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My suggestion.. and you are going to hate this one..lol.. is to put women completely in charge of the world. I think that you would find that things would change drastically and that women would seek and find alternatives to killing one another.


I dont know about that one. a Womens prison is twice as vilate then that of a mans prison or so they say...

I only bring this up because the only diff. I see in poltcians and prisoners is the side of the bars they live on!!!

Hello All,

I have been following this topic through, and especially what Percy has been saying. I have to come into the discussion and clarify a few things here.

For starters, I have to say that Percy has not said anything that is not 100% correct, and all the internet links he gave you are also correct and true. I am the one he gained most of his information from. I have been a keen researcher of WW2 history for over 50 years, and am generally regarded as somewhat of an authority on this subject. I also possess first-hand knowledge through my own experiences, and second-hand knowledge through relatives and associates who related their experiences to me.

I gained much of my information when I was an Army Nurse (Royal Australian Army Nursing Corps) for four years - 12 years after the peace was signed, in a Military General Hospital, and came into contact with at least 200 Australian survivors of the fighting in New Guinea, and the Japanese atrocities in POW camps. I saw with my own eyes what was done to them as well as hearing their memories of their experiences.

When you are able to 'tune in' to what people feel, the reality becomes so much greater, and I feel the greatest sympathy for those who were the VICTIMS of those who STARTED the whole horrid thing. I would extend the same compassion to the innocents of Japan, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for those who brought this upon us, and upon their OWN PEOPLE. The fact that they encouraged their own civilians to kill themselves (Saipan and Okinawa - and that's a fact) and had no concern for their safety makes the whole burden of guilt so much worse, in my eyes. The Japanese war lords were as much to blame for the aftermath of the A Bomb as those who dropped it.

I know, pain is pain is pain - but there are degrees. One cannot compare the pain of a person who had their legs chopped off with someone who had a bullet wound. The soldier on the battlefield has experienced a very different kind of pain to the one who was on a death march, or in a torture camp. All are terrible, but you get into deep trouble if you try to compare them or tar them all with the same brush. It doesn't work that way.

Even recently (hopefully this has been stopped now) Japan was teaching school children that 'they' won the war! Japanese exchange students here in Australia confirmed this, and many did not even know that Australia had been a victim of WW2 Japan!

The Chinese and Koreans recently made a huge complaint (and protest) about the lies being taught to Japanese children concerning the atrocities in China and elsewhere. The Japanese government has never 'officially' apologized to Australia for its atrocities against our men and women. None of the old commanders who were tried and convicted of war crimes did either. But one sweet Japanese lady toured the world herself, apologizing for the atrocities committed by her country in WW2. What a courageous, wonderful soul! What remarkable honesty!

Many have apologized to Japan for the Atomic Bomb.

So I can understand why Percy said that the Japanese don't tell the truth. He was correct. Their officials don't! And sadly there are very few of our own ex-servicemen now who are still alive and well enough to tell the true story. They grow less with each passing year - most being in their 80's now. Younger generations never get to hear it - except the Japanese watered-down and reinvented version and the 'revised edition' circulated by some other sources with the purpose of making it appear that the Allies were just as bad. I can assure you, they were not, - not by a long shot!

Unfortunately in wars the innocent suffer along with the guilty.

It saddens me greatly that my 'Gross' family was almost wiped out in Germany during WW2, and not by allied bombs, but by the Nazi regime, because they (my relatives) would not bow down to them; join their armed forces, or have any part in what they saw as an evil in society. And they weren't the only ones. Many fine German people ended up the same way.

I'm sure there were many Japanese who also hated what was happening, but were powerless to stop it. (Their punishment for daring to differ was just as deadly) We don't hear about them because even the Japan of today regards those good people as traitors and it shames them to acknowledge that they existed.

Some of the POW's I nursed told me of kind guards they encountered. I cried when I heard how their officers beat them to death for giving a prisoner a sip of water.

We only hear their tragic stories from the ex-POWs themselves. It is true that the gentle ones were very much in the minority, but they DID exist. I salute them, and when I attend our ANZAC Day services, I remember them too, along with all our own lads and girls who never came home.

I also remember the crew of one German submarine which was sunk while it was on the surface, trying to rescue Allied sailors from the merchant ship it had just torpedoed. It seems there is no room for compassion in war. Show compassion to the enemy, and you die yourself!

There are so many stories like this one. War is evil, but what do we do when our own lives are under threat?

War brings out the best, and the worst in humanity I have learned. But what a shame that we have to learn our lessons in such a way.

I am not a pacifist. I state that quite clearly. I believe in the right to defend one's family and country. I believe in helping another nation who becomes a victim of an aggressor. I do not believe in peace at any price (the price that comes from not taking action). I don't believe that evil goes away by ignoring it. Sometimes, we have to fight to hold on to what is sacred to us. And there are times when negotiations fail. In such cases, I am then in favour of action, but only after there has been an act of aggression from the other side. In WW2, this was such a situation.

That is my belief and my experience in life. I respect the views of others, and in fact, applaud those who, like my father in WW1, choose to serve as non combatants. He served as a stretcher bearer with the Field Ambulance. Many people found other ways to serve which did not require them to carry a gun.

May there one day be true peace in our world, but sadly I can't see it happening in my lifetime. I hope you young ones will see it in yours.

Patience.

Dropping the atomic bomb on Japan was an act of mercy.

So Percy.. You feel that Japan deserved to get hit by an atom bomb because of their cruelty to their own people and to the countries they were trying to invade. Correct?

Well, maybe you should look to your own history. It seems to me that a country who needlessly slaughters their fellow countrymen, and then on top of that steps in and separates children from their parents, all for no good reason... hasn't got a whole lot of room to talk about the atocities that were committed by others.

I give you.. The Aborigine people of Australia...

Prior to colonization which began in January 1788, the Australian Aborigines lived a lifestyle based on their Dreamtime beliefs. They had survived as a race for thousands of years and their lifestyle and cultural practices had remained virtually unchanged during that time. We refer to this as the traditional period.

However colonization imposed changes on the Aborigines as people who lived in areas that were being settled by the Europeans, were forced off their land as towns and farms were developed. We identify the period in which the changes took place, as the historical period. The sort of changes that took place usually commenced with explorers entering the area of a tribe and being challenged by the people for trespassing on their land. The Europeans often (usually) responded by shooting at the people. Many were killed. When settlers followed the explorers and began felling trees and building farms, they restricted the ability of the Aborigines to move freely around their land. They also destroyed their traditional food sources.

These changes took place throughout the continent at different times. They began in the Sydney and Parramatta districts from 1788; in the Cowpastures (Campbelltown / Camden)area from the early 1800s and in the Illawarra district from 1815. Gradually - but with increasing speed colonization spread throughout the entire continent.

The settlers had arrived in this country to build a new life for themselves and their families and had 'no time for the Dreamtime'. In other words most were not interested in the affects colonization was having on the Aborigines. In fact they were often considered to be a pest and a nuisance. Many were killed by diseases such as influenza. Thousands were massacred to make way for farms and settlements.

On the other hand some Aboriginal people adapted to the Whitman's laws and the new lifestyle. In doing so, many were reduced to pauperism and were beggars. Others broke the traditional tribal lore's by accepting Brass Plates and by moving into the traditional lands of other tribes. In many cases they had no option in doing this as they were facing starvation or the gun.

Overall, the Australian Aborigines went through stages of being conquered through an 'invasion' and taking of their lands. Many adapted to the new lifestyle (when many became reliant on alcohol, tobacco and handouts of food and clothing. However the settlers were often contemptuous of the Aborigines and separated them from their society and the people became the fringe dwellers of society. Others were removed from their families and placed into institutions. From the late 1830s the remnants of the tribes in the settled areas were moved onto Reserves and Missions where they were 'managed' by Whitemen and were forbidden from teaching their children their language and customs.

During the 1900s separation was an official government policy which lasted for many decades and today, many Aboriginal people do not know their origins. In other words, which tribe they are descended from or the names of their parents and or grandparents. They are a lost generation.

I admit that perhaps the situation is a bit better for them today.. but from what I understand there are still many of your native people who are living in slums.

Now, the USA isn't any better with what we did to the Native Americans here.. Pine Ridge Reservation home of the Lakota in South Dakota is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the States.

The law of Karma is that what goes around comes around.. if we insist on bullying our own people, we really can't complain when someone tries to bully us in return.

Dropping the atom bomb on Japan saved millions of lives. It was cheaper in blood than an invasion.

When ever anyone oppresses anyone else.. for any reason.. it is wrong. But, look at the history of our world.. even the Christian Bible. Someone has always been at war with someone else.. starting with our neanderthal ancestors. And, if you go the other route.. Look at Cain and Abel.

The bible abounds with wars. The Koran abounds with wars. There have been wars at every junction of our history.. In fact, there most likely has never been a time in the history of humankind that someone hasn't been killing someone else.. Our weapons just kept getting bigger and capable of more destruction.

God kills, Allah kills.. and the entire pantheon of Gods and Goddesses have always had among them the not so nice destructive variety.

Humankind thinks that we are the superior species. We think that we can do whatever we please, step on whoever we want, and create whatever havoc we wish to create.. without paying one iota of attention to the long term effects on this planet and ALL of it's life.

Not only did those bombs wipe out humans, they wiped out plant and animal life as well.. But as humans we do not place as much value on plants and animals as we do upon ourselves. They left a scar upon the face of the earth that most likely will never heal.

Perhaps in a few thousand more years humankind (if we don't become extinct due to our own stupidity) exists, we will have evolved enough on a spiritual level to understand the difference between "right and wrong."

Not correct Linda. Percy said that he believed that the bomb would save lives. NOT that the Japanese 'deserved' it. Do not twist people's words please. And don't quote out of context.

If you have further comments, I suggest you direct them to me, not Percy. My post was to clarify, and I see you have not bothered to respond to that.

GO BACK AND READ MY POST PLEASE?



I am very disappointed in you, Linda. So you are now going to 'muck rake' from the past and trash my country? What does that have to do with WW2?

I would think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Your own country's history regarding Native Americans and slavery and racial hated against African Americans is something which I have not had the audacity to point out to you! If your history is blameless, then you might have the right to point an accusing finger at mine.

You have turned this topic into a personal attack on my country and I don't take that lightly. Your response here is not exactly what I would expect from someone who has the ID of 'spirituality'. It seems your spirituality may just be in the name. What else am I to think at such an outburt of venom against the country which is my home? This is what we would call 'dirty cricket' and it is not admirable.



Well, I didn't need the history lesson Linda.

I am not even going to lower myself to comment on your 'gutter fighting' tactics.. I know what the history was. I know what is now being done to give back lands to the Aborigines. I know why many of them live in slums. YOU DON'T!

How did this discussion suddenly develop into a violent attack on my country? I have not attacked yours. I am a first generation Australian and I, and my ancestors, are no more responsible for what happened to the Aborigines than you (I presume) are for what happened to the Native Americans or African Americans in your country.

It seems to me that when you cannot win an argument honestly about what happened in WW2 you then resort to dirty tactics and dig up all the dirt you can find about that other person, or their country. You deliberately went looking for that didn't you?
It is obvious that you copied it off the net so you could throw it up in my face.

This is very small of you Linda, and it shows me just how spiritual and fair you really are.

Patience.

I cant be sure but I think Linda was talking to Freak but sence I cant read the post Im not sure....

I think if she was talking to Percy she would have Quoted what she was refering to. But I could be wrong!!!

Wrong or not, it's been said, and the references to Australia make it clear that she was referring to an Australian.

Patience.

Patience..

I was not attacking anyone. I was merely pointing out that none of our countries are blameless when it comes to oppressing others. And if you reread my post you will see that I did include the US and their treatment of the Native Americans. And, I have done extensive reading on the history and the modern day dilemmas facing the Aborigines. They are living in the slums for the same reason many of the Native Americans here are. That is how we gave them back their "freedom."

My point is how does the treatment our countries inflicted on the Aborigines or the Native Americans differ at all from the treatment that the Japanese or Germans inflicted upon their victims? The difference is neither the Aborigines or the Native Americans had Allied forces backing them up.

Oppression is oppression no matter what scale it is on. And, if you reread both your posts and Percy's posts, you don't exactly paint a very nice picture of the Japanese people in general.

So, I guess it is fine for you to "trash" them, but not alright when it is pointed out that the country you live in was just as capable of oppression as any other country out there, including Japan.

My whole point from the very beginning of this whole argument is that oppression is wrong, killing is wrong, and that war should be avoided at all costs.. And I still stand firmly behind those principles.

I am a pacifist and therefore we will never see eye to eye. I will not attack your spirituality or your faith.. that is not my place. You are who you are and you certainly have a right to your opinions.. and I have the right to disagree.. such is life. Having a dispute about countries or wars or religion is fine.. but I refuse to stoop to a personal level of name calling.. that WOULD be unspiritual of me. I have not attacked you personally nor would I.

You and Percy on the other hand have made this a personal vendetta so it would seem.. not a problem here.. I am not a young person as you have implied.. in fact I am a Grandmother, so I can certainly take any personnal affronts you may throw my way.. water off the duck so to speak.