BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Atheist Set it straight for atheism

ParrotHead, the questions that I was asking were not whether we should help something or not but I was asking the question from an epistemological point of view. I would definitely help a staving child and wounded animal because based on my worldview, I have to do that otherwise I am not even following my own worldview. The bible says help the widows and the needy. But what is the epistemological answer to that problem from the atheistic point of view? It depends on your feelings and or who you are. Why is helping a starving child a good thing from an atheistic point of view? The question is not if it is good but the question is Why it is good. And I believe that my God is watching me all the time. What is the standard for goodness in atheism in the first place? See when one says that there is such thing as bad (such as as not helping a starving child) then one presupposes that there is such thing as good and once one presupposes there is such thing as good then one also presupposes that there is such thing as a moral law that we use in order to differentiate between good and bad and once one presupposes that there is such thing as a moral law then one must also presuppose that there is a moral lawgiver since a moral law can't exist without a moral lawgiver. Therefore in order just to disprove God, once must presuppose the existence of God to try to disprove him.
And yes my post may have been full of boasting and pride and I do boast in the Lord because He is our Moral Lawgiver and He is the source of our goodness.

We've been down the "moral lawgiver" route before. I disagree with your argument and have made numerous points before on this subject.

I really want to go look up directions in the Bible on how to wipe one's arse because it seems nothing can be done, seen, felt, experienced, or conceived of without it. Animals somehow manage to have empathy and sympathy for one another without a book giving them directions. It amazes me that humans supposedly cannot.

I am wondering if Parrothead was talking about my post and the works that my church has done. I wasn't boasting about the works, I was merely clearing up a couple of issues that referred to my pastor as having a fat wallet and no better than a slimy shyster.

I was pointing out that it wasn't true and that our church does a lot with the money that it collects from the congregation.
I know works don't get you into Heaven.

In fact in Ephesians 2:8-9, it is written: For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone boast.

I was merely defending my pastor and my church and now I realize that it wasn't necessary because, as is the case in point, someone will find fault with it. I should have realized that he didn't need defending and that was an oversight on my part.

It's funny how the non Christians here are quick to start throwing around Bible verses. Oh well, at least it shows they are attempting to read it.

Jesus loves you, won't you love Him back?

ParrotHead, That is not an answer to my argument. You are just assuming that it is wrong. And based on atheism what is the difference between animals and humans in the first place? They are all the same. They all evolved from rocks and I don't see how anyone could get their morality from rocks. Once you stroke down the Moral Lawgiver then I don't see why or you could call anything good or bad.

Rocks????? You mean we didn't evolve from ocean sludge or from sort of kangarockasaurus?????

"It's funny how the non Christians here are quick to start throwing around Bible verses. Oh well, at least it shows they are attempting to read it."

As a child I won many prizes at church and bible camp from memorizing verses. I have read the book cover to cover. You like to believe those you preach to haven't got a clue what they're talking about when in fact most are probably more well versed than you in the subject. If I chose not to think it would be a very easy thing to walk around delusional holding the bible in front of me. Until you can uncouple your teaching/training/indoctrination and look at it rationally there's really no point in trying to discuss anything.

I feel everyone has the right to their opinion or view, since most of us is trying discuss this topic according to our knowledge ans experiences.

By making the above statement - are you indicating we are all wrong or ignorance.

and only you know what is right or wrong.

When the answer to everything is "God made it so" or the "Bible says so" there's no further room for discussion or thought. I have tried on many occasions to have rational discussions and after awhile you get tired of hearing the same thing over and over. If we could get past the same two answers (no matter how pretty they are worded) we might actually find a new perspective separately or together. That is the point of discussion, is it not? Neither answer sways me to their point of view so if they can't have a discussion without that fallback position then it is pointless.

And this isn't the Defend the Bible and Christianity forum despite what it's become. I've tried exploring discussions on various topics from different perspectives such as creationism (which doesn't always involve the Christian god) and evolution. I've started exploring the biology and psychology. I would like to hear different perspectives from people who have differing ideas that reach beyond the Bible and Christianity.

ParrotHead, When did I answer any of your questions with a "the Bible says so" type of answer because I don't remember when I have done that but anyway you said you wanted to discuss things rationally but see the problem that I have with that is your wouldview doesn't even have any bases for rationality in the first place. How do you justify what is rational or not from your worldview? I do respect atheist and I do think there are good atheists and bad atheists as there are good christians and bad ones but the problem is that an atheism doesn't give us the rational answer to the problem of morality or other experience that human beings have. Atheism fails to have a foundation for rationality and when we discuss rational things, we have to take a leap of blind faith into the non-rational realm to answer the basic questions of rationality. So atheism fails at an epistemological level.