said in his interview with Tavis Smiley. He looked right into the camera and told Obama that if he let us all down, that MM would go after him with just as much force as he did with GWB. Good! He knows he's being watched...

I think people who are only concerned with money and self interest cannot believe there are people who genuinely care about others. They think they must have some agenda, some self serving interest but they just can't work out what it is. They judge other people by their own standards. anyone who supports health care for the masses must in fact be in the pay of someone (who? the poverty stricken?).
Don't turn on Obama - he's a good man but sadly he is still trying to talk to people that you can't really reason with. (I've just remembered that was the argument Tony Blair used about fighting Al Qaeda - you can't reason with these people because they are bonkers).
In the end, Obama has to stop listening and just do what he was elected to do. Sometimes you have to force things through. that's what happened in 1948 when they brought in national health care to Britain - they forced it through despite objections from all the vested interests because that was what they were elected to do.

That is what I wish Obama would do - just get it done. Unfortunately though the checks and balances in place - ironically to protect the people from too much bias from one side - are makung a tough task impossible. Even the Democratic party will not support the health care reform with enough votes to see it through - despite its majority hold. Truly makes one want to just scream.

Don't worry, Joanna! We're not turning on Obama, just feeling a little let down. We want to see him take the reigns he had a firm grasp on when we elected him. We believed that if anyone could take on the government, and see through all the smoke screens, it was him. It's hard to see him losing his grip.

I just saw the movie Sicko for the first time. Are you happy with your health-care system in the UK?

Unemployment is up to 9.8% and a few CNBC commentators predict it will climb above 10% by Christmas. Increasing SNAP Food credit for low income seniors and those with doctor ordered restricted diets would create more jobs almost immediately in the food industry; and I also suggested a "Healthfood" scratch ticket,( Top prize, $500 healthfood store credit- not redeemable for cash) since a large number of working poor play the lottery: Yet noone seems to take my ideas seriously.