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It's a shame that more people aren't willing to engage in open conversation about such a hot-button issue. I did notice that the pro-choice forum users seem to get very perturbed when pro-lifers join in their forum's dialogue, but they have no trouble jumping in here...

I'm simply concerned about the double standard. I welcome the pro-choicers to come here and engage in civil discussions. What isn't welcome here - or any other board at Bella, for that matter - is flaming, abusive language, threats, etc. If you can get your point across without haranguing others, be my guest and jump in... One word of caution, though, I noticed some heated threads that had devolved into name-calling; that's ridiculous and won't be tolerated here.

As for pro-lifers that have deliberately tried to incite arguments at the pro-choice forum (only 1 or 2 users), please refrain from being inflammatory in the future. The friendly debates and learning conversations are a great thing, though, so just remember to be respectful...

Bottom line: more people than you realize are reading your words right now, and some are forming lasting, critical opinions and convictions. Be very careful before you hit "submit;" that's for both sides of the debate.


Rebecca Orczeck
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Hi Rebecca,

I'm of the Pro-Choice variety myself, but having been in a few discussions lately and then having seen this post pop up on the right-side column, I wanted to see what your post was about.

Thank you for welcoming me, even though my particular belief, with regard to the title of the room I'm currently in, differs from others.

I used to be on the Pro-Life side of the fence, mostly from the age of reason until I was about 28. I was Catholic until about 2 years ago, and I'm now 36. So being Catholic and being Pro-Life was a bit of a dichotomy, since advocating life under all circumstances is one of their tenets.

The children I taught in CCD (the Catholic term for children's Sunday school) never knew I was Pro-Choice, and I even lied when they asked me about it, always upholding the Church doctrine for them.

Whoops...just got company. I'll finish this post when I can, later tonight hopefully.

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(continued from last post)

Anyway, so even though I'm Pro-Choice now, I know the main reasons why many people choose to advocate the Pro-Life stance after being there myself.

If I ever post in here, I will be respectful of everyone's views, as I consider myself a guest, and I would think the gist of any of my posts in here would be to simply say, "I see your point."

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Welcome, and yes I am Pro-Choice. Just to be fair you have to admit that alot of the "discussions" do get heated after very disrespectful words and very derogatory accusations are used. I honestly don't think the Pro-Choice board does not welcome Pro-Life visitors as long as the same respect is given. Sorry not trying to be difficult but trying to point out that respect works both ways.

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Thank you both for replying. I'm glad to know that there are people here on BellaOnline boards willing to be civil and thoughtful if any debates/discussions are brought up.

I understand what you're saying, CrochetQueen. After reading several threads, I think there are both pro-choice and pro-life readers who would rather close their eyes and see the people on the other side of the debate go away. That's not very fair or open-minded, and it's not my personal stance on dealing with people w/conflicting opinions- here on the boards or in my personal/professional life.

Luckily, I do believe the majority of readers here are intelligent and are truly seeking education, not a fight. That's why I originally posted the "Welcome, civil people" sentiments with a few ground rules for those who are bent on causing problems.

Realistically, I doubt we're all going to sit down for tea anytime soon and come around to a universal verdict on the abortion matter. That said, we are certainly not enemies and this isn't a war zone...

Climbing down from the soapbox now....


Rebecca Orczeck
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It would be nice to have intelligent conversations without the sweeping remarks such as, "All pro-lifers hate women."



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It would be nice to have an intelligent conversation, period. Sweeping statements that I cannot debate about (see "Questions about pro-choice) because in their eyes I am and always will be wrong, chap my hide. Why bother to ask when you're not open to debate?

In the end, this topic comes down to belief. As far as I can tell, people who are pro-life believe that a fertilized egg/embryo/fetus in any stage of development is a human being and has a right to be protected even to the detriment of the economical/emotional/medical health of the woman bearing it. I do not.

You have your beliefs, I have mine; I don't call you names, please do not try to shame me, call me names, inflict your philosophy/morality/religion on me.

May I start a topic in your forum if I promise to behave?

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It depends on the reason for your need to have the conversation. NO one used to believe that it was okay to arbitrarily end a pregnancy simply for convenience sake. There was a time where we as a society would not have considered that any more than beating someone to death.
All those that belief life is sacred from conception to grave aren't intellectual nicompoops. If life isnt sacred in general, and we don't draw lines in the sand, then life isn't valuable at all.
Why does society keep changing the parameters of what is sacred, valuable, right or wrong? What kind of outcome are we looking for from this sliding scale?
That might be a discussion worth having, but trying to make people feel foolish for caring that much isn't.



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calligrapher, I did not call anyone an intellectual nincompoop. You (general you) have your beliefs, I have mine. I just find it very frustrating to be considered this immoral/evil/horrible person just because I have different beliefs. And if you do not think that of me, I apologize, but that is certainly the vibe I get from most all people who are pro-life. Certain members of my family are vehemently pro-life. So I keep my mouth shut around my family and fume as they tsk tsk about those morally bankrupt women who kill babies or want to keep it legal.

I do have a what-if situation I would like your (again, general you) opinion on. It is not one I have ever been in, but it is one I easily could have been in when I was younger.

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Before this conversation degenerates into a real furnace...

Let me remind everyone that just because someone hits "reply" does not necessarily mean they are replying to your statement. It is just the easiest way to join a conversation.

This is one of those issues thast everyone takes personally, so don't read extra into posts that a person is necessarily attacking YOU.


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No I don't think you called anyone a nincompoop, that is just a general attitude I get from women. Again general. As if somehow this newly accepted form of viewing life is more intellectually valuable than the previous one, held for centuries. It's merely a different point of view, not a more enlightened one. I personally get that a lot, but not from you specifically.
I am sorry if I offended you in any way. My experience is either hostility because I haven't had baby after baby (and I have several so this is absurd) or hostility because I didn't abort the first and chase my career. I can't find a place where I dont' get crud for my decisions, so I understand the frustration you feel for yours.
Blessings!


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Speaking as someone who has had to miscarriages, which were physically, and emotionally damaging, I am strongly pro-life for many reasons. Basically...life is life and no one can change that. You can call pro-choice an opinion, but it's really not. That is just the way someone justifies their own wrong. I am against government control as much as the next person, but I am also against murder. Life is life and since humans are not the maker, we can't be the taker either.


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Speaking as someone who has two miscarriages, which were physically, and emotionally damaging, I am strongly pro-life for many reasons. Basically...life is life and no one can change that. You can call pro-choice an opinion, but it's really not. That is just the way someone justifies their own wrong. I am against government control as much as the next person, but I am also against murder. Life is life and since humans are not the maker, we can't be the taker either.

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While I don't agree with abortion, I am starting to have a different perspective on the legalities of it.

Of course I would LOVE it to be illegal, since I feel as though our society is too much of a throwaway society when it comes to things that are inconvenient to us... and I fear it is a slippery slope when it comes to things like this.

At the same time, there are plenty of other things that are legal that people do and get away with that go against my beliefs as well.

In the end, we each have to answer to our own actions (imo) regardless of whether what we have done was deemed legal or illegal by society's standards.

I almost think that more education & more helpful alternatives (minus the preachy/religious aspect of it) would be more beneficial and helpful to the cause of saving lives than some of the extreme measures I have seen and read about being taken in the fight against abortion.

More facts and & figures showing what a market it is, who is getting rich off of it, figures on how many per state, per doctor's office, etc are being aborted on a monthly or yearly basis. How many have had complications due to having one (or many). How many have had one who were not on any form of birth control. How many have had multiple abortions. Stats on WHY the person was having the abortion (rape, incest, convenience). Why hide these facts? Put them all out there, let us be educated when we make our choices in return.

These facts are usually inconsistent, hard to find, at odds with each other, etc. and why? Because the people making money off of it don't want to shock us into realizing what is going on. We wouldn't need laws if instead of using over-the-top images of aborted fetuses we started giving women more REAL information. At least, that is what I would hope. Maybe I am being too hopeful here.

I find it really hard to believe that when a woman gets pregnant she ONLY see's the pregnancy as a "tissue" and doesn't really comprehend it is a child she is carrying. She may deny it to make herself feel better, imo, but the end result of carrying that "tissue" results in a child. A human being. Period. If she chooses to abort that "tissue", she ultimately chooses to kill a human being. Let's be honest here and quit trying to cloak what's going on in terms that depersonalizes it. The fact that so many have such a hard time post-abortion in dealing with it goes to show it is more than just "tissue" imo.

Going hand in hand with this, I think more could probably be done with making adoption easier in the U.S. I've never personally tried to adopt but I have always heard how hard it is to adopt here. Perhaps if adoption were made easier there would be less people willing to have abortions.

We are such a me-first society that I think abortion will always be around. It's way too convenient.


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I don't think anyone in Missouri is getting rich since they have tried to get around the legality of it. There are only a few places here that they are done. The patient doctor confidentiality is what worries me. It use to be it was between a woman and her doctor, now it has to be public knowledge.
Let women decide for themselves what they want to do with their own bodies. We haven't had the vote for very long and will probably never get equal pay. Don't they think women are intelligent enough to decide.

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I really do not know where my stance is. I am pro-life in my heart of hearts but I am not one to picket Planned Parenthood and I do not believe the government should take away the woman's freedom of choice.

I do not believe a fetus should be aborted because it is a nuisance that could have been prevented but I also do not believe that a woman should carry to full term if it is a health risk to her or if she was a victim of a rape and the baby is just going to be a horrific reminder of the incident.

I do believe that all options should be exhausted before a pregnancy is terminated.


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I am also pro-life, with a very few excpetions.

If the mother's life is at risk, I think this is a very hard choice. In most cases the baby would wind up dying with the mother anyway, so aborting is saving 1 life as opposed to saving zero lives.

In the case of rape - I am always torn on this one. I was a victim of rape. I, however, was lucky not to become pregnant because of this event. I do know that the trauma of my rape has lived with me - well it still lives with me - 20 years later. I would like to say I would have given the child up for adoption, but I cannot in all honesty say I would have been that strong.

In cases of incest, this is an incredibly traumatic thing to put the (usually young) mother through. Not only is it rape, but it is "dirty" rape - at least that is how the victim usually sees herself. Plus the chance for genetic abnormalties in the child are very high. Although it hurts, I have to say that I believe in this case abortion is the better call.

For those that choose abortion just for convenience, this I do not agree with. If a woman has the means to afford an abortion, then she had the means to afford birth control and should have excercised that right instead. It is not fair to take a life just because someone doesn't want stretch marks.

I realize there are all sorts of scenarios that fall in between these two extremes. I do not have the right to judge any of them. I really don't have the right to judge the woman I just mentioned (although, obviously I do).

But that is why I think it is way more important to offer women choices about birth control first, then options other than abortion second. Then if an abortion is done, be there to offer forgiveness if she wants or needs it.

Unless we have been in this situation, we will never know what kind of internal struggle each woman has in making this decision. And, sorry men, you will never know.


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The truth is though that medical and traumatic abortions (rape/incest) make up less than 2% of abortions. The rest is birth control or because of prenatal testing (which is horrible IMO because of the high rate of false positives. You are just as likely killing a perfectly healthy baby as one with Down's, etc).

But yes - I agree with the comments above. For me, personally, the only reason I would ever terminate a pregnancy would be in the case of ectopic or other life-threatening pregnancy condition. My living children would have to come first in that case. Even if I were raped I don't think I could kill a child. The innocent baby shouldn't have to suffer for his father's crime. If I felt like my husband and I couldn't raise the child lovingly I would seek a good adoption situation.

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I continue to see this issue as a personal choice. I don't believe that morality and ethics can be effectively legislated. I also know that if the government attempted to prevent this activity, we'd end up with some really nasty situations with backroom "clinics" and coat-hangar abortions.

I would not opt to abort and would be happy to share my views on the issue if ever a friend or acquaintance sought guidance; but in the end, it is the individual's right to choose how they will manage the results of their personal actions.

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Yes, you can't say in a law - abortion is OK for 1,2,3; but not allowed for a,b,c.

Legally I believe abortion must remain legal. But I also believe that abortions going into the 3rd term should remain illegal. This is most definitely a child that could possible live outside of the womb. It has been shown many, many times in pre-term babies.

I think the issues comes down to education, just as we need more education in birth control issues. And more openness in these issues - not condemnation, which only causes shame and hiding, not prevention.


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I feel like I am in the middle of this issue like some others who have answered. I'm not going to try to stop a woman from making the choice, but I think it is generally the wrong choice.

I've heard people say that you can't be pro-choice and pro-life, but I disagree. I simply believe it is between the person making the choice and their higher power.

I agree especially with Michelle's last post. Education is key. We need to prevent and not by just preaching abstinence but by a complete discussion of birth control.


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I would like to draw the reaction primarily of those who are "pro-choice".
My position is probably going to be obvious after you read my question, but it is irrelevant so instead of jumping on me please explain.
I am trying to understand the moral justification and the reasoning behind the choice of "terminating a pregnancy".
My question is how is terminating a life in the womb is different from terminating a life out of the womb?
If for any reason it is ok to terminate a baby in the womb why can't I terminate it after the birth and to go further if it is ok to make it a choice of convenience, why is it illegal to terminate our elderly or those who's existence is inconvenient for us let's say because they can't take care of themselves.
This is a real question not a provocation and I really would like to see some real reasoning here.
For years I've been asking this same question but everybody just started to attack me and I have never received a real answer.
Please don't tell me about rapes and down syndrome, religious or non-religious beliefs and all that stuff, that's not what I am interested in. I am trying to understand the ideological reasoning behind being "pro choice", so I'd be able to relate to or understand that position better.

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I am very Pro-Choice and will tell you my opinion on it as I can't really speak for others. As far as being "moral", for me that does come into the picture but people get an abortion for other than medical reasons, such as a money reason and circumstances. Yes we can say all day long...keep your legs closed...we all know how much that works especially with young adults (It doesn't work). I don't really believe live begins at conception and honestly neither does the medical field. For me it is a matter of a group of cells (in the womb to a certain stage) vs a group of cells that have developed and have breath (out of the womb). It is a very personal choice and if anyone wants to have an abortion they should have a right to make that decision and should also have a clean environment instead of a back alley. It seems a little to me that most Pro-Life people have this impression that if someone gets an abortion they are a terrible person, when in fact that is not true (remember thou shalt not judge) and unless you have been in someone's shoes, you can't know what it is like to have to be faced with this decision. We are all different. I would like to know if you help in any way with people facing this decision and figured I would give a list since I have been in this situation: Can you guarantee the person that you will stick by their side, pay all the medical expenses, help with food, rent, shoes, clothes, feelings, pay time off work, etc. etc. If a person is single remember they will have to handle this all on their own and speaking as a use to be single Mom of two, I can tell you that even though I never had enough money, I was never able to get any type of aide because they said I made too much money....it's not as easy as you think. Anyway hope this made some sense.

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Dear CrochetQueen. Why do you feel being judged? I have asked a simple question and got the same attack (and self justification at the same time) that I usually get.
At least you gave me a partial answer ("life does not begin at conception") Does that mean that a fetus is dead matter until it begins to breath?
If so, why are people unable to breath on their own with no brainfunctions considered legally alive?
Again no judging just trying to understand.

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Dear windryder, I don't feel judged at all and you did not get any attack from me. I still stand by my opinion and although I am far from a medical person, to my knowledge someone who has no brain function is considered "brain dead" and they are being kept alive by letting a machine breath for them, they are not considered alive they are being kept breathing from a legal standpoint, again that is how I see it. And as long as we are all breathing we will have different views. Abortion has been around since the beginning of life (concoctions to drink or eat were made for those who did not wish to give birth). I personally will never tell a friend or family what they should or shouldn't do, I will however stand by them, whatever decision they make. I do sincerely hope you find the answer you are looking for. Good Luck.

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Why is there a big lecture outside the pro-choice door, yet not the same thing here on the pro-life door? :confused: Anyway, I am pro-life and believe that there are plenty of stores within a one mile radius of most people's home where some form of birth control can be found. I just do not see the need for an abortion simply because it's &quot;inconvenient&quot; at the time. I do agree that in cases of rape or incest, abortion may be a very reasonable option, but using it as a form of birth control is just so wrong on so many levels. Take responsibility before hand to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

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I do not know if I am pro-life or pro-choice anymore. I once considered myself "pro-choice" because I believe that everyone has the right to choose for herself. This is a basic human right.

I understand that pro-lifers want to protect the rights of those who cannot claim their rights for themselves. It does seem to me that once a life has begun, no one should be able to take it away. Creating a life is a great privilege and responsibility. If it happens because of a mistake, the living fetus should not be punished because of someone else's error, should it? Having to carry a baby through birth seems a small price to pay for an error when the alternative is the taking away of an entire life.

Here are a few things that happened that are making me lean back toward pro-life:

1. I read someone's post about being an abortion nurse and having to flush fully-formed fetuses down the toilet. Up to 14 a day. Their hearts had been beating until they cut them from the umbilical cord. She wondered how many fetuses are flushed down our septic system across the US on a daily basis.

2. Several people in my life have had abortions. Why? They did not use birth control! One of them was married and got pregnant but the pregnancy happened at an inconvenient time for them. She and her husband wanted more space between their children. Three others were with men they did not intend to marry. One is a teen but the others are women who should know better.

The irony is that two of them oppose abortion in theory, both political and religious. They vote against it all the time.

I am confused. I like the idea of being pro-choice, in theory, but the reality makes me pro-life. For the child's sake. It is a child even if it is in the womb. Another woman I know had a child born extremely premature. It was under one pound. Everyone expected the worst. But he is a full-grown, intelligent adult today who is attending a notable university. He is a former fetus who is grateful for the life he was given.

Pro-choice sounds great in theory but people do not use this freedom in a responsible way. They do not see abortion as the killing of a viable human being which it is.

Some people refuse to believe that the fetus is alive, that it is a human being, and that is their view. I wonder, however, if it just removes the guilt. The bottom line to me is: Everyone has the right to choose what to do with his or her own body. Even if there is a little life inside a womb, the responsibility of its protection and care is in the mother's hands. If the mother decides to terminate its life, it is her choice. It isn't our place to judge or intervene. If the child were viable on its own--outside the mother's body--then we are in the place to protect it. We can't protect the baby while inside the womb without infringing seriously upon the rights of the mother.





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Originally Posted By: Angela, Pregnancy Editor
The truth is though that medical and traumatic abortions (rape/incest) make up less than 2% of abortions. The rest is birth control or because of prenatal testing (which is horrible IMO because of the high rate of false positives. You are just as likely killing a perfectly healthy baby as one with Down's, etc).

For those of us who highly value our sons and daughters who were born with Down syndrome, comments like these are quite troubling. The 'termination' rate for pregnancies with a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome is so high, it's obvious that both 'pro-choice' and otherwise 'pro-life' women are making the same choice.

We do not find the most troubling thing about prenatal testing to be the high rate of false positives, but the lack of up-to-date, accurate information and counseling available to women who receive a prenatal diagnosis; the lack of support, inclusion and opportunities for our children after they are born; and community services when they reach adulthood.

Quote:
Funding services for the disabled could deter abortions

Most women consider abortion because they worry about the life they can give the child. We could deter abortions by addressing these fears.

Consider the couple who finds that their baby will be born with Down syndrome, the most common genetic anomaly. Most (more than 80 percent nationally) choose to terminate that pregnancy rather than raise a child with intellectual
disabilities. What can we do to dissuade this choice?


Quote:
What to do with Louie?
February 7th, 2009
Young adult has no state aid, no place to go
People with disabilities who are trying to find whatever help is available ... go on a waiting list to be evaluated. That waiting list currently has 16,000 names on it.

My son is a great asset to our community, as are all other individuals with Down syndrome I know, who were born to women who describe themselves as either pro-choice or pro-life, or both. We appreciate the support of pro-life voters and pro-choice voters who do respect his life.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted By: AutumnBeauty
Why is there a big lecture outside the pro-choice door, yet not the same thing here on the pro-life door? confused



Mainly because we have not had problem here in the Pro-Life area with people coming in to attack us.

The people in the Pro-Choice area get lambasted by people, called horrible names, etc.

We don't put up those little warning signs until there is a need to.


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Originally Posted By: SNC_Editor_Pam
Originally Posted By: Angela, Pregnancy Editor
The truth is though that medical and traumatic abortions (rape/incest) make up less than 2% of abortions. The rest is birth control or because of prenatal testing (which is horrible IMO because of the high rate of false positives. You are just as likely killing a perfectly healthy baby as one with Down's, etc).

For those of us who highly value our sons and daughters who were born with Down syndrome, comments like these are quite troubling. The 'termination' rate for pregnancies with a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome is so high, it's obvious that both 'pro-choice' and otherwise 'pro-life' women are making the same choice.


That did seem to be a rather off-the-cuff answer. Even when something is "wrong" with our babies, they can do amazing things. Sometimes their disabilities can even be a blessing because it leads them down a road they might not have otherwise traveled.

As parents we all want our kids to be born perfectly healthy and, well, perfect. But that doesn't always happen. But still these children can bring blessings into our lives - completely different blessings from anything that we had dreamed of when we were expecting a "normal" child.

OK- I'll go back to the real topic now....

I hope and pray that more research will go into finding out when brain function does begin. Because that seems to be the basic argument. Once we can prove that a baby can think, then that baby is a person, then there will be no choice but to say that it is murder to have an abortion.

I think scientists and doctors that are against abortion need to put their efforts into 2 major areas:
1. finding out this information
2. finding a safe way to move a fetus from a woman who doea not want a baby to one who does.

These 2 things could virtually end abortions other than those that are caused by medical emergencies.


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I am pro-choice and I am just going to throw my opinion in the mix here. Not being rude or attacking or anything.

Michelle, I love the idea of being able to move the fetus to a woman who would want the child. That would be an extremely wise investment to figure out how to do that safely. Great point.

I am pro-choice for the same reasons as anyone else who is pro-choice I think. I am a little more unsure about the later term procedures, but I wouldn't tell a woman what to do with her own body or life.

Just like someone else said, you can talk about birth control and keep your legs closed, or what ever until you are blue in the face. But I know plenty of women who got pregnant while on birth control. And I know, this isn't always the case and that some people just don't use birth control when they should. I understand that.

I am all for more education, easy to get and cheap birth control, counseling, and other smart, productive ways to reduce the need for abortions.

But I think with as much as it is part of our society, it would be very unwise to make it illegal. We need to keep it in a safe, sterile setting with people who know what they are doing. If this is not available, too many women will find other ways of doing it. Or we would find more babies abandoned in garbage cans or add to the numbers of unwanted children that need to be adopted, or more families living off of welfare, etc.

I think both sides of this issue have very valid points, and I always try to respect everyones opinion. And no matter how much we (general people I mean) argue or debate, I don't think there will ever be a resolution that makes everyone happy. There never is.


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I'd like to begin with I am both pro-choice and pro-baby. I tried to have a baby and had five miscarriages. I understand that it's difficult for people to see someone having an abortion when they so badly want a baby. I can't tell you how much I understand that. At the same time, the best way, in my opinion, to end abortion isn't to make it illegal. No, the best way to reduce or eliminate abortion is to begin to value motherhood in this country and to value women. We only value motherhood if the woman is married - to a man - and continues to stay married. If there is a divorce, we find out how little we value motherhood when stay at home moms are penalized in the divorce for doing so.

We say that women should place children for adoption but if the child isn't healthy and white, the chances of it getting adopted aren't all that great.

Perhaps our money and our lobbying efforts would best be spent by demanding that the government fund research on safe, effective contraception so that abortions aren't needed. .

We say women should take the responsibility for the children they create but we don't pay much more than lipservice to the idea that men should, too. At least as far as legislation goes. And, really, you should see how many children are in foster care because their parents abuse them. It's shocking.

Originally Posted By: Lori-Marriage



1. I read someone's post about being an abortion nurse and having to flush fully-formed fetuses down the toilet. Up to 14 a day. Their hearts had been beating until they cut them from the umbilical cord. She wondered how many fetuses are flushed down our septic system across the US on a daily basis.


I'd like to know who wrote the post you're referring to because "fully-formed fetuses" do not get aborted with any frequency.. It most cases, abortions can only be done until 12 weeks and at that stage, it is not a fully-formed fetus. Also, if a fetus is aborted, it cannot be flushed down the toilet, it has to be disposed of with medical waste. People write that stuff and I know beyond any doubt that they are lying. Flat out lying, or else working for the most unethical of doctors who should be reported immediately. They are guilty of breaking the law as well if they comply with such practices.

For the record, late term abortions are *rare.* All the laws for the so-called "partial birth abortion" that have been passed are really unnecessary. No doctor is going to perform an abortion that late unless it is medically necessary. You and I - or even other doctors - may feel that it *isn't* medically necessary but that doesn't negate the fact that the treating physician did and they are not common. "Partial-birth abortion" isn't even a medical term -it's a name created for sensationalist purposes.

I realize this post sounds far more strident than I intend it to be. I understand that this is a really difficult topic for people. Abortion , for the majority of women who have them, is not an easy decision. Reputable abortion providers, such as Planned Parenthood - in the clinics that actually do abortions and many do not - do not try to push women to have abortions. They give the woman all of her options and she decides for herself.

I don't think everyone has to agree with me. What a boring world it would be if everyone were just like me! I welcome the opportunity to talk with people about what they've learned, what their experiences are and sometimes I learn new things. I hope people learn new things from me, too.

Thanks for the welcoming environment in this area. I do not think pro-life people are stupid or religious freaks who just don't know any better or any of the other stereotypes. I think that pro-life people are people who have deeply held convictions that should be respected, just as mine should.




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Barbara, I was also wondering about the post that talked about flushing fetuses down the toilet, and forgot to add that question. It just doesn't sound correct. I don't think any medical facility would flush anything of that sort down the toilet.
I so agreed with your post and was glad to read your well thought opinions.
I agree about most pro-life people not being like the stereotypes put on them, and the same for pro-choice stereotypes as well. I guess a stereotype is a stereotype no matter who you are talking about.
We are all just people...people with different opinions.


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I was the one who posted that I read about flushing fetuses down the toilet. There are many news reports on the Internet, but here is one that lists several:

[url]http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2005/06/that-says-it-all-doesnt-it.html[url]


Abortionist Sidney Knight got in trouble when the Department of Public Works reported that fetuses were disposed of by grinding them and flushing them into the sanitary sewer system. (Department of Public Works letter 12-29-89)

Former abortion entrepeneur Eric Harrah was fined after a Delaware plumber told investigators that he had installed an "industrial guage" garbage disposal at his Brandywine Valley Women's Center. Employees told investigators that they routinely flushed 8 to 20 week fetuses down the disposal. (Wilmington News Journal 12-3-94, 12-4-93, 12-15-93, 8-22-93, 4-16-94; Philadelphia Inquirer 7-11-93; State News 1-4-95)

Abortionist Curtis Stover filed an affidavit stating that he vomited after observing abortionist James Park's method of disposing of aborted fetuses of 15 to 22 weeks gestation: he ground them up with a standard kitchen meat grinder and flushed the tissue down the sink. In a letter to the health department, Stover stated that Parks told him he had developed this method because the fetuses would "stop up" the toilet and because he did not want fetuses retrieved from the trash by pro-lifers. (Letter by Stover dated 6-15-92, affidavit by Stover dated 6-15-92; Up The Creek 9-11-92; excerpt from Parks' deposition 2-4-91 Arapahoe County District Court Case No. 90CV432)

---And in her own words:
This is where I read about the fetuses. From a former abortion nurse who told of late term fetuses being flushed:

[url]http://www.clinicquotes.com/kathy%20sparks.htm[url]

---

Look, I am a moderate when it comes to political views and I'm pretty open to hearing and considering both sides. Unfortunately that means I end up pissing off both sides! I only posted what I'd read.

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Lori, I know what you mean about annoying both sides! I think I do that too while trying to understand all points of view.
I understand that you only posted what you read and I read the link you provided.
I guess I should change my statement I made previously to no legitimate responsible medical facility would flush medical waste down the toilet.


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Oh, you didn't make me mad at all, Lori! I was just shocked - and I didn't mean to imply that *you* were lying, by the way. I guess there are unethical practices in many fields, so I shouldn't be surprised if they pop up in this one.


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Yotagrl - thanks. smile


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Ohhh. *phew*

smile


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I do know that legally an aborted fetus (and even miscarriages are termed aborted pregnancies medically) is legally supposed to be sent to pathology along with the placenta to make sure all parts are there.

Because if any portion of the fetus or placenta are left in the woman's body it can cause her to hemmorhage. The uterus continues to contract, and if there is nothing to contract on then those contractions are what helps stop the bleeding. But if the placenta is still there (which is highly vascular) - then the uterus contracting forces more and more blood through the plancental scraps and cause her to bleed to death.

The hospital I worked at as a surgical tech did not do elective abortions, but if a woman came in with a tubal pregnancy or bleeding from a partial miscarriage - then we would have to finish the delivery/abortion in order to save the mother's life. In these cases the fetus was already dead.

I had always been pro-life, but the first time I held a tiny little fetus about the size of the first digit of my thumb - still only particlly formed, but obviously a baby, as soon as the surgery was over (it was a ruptured tubal) I went into the nurses lounge and had hysterics.


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Originally Posted By: Spirituality&SFFMoviesEd
I do know that legally an aborted fetus (and even miscarriages are termed aborted pregnancies medically) is legally supposed to be sent to pathology along with the placenta to make sure all parts are there.

Because if any portion of the fetus or placenta are left in the woman's body it can cause her to hemmorhage. The uterus continues to contract, and if there is nothing to contract on then those contractions are what helps stop the bleeding. But if the placenta is still there (which is highly vascular) - then the uterus contracting forces more and more blood through the plancental scraps and cause her to bleed to death.


When I was young I heard many stories of pregnant women who had gone to what they called a 'back street doctor' and suffered terrible harm, even lost their lives, because they trusted someone to perform an abortion who was not bound by any sort of medical ethics or accountability.

Even when I was a teenager, there were very few hospitals that were available for legal procedures. Some women, especially the very young, would get ideas in their minds that they could cause a miscarriage by various means, and cause more damage than the back street quacks.

I heard most stories from nurses ~ I think infection was a real danger, because I would hear of the ravages of high fevers more than the loss of blood. I wonder if such things still happen as often as they did back then. It's always the people on the front lines in healthcare, nurses and PAs, who see the worst.

That is probably why most pro-life friends in the medical community are 'pro-choice' - and very supportive of programs that prevent pregnancy.

Sarah Palin's daughter, and Governor Palin herself, were quoted in the Fox interview as saying that abstinence is 'unrealistic' - and while I would not want to eliminate that as an option to promote with teens - there must be other education and social programs we can promote that would reduce or work to eliminate the high number of abortions that we have in the USA.

When I read that 90% of women with a prenatal diagnosis of Down syndrome choose to have an abortion, it's obvious to me that many otherwise pro-life women make the decision not to bring a child with Down syndrome into the world - especially since so many 'pro-choice' advocates have chosen to give birth to and raise their sons and daughters who have Down syndrome.

I can't help but think that we can do more to support women who are pregnant, and to support mothers raising young children, so they do not make that choice for 'practical' reasons. It's heartbreaking to think any woman would have a reason to make that choice, but they certainly do, and probably more so with an economy in collapse.

Pam W
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I am pro life with the exceptions of birth defects that are not survivable, like Tay Sachs Disease and anancephaly, and pregnancy that risks ending the life of the mother. My personal experience with &quot;pro choice&quot; obstetricians near Boston is they are only pro choice if the choice you want to make is theirs: to kill a &quot;defective&quot; baby. BTW I have worked in the medical laboratory business for almost 20 years. A blood test to screen how likely I was to have a Downs or neural tube defect baby is particularly unreliable, especially if certain data are incorrectly entered. I knew a woman who went through a particularly painful amniocentesis because of the blood test results: only to have a healthy baby. These &quot;doctors&quot; tried everything short of sitting on me to do this testing, which I refused, and I have a perfectly healthy four year old girl. It is the pro death, pro eugenics attitude of most people in Massachusetts that is part of the reason I don't want to have another baby here.

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