BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Buddhism Discussion on A supreme Being, Higher Power, God

There is currently a thread title 'Did Adam and Eve's Children have Sex with each other?' which has strayed into other territories, and is now enmeshed in discussing the existence of God, Satan, and the power of Free Will, Choice and consequence.

I have posted quite a few comments in the thread, and have made efforts to respect the beliefs of the Christian posters who find thmselves on 'Home ground' and who quite rightly and understandably are defensive of their faith and beliefs.
It has reached a point where I think it both inadvisable and inappropriate for me to add further comment, as this would challenge and question them and possibly give rise to the opinion that I am acting in an hostile and derisory manner.
I do not want them to either have to justify themselves on what is a Christian forum, and nor do I wish them to formulate an opinion of me which may, in my eyes be unfair and unjustified.

I enjoy theological discussion and a healthy exchange of views and opinions in the form of courteous and respectful debate is one I relish.
But if I may say so, I am British. I am however, also half-Italian, and I live in France. And at 49, I have been around the block a few times. I have had the great fortune of engaging with many people from all walks of life, and from many backgrounds and countries.
I have never encountered any Christians quite as single-mindedly devoted to their faith, as Americans. There are few devout Americans who are willing to enter into a dialogue that might bring the veracity of the Bible, or their faith, into question, under the microscope. And I have yet to encounter any other Christians - even Italian Roman Catholics - who take the Bible quite as literally, or who unquestioningly accept it as the Word of God in its entirety, as these devoted people.
However: Given that this is a Buddhist forum, and that I personally do not ascribe to a Divine Being, a Supreme Creator or a Higher Power, I would welcome dialogue, debate and discussion on this subject, from anyone willing to do so.

The rules of Politeness, courtesy and respect apply... there is no place anywhere for demeaning comments, insults, superiority or condescention. Other than that, the topic is wide open.

Would anyone care to join me?

Absolutely, Alexandra! I firmly believe that inquiry, study and introspection are essential stepping stones in the path to personal enlightenment. Carry on!

Well... To give a brief outline...
I was born into an Italian Roman Catholic family... I was baptised, raised, and educated into the Catholic faith. I attended a Catholic Boarding School, run by a Spanish order of nuns in the UK, and I took first Holy Communion, and then Confirmation... I married my husband in a full RC Nuptual Mass and raised my two daughters as Roman Catholics, sending them to RC dioscesian schools, and even became a School Governor for the primary school, for five years.
So it's not as if I don't know anything about being a Christian....

About seven years ago, I took refuge in the Triple Gem and decided to follow a Buddhist path...
There were many things to which I was just unable to reconcile myself to... as I mentioned in the other thread, I cannot get my head round a God who on the one hand seems willing to perform the minor miracles so many people choose to attribute to him, but who still seems perfectly willing and able to permit disasters on a catastrophic unimaginable scale, to occur.... if His omnipotence is so supreme, and his love and care for his creation so all-encompassing, then why does He not act?

This may bear all the markings of a na�ve and puerile question, but it is a valid one nevertheless, and all this tosh about the Mystery of God's plan just cuts no ice with me. Devout men of God have sought to answer the question, without success, and have no credibility as a result. If this is to test our faith, I call it callous and nasty... if a person is devout and they wholeheartedly give their Life to God, only to suffer torment and distress, and then call it God's plan, well.... I'm stumped, I truly am...
If your child had a teacher at school, who repeatedly asked your child to produce their best work possible, in their neatest writing, and with wonderful colourful drawings...then tore it all up and put it in the bin, saying "that's good, but do it again, I don't want that..." heck - you'd complain, wouldn't you? You'd kick up stink, and ask they be reprimanded....
Well, that's what God seems to do....

Some plan!!

My grand-father was a circuit rider for the Methodist Church in northern California. I was raised primarily Methodist (hard to get away from). Mom married an Episcopalian (so that's thrown in too). I attended a catholic college run by the Sisters of Charity--though its about as liberal as a religious college can get and still claim ties; and participated in the Catholic church during my undergrad studies. I had tremendous opportunity to study with theologians and researchers working on cross-religious studies and the relationship of religion to modern life. So, my "perspective" on faith and religion is a little... mixed.

My grandfather taught me, and I firmly believe, that there is a power greater than man. "God" as a term, works for me. God was the creator and the original advisor (much like a parent), but then God turned man loose (the whole free will thing). Maybe God intervenes intermittently, but I think for the most part that God stands back--as any good parent would--and lets the children do for themselves. If you love something, you set it free to do as it will.

The issue of heaven/hell, for me, is a matter of perspective. I believe these to be simple constructs created by man. After all, what man doesn't want to believe that if you do well in life, you have some sort of reward; but if you perform badly, there is a punishment?

As for miracles and disasters, we live in a world governed by chaos. Some things are just unpredictable... and unexplainable. That doesn't mean that "God" or "Satan" stepped in and boom something happened. It simply means that "it" happened. And I'm okay with that.

I worry when people are so involved in a religion that they lose sight of the greater power--the whole focus is on a text or a ritual and all else becomes meaningless. I think that oneness with a greater power, spirituality, faith--whatever you want to call it--involves so much more than blindly following a text edited by man. As I've said in other posts, for me there is no one-size-fits all path to "God." Enlightenment is a very individualized journey, and each person's path is different.

I'm afraid I take issue with this aspect too....I find it galling that a person is promised a place at God's side after he dies...it's a future, uncertain and unguaranteed reward, that he may or may not get, depending on the quality - and quantity, - of his devotion...The reward is always 'out there', in the future, intangible and unseen...
Hell...Well, many would argue that there are those who are living their personal hell right now...in poverty, famine, sickness, deprivation, oppression....



I worry too...But I worry more at times, when, even if presented with 'food for thought', or something which might stimulate them to view their beliefs from a different perspective, they respond in a "La la la! I'm not listening!" fingers-in-the-ears type of way.....rather that view the discussion as a stimulating challenge, with the potential to increase their own understanding and broaden their horizons, they retreat and refuse to engage in what might have turned into constructive dialogue.

And you are absolutely right. Everyone's path is different, and I would defend to the death the right of everyone to find and to travel that path... But pack a good lunch, have a good walking stick, and be prepared to negotiate all territories.....and be prepared also, to divert occasionally and wander, and above all, to smell the roses...

Yes, I've come across this quite a bit. Buckner Fanning, a major Southern Baptist preacher in Texas (now retired), gave the commencement address when I graduated from university (a catholic university). In his address, he spoke of the need for introspection, of inquiry and debate, of understanding, and of tolerance. It was extremely heartening to hear his words; and even more so as I've met the man and know that he LIVES his beliefs as well as speaks them.

The absolute refusal of some to seek out knowledge is frightening.

On another tangent...

What is your perspective on prayer/meditation? I sort of view these two terms as interchangeable concepts.

In the manner in which I was raised, I do talk to "God" on a regular basis. I don't so much see it as a conversation between two separate entities, however. I see it more as a way of discussing issues internally, of centering myself spiritually, and sometimes as a way of coming to peace with an issue. I don't, however, expect answers--unless I provide them for myself.

Alexandra,
I hope I'm welcome here, and I'm sorry if I came across as defensive on the Bible Basix forum. I didn't mean to be. I thought we were having a pretty good debate with you putting out your points and me bringing counterpoints (I was on debate team in HS! LOL) I've enjoyed talking with you as you make intelligent remarks, and I count Samten (the Buddhism moderator) as a good friend - we share much in common in our personal lives and she has been teaching me about the ways of Buddhism. I have great respect for the faith, I find it's only lack is the absence of God. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I feel that Christians can learn things from other faiths. Buddhism for instance has definitely embraced the "forgive thy neighbor" part of the bible WAY more than most of us have. Jehovah's Witness is much more fervent about spreading their gospel and make it their #1 priority, where many of us fall very short. In Islamic nations prayer is an integral part of daily life, whereas many Christians just fit it in where and when we can.

It's rather sad that (as you say) we have no bending points on our faith - yet we fall short in so many ways.

Now, as for the "Why does God let bad things happen?" This is my opinion (and others that I have spoken with.) In Genesis when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Life and were put out of Eden, they lost the ultimate protection of God, they were cast out into the earth that was Satan's domain (where Lucifer was cast down to after his fall from Heaven).
God could step in, but He had given this portion up to Satan - some would say this is Hell for the time being- at least until Armageddon comes. (See Jim Low's article for background).

Yet I believe He still took mercy on us, His children, and has influenced the earth to make it bearable to live here and to give us hope. I'm big on hope - Jenna was kind enough to allow me to write an article for her site about hope. We show faith, He gives us hope, and then when all is over we have the promise of perfection as long as we have had faith. He's not asking for perfection from us here- because He knows we can't give it, He'll give it to us in return for our faithfulness.

Michelle, you are more than welcome, as ever... I have posted a response in the other thread, by way of an explanation....

The main issue I find contention with is that I get the impression, (and always have done...this is neither relevant nor pertinent to this discussion alone) that God has a sneaky way of moving the goalposts.
If he gave Mankind Free Will, why permit him to also have the negative aspect of temptation? It's like giving with one hand and taking away with the other... Good news, bad news.....
I simply cannot "forgive" Him for the cruel tricks he plays upon his devoted and consistent followers...I appreciate that there are Mysteries..there are in Buddhism also, as I mentioned in the 'other' thread...But at least the Buddha pointed out what these mysteries were, and why one shouldn't bash ones' self over the head with them....

This is what I mean...

"Look, I gave you a wonderful home, a brilliant garden, all the food you could eat, and all the animals of the sea, land and air to govern over... But you naughty things, I told you not to eat from that tree..."( EDITOR: Then why put it there in the first place?) "But no! Oh no...you just had to do it, didn't you? It's no good blaming him, you didn't have to listen to him! Yes, it's his job to be sneaky, and no, he shouldn't be here, and yes, this is my patch, and therefore security was obviously lax...but that's besides the point....Well, that's it! Out!!"

"What? No second chance? No 'three strikes and you're out? No chance to at least try to make amends? that's a bit harsh, isn't it? Even criminals get probation or community service..."

"Nope. You get to live out there now...By the way, that's someone else's patch... and I could actually wipe him out at a stroke, because I can, being omnipotent, but...d'you know what? I'm not going to.... and what's more, I'm going to make entry requirements pretty harsh, too.... Boy, you guys sure gotta work some to get into my good books...Which, incidentally, you won't be permanent fixtures of until AFTER you die.... Oh, and put some clothes on!!"

But all things considered, You are Right.... His Holiness the Dalai Lama is in constant touch with representatives of other faiths, and dialogue is continuous, with efforts focussed on finding and celebrating common ground....
When all is said and done, what unites all religons is the encouragement to develop Universal Compassion and unconditional Love... And as far as I am concerned, HH the DL is as worthy and as deserving of a place at God's Right hand as any devout and blessed Godly Christian.

Let's see, I'm probably going to ramble here and touch on a few things in no particular order, then disappear for several days as I have some deadlines to meet.

One thing to realize about America (I'm American) is that it's very very big. There are distinctions between Californians and New Yorkers, for example. Southerners and MidWesterners are different. We have a Bible belt down in the south, and I lived in the South for a while.

Many people seem to think that American is a Christian nation (particularly our presidents). It is not at all. We were founded on religious freedom and separation of church and state. And no matter the statistics of how many Jews, Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Voodooists and Hindi there are, no one religion should ever be considered American. The essence of America is freedom to choose any path you want.

I get upset when I hear politicians thumping that drum. And I get upset when I hear about manifest destiny, a crockload of manure about how God gave Americans this land in some sort of 'city on the hill' attempt to build the best Christian nation ever. Uhh, there were people here already. Is it manifest destiny to slaughter millions of Natives and the buffalo, their livelihood?

Second, American schooling is woefully inadequate in terms of teaching world view. I had to get to college before I studied the East, Buddhism, etc. You don't need a second language, as in the E.U. and the U.K.

Lastly, I believe we can't look at world disasters, hunger in Africa, tornados, tidal waves and the like as if God is not merciful. To do so is to ignore the Buddhist tenet that only man's ignorance causes him suffering.

To say a hurricane is bad is to say death is bad. Is death bad? The suffering of people is not pleasant to watch or experience (my former house in New Orleans is now gone), but to take this too strongly and hurt from it means we are being ignorant. Change is eternal. Chaos is not bad. We don't like it, but it doesn't prove Satan nor that God is unmerciful, etc.

As for Satan, my husband says Satan has to ask God each time he wants to test a person. With this view, one can certainly ask the questions you have asked, Alexandra. What kind of merciful, loving God would ever consent? Why do we need to be tested if God knows our heart condition?

I don't believe in Satan as an external being, but rather a choice for every one of us. Will we rise to the situation or take advantage of it?

I guess I deal in ephemerals. I don't need a white-robed guy with a long white beard in order to believe. I have a little magic in my heart and I've always had it. It works for me. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />