BellaOnline
There is currently a thread title 'Did Adam and Eve's Children have Sex with each other?' which has strayed into other territories, and is now enmeshed in discussing the existence of God, Satan, and the power of Free Will, Choice and consequence.

I have posted quite a few comments in the thread, and have made efforts to respect the beliefs of the Christian posters who find thmselves on 'Home ground' and who quite rightly and understandably are defensive of their faith and beliefs.
It has reached a point where I think it both inadvisable and inappropriate for me to add further comment, as this would challenge and question them and possibly give rise to the opinion that I am acting in an hostile and derisory manner.
I do not want them to either have to justify themselves on what is a Christian forum, and nor do I wish them to formulate an opinion of me which may, in my eyes be unfair and unjustified.

I enjoy theological discussion and a healthy exchange of views and opinions in the form of courteous and respectful debate is one I relish.
But if I may say so, I am British. I am however, also half-Italian, and I live in France. And at 49, I have been around the block a few times. I have had the great fortune of engaging with many people from all walks of life, and from many backgrounds and countries.
I have never encountered any Christians quite as single-mindedly devoted to their faith, as Americans. There are few devout Americans who are willing to enter into a dialogue that might bring the veracity of the Bible, or their faith, into question, under the microscope. And I have yet to encounter any other Christians - even Italian Roman Catholics - who take the Bible quite as literally, or who unquestioningly accept it as the Word of God in its entirety, as these devoted people.
However: Given that this is a Buddhist forum, and that I personally do not ascribe to a Divine Being, a Supreme Creator or a Higher Power, I would welcome dialogue, debate and discussion on this subject, from anyone willing to do so.

The rules of Politeness, courtesy and respect apply... there is no place anywhere for demeaning comments, insults, superiority or condescention. Other than that, the topic is wide open.

Would anyone care to join me?
Absolutely, Alexandra! I firmly believe that inquiry, study and introspection are essential stepping stones in the path to personal enlightenment. Carry on!
Well... To give a brief outline...
I was born into an Italian Roman Catholic family... I was baptised, raised, and educated into the Catholic faith. I attended a Catholic Boarding School, run by a Spanish order of nuns in the UK, and I took first Holy Communion, and then Confirmation... I married my husband in a full RC Nuptual Mass and raised my two daughters as Roman Catholics, sending them to RC dioscesian schools, and even became a School Governor for the primary school, for five years.
So it's not as if I don't know anything about being a Christian....

About seven years ago, I took refuge in the Triple Gem and decided to follow a Buddhist path...
There were many things to which I was just unable to reconcile myself to... as I mentioned in the other thread, I cannot get my head round a God who on the one hand seems willing to perform the minor miracles so many people choose to attribute to him, but who still seems perfectly willing and able to permit disasters on a catastrophic unimaginable scale, to occur.... if His omnipotence is so supreme, and his love and care for his creation so all-encompassing, then why does He not act?

This may bear all the markings of a na�ve and puerile question, but it is a valid one nevertheless, and all this tosh about the Mystery of God's plan just cuts no ice with me. Devout men of God have sought to answer the question, without success, and have no credibility as a result. If this is to test our faith, I call it callous and nasty... if a person is devout and they wholeheartedly give their Life to God, only to suffer torment and distress, and then call it God's plan, well.... I'm stumped, I truly am...
If your child had a teacher at school, who repeatedly asked your child to produce their best work possible, in their neatest writing, and with wonderful colourful drawings...then tore it all up and put it in the bin, saying "that's good, but do it again, I don't want that..." heck - you'd complain, wouldn't you? You'd kick up stink, and ask they be reprimanded....
Well, that's what God seems to do....

Some plan!!
My grand-father was a circuit rider for the Methodist Church in northern California. I was raised primarily Methodist (hard to get away from). Mom married an Episcopalian (so that's thrown in too). I attended a catholic college run by the Sisters of Charity--though its about as liberal as a religious college can get and still claim ties; and participated in the Catholic church during my undergrad studies. I had tremendous opportunity to study with theologians and researchers working on cross-religious studies and the relationship of religion to modern life. So, my "perspective" on faith and religion is a little... mixed.

My grandfather taught me, and I firmly believe, that there is a power greater than man. "God" as a term, works for me. God was the creator and the original advisor (much like a parent), but then God turned man loose (the whole free will thing). Maybe God intervenes intermittently, but I think for the most part that God stands back--as any good parent would--and lets the children do for themselves. If you love something, you set it free to do as it will.

The issue of heaven/hell, for me, is a matter of perspective. I believe these to be simple constructs created by man. After all, what man doesn't want to believe that if you do well in life, you have some sort of reward; but if you perform badly, there is a punishment?

As for miracles and disasters, we live in a world governed by chaos. Some things are just unpredictable... and unexplainable. That doesn't mean that "God" or "Satan" stepped in and boom something happened. It simply means that "it" happened. And I'm okay with that.

I worry when people are so involved in a religion that they lose sight of the greater power--the whole focus is on a text or a ritual and all else becomes meaningless. I think that oneness with a greater power, spirituality, faith--whatever you want to call it--involves so much more than blindly following a text edited by man. As I've said in other posts, for me there is no one-size-fits all path to "God." Enlightenment is a very individualized journey, and each person's path is different.
Quote:


The issue of heaven/hell, for me, is a matter of perspective. I believe these to be simple constructs created by man. After all, what man doesn't want to believe that if you do well in life, you have some sort of reward; but if you perform badly, there is a punishment?


I'm afraid I take issue with this aspect too....I find it galling that a person is promised a place at God's side after he dies...it's a future, uncertain and unguaranteed reward, that he may or may not get, depending on the quality - and quantity, - of his devotion...The reward is always 'out there', in the future, intangible and unseen...
Hell...Well, many would argue that there are those who are living their personal hell right now...in poverty, famine, sickness, deprivation, oppression....

Quote:
I worry when people are so involved in a religion that they lose sight of the greater power--the whole focus is on a text or a ritual and all else becomes meaningless. I think that oneness with a greater power, spirituality, faith--whatever you want to call it--involves so much more than blindly following a text edited by man...... each person's path is different.


I worry too...But I worry more at times, when, even if presented with 'food for thought', or something which might stimulate them to view their beliefs from a different perspective, they respond in a "La la la! I'm not listening!" fingers-in-the-ears type of way.....rather that view the discussion as a stimulating challenge, with the potential to increase their own understanding and broaden their horizons, they retreat and refuse to engage in what might have turned into constructive dialogue.

And you are absolutely right. Everyone's path is different, and I would defend to the death the right of everyone to find and to travel that path... But pack a good lunch, have a good walking stick, and be prepared to negotiate all territories.....and be prepared also, to divert occasionally and wander, and above all, to smell the roses...
Quote:
"La la la! I'm not listening!" fingers-in-the-ears


Yes, I've come across this quite a bit. Buckner Fanning, a major Southern Baptist preacher in Texas (now retired), gave the commencement address when I graduated from university (a catholic university). In his address, he spoke of the need for introspection, of inquiry and debate, of understanding, and of tolerance. It was extremely heartening to hear his words; and even more so as I've met the man and know that he LIVES his beliefs as well as speaks them.

The absolute refusal of some to seek out knowledge is frightening.
On another tangent...

What is your perspective on prayer/meditation? I sort of view these two terms as interchangeable concepts.

In the manner in which I was raised, I do talk to "God" on a regular basis. I don't so much see it as a conversation between two separate entities, however. I see it more as a way of discussing issues internally, of centering myself spiritually, and sometimes as a way of coming to peace with an issue. I don't, however, expect answers--unless I provide them for myself.
Alexandra,
I hope I'm welcome here, and I'm sorry if I came across as defensive on the Bible Basix forum. I didn't mean to be. I thought we were having a pretty good debate with you putting out your points and me bringing counterpoints (I was on debate team in HS! LOL) I've enjoyed talking with you as you make intelligent remarks, and I count Samten (the Buddhism moderator) as a good friend - we share much in common in our personal lives and she has been teaching me about the ways of Buddhism. I have great respect for the faith, I find it's only lack is the absence of God. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I feel that Christians can learn things from other faiths. Buddhism for instance has definitely embraced the "forgive thy neighbor" part of the bible WAY more than most of us have. Jehovah's Witness is much more fervent about spreading their gospel and make it their #1 priority, where many of us fall very short. In Islamic nations prayer is an integral part of daily life, whereas many Christians just fit it in where and when we can.

It's rather sad that (as you say) we have no bending points on our faith - yet we fall short in so many ways.

Now, as for the "Why does God let bad things happen?" This is my opinion (and others that I have spoken with.) In Genesis when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Life and were put out of Eden, they lost the ultimate protection of God, they were cast out into the earth that was Satan's domain (where Lucifer was cast down to after his fall from Heaven).
God could step in, but He had given this portion up to Satan - some would say this is Hell for the time being- at least until Armageddon comes. (See Jim Low's article for background).

Yet I believe He still took mercy on us, His children, and has influenced the earth to make it bearable to live here and to give us hope. I'm big on hope - Jenna was kind enough to allow me to write an article for her site about hope. We show faith, He gives us hope, and then when all is over we have the promise of perfection as long as we have had faith. He's not asking for perfection from us here- because He knows we can't give it, He'll give it to us in return for our faithfulness.
Michelle, you are more than welcome, as ever... I have posted a response in the other thread, by way of an explanation....

The main issue I find contention with is that I get the impression, (and always have done...this is neither relevant nor pertinent to this discussion alone) that God has a sneaky way of moving the goalposts.
If he gave Mankind Free Will, why permit him to also have the negative aspect of temptation? It's like giving with one hand and taking away with the other... Good news, bad news.....
I simply cannot "forgive" Him for the cruel tricks he plays upon his devoted and consistent followers...I appreciate that there are Mysteries..there are in Buddhism also, as I mentioned in the 'other' thread...But at least the Buddha pointed out what these mysteries were, and why one shouldn't bash ones' self over the head with them....

This is what I mean...

"Look, I gave you a wonderful home, a brilliant garden, all the food you could eat, and all the animals of the sea, land and air to govern over... But you naughty things, I told you not to eat from that tree..."( EDITOR: Then why put it there in the first place?) "But no! Oh no...you just had to do it, didn't you? It's no good blaming him, you didn't have to listen to him! Yes, it's his job to be sneaky, and no, he shouldn't be here, and yes, this is my patch, and therefore security was obviously lax...but that's besides the point....Well, that's it! Out!!"

"What? No second chance? No 'three strikes and you're out? No chance to at least try to make amends? that's a bit harsh, isn't it? Even criminals get probation or community service..."

"Nope. You get to live out there now...By the way, that's someone else's patch... and I could actually wipe him out at a stroke, because I can, being omnipotent, but...d'you know what? I'm not going to.... and what's more, I'm going to make entry requirements pretty harsh, too.... Boy, you guys sure gotta work some to get into my good books...Which, incidentally, you won't be permanent fixtures of until AFTER you die.... Oh, and put some clothes on!!"

But all things considered, You are Right.... His Holiness the Dalai Lama is in constant touch with representatives of other faiths, and dialogue is continuous, with efforts focussed on finding and celebrating common ground....
When all is said and done, what unites all religons is the encouragement to develop Universal Compassion and unconditional Love... And as far as I am concerned, HH the DL is as worthy and as deserving of a place at God's Right hand as any devout and blessed Godly Christian.
Let's see, I'm probably going to ramble here and touch on a few things in no particular order, then disappear for several days as I have some deadlines to meet.

One thing to realize about America (I'm American) is that it's very very big. There are distinctions between Californians and New Yorkers, for example. Southerners and MidWesterners are different. We have a Bible belt down in the south, and I lived in the South for a while.

Many people seem to think that American is a Christian nation (particularly our presidents). It is not at all. We were founded on religious freedom and separation of church and state. And no matter the statistics of how many Jews, Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Voodooists and Hindi there are, no one religion should ever be considered American. The essence of America is freedom to choose any path you want.

I get upset when I hear politicians thumping that drum. And I get upset when I hear about manifest destiny, a crockload of manure about how God gave Americans this land in some sort of 'city on the hill' attempt to build the best Christian nation ever. Uhh, there were people here already. Is it manifest destiny to slaughter millions of Natives and the buffalo, their livelihood?

Second, American schooling is woefully inadequate in terms of teaching world view. I had to get to college before I studied the East, Buddhism, etc. You don't need a second language, as in the E.U. and the U.K.

Lastly, I believe we can't look at world disasters, hunger in Africa, tornados, tidal waves and the like as if God is not merciful. To do so is to ignore the Buddhist tenet that only man's ignorance causes him suffering.

To say a hurricane is bad is to say death is bad. Is death bad? The suffering of people is not pleasant to watch or experience (my former house in New Orleans is now gone), but to take this too strongly and hurt from it means we are being ignorant. Change is eternal. Chaos is not bad. We don't like it, but it doesn't prove Satan nor that God is unmerciful, etc.

As for Satan, my husband says Satan has to ask God each time he wants to test a person. With this view, one can certainly ask the questions you have asked, Alexandra. What kind of merciful, loving God would ever consent? Why do we need to be tested if God knows our heart condition?

I don't believe in Satan as an external being, but rather a choice for every one of us. Will we rise to the situation or take advantage of it?

I guess I deal in ephemerals. I don't need a white-robed guy with a long white beard in order to believe. I have a little magic in my heart and I've always had it. It works for me. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Quote:
On another tangent...

What is your perspective on prayer/meditation? I sort of view these two terms as interchangeable concepts.

In the manner in which I was raised, I do talk to "God" on a regular basis. I don't so much see it as a conversation between two separate entities, however. I see it more as a way of discussing issues internally, of centering myself spiritually, and sometimes as a way of coming to peace with an issue. I don't, however, expect answers--unless I provide them for myself.


Funnily enough, a Tibetan Buddhist Lama once said that 'Meditation, then, is how Buddhists pray'....

I have touched albeit briefly, in another thread, on how I quietly venture inwardly and still my thoughts and calm the incessant chatter.... I do not pray in the conventional sense, but, in the way you have described, Bring the Mind home (thanks to Sogyal Rinpoch� for that wonderful term) and find extraordinary peace, serenity and Joy by simply Being.

One of my favourite quotations(that still holds charm for me) from the Bible, is:
"Be Still - and know that I am God." (psalm 46:10)

To be still - to find a calm and quiet state amidst the constant burble of a turbulent world - is an answer to prayer itself.
Quote:


Lastly, I believe we can't look at world disasters, hunger in Africa, tornados, tidal waves and the like as if God is not merciful. To do so is to ignore the Buddhist tenet that only man's ignorance causes him suffering.

To say a hurricane is bad is to say death is bad. Is death bad? The suffering of people is not pleasant to watch or experience (my former house in New Orleans is now gone), but to take this too strongly and hurt from it means we are being ignorant. Change is eternal. Chaos is not bad. We don't like it, but it doesn't prove Satan nor that God is unmerciful, etc.


The First Noble Truth does indeed state that Life is Suffering.... But this gives an unfortunate impression of Buddhism as being a religion preaching eternal pessimism...
Nothing could be further form the Truth.
The original term, translated as 'suffering' is DUKKHA' which has also, however, variously been interpreted as 'Unsatisfactory', 'hard to bear', 'off the mark', and 'up and down'.
The Second Noble Truth expands on this, and explains that the reasons for this, are our clinging, or grasping, and our aversion, or resistance to the First Noble Truth...
That is to say, we cling to the pleasures of Life... we grasp at the desire to perpetuate and maintain these states of happiness... But we experience aversion and frustration when we realise (as we always must) that nothing whatsoever is permanent.. Everything is in a constant state of flux, and does not last for ever... so we find ourselves in a continuous state of frustration, and dissatisfaction....

But you're right...
Whatever happens to us is purely an occurrence that can only be labelled by us according to our perception....

Great Post, Thank you.
Jenna (The Biblebasix Moderator) has posted this in the other thread... Whilst I still maintain my stance on maintaining silence with regard to my comments in that particular thread, I feel adequately justified in exercising my right to respond within this thread....

Quote:
Well, if things like natural disasters can run someone away from God and their faith, I would have to say they are in big trouble when the end finally comes and the anti-christ has free reign on this earth...
better start stock piling food now, because the state of the world is going to get much worse.


This is not the only thing which as caused me to seriously question the existence of a Higher Power... I reserve Judgement, but am not in the slightest bit attracted to the manner in which 'He' (She or It) is portrayed by the sole means available to us... through the scriptures, that, when all is said and done, are still transmissions of interpreted 'Words of God' laid down by Human Beings, according to what they believe is what God intended. Whether such a Power exists or not, I find his protrayal to be arguable and flawed.
the Anti-Christ is doing plenty now, thanks a bunch... he's in plain evidence everywhere, here and now and in the present... What event exactly are you waiting for?

Quote:
it's too bad that people can't seem to give Christianity the respect they demand for their own religious beliefs. But that has been my experience.


Where have I not shown you respect? Where have I derided or mocked, insulted or belittled you? I have nothing but the greatest respect for you and all who adhere to their beliefs as you do. I just don't agree with you at all. Why is disagreement direspectful?
What do you know of Buddhism? What of it's scriptures have you studied? What do you know of Siddharta Gauthama? Have you ever been tempted to study other faiths, in order to simply learn more about the different peoples of this earth...in order to better understand what makes them tick?

Tell me, Jenna.... Tell me what you know, for sure, about Buddhism...

Quote:
In her first couple of posts in the Buddhist forum where she would like to continue her discussion, she claims that she has never met Christians who are so fired up (not a direct quote) about the Bible as here in America. Good! Who wants to be luke warm anyway?


The term 'She' seems here, to be a little derisory...You might at least have the courtesy of addressing me by my name....

I'm glad you've pointed out that it's not a direct quotation... But in doing so, you have introduced a flawed interpretation in your comment. I have met plenty of 'Fired up' Christians in my time... many people passionately devoted, faithful and vibrant in their Love of God and their belief in 'Him'. I would never describe them as 'Luke-warm'....What I was saying, is that I have never met any people anywhere else, (France, Italy, the UK) who adhere so strictly to the Bible and the Testaments as being absolutely, indisputably the factual, historical and true and honest account of events, and all that it depicts and relates as historical, incontrovertible, incontestable accuracy...

A case in point is this newly-discovered parchment and set of writings, portraying Judas as a close friend and confidant of Jesus Christ... Chosen to hear Divine secrets not revealed to the other disciples... if these documents are verified and authenticated, how then, will you have to alter your point of view, with regard to what has hitherto, for hundreds of years, clearly been an innacuracy?
If this is the case, why not take into account all other research that has taken place?

I have said it before, and I will say it again.... Historians, theologians, bibliographers, scientists, various and distinguished experts and archaeologists - many of them also devoted Christians and believers - have sought to divide fact from fiction with their research... This does not ever, however, bring in to doubt the Love of God and his essence as a supreme power... Simply because some of the stuffing has been knocked out of it, it doesn't take away the central message.... I think this is what you perceive... that in attempting to sort the wheat from the chaff, this has further sought to belittle, trivialise and to nullify Christian faith. All this is doing, is clearing muddied waters....
A challenge to the veracity of the Bible is not always a direct confrontation against the existence of a creator....some admittedly have sought to establish this.
I - like the Buddha, and as he instructed - am keeping an open Mind, and not seeking any such thing.
WOW! What an interesting discussion you have opened up, Alexandra!

I am going to contribute by giving some examples from my life. I think they will speak for themselves, as well as for me!

All of my early life I searched for God. I began life as a Methodist in Australia. Methodism was very narrow back then [50 - 60 ears ago] and I was strongly affected by this narrow thinking.

My view of God as a child was as my 'Heavenly Father' to whom I could pray, and by whom I would be protected and cared for IF I WAS A GOOD GIRL!

Well, I suffered two years of bad sexual abuse, and I can remember OH SO CLEARLY praying to my 'Heavenly Father' to save me, protect me, and make the abuse STOP! It was my prayer for those two years, but, I would ask myself, "WHY did He not answer and help me in my need? "

One day, I gave my sunday school teacher a hypothetical case. I told her about a 'friend of mine' who was experiencing these things. I'll never forget her response. She told me to 'stay away from that little girl, because she was a very bad little girl and God didn't love little girls that did things like that'.

So, I had my answer! God didn't help or protect me because I was bad and He didn't love me.

After that, I prayed constantly for healing, because I had developed Dissociative Identity disorder as a result of all the trauma which my little mind couldn't cope with. But healing didn't come. Help didn't come and all my attempts to seek help were silenced - by good Christian people.

I spent the next 20 years of my life trying desperately to please Him and to 'win back' His love. I became an Anglican at the age of 22, and attended church whenever I could, including week days, - I kept faithful vigils on my knees and prayed for forgiveness. I 'talked' to Jesus all the time, and continued to pray that my torment would be eased - but it never happened. The dreadful 'pictures' that tormented my mind were never taken away. My longing to be loved was never answered. I remained totally alone.

Then, when I was 26, I decided that I would give my whole life to GOD, and I entered an Anglican convent as a postulant. I only stayed for 6 months because a friend, who was a Novice there at the same time, told the Mother Superior that I was a lesbian [which was true, though I had never 'acted' upon it. I remained celibate until my mid 30's] As a result, I was asked to leave.

For the next ten years I tried to hold on to my faith. By the time I was 40 yrs old I had become convinced that there was no God, no Devil, no Heaven and no Hell. I found comfort and value in Buddhist teachings, though I never actually adopted the religion.

I am 67 now, and have seen so much of life, pain, injustice and cruelty that I cannot believe in a 'divine plan'. I understood very well (I studied Theology and hold a ThA) the idea that God gives us free choice, and that the horrors of this world are NOT His doing, but ours. However, I reasoned that if there IS a God, then He has a very cruel way of allowing his children to learn their lessons and advance spiritually. I have shown more compassion to a cockroach -( sorry!)

An example of this belief that God 'sends us trials' and the more He loves us, the greater the trials is this comment from a very spiritual nun I know. She knows about all the pain and anguish in my life, and her words of 'comfort' (?) to me recently went something like this:

"You must be a very special friend to God, and his love for you must be very great to have trusted you with all this pain, which you can offer up, as Jesus did. This is why He keeps sending you more. You are one of His trusted friends."

I don't think I need to add more to that. It says it all!
Oh Patience! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> You were hit with so many wrong teachings about God and His love as a child. I can't believe someone had the gall to say that to you. Of course I also can't believe that there are still pastors out there that encourage abused wives to stay with their husbands and be submissive because "that's what good Christian wives do".

Some people just seem to miss the whole point!

I like what your nun said to you! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She has the right idea. I have often heaard it said that God will not give us more than we can handle - but in actuallity it is: God will not give us more than He will prepare us for! We may not feel we can handle it, but if God puts us in a situation and we rely on Him, He will pull us through.

I am haveing to remind myslef of this daily as I am going through my trials with my son at this moment. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Dearest Michelle, thank you for posting and remaining with us, I so value your contribution...

But I cannot agree with you... I personally view what Patience's nun friend said as a back-handed compliment.... Just how much more is God going to allow her to have to tolerate and deal with, before He says, 'Ok, enough is enough....'? And why is he so indiscriminate and selective?
I will tell you a joke my Italian cousin, Lucio told me, many years ago... Italian Catholics love religious jokes...they poke fun at the establishment....

God is sitting in his heaven, watching TV with St. Peter...feet up on the stool, sandals kicked off... popcorn...you get the picture.... flicking through, (as men do!) and zapping, he comes across images of small babies, with distended stomachs, hospitals full of victims of AIDS and lethal diseases, men women and children being blown to pieces by indiscriminate bombs...
he sits up in horror, staring at the screen...
"Peter!! What is all this?? What are all these pictures? Where are they from...?"
"Oh, My Lord! Don't you remember - ? They're your prophesies, Famine, Pestilence, War, Death... the Four Horsemen...you know...? Boy, were you hopping mad when you brought them into the equasion...! Goodness, you meant business...!!
"But...But...That was just a fit of pique! I didn't mean it! I was joking, I tell you.....just kidding!! This is simply dreadful! Awful!! Quick, change channels...what else is on...?"
St Peter flicks through and they come upon a picture of eminent Cardinals and Bishops, dressed and robed in all their finery, strolling down the Aisle of St. Peter's Church in Rome... fine, priceless marble statues, works of art, solid gold candelabras...oppulence and pomp and splendour... and then a banquet where these same overweight, red-faced Churchmen are eating and drinking and laughing....
And God, incredulous, asks...
"And who the **** are these guys - !!??!!"
"Aaaah," replies St. Peter.... "They're the guys who realised you were only kidding....."

One laughs, but it's a bitter irony that there is many a true word said in jest.
I can't bear the hypocrisy of these Human Beings who can permit such disparity and still maintain that the Will of God is what governs our fate... that he sends us trials and tribulations, when those who might deserve better to be put to the test, have a life of comfort and ease, a comfort and priviledge unknown or denied to the millions of unfortunate 'sinners', whilst still fully expecting to be guaranteed a place in Heaven....
Dunno... Can't see it myself.

And the fact that you have had more than your fair share of such testing times - which are still on-going, bless you - is further evidence, (if you will) to me, that His Judgement of who deserves what, seems seriously flawed.....

...And there are those who have absolutely no religion, or faith in any God whatsoever, who day after day, struggle to survive, and manage to do so, against all odds... upon whom or what have they pinned their hopes? What is it then, that sustains and guides them? How to explain the grace and fortitude with which they overcome the insurmountable?

The fact that you show such strength, such fortitude and such determinantion in the face of the adversity you have faced, and are facing, is full, clear and vivid evidence to me that YOU are a powerful, warm, strong, compassionate Human Being, and to my mind, the credit is yours, and yours alone.

Sorry to be so outspoken, but Credit where credit is due.
Alexandra, I personally do not find any link that suffering = pessimism or that it is a "religion" (since I don't really view Buddhism as a religion as much as an individual path) that says all life is suffering is pessimistic.

I view it as more a factual statement, followed up by, it's suffering because of how we view it. Right there is the key and the power is in our hands to transform that suffering into another thing altogether. That's not pessimistic, it's a heavy clue.

Next, there is so much contradiction in Catholicism as practised. First they say Lucifer fell from Heaven and has free reign on this earth, now. Next, they say that the anti-christ will come and run the earth for 1,000 years. Well, has that already started? I already have heard all the theological arguments; some say it has already started, but then some of the key elements are not there.
I'd suggest all who haven't read (recently) The Grand Inquisitor parable in The Brothers Karamazov to check it out.

In it, Jesus comes back. He walks through town and all can recognize Him, he raises from the dead and gives hope.

Then the priest (Grand Inquisitor) shows up. He immediately jails Christ. And proceeds to tell him, in beautifully written prose, that he has no right to come back, no right to change "text of old".

The church has provided for these people, given them the bread he's refused to give them, and the people have slavishly left their free will at the feet of the church. (sound familiar?)

Dostoevsky says it better than I can and you can find it online; please do read it.

In essence, by the strict and slavish following of the bible, they have done what Nietzsche said they did. "God is dead." Why? Because we have killed him. Through organized religion, we have killed all the essence of the truth of it.

To Patience, I am very sorry that was your early upbringing. My father was raised Catholic and it tortured him. He therefore raised his kids with no religion, allowing us to choose ONLY when we were adults.

An adult mind is better able to cope with choosing a path. You were harmed because your childlike mind believed some things it should never have been led to believe. You are not to blame.
I wasn't insinuating that you personally had found this connection....But it has thus been put to me by others, and I have seen it misinterpreted and described this way... I was just clarifying the point for those who might be interested, that's all...As this is a Buddhist thread, and we might get visitors... (put kettle on....!)

Au contraire, I find your handle on all relevant matters very lucid and sensible...It's a breath of fresh air to read your posts!
JimLow offered this in the other thread....

Quote:
Jenna,I too hope I am often accused of being fired up!

Rom 8:18 "..the sufferings of this present life are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us."

I Cor 15:24-26 "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enimies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

God allows evil to run its course because of man's disobediance but Praise God, all evil, suffering and death, will be eliminated forever in the future!

Rev 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


You see...This is what I mean about all these promises and assurances being in the future tense.... there is no sense of reward in the Now...it's all far and away... after you die....after you've gone through goodness knows how many more trials, tribulations and tests of faith...


Promises, promises.....

If He was a schoolteacher, we'd have him suspended...
if a dog trainer did this to his animals, we'd report him to the 'wherever' Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals....
This kind of behaviour on a human level would be at best, frowned upon, at worst, intolerable.
Doesn't anybody see this?
Hello Everyone,
I think that you have all written things that are food for thought, and I am so much in admiration of your compassion and understanding.

Thank you for your love!

I have to admit though that I tend to lean towards Alexandra's thoughts on all this.

Those of you who are mothers, I would ask these questions:

Your child is precious to you and you want her/him to grow into a beautiful human being.
Do you therefore heap suffering onto him/her to teach that child to be more loving?
Do you allow terrible things to go on happening to your beloved child when you could intervene?
Do you tell your child that you are giving him/her MORE pain because you love him/her so much?
Do you ignore his/her cries for help, and smile in satisfaction that he/she continues to trust and love and show compassion to others while being degraded, torn apart, mentally damaged and screaming in agony because this is how you show your love?

Further more, do you continue to do this for 60 plus years, continuing to strip, test, and then, when your child finally can take no more, and commits suicide to escape the pain and horror that you have seen fit to either inflict, or allow in the NAME OF LOVE - do you then say that you didn't give your child more than you knew they could cope with?

SURELY NOT!

If a Parent could not do this to their child, then what does this say about the 'Heavenly Parent' - GOD! There just cannot possibly be one. If there is, He should cover His face in shame!
Quote:
Where have I not shown you respect? Where have I derided or mocked, insulted or belittled you? I have nothing but the greatest respect for you and all who adhere to their beliefs as you do. I just don't agree with you at all. Why is disagreement direspectful?
What do you know of Buddhism? What of it's scriptures have you studied? What do you know of Siddharta Gauthama? Have you ever been tempted to study other faiths, in order to simply learn more about the different peoples of this earth...in order to better understand what makes them tick?


No you never did personally, I was reacting in a more general sense is all....

Quote:
The term 'She' seems here, to be a little derisory...You might at least have the courtesy of addressing me by my name....


I'm sorry I could have. It was a rash decsion on my part. I simply didn't want to "name names"...
i will go back and change it if you think I should.

Quote:
A challenge to the veracity of the Bible is not always a direct confrontation against the existence of a creator....some admittedly have sought to establish this.
I - like the Buddha, and as he instructed - am keeping an open Mind, and not seeking any such thing.


I would like to commend Alexandra publically for making this and the previous statements here that would have been a monstrous quote if I'd quoted the whole thing. I am sometimes a faster thinker than I am a typist and sometimes what I write is misconstrued and not made clear. For this I apologize. Those who know me know that I work very hard to not offend people and that it is not my motivation to appear derisive.

I always ask the Lord to help me write and give all the glory to him for the articles that I write or that He directs me to post on the Bible Basics site. I am sure that someone somewhere needs to read what I have written or what others have written and I have had the priviledge to publish for them or re-publish with their permission.

Like I wrote on another post in another forum, I am not an evangelist, nor am I called to teach or preach. I am not called to judge, but being judgemental is my thorn in my side. I am called to love everyone the way the Lord loves me. That is my calling. That is the only thing the Lord has asked me to do. And sometimes it is hard for me to do, hard but not impossible.

My faith in God is my strength. I know there are many forms of God-worship. I know that for some people they call their god by a different name. I believe there is only one God and I believe the Bible is His Holy Word. That is my belief. It has become a huge part of my life, but never detracts me from the real mission in my life which is to show His love to everyone. I have often said that Tolerance is not Respect. I believe that, but there are some aspects to living this way that can appear harsh and unloving to some. When it appears that I am refuting anothers religion and saying that the only true religious belief should be in Christ, I am doing this because my realtionship with Jesus Christ has saved my life more times than I care to count. And I only want eveyone to experience what I have experienced. I'm one small little woman, not a scholar, not a theologian, just a child of God who is called to love others and present the Love of Christ to them in my own unique way.

In response to the above post about the reward being in the future and not the here and now.... we all want what we want right now. I have this longing for reward too. I claim my reward in the ease which I feel going to the foot of the cross for love. I can cast my cares on Him and know that He loves me. I am not alone and I am not forsaken. I don't have to do all the fighting by myself. I'm not in this just me. I have the whole of heaven on my side. I look forward to eternity with Christ instead of just this little time here on earth. And anyone with kids knows just how short this life is...

I'll stop before I just keep rambling on... lol... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Jenna, thank you.

Thank you for practising what you preach (or don't preach, as you eloquently point out!!) and thank you for being big enough and generous enough to come back and clarify.

I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for what is obviously a deep, heart-felt and unshakeable faith that you hold dear in your heart and Mind.
Good for you.
Your post manifests that Belief and Love, and I commend it and somehow wish that all could share in it and know it as you do....

There are those however (as indicated above) who have a less gracious and charitable view of their Christian Experience, and whose memories are distressing, harrowing and very sad....

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here (oh my!! And me, a Buddhist! There are perhaps those who would consider that I do that most of the time!)

Some time ago, in another forum, I was discussing Christian faith and upbringing with another contributor, and they too explained of horrific and dreadful experiences they had had to suffer at the hands of so-called "God's Representatives"...
His resentment, anger and hostility towards the Church was very deep and very real... but I took pains to gently unfold the point that the Religion and fundamental belief in a Saviour had nothing to do with what he had suffered... It was the warped transmission and interpretation, by wretched human beings that had so sadly coloured his perception...
One has to make a distinction between what God, Jesus Christ and his followers originally taught, and step out of the realm of how all this is implemented and passed on by people who purport to personify God and his Works, but who in fact, may be more sinners than we are - !!

Much has been said about the dreadful goings-on by priests, nuns and monks who preyed upon the young and vulnerable....Much has further been said about the Authorities who, by turning a blind eye, condoned such matters, and did nothing to save those who most needed help... The Roman Catholic Church historically did nothing in WWII to condemn Hitler's treatment of the Jews, and turned a blind eye and a deaf ear... they also harboured Nazi Criminals, worked in close liaison with Mussolini, and still have countless thousands in money held for the Germans in safekeeping. the Catholic Church now has an Austrian ex- Nazi-Hitler youth member at its' head... Well, go figure!

But he may be a Good Man.... and doubtless other Heads of Church or other faiths, may have dark secrets they harbour, which would reveal their hypocrisy and avarice... who knows?

The Islam faith is taking a severe knock at the moment, due to an enormous amount of bad press (to say the least!) but the trouble-makers are actually few, if you in turn, count those Muslims who condemn them and attempt to distance themselves from these misguided fanatics. Moslems that I know personally (at my RC nuptual mass wedding ceremony, I had a bridesmaid who was Moslem, and the Priest was delighted!) wholeheartedly deplore what is happening at the moment, and there is division and discord, but they too hold fast their faith in Allah, and pray for guidance and salvation...

Ou perception is blurred... Just as we hold a whole company responsible, and say they are dreadful people to do business with, if we happen to find one employee who's having a bad day, the entire faith or Church comes under scrutiny, judgement, ridicule and condemnation, if we have had the disastrous misfortune to encounter those faithful who should know better but who have done so much worse...

None of the above does anything or should do anything - to detract from What God is, who Jesus Christ is, and what the Message is: Universal Compassion and Unconditional Love. Plain and simple. And It has been said by those concerned on 'both' sides, that Jesus and Buddha, with their message, walk hand in hand....
Jenna, I fully understand, appreciate and applaud your stance on the perception you have of a future life with Christ in Heaven.

For my part, I have my reward now, because I am already eternally at Peace...If only I could prove this to you, by revealing the Inner Joy and Serenity in my Heart and Mind...

You can have no idea in what turmoil the Life I am leading is, at the moment... I am at the centre of a maelstrom of misfortune which were I to recount in full, might make your hair curl...
But it's nobody's business but my own, and like everything else, is transitory and impermanent.... This too shall pass.
I have my Anchor Here and Now, and feel completely at One with all I see, hear and breathe....
This may come across as arrogant and conceited, and thus, if so, I apologise... I am merely explaining that from what I have learnt and understood, the Here and Now is all we have, for sure...so this is where I am. In the Here and the Now. And am perfectly Bliss-ful.

I'm sorry this post has been so long.... but I hope in that time, you have managed to boil your egg and make your toastie soldiers...!!

Metta, Namaste and blessings.
You don't come across as arrogant or conceited - you come across as 'at peace with yourself and the world' and 'spiritual'. That's based on reading most of what you write on the boards, not just on this subject <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Jane
Deep Gassho, Greenspice; You are too kind.
Thanks for the compliment, Alexandra, and I return it in kind. Very interesting to read and well-spoken, as are all of you in here.

Quote:
Do you therefore heap suffering onto him/her to teach that child to be more loving?
Do you allow terrible things to go on happening to your beloved child when you could intervene?
Do you tell your child that you are giving him/her MORE pain because you love him/her so much?
Do you ignore his/her cries for help, and smile in satisfaction that he/she continues to trust and love and show compassion to others while being degraded, torn apart, mentally damaged and screaming in agony because this is how you show your love?


I'm a step-mother. In answer to your questions, I try to lead by example. By showing kindness and being kind. As to all your other questions, no.
That was my point exactly. Good parents don't treat their children this way!

I was comparing this with what some people have told me that God does to his children that He loves.
You are wrong, totaly wrong. My way is best and I will show my beliefs in a loving compasionate god by being critical and defensive. No I am not being defensive because what you say threatens my belief in a life after death so I do not have fear extinction but because i am right an you are wrong. I will bring you into gods loving arms by being intolerant of those who believe other than I do rather than showing you love and compassion as as my god shows me.

sarcasm off

unable to post in another forum i post my impressions here
Well hello there - !
Aing..You're very welcome to express your views and opinions here.. I value everyone's contribution, regardless of what faith or creed. The recommendations (as listed in my first post) apply. Taking those into account, thank you for joining us.... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
"there is no place anywhere for demeaning comments, insults, superiority or condescention."

I regret my condescending sarcasm. It offered nothing to this rational discussion. I was just PO'd at the time. Again not an excuse. Thank you for this forum.
That's cool and fine by me. You're very welcome. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
In regards to the "parenting" issue, I believe that the higher power has provided man with the tools needed to grow and survive--intelligence and discernment. We are given free will then to do with life as we may. Should we choose to use the tools provided, good. If we choose not to, that is our choice. It is not up to the parent to intervene once the child has learned enough to responsibly exercise free will.
It seems that many of you have missed the point I was trying to make.

My references to 'parenting' were in response to this:

> An example of this belief that God 'sends us trials' and the more He loves us, the greater the trials is this comment from a very spiritual nun I know. She knows about all the pain and anguish in my life, and her words of 'comfort' (?) to me recently went something like this:
>
> "You must be a very special friend to God, and his love for you must be very great to have trusted you with all this pain, which you can offer up, as Jesus did. This is why He keeps sending you more. You are one of His trusted friends."

I was trying to show that good parents don't do this to their children, so why should God! Does God have less love and respect for His children than we have for ours/? If He DOES treat those He loves in this way, then either He is NOT a loving God at all, or He doesn't exist! I prefer to believe that He doesn't exist because I could have no respect for such a God.

I hope this clarifies what I was saying.
What an interesting thread I wandered into, thank you Alexandra for starting this! I have much more reading to do since there are a few more pages here. Usually I am more of a lurker type as I am not handy with words, feelings are my thing.

I am fascinated by religion. I don't follow any one path, more of a pagan/witch. I try to live my life well and be nice to people and treat them right. I fail miserably when it comes to my boss, therefore wind up creating my own "hell" there because I am still learning to control my emotions from blurting out of my mouth.

Patience, you are an amazing and strong woman!

p.s. I like Aing's humor <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Isn't she....?
I have corresponded with her privately - she's even more amazing than you think!

A very good friend of mine in the UK is wicca, and has been a pagan for twenty years or so...She has attained quite a position of power and authority...Yet, through her own choice, decided to leave such things to one side, because she realised that most - if not all - of what she was practising, and holding dear to her heart, was actually Buddhism. Or as close to it as she could get. She has ben talking to me for some time now, and has decided to 'Take Refuge' officially, in the summer...

Buddhism has been around a long time, and has stood the test of time. There is still much I do not know, an awful lot I do not understand, but Boy! I'm having so much fun being 'ignorant' - !!

Welcome to you, and nice to meet you! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SUPREME BEING?

Hello Everyone,
I saw something on the TV news tonight that made me feel quite ill!

Some of you may have heard about the mining accident in Tasmania, Audtralia.. It was originally believed that the three remaining men who had not been rescued were dead. After 5 days down there, there seemed little hope.

Well, the sad news is that one is dead, but the good news is that the other two are alive. [they still have to dig them out, and that will take time, but they are alive and well.] Now, I can hear some of you saying 'Praise God' - Fine!

What upset me, and actually made me feel very angry, was that there were several people there, dancing for joy and singing "He is a miracle" and waving their arms around, saying how they had been praying to God and He had answered their prayers and performed a miracle and how merciful He was in saving these two men.

That is fine BUT, standing by, was the family of the man who died - with tears rolling down their faces, and yet being grateful that their two friends had been spared.

The 'praises' went on, and I felt like throwing up!

What would the parents, wife, children of the dead man be feeling? Was God only merciful to the other two, but not to their loved one?
Was this 'miracle' not for all three, and why not?
Is God selective with His mercy and miracles?
Does God play favourites?

I felt my heart breaking for the family whom God had seen fit NOT to bless, and there were these good Christians dancing and singing with joy while this shattered family looked on in their grief - knowing that their loved one was not included in the 'mercy' or the 'miracle' and that their lives had been shattered forever.

The fact of the matter was that the two men who lived through the mine collapse were fortunate enough to be in a metal cage when disaster struck, so they were proteced from the cave in. The third man was not, and he died. It was an accident of nature, and it was the two survivors' inner strength and mutual support of each other which enabled them to survive the five days down there. God, if indeed He exists, may have given them strength to survive, but it certainly was no miracle. And I don't believe it had anything to do with His mercy either. This is a testimony to the human spirit and survival instinct.

Will the other man's family, if they are Christians, ever get over the idea that their loved one was not included in Gods miracle, and God's mercy? I wonder what thoughts of doubt and torment are now passing through their minds? I saw their faces, and I have a pretty good idea, - and THAT'S what makes me feel sick.
Sorry, that should have been 'AUStralia'!

Also, one little thing to add to this is that one of the people told the TV reporter that "God's miracles aren't just performed up here, but 'down there' as well." Oh boy!
I do not believe that "God" tries us. I think we do a good enough job of trying our selves on a day to day basis. We don't really need help with that.

I don't believe that the higher power actively intervenes in the lives of man. Things happen. We make choices and place ourselves in situations where the likelihood of something bad happening (working in a mine--cave ins; building homes in flood plains--floods; etc.) is very high.

Some things defy explanation (or more likely, there are some things for which we haven't yet found an explanation and may not in our lifetime)--an innocent child dying of a rare, untreatable, painful illness, suffering tragically.

In my view, "God" would view these incidents with as much pain and tragedy as those who suffered here on earth--but "God" would not interfere. Its sort of in the contract. When you give someone total freedom, you step back completely and let them have at. And in the end, when all is said and done and we die, returning to the dust from whence we came, "God" awaits us. Perhaps for all eternity, perhaps for a short-time as we wait to be reincarnated, perhaps only fleetingly as we transition from this plane to another... I haven't really made my mind up regarding what happnes to our souls after this life.
Lynn, very wisely spoken. I can certainly relate to that.

Thank you for your caring response.

Bless you!
Quote:

Some things defy explanation (or more likely, there are some things for which we haven't yet found an explanation and may not in our lifetime)... I haven't really made my mind up regarding what happnes to our souls after this life.


Lynn...excellent post...

As you rightly say, there are many things to which we are not privvy, and neither do we have the available mental resources or flexibility to be able to work it all out - it might very well "blow our Minds"! The Buddha spoke of four imponderables... one of which this is....
And he encouraged those chancing upon them, to leave them to one side...because constant effort to discover the answers would be an unnecessary and futile distraction from living in the Now..Being Mindful, and 'following The Path.'

An excellent book, written by a Tibetan master, Sogyal Rinpoch�, touches on this very subject, and brings clarity and insight. You might have heard of it...
"The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying". In it, he respectfully and reverently discusses near-death experiences, and the attitude to dying and death, from the perspective of many religions other than his own. It's a fascinating tome. A classic, in fact.

Good on you....
Nice to meet you too. I told my mom a couple years ago I wanted a little Buddah statue because he makes me smile. She bought me one of those little itty bitty mini ones that come in a small box from gift stores. Her husband had a FIT! I like my little buddy, he has a happy aura.
Quote:
I fail miserably when it comes to my boss, therefore wind up creating my own "hell" there because I am still learning to control my emotions from blurting out of my mouth.


I have my own cure for this, Skinny... they make these wonderful dolls--with all of the pieces attached by velcro (head, arms, legs). They have shirts that say "The Boss". When I just can't stand it anymore, I pull out the doll, rant for a bit, pull it apart, achieve calmness, put it back together, apologize to it for the pain I caused it, and stuff it in my desk drawer.

Cheers!
I wrote an article about stuff like this, it's called God's Surgery...

But it probably won't make much difference to some of you... lol... thats OK by the way, <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think what the nun in one of the previous posts was alluding to is "To him that is given much, much is expected." Don't ask me to give you the Biblical coordinates, I can't do that off the top of my head.

I personally am not a religious Christian. I used to have a bumper sticker on an old car the read "Jesus Freak". I think it's a proper label. To me, the Words in the Bible, especially the New Testament, make sense and are clear, even Revelation. I attribute this to the fact that the Lord has opened my spiritual eyes and given me the gift of spiritual discernment. I don't know how I feel about this and I may be wrong. But for me, my "higher power" will always be Jesus.
Revelations. Other than everything will end someday, I get little out of it. Though my neighbors tell me they've predicted the date of the end of the world based on this text (we all remember the Y2K thing, right?.
Lynn, I think you shot to the heart of it.

I know as a Christian I am often frustrated by "why did this prayer get answered, but not that one". Or why a "good" person has to die of a terminal brain tumor, while a serial killer never catches a cold. I am right now fighting to not whine or wallow in despair over the situation with my son. I keep wanting to say, "When is it enough?" (OK, forget the wanting to say, I have been saying it!)

My greatest comfort is in knowing that down here is not perfect. That bad things happen on earth, that things aren't fair here. But that this is not my Home anymore. This is just where I am waiting to live out my life while I can hopefully teach others about the same joy and love Christ has brought me. My Home comes after all of this - and that will be perfect and fair.

God never said we had to be miserable while we were here. We make our own choices as to how we live our lives. We get hit with some things we never see coming- but as a Christian, I know I still have a Promise to look forward to, so I can have hope in all things.

My faith is a choice I make to believe in my Savior � no matter how I feel. His love is a reality He demonstrated to me when He died on the cross for me. And hope is the gift He gave me that day. For no matter what happens to me on this earth, no matter how I feel, no matter how dark the pit is sometimes; I have the promise that I will be lifted into the light with Him in heaven at the end! That is HOPE.
(quote)"I think what the nun in one of the previous posts was alluding to is "To him that is given much, much is expected."

Does this mean that because I was 'given' much pain and suffering, that much is expected of me?
No wonder I can't believe in God! <img src="/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />
To get my previous comment into context, here again is what that nun told me.

"An example of this belief that God 'sends us trials' and the more He loves us, the greater the trials is this comment from a very spiritual nun I know. She knows about all the pain and anguish in my life, and her words of 'comfort' (?) to me recently went something like this:

"You must be a very special friend to God, and his love for you must be very great to have trusted you with all this pain, which you can offer up, as Jesus did. This is why He keeps sending you more. You are one of His trusted friends."

In the light of this, I ask again, does this mean that because I was 'given' much pain and suffering, that much more is expected of me?
Michelle, Whilst I sincerely admire your faith and am glad that it gives you succour and solace, I quietly blanch at the word 'HOPE' here...
Forgive me, but to me it simply infers 'fingers crossed'.... that you're pinning your prayers to an unknown, the outcome of which is a mystery to you... so to speak of a Promise, and a Hope, in one sentence, is a contradiction, surely....?
A Promise, to me, is a given - a guarantee and a hard, concrete statement of fact... Hope is something we pin our prayers to, but it leaves us in limbo...uncertain and not knowing.
I apologise if I appear to be questioning your belief and faith. I do not do this. My eternal gripe here, and elsewhere (though I don't go there nowadays!)is the dangling carrot... the assurance that if you subject yourself to everything fate can throw at you, then eventually, you'll be paid back. Maybe. Possibly.

And for my part, having decided to lay that to one side, and follow a road (according to this forum) less travelled, to me, it really HAS made all the difference.
I guess I should have qualified - we have the promise of Heaven come the end of our lives (or earth - whichever comes first)

But while we are here on earth we have hope to keep us going.

I guess its a fine distinction, and to me way more than just crossing fingers. Because as a person who suffers from clinical depression - I know what it feels like to be without hope. It is much more powerful than just wishing, and it can be a driving force in one's life - I know it has been in mine!
[color:"red"] Thank you Michelle... Lovely as ever to hear from you again.... [/color]

Papavagga - Evil
Translated from the Pali,
by Acharya Buddharakkhita


116. Hasten to do good; restrain your mind from evil. He who is slow in doing good, his mind delights in evil.

117. Should a person commit evil, let him not do it again and again. Let him not find pleasure therein, for painful is the accumulation of evil.

118. Should a person do good, let him do it again and again. Let him find pleasure therein, for blissful is the accumulation of good.

119. It may be well with the evil-doer as long as the evil ripens not. But when it does ripen, then the evil-doer sees (the painful results of) his evil deeds.

120. It may be ill with the doer of good as long as the good ripens not. But when it does ripen, then the doer of good sees (the pleasant results of) his good deeds.

121. Think not lightly of evil, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the fool, gathering it little by little, fills himself with evil.

122. Think not lightly of good, saying, "It will not come to me." Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the wise man, gathering it little by little, fills himself with good.

123. Just as a trader with a small escort and great wealth would avoid a perilous route, or just as one desiring to live avoids poison, even so should one shun evil.

124. If on the hand there is no wound, one may carry even poison in it. Poison does not affect one who is free from wounds. For him who does no evil, there is no ill.

125. Like fine dust thrown against the wind, evil falls back upon that fool who offends an inoffensive, pure and guiltless man.

126. Some are born in the womb; the wicked are born in hell; the devout go to heaven; the stainless pass into Nibbana.

127. Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean, nor by entering into mountain clefts, nowhere in the world is there a place where one may escape from the results of evil deeds.

128. Neither in the sky nor in mid-ocean, nor by entering into mountain clefts, nowhere in the world is there a place where one will not be overcome by death.


[color:"red"]I thought it might interest some to see what the Buddha said about reaping what you sow, and the rewards for those whose intention it is to do Good...

These are an interesting set of verses. Remember that they date from about 400years BC - and I say that, with reference to Vs: 126...

I know that there are many people who used to be Christian, and who still have strong links with that faith, or at least some strong ties....And who might also possibly wonder why those who do 'evil' or wrong to others - seem to prosper. It feels so unjust.....

I can say, in my experience, I've known people who have "worked the system" or "gotten away with ripping someone off" or cheating another person... and who seemed to find nothing but good falling back into their laps....

But I also know that while these people seem to prosper initially, they are just biding their time until this "fruit" ripens. Fruit doesn't grow and ripen overnight. It is something that takes time.

But, unfortunately, once this "fruit" ripens - once they have lived a lifetime of cheating, shorting, lying, conniving - it seems to ripen quickly and painfully.

I honestly don't know how much good I do. But good is something that I do wish to sow in my life. For those around me, whether they ask me or not, and whether they know it or not.

And believe me, the Fruit of Good Garma ripens a darned sight quicker than the other....
[/color]
Patience,

No, I think the nun was wrong...

I don't have any answers as to why there is so much suffering and pain. Some say it's the testing of our souls, while others respond with the fact that satan is the king of this world and as long as we are questioning the Omnipotence of God we are separated from Him and therefore fodder for the devil to play with as he wishes. I don't necessarily subscribe to these ways of thinking whole heartedly.

I think it's this: I think we live in a fallen world. As long as we are living here we will gothrough some really unpleasant stuff. So we have something to look forward to when we are with God. if everything was wonderful here what would we need God for? I rely on Him to lift my sprit even when things are dark and rotten. I don't ask why I ask when. When will I be able to be with God in heaven and have Him wipe every tear from my eyes? When will I be home?

So for me, it's alittle of both. Testing to see if I can trust Him to have everything in hand, even when I don't understand why something had to happen to me of all people. And the fact that there is an enemy of my soul who just wants to break up my relationship with Jesus ; to destroy my faith and in the end my soul.

I don't know if this answers your question, or just gives you food for thought. I know this is one question I plan on asking Jesus when I see Him. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Great post, Jenna. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Just for the record, if someone wants to break up your relationship with Jesus....It's not me..... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

EDIT:

And as to your final comment...Boy...If I was jesus, I'd watch out....!! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Quote:
Some of you may have heard about the mining accident in Tasmania, Audtralia.. It was originally believed that the three remaining men who had not been rescued were dead. After 5 days down there, there seemed little hope.

Well, the sad news is that one is dead, but the good news is that the other two are alive. [they still have to dig them out, and that will take time, but they are alive and well.] Now, I can hear some of you saying 'Praise God' - Fine!

What upset me, and actually made me feel very angry, was that there were several people there, dancing for joy and singing "He is a miracle" and waving their arms around, saying how they had been praying to God and He had answered their prayers and performed a miracle and how merciful He was in saving these two men.

That is fine BUT, standing by, was the family of the man who died - with tears rolling down their faces, and yet being grateful that their two friends had been spared.

The 'praises' went on, and I felt like throwing up!

What would the parents, wife, children of the dead man be feeling? Was God only merciful to the other two, but not to their loved one?
Was this 'miracle' not for all three, and why not?
Is God selective with His mercy and miracles?
Does God play favourites?

<snip>

Will the other man's family, if they are Christians, ever get over the idea that their loved one was not included in Gods miracle, and God's mercy? I wonder what thoughts of doubt and torment are now passing through their minds? I saw their faces, and I have a pretty good idea, - and THAT'S what makes me feel sick.


Patience I completely agree with you. This made me sick too when I heard the media and people being interviewed touting this as a miracle when one precious person, somebody's husband, somebody's father is dead. That is not a miracle. If all three had lived I would concede that you have your miraculous event - go and shout it from your church roof - but to do so in the face of that grieving family is heartless and awful. Two of those men were lucky. One was not.
HI Girls...I agree with you guys - this was no miracle...It was just lucky that they had the right safety gear and it was unfourtunate that the man who passed away was not in the cage with them.

One thing I do know for sure is that these men will have a new appreciation for life when they get out of that hole.
Posted By: Anonymous Post deleted by Terrie Lynn Bittner - 05/11/06 01:04 AM
Spiritual communion takes place in total silence.
Thank you Mystic...plain and simple....

Sorry Lynn....Not quite understanding your point.....?
It was so great to see these men free dont you think?
Now everyone wants a piece of them.Even Oprah wants them on her show,I just hope they dont forget all the brave men and women who helped rescue them.They are very special people indeed.

Alexandra I love this prayer from Shantideva what do you think?

" For as long as space exists
And sentient beings endure,
May I too remain,
To dispel the misery of the world"
Engraved on my heart, Freespirit....

Nice of you to find and post it!
HI Alexandra

I am really enjoying reading about buddhism and one of the things I really like about it so far is that unlike christianity you are allowed to question it - infact it is encouraged.
For my part, nobody ever objected to my asking questions...It's just that the answers I received were not, to me, entirely satisfactory.... or I would be told I was too inquisitive, and that I was cheeky or impudent....(This normally from nuns who couldn't think of a more appropriate or satisfactory answer....) <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Buddhism almost insists that you ask questions - and keep asking them until the subject is exhausted... and sometimes, so are you....!

If ever I come across something that tangles my poor little brain-cells up, I usually put it to one side for a while (It is not always a good idea to try too hard!) or I put it to various Buddhist friends, for open debate.... and usually, we arrive at a concensus everyone agrees on.... Lively debate is a most illuminanting thing, especially in Buddhism, because you can't off-load the question and leave it as someone else's responsibility for the solution...You have to 'own' it....
Alexandra:

I didn't have a point in my previous post. It was simply a response to the sub-thread elle/patience had on the reactions of the mining families.
Thank you for clarifying, Lynn...Just curious....:)
Wow, what a great discussion!

I don't think there's enough space on this entire forum to describe my spiritual beliefs or my thoughts on a higher power...perhaps someday if I write out the huge essay that would contain all this, I can post a link to it. If any of you have a very long trip, it could provide reading material to keep you busy...

Just to jump into the conversation and Lynn's mention of spiritual communion and silence, I think Lynn's sentiments on this are beautiful, and she's not the only one to mention this...

"We need to find God, and God cannot be found in noise and restlessness. God is the friend of silence. See how nature--trees and flowers and grass--grow in silence. See the stars, the moon, and the sun, how they move in silence. The more we receive in silent prayer, the more we can give in our active life." ~ Mother Teresa

For those of you who don't believe in god, you could substitute "peace" for "god" and "meditation" for "prayer" and it still all fits....

I guess this is also why I disagree with the means of worship of many American christians...I tell you, I have visited churches that were so noisy I was frightened!
A very good friend of mine posted this comment on another forum, with regard to faith:

"The thing is to see directly. If you see then you know. If you know, there is no need for belief. This is why the Dharma is a matter of, 'Come and see.' Not, 'Come and believe.' "

I have nothing but admiration for those who wholeheartedly and faithfully put their Lives in the hands of God, i truly
do...

However, in my experience, I have met too many who purport to do so, but fail to "walk the talk"...I have had the experience of knowing some who confine and reserve their spiritual and religious devotion to one hour on a sunday morning - then come out of the church and swear like troopers, because someone has had the gall to block them into their parking space - !

And I would say this....
Where there is room for Faith in your Heart, there is room for doubt. By very virtue of the definition, faith implies putting your belief into an unknown quantity....

Like the little boy, who having walked along to the end of the wall, is preparing to leap into his daddy's arms and be caught....
There is always that moment of hesitation, because the child is summoning up the courage to literally take that Leap of Faith.... What if he DOESN'T catch me.....?

Speaking for myself, Buddhism leaves me in no such doubt. I am earnestly encouraged to question, to question and to question, again and again and again, until I am satisfied with the answers....And to date, I have never ever been let down.
That is not to say that the solutions and answers provided are always easy, palatable or agreeable. Some of the directions and guidelines provoke and awaken a great deal of denial, resistance and reluctance...But difficult though it may have been to follow through, the answers have never been wrong, or ambiguous. And they have never demanded of me that I wait and see, or just trust....
Hi Alexandra

Just come across this saying - have you heard it?

" I like your Christ,I do not like your christians,your christians are so unlike your christ"
_ Mahatma Gandhi.
Ah, gandhi....He's one of my heroes...

"Be the change that you want to see in the world."

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mohandas_gandhi.html
I love that one! But for Evil people out there they might read it in a completley different way.
Evil people don't usually read Gandhi....!! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ya true...lol <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have a question about meditation for you.What is the best way to meditate? I am trying but find it hard to clear my mind from the days events.
Don't try to clear your mind....

Your Mind is an active working tool, designed to think, calculate, evaluate and store....
The effective thing to try to achieve, is to make it work FOR you, not against you....

Sit in any way that's comfortable....relaxed but straight, on a chair, a stool, leaning against a wall....

Focus on maybe just watching your breath, as it cools your nostrils whilst you breathe in... as it makes your body expand, and touch your clothing....

And then when you breathe out, just notice the warm air on your upper lip, and your body 'collapsing' and contracting down....

Don't do a running commentary... "I can feel my breath in my nose...I can sense my body expanding...."

Just watch... as if you were slightly outside of yourself....

And if a thought pops into your head, just notice it, and dismiss it, and just go back to 'watching' your breathing....
Limit yourself to begin with, to just two or three minutes, and relax...don't be too hard on yourself... gradually increase the time... according to what you judge to be your own acceptable level...it's quality, not quantity....
I just have a few thoughts.
My vision of God also began as my "Heavenly Father" to be loved, trusted, comfortaed by, yet also feared. Through life's twists and turns I no longer believe in God. I believe in something quite different. It's an Idea. Ideas have so much power. My Idea is a 'goddess' of sorts, not physical or magical in and of itself, but an Ideal. Something I can think of, stive to become. But at the same time, there is no judgement. There is only me, doing my best. I look upon prayer as a form of thought. It helps me work through things. I make no requests, don't wait for answers. It's just me, talking things through. It's important to take that time, be it in prayer or meditation or just quiet.
I don't believe in magic, or wicca, or true gods. But I know that I don't know it all. I know that there is so much out there that will never be explained, and I can accept that.
As for disasters, and suffering...These things happen. I tell myself that, and accepting that there is no one out there that's in charge, no one watching over everyone at ever moment, is oddly comforting. Then I know that no one has it out for me. It's no one's fault. There is no blame. It's not because I didn't believe hard enough, pray hard enough, behave well enough. It's just life.
I can't believe in a god that says, "only I am right, everyone else is to be thrown into eternal fire." That's so ridiculous, you know someone powerful thought it up to keep people in line. It's like a Grimm's fairytale to keep the children from straying into the forest.
Anyway, those are just some of my stray thoughts.
I have heard more Ghandi quotes here, I love them! Now I must find more <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Welcome Diana, and thank you for your thoughts.... nice to welcome you here....

Your way of thinking runs exactly along Buddhist lines...That Life Is just What It Is, and that we need not find anything responsible, or anyone to blame for it - instead, we simply need to accept it and to temper our responses acordingly.....
This Idea, this Goddess you describe, would be what Buddhists might attempt to define as your 'Inner Buddha-Nature'...That is to say, the Natural Great Perfection present in every single Being. We recognise this Nature present in everyone, because just as the Buddha was able to expose it in himself through his enlightenment, so the opportunity resides with every human to do the same thing....

I personally would never presume to label it anything other than that which you have labelled it yourself....

...Words, at the end of it all are, at times, woefully inadequate at expressing that which we would like to communicate.... Vocabulary is merely a collection of labels and signposts....a convenient conveyance of expression...

Thanks for posting.... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
"I look upon prayer as a form of thought. It helps me work through things. I make no requests, don't wait for answers. It's just me, talking things through. It's important to take that time, be it in prayer or meditation or just quiet...I know that I don't know it all. I know that there is so much out there that will never be explained, and I can accept that."

I feel a similar way, especially about things out there that will never be explained. It is a great philosophy to live by -- just chill and let things be! It makes you wonder sometimes why people try so hard to explain it all, when they could just be accepting instead.

I'm glad to meet you...it sounds like you are confident about your unique spiritual path. Kudos!
Hello Xantres,
I feel much the same way as you do about prayer. I am reminded of a bible quote that goes like this:
"Be still, and know that I am God"

I think the secret is in the 'being still' - and then we are able to get in touch with that 'Divine Spark' which is in all of us. I think this is what brings peace.

As you so wisely say, and as Alexandra has also pointed out, it isn't about 'asking' - it is about 'BEING' and living in the NOW. I am still striving to do this, - just being still, and just 'being' and savouring every gem that each day brings. It isn't easy for me right now, as I am coping with, and working through a lot of grief, but I am discovering that this is a positive way to go.

Yes! Just'chill' and let things be!
Yes, Patience, I too love that quotation....It just resonates with 'Being Peace-Full'.....

This contribution is to nobody in particular....I'm just adding it as a point of discussion....

I know it appears to be an extremely simplistic thing to say - and I do not deny that it is "easier said than done" - but if ever you find yourself so overwhelmed by the circumstances in your life, whatever you're doing, wherever you are - just stop. Put a complete brake on what you are thinking and doing, and sense yourself completely exactly where you are, in this precise moment.
Take a deep breath.
Relax the Body completely....
This usually starts in the shoulders.... Whatever you are doing, you will invariably find that your shoulders are closer to your ears than you would like - !
Drop them....


We carry so much of our troubles around our necks...We wear them like a muffler, but they are so burdensome....
We "shoulder" our pain...
just "Let Go"....

And find yourself, Here.
Look around you....
Connect immediately with where you are, what you see and what you hear....
Empty your Mind of the Pain and sadness....

Just - Be.

Give yourself a break!

Really....If you can breathe in, and breathe out, and just observe the ridiculousness of it all.... let it go and just relax.

And after a moment, when you have given yourself the opportunity to find your Centre, to re-connect with the jewel that matters.....


.....Smile.

You are, after all, the only thing that matters.... So keep yourself precious and safe.
The rest of the world will keep turning, as it does.... day moves through to night, and then day again....

Enjoy the moment.

And then, move on.....
© BellaOnline Forums