BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids My wife wants kids, but I'm having 2nd thoughts

This is getting to be almost too much to wrap my brain around.

As with many complex situations, sometimes it helps to write down all of the factors involved, in both pro and con lists.

I would suggest that CH start a list of all of the positive things (even the little ones) that he enjoys with his wife now, pre-child.

My very brief version of that list would include:

She loves me unconditionally.
She lets me sleep in on the weekends, even though she wakes up earlier than I do.
The house is nice and quiet, so we can talk without interruption.
She always makes time for me.
She cooks food for me, because she wants to.
(things like that)

The next list would be the things that bother him about his wife/relationship.

I can't think of anything for me on this list.

Possibilities for CH are:
I really don't want a child -- her insistence on this keeps us from talking openly.
I seem to be spending a lot more time keeping her happy now -- why is that?
I have a gut feeling that she isn't telling me everything about why she wants this child...
...


Now, start another list: If my wife and I were to have a child, what do I perceive the positives to be?

For my list:

NOTHING.

For CH's list:

I have my own mini-me? Maybe?


Next list: What things will I NOT like between the relationship between my wife and I if a child were to be here?

No time with her (all time for baby)
No sleep time
No intimate relations/lack of desire
Post partum depression
A constant financial drain on resources
Constant irritation
Non-stop responsibility
Will "it's different if it is your own" really be true? What are the odds? I don't know!


Now the hard part:

CH's wife must do the same thing, answer the same questions. Why? Because the two of them are together in this relationship.

Hard to do? Yes. No one said this was going to be easy. The marriage is at stake here.

Before this issue can be dealt with (either between CF and his wife, or in counseling (couple or one on one)), these issues need to be brought up.

Re: being shy and not outgoing: You say that 90% of people out there are more outgoing than you are.

Me? 98%.

Yes, I may seem outgoing on here, but I've always been more open online, with a computer doing some of the 'buffering' between me and other people. In real life, I am not very outgoing.

My parents considered sending me to counseling when I was in high school because I was so withdrawn into myself. So yes, *I KNOW* what it is like to be afraid to say hello to a girl or woman. How did I get over it? I started chatting with women on AOL way back when. It got my confidence up so I could talk to them voice on the phone. Even many years later, I am still not very sociable, unless I feel comfortable at a good personal level with others. Most of the time, I am not. But within my circle of trust, I am a lot more open now than when I first met my wife.

I hope you won't have to split up, but if that is best for you and your wife, there is hope. I don't like to see people hurt in the ways that hurt would be divided in such a breakup (I've been in a breakup before, and it hurt like hell) but in the long run, it is a possibility.

The other side of the coin is that things gets a WHOLE lot more complicated if you have to split up and there is a CHILD involved. Child support, parental visitation rights -- all for an innocent person that did not ask for such trouble.

Wow, that Catherine woman needs to come down from the mount, take a chill pill and consider therapy herself.

I agree with Ingilbert -- the best years of my life were definitely not in my 20s, and hopefully the same hold's true for CH's wife. If those were your best years, you didn't scream loud enough for a rescue from the underground dungeon in which you were trapped. And I'm a helluva lot better looking now, and in the best physical shape I've ever been. What did you do, let yourself go?

Secondly, if anyone's life would be over and cause him to live the rest of his life in "devastation," that individual should never have gotten married in the first place. If you can't be happy and fulfilled on your own, you have no business near an altar. Yes, divorce sucks, but it should never cause such prolonged depression as you describe. Life goes on, for God's sake.

Finally, as for CH -- I wouldn't want to be the kid you didn't want. Would you, Catherine? Why don't you chew on this one: There are no guarantees in marriage. What if CH gives up the sperm to appease the wife, and 10 years later, one or both of them still aren't happy for whatever reason and decide to split? Who suffers again -- the KID -- double whammy.

Obviously, there is no easy solution. I don't have the answers, but let's not jump up on the pulpit with fire and brimstone just because CH is carefully considering all options, of which one is divorce (the only way I agree with Catherine is that CH should have been just as careful, if not more, before slipping her the ring to begin with).

I haven't responded CH only because I've been too busy the last few days. But your situation has been on my mind and I'm sure I'll eventually get time to participate a little more.

But oh my GOSH, Catherine's contributions are really annoying to me. Whatever. My life continues to improve, and I'm not of her mindset at all. Thanks for the victim perspective.

I don't think she's read the responses very carefully, because she's missed a lot of valid points. The main one is WHAT IF ONE OF THEM IS INFERTILE????

Then what? If it's a medical issue that turns up on his end, will he still have stolen "the best years of her life" and doomed her to devastation for eternity?

From what I hear, there is a whole lot of sacrifice with this motherhood thing, and if she can't handle something like accepting a hitch in her life plans, then perhaps she's not up for the amount of giving that's needed for the job.

A lot of people have signifcant adversity to deal with in their lives, and if someone really can't pull themselves out of self-pity that seriously, then I would agree therapy is a great idea. Also, I believe the person should refocus on helping someone out that has it worse than them. Maybe that would make them realize how good they really have it.

Sometimes it simply does not happen that we get everything exactly how we want.

I've struggled with this issue myself, because that's what happened in my situation, so this is a big one for me.

Is everyone woman "entitled" to give birth and raise a child because biologically she can? Is she "owed" a child by her husband because it's something she wants, even if he doesn't? Is that situation really best for a child? Good lord...women really need to think about someone other than themselves sometimes!

And is someone allowed to change their mind, especially if they've voiced doubts about an issue before?

CH, I feel for your wife, because I have been through phases where I felt frustrated because even if I want a kid, I can't have one that easily. I don't have any easy answers for you, but I think it's wrong for someone to condemn you for wanting to talk about your concerns.

You sound like a good person who is trying to make the best decision not only for yourself, but for a potential child you would have to raise.

Here are a couple responses to recent posts:

Catherine42:
Your posting is chocked full of accusations worded in an attack-mode tone, and therefore both shocked and irritated me. Nevertheless, you make some valid points which deserve response:
1) I agree with you that marriage is sacred and deserves a chance at endurance during both good times and bad, 'till death do us part. However, at some point, if the bad times are so bad that it makes one of the parties feel dead, and parting would bring that person back to life, then is that not worth considering? I am not at the point of the "living-dead" now, but if kids enter the picture, I suspect I will often feel dead. If kids were currently in the picture, I would not even consider breaking up, since that hasn't happened yet, there is an opportunity now to change 2 (or 4) lives for the better--that opportunity should be at least considered and discussed.
I agree with you that parting with my wife would be cruel and selfish. Yet, ignoring my own feelings and future would be likewise cruel--cruel to me, and as others have said here, cruel to the children.
2) You painted a picture of devastation regarding my wife's reaction to splitting up. As I stated in earlier posts, I am very concerned about her reaction and I place high importance on it. I agree with you that she would be hurt (Although she wouldn't "wither away" as if our marriage was her only reason for living). Perhaps the outcome you describe is accurate for some women, but in our situation there are only some similarities. Of course, I cannot fully predict what her reaction would be, so I will consider the extreme outcome you describe as a distinct possibility, albeit not highly probable.
3) You say that I "should have thought about that before you promised your life to her." In earlier posts, I have emphasized how my views have changed over time. However, please let me attempt to further clarify this. When I was in my late teens / early twenties, I definitely wanted to be a father. I adored children and thoroughly enjoyed playing with them as well as teaching them. Further into my twenties when we began dating, I had more information about parenthood--I had learned more about the responsibilities which come with the joys. Around that time and when we become engaged, I was "on the fence," meaning that I was neither crazy about having kids nor opposed to them (I was 50:50, or neutral on the issue). More years passed since then, and with more experience, I now have even more information. My views on parenthood now tell me that the negatives outweight the positives. DOn't get me wrong: I still adore children, admire their energy and happiness, enjoy playing with them and enjoy teaching them. Thus, it is not on a whim that my views have changed, but rather a result of years of experience and insights gathered from others.
Given what I just said in the previous paragraph, this is not as black and white of a mind change as the one you portrayed in your email.
Summary: Thank you for expressing your opinions of disagreement. I would be grateful to engage future discussion with you to hear your point of view. However, I would appreciate it if you would attempt to show some understanding for my point of view rather than striking down all of my thoughts as evil and contemptuous.

Ingilbert:
You wrote: "You seem to have already made a decision for yourself and seem to be playing a martyr, so you don't need our advice. ..."
"I think that you decided long ago that you were going to have a child with her, as you don't want to listen to any of the advice anyone is giving you. You can only say why that advice won't work. I think you somehow want us to validate your decision, and since we aren't, you keep telling us why it's your only choice. Well, you have my blessing. Give your wife the child she wants. Since you've backed yourself into a corner, it really is your only option."
Please know that I cherish and want all advice that I am receiving on this board. Even if my thoughts may be leaning in one direction now, I am open to changing the direction of that lean. I am hungry for others' opinions so I can consider them all. This is not a 5-day decision process for me, so I am not going to march forward with a course of action in that time frame. I need more time than that to digest all of these ideas. Thank you for your patience and continued support.
Furthermore, I am willing to go to counseling with my wife [in addition to the counseling I already do solo] to discuss these issues. However, I question the wisdom of discussing divorce with her now as an option; that discussion in and of itself would likely become a self-fulfilling prophecy (simply talking about divorce as an "option" could very likely lead to divorce, unless it is something which I surely want, that's a dangerous road to go down). Thus, I'm just not sure what is left to discuss: she and I have already discussed in great detail her desire for children and the motivations for that desire; we have also discussed my reservations. I agree that perhaps holding these discussions in the presence of a professional therapist could provide additional insights and help keep the discussion healthy.

All Friends in this thread:
One of the topics that several of you have mentioned or asked me about is my wife's motivations for children. I suspect it is a combination of things: biological instinct, social conditioning (especially from her family), and simply that she enjoys children. When I have asked her about her motivations (on more than 1 occasion), her response makes no mention of the 1st 2 items in that list but rather only the 3rd: she enjoys being with them. She has many years of experience with children of differing ages, and I fully believe that her enjoyment of children is the primary motivation. Although I stated in an prior post that she "adores" the 1st 10 years the most, and especially the 1st 5 years, I believe that she would enjoy parenting during the teenage years as well, even though she recognizes that the challenges increase during those years.
In sum, although many women want children for the wrong reasons, I believe that she wants them for the right reasons: she cares for children, enjoys being with them, and is committed to putting forth the effort during both fun and not-so-fun times to raise them as happy, healthy, members of our society. She would make a fantastic mother.
Although I didn't mention individual names of posters who asked me about my wife's motivations, hopefully this addresses your questions. Thank you for asking!

Sincerely and gratefully,
Confused_Husband

Oh I'm 34 and I obviously my life is better now and I'm a better person, so don't be "sorry for me" - my career blossomed when I was 31 and I'm furthering it now in a Masters program... however, welcome to reality: men are attracted to physical beauty first - and it fades with time. Yes, I consider myself still attractive, but I'm not naive enough to think that my breasts are still in their prime. Her husband made commitments to be the father of her children so he got her breasts when they pointed to the heavens.
As for the age of marriage being "too young to know better" - well, in general I feel like being married too young is a bad idea, (I met my husband at 26, married him at 30), but I have no sympathy for people who made that decision in their early twenties because you know what? You were an adult, you knew the rules (FOREVER), and you made the promise... and CH knew her additional stipulation (a common one for wives) was to reproduce.
I love that you mock my words "wither with devastation" - clearly you have never truly had your heart broken by the love of your life. It is a deep blow. You are simply not the same person afterward. You do not have the same trust, the same spirit. A part of you never recovers.
I never said it was her one chance at having a family. My husband and I are a family. I said this was her one chance at the family she was PROMISED.

At any rate it's clear that CH (due to reading the rest of his rationale, ala "I could leave my wife to have more time for my own interests..." is a rather Asperger-esque (male ego) man who is innately selfish and uses terms like "antisocial" to explain his preferring his own nursing of himself while he disregards other's emotions: no, not the best Daddy. However, although I don't want kids because I prefer to make my art and that sort, I have many friends with children, and if there's one thing I've watched occur, it's that Daddy has to stop thinking of himself as an island... and I can assure CH that all the therapy in the world won't be as effective as the eyes of his child.

Dear CH,

First let me say I really admire how you and your wife seem to be working to be honest and figure out the best course of action.

From my point of view, I think it would be most helpful for you to decide waht would be best for YOU. If you are honest with yourself, and figure out what you are willing and are not willing to accept.

Then you can say to your wife "this is where I am coming from." It will then be up to her to decide.

ie. I just do not want kids. I cannot envision a happy life with them as part of the picture.

her choice - after much deliberation - may be "I can accept this, despite the fact that it is disappointing." or it may be "kids are so important to me, such an important dream and desire, that this is goodbye."

Or, you may say "I don't really want kids, but I am willing to have them. These are the greatest areas of concern, and what I am and am not willing to do." (to the best you can, be sure that you are making a commitment you can keep). She may then say "That is not good enough, I want to have children with someone who really wants them - goodbye" or she may accept your position. (I know a colleague who had this situation w/ her husband - she basically does everything as if she were a single mom - he works night shift - but they are together AND have children. He is involved in pretty much just the kodak moments, and of course the financial aspect). NOTE: I am not saying this is a great solution. As many have mentioned here, how woudl the kid feel under those conditions? On the other hand, I know friends who were not wanted as children, and who do carry that burden, but have nevertheless found great happiness in life and are wonderful members of society.

If you are considering this option, I would really recommend lookiung at Duane's posts with things to consider - ie. if circumstances are not ideal, or if a divorce ensued down the line, what woudl you do?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, decide for YOU what you can and can't tolerate. Then let your wife know. It will thus be up to HER to decide what she can and cannot live with.

I can't help but think that the most loving thing you can both do at this point is to be as honest as possible. If that means a divorce, and letting each other be free to follow different dreams, perhaps you need to lvoe each other enough to do that.

Just FYI: I believe it's important to know the source of feedback, in case of biases, so about me ... I have always wanted kids (though I knew I didn't want them until later life) DH also wanted kids. My DH and I went through some very difficult experiences in our marriage, including infertility. I strongly believe in the sanctity of marriage so I'm not saying the divorce word lightly. I also don't believe that a marriage where one person is "dead" is truly a marriage. And in my opinion, a marriage where one person would crumble and die without the other is not truly a marriage, but a dependency relationship. I think of the quote from Kahlil Gibran's "on marriage" - "the pillars of teh temple stand not together" and "the birch grows not in teh oak's shadow."

Be honest with yourself and with your wife. Teh consequences may not be what you imagine but I think it's better than building your lives on a lie.

I wish you and your wife all the best in this terribly difficult situation.

Andie

Why can people not change their minds over time? What if it was HIM that wanted the child, and not her?

I still don't like your idea that marriage is some kind of bargain.

I'm sorry that you had bad experiences, but frankly, your posts seem quite bitter to me. I feel like maybe you're taking your frustration out on the wrong person here.

Andy and Duane_Va,

Andy:
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. Your recommendations make sense to me. It makes sense to ensure I am being completely honest with myself, and that we are being completely honest with each other. I can express what I want, don't want, am willing / not willing to do, and then ensure that I know how she feels about all of that. From there, we can make a solid decision together.

Duane_Va:
I really like your suggestion of the pro's/con's list--generated both by me and by my wife. That sounds like a great way to objectively put all of our views out in front of us where we can both see them.

Thank you both!
Confused_Husband

Catherine-
It must be nice to sit on such a high moral pedestal and condemn the rest of us with your sanctimonious and self-righteous attitude. Haven't you ever changed your mind about an important decision before? Oh no, wait, you're perfect, so I suppose you haven't. Let's remember we are all on this board to support each other and to state our opinions with respect and dignity for others. Frankly, I feel that you are too angry and bitter a person to be helpful to anyone.

CH- I wish you all the best and agree that you should be as open and honest with your wife as possible. Counseling may help, as well as getting your thoughts and feelings out on this board. Good luck!

Um...not obvious...