BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Bible Basics Christians and Halloween

This time of year always brings out the "(edited)" as I like to callthem...i want everyone to know that everypost I write has a smile attached to it.

But I do have a few comments...

1. Respect is not tolerance. This is a Christian forum. A place that expresses Christian views. You don't have to agree. You can bring yourSELF to this forum and not be bashed personally. I won't do it and I won't tolerate it. I WILL tell the truth. I WILL adhere to BIBLICAL truth. Some people won't like it. But, respect is not tolerance.

2. I do not "pull things out of a book or off a website". Every article that I write has been fully researched and written by me (unless I am quoting from a book that I am reviewing) and I have been educated on my topic. Not always formally thru scholarly educational means, but certainly thru discussions and relationships with other people of other religions and belief systems. I have been told I am a very strange Christian because I don't judge others but I DO hold firmly to my beliefs. I am respected by those who are of Pagan nature, Wiccans, and even a few "Satanists" (see the post under the other forum topic "What's the Deal with Wicca").

3. Firefly - was Jesus a "happy face that loved everyone" or was He someone who changed the world by shaking things up? I don't think he was crucified because he was soo sweet and everyone just loved him...I would never bash the Catholic religion or the Pope whom I love and respect. But I challenge Catholics to read the Bible...not just the daily epistle in the pew. I was raised Catholic and had NEVER read the Bible untill I was 33 years old! There's more to it than is preached in the Catholic Mass...I know! Besides there is a Catholic site at Bella..you could check them out if you find me a little too liberal to your liking. You'll still be my sister no matter what...

This is the time of year that I am not very popular...but a lot of people seem to read what I write.... so go figure...I don't get mad...I don't get my feelings hurt..unless someone threatens my family...then you'll see some feathers fly!!!

God is love. Jesus changed the world but I do not feel he did so by being overly aggressive, I feel he had a kinder and gentler nature about himself. I have of course checked out the Catholic site. You are right, I noticed a long time ago the other religions seemed to have a better grasp of the Bible than Catholics; I still do not know why that is. The question about the Pope-years ago I became upset about a certain drawn out celebration somewhere in the southern U.S.; presented as having Catholic roots, and all I saw was an opportunity for people to get very drunk and go berserk. The police used this time to throw deserving and innocent people in jail (big moneymaker each year for the city), and the city of course makes millions from the liquor and food sales, the jail situation, and the lawyers and bailbondsmen. One big conspiracy to invite people in, let them drink themselves into oblivion and make money from it. All in the name of Catholicism. I swore to my friends I was going to write Pope John Paul II, but I never did. He had bigger fish to fry. That is where the Pope question came from. Kind of tongue in cheek. This celebration which I dislike, it perhaps did originate as a last celebration before Lent, let it all hang out kinda thing, but that was a LONG time ago. Over the years it has grown and evolved into something else, and should not be connected with its religious roots from back in the beginning. Because it no longer is that celebration. Try looking at Halloween the same way; perhaps in the beginning it was a Pagan thing; had Christianity even become known to these people? Modern Halloween does not involve carrying a turnip around or even remembering the lost souls; it is putting on a costume and getting a bunch of candy, and the kids love picking out a costume! Halloween has changed and evolved over the years, and it has Survived for a reason. Halloween is no longer a Pagan celebration, it is a day/night of the year when kids and adults both get excited. Fall is in the air, Thanksgiving and Christmas are just around the corner, and for some reason walking around in a costume is fun! The people out trick or treating are in it for the good clean fun that it is. If Samhain were another night of the year, the Pagans and Wiccans would be celebrating that other night, and their kids would still be trick or treating on Halloween night, alongside the Christian and Jewish children and their parents. It is nice to hear that you are smiling with each post you make, especially this time of the year when you post stuff that you know is going to bring negative feedback, which could mean more replies and maybe that is the point of your posts. More replies=more forum readers=successful writing? That is just a guess; you can tell I am no writer. You do not come across as liberal, kind of the opposite. People respond explaining where they come from and you don't seem to care; it is your way or the highway on this forum. Rather than discuss or debate, you just lay down Jenna's law. Listen to what other people are saying; most of them believe in a Creator; do any of us know his real name? Have you ever thought about the name Jesus? I see mostly Hispanics with this name, pronounced "Hey Zeus"! One more thing-have you read The Mists Of Avalon? Lauren wrote an article about it on the New Age site. This is a very wonderful book, written about Avalon, Camelot and King Arthur as told from the women's point of view. Full of Pagan celebrations and so forth. I am not being sarcastic here. The ending is truly beautiful and when I read it, I realized there are probably more people on the same page then we think. If you cannot bring yourself to read the book, then just check out the ending and you will understand. Even back then, God was alive and well in Avalon.

"Try looking at Halloween the same way; perhaps in the beginning it was a Pagan thing; had Christianity even become known to these people?" quoted from firefly last post...I suggest reading the whole post tho, not just this small blurb...

I can see your point, the thing is tho, Samhain IS celebrated now... and unbeknownst to some Christians, they are joining the celebration albeit innocently. Maybe with more information about the holiday, they would make a different decision...

"People respond explaining where they come from and you don't seem to care; it is your way or the highway on this forum. Rather than discuss or debate, you just lay down Jenna's law."

You are right in a way...I DO treat each post as if it stands on it's own. And maybe my responses can be viewed as cavalier towards someone elses opinion... I can accept that...but my response is really just the opposite of that...there is a lot to learn for me in each post on this forum. And I do learn things sometimes from the posters here....but I DO NOT lay down Jenna's Law...As the moderator of this forum it is my respondsibility to adhere to the rules of Bella Online and to encourage (sometimes demand) that my posters do too. So if it's anyones law in here, it's Bella's!

As for my being tolerant of others opinions in the "oh, I see, now I get it, of course you can believe whatever you want, it's all the same..." I just flat out don't think so...so I am not going to fold and say it just to be polite or politically correct....I won't call anyone names or attack them personally, but I think that this forum is big enough that I can let the differences stand on their own. My point of view will not change, but that shouldn't be the goal of any poster that comes in here, to change my point of view...I'm not going to try to change yours....every voice can be heard with in the guidelines of Bella Online...including you and me...I think these are the basics of a healthy debate, not arguing until someone gets their feelings hurt or caves on their beliefs...if there's one thing I've learned over the years of doing this it's that someone's personal beleifs can't be changed unless they change them....

You should try reading some of my other articles...you might get a better feel for who I am and where I come from as a believer in Christ...

And no, forum posts are not the source of my inspiration for articles...although sometimes they could be...lol <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jenna, just curious about where your "facts" and "information" originate. You have stated that your information is thoroughly researched, yet you have posted some obviously inaccurate and misleading information. I understand that your "christian" values dictate that "respect is not tolerance", but listing your opinions as researched objective fact is not only disrespectful of other beliefs, it is irresponsible and offensive.
Many Christians have taken the time and effort to educate themselves and can discuss their views and beliefs intelligently because of that. I realize that you feel very persecuted by those that may disagree with your beliefs and statements to the point of dismissing them as "Jenna Haters", but perhaps if you were to educate youself on the facts you could educate rather than instigate.

I'm bothered by the same thing. What I have seen, for the most part, are contradictions, hypocrisy, and incorrect information.

Research is more than cutting and pasting information from whichever website(s) agree(s) with your personal beliefs. And to responsibly research something, you have to be willing and able to look at it objectively and consider it with an open mind and from a perspective that is likely different from your own.

One can find as much misinformation about the origins of Halloween as one can the truth of its roots. What began as a celebration of the harvest in the time of the ancient Celts (LONG before the time of Christ) continues to be steeped in misinformation.

Even the term "pagan" has been misinterpreted throughout time. From the Latin "paganus," it historically was used by "city folk" to refer to country dwellers in a derogatory way (something like "country bumpkin)." So yes, Halloween has pagan roots. As does Christmas. The Christmas tree, the exchange of gifts, Santa Claus, the yule log, ivy, etc., are all pagan customs that predate Christianity... so shall we start eliminating all those Christmas customs as well????

Jenna, your unwavering faith is admirable, but trying to perpetuate this kind of misinformation is, as RevMike said, disrespectful, irresponsible, and offensive (and therefore against Bella Forum guidelines) to people who deserve to be able to make an informed decision.

Rev.Mike,

Just curious, and SO NOT trying to start anything, but are you actually a reverend? And of what denomination? (If you don't mind my asking). I myself am technically Southern Baptist, but my pastor doesn't always do things "by the book" as for as the association goes, but he definitely does things "by the Book" as he feels he is called. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well since you fundie Christians love to bash pagans and our festivals, why don't we talk about the 2000 year old lie that is Christianity. Humm? Shall we?

THERE WOULDN'T BE CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT PAUL OF TARSUS

The Christian myth is completely blamed on Paul. Without him the 2000 year old lie would never had happened. Man what would the world have been like without ol'Paul. Paul is Christianity's Mohammad.

Paul's epistles make up 7 of the Books of the Bible. Also, six more were written in Paul's name at later dates (in some cases some believe the text was written over 80 years after Paul's death). There are 13 epistles which were canonized into the Bible under the name of Paul. The authentic writings are gnostic, whereas the later pseudonymous texts are more literalist and misogynistic.

By Paul:

1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians,
Philippians, Philemon and Romans.

Pseudonymous writings in the name of Paul:

1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Ephesians, Colossians and 2
Thessalonians.

Paul was Saul
Saul of Tarsus is the man we now call Paul. Saul was a Roman, working for a Sadducee High Priest as a type of hired goon. He was likely a follower of Mithraism, which was a popular religion in the first century Roman Empire especially in Paul's home town of Tarsus.

Saul was a powerful and outspoken critic of the troublesome sect of Jews that were led by the Rabbi Yeshua Nazaret. Acts 8:3 describes Saul ridiculing and arresting the followers of Yeshua. On the way to Jerusalem it was believed that Saul was going to continue to harass the followers of Yeshua. Instead, at about the age of 30, Paul revealed himself as a convert to the Jewish sect of Yeshua and changed his name to Paul, which is the name we know him as.

Yeshua Nazaret (Joshua ben Joseph, Jesus of Nazereth)
Yeshua, a Jewish rabbi, likely a Pharisee, began a failed Jewish revolt against the Roman authorities. He wanted to institute a Jewish theocracy in Judea. He attacked the Jewish temple, because the Jewish religious hierarchy supported the Roman Empire. Yeshua also claimed to be the rightful king of Judea by divine right, as Kings were always assumed to rule by divine right.

Saul was convinced from his Mithraistic roots that the Christ would return within his lifetime. After working for such a high ranking High Priest he probably had religious aspirations for himself. Saul decided that Yeshua, (or Jesus for the Greek), was a living Christ.

Saul is likely to have admired Yeshua immensely and to feel much guilt for persecuting the cult of Yeshua despite it being part of his job. Now not only did it make theological sense to Paul to convert, but it presented a personal chance of guilt abstination and controversial fame, appealing to Paul's aspirations.

He became the holy man he desired to be and was vindicated of all the wrong he had done in persecuting Yeshua. He naturally still felt guilt, and changed his name to Paul and declared himself born again. He began actively preaching about Jesus Christ.

In Damascus Saul began to preach his new belief but the locals forced him away. He arrived at Jerusalem but the original followers of Yeshua did not trust Saul, their old enemy. Paul left Jerusalem and went to his home town, Tarsus, in Cilicia/Cesarea, in an area now called Turkey.

Paul was the original preacher of "Jesus Christ". Yeshua was not called "Jesus" nor "Christ" until Paul concluded that Yeshua had been the Messiah predicted in Scripture. Paul also added much of his own beliefs to the story of the Messiah, including many rituals and parts of the Mithraism religion. He confused the Hellenic Christ theme with the Messiah theme of Judaism, and the result was the sacrificial nature of Christ that Christianity has.

Paul opposed Jewish tradition and preached a new covenant from God that included women and Gentiles. This was an important move, allowing many new converts and followers. He gained a new life of which he could be proud. However many of his attempts to preach his new way in the synagogues were rebuked and he spent more than one stretch in prison. He travelled throughout the Mediterranean bringing the Good News to the Gentiles. Paul died in about 64CE after a two year stretch in a prison in Rome.

When the New Testament was compiled, over two hundred years later, it included many of the writings, letters and teachings of Paul, who became the first evangelist and founder of Christianity. The four gospels are written using Paul as their main source, although none of the originals of Paul's writings have survived.

By the time the New Testament was compiled, Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Paul mistook the Jewish "Messiah" to mean the Hellenistic "Christ".
This happened before anything was written down; it happened during Paul's conversations with people as he was working through what had happened. A messiah is a person who is a great leader who leads your people to freedom. The title was taken by Jews from Persian culture. A christ is a god-king who dies as an offering to some divine being as a sacrifice in return for prosperity, especially agricultural prosperity. Both are anointed with oil as a mystical, sexual rite.

And so one man's ambition changed the world. This is why I call it a 2000 year old lie. The Nazarets or Nazarenes were a Jewish sect that had many Buddhist teachings. It is known by Gnostic and Dead Sea Scroll researchers that Joshua ben Joseph travelled to India and even Tibet. This is why there is a 20 year gap in his life. He brought these Buddhist ideas back to Judea and graphed them into his form of Judaism. It is known that Jesus had a twin brother name Thomas. Thomas in Greek means Twin. Together the two brothers, who were of royal birth, were trying, through their revolution, to set them selves up as priest-kings of Judea.

Here's also where the story of Jesus gets muddled by the future Christian writers. Jesus was married to Mary Magdalen. He had to be married to be a rabbi. He had several children, and one of them, his oldest son was crucified along with him. His name comes down to us as Barrabbus.
Barrabbus translates as bar-Rabbi or son of the rabbi. The Myth of Barrabbus is in reality the other story of Jesus as militant revolutionary. I have no doubt that Jesus' son was a fighter too, and given the time frame he would have been between the ages of 16 and 19 when the "Staged" crucifiction happened.

Ya know, the thing that gets me most about Christians is that they say their all about love, when in reality, hate is their main emotion. They attack pagans saying that we are devil worshipers, yet the devil is a Christian diety. I find it facinating to note that since Fundies spend so much time hating everyone who isn't Christian and talking about SATAN, are they really praying to that evil concept?

If more Christians would spend more time READING and LEARNING, then hating and judging, this earth our mother would be a happier place.

Peace!
Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/

BellaAsthmaHost,

Yes, I am an ordained minister. I also hold 2 bachelor degrees, a master's, and a Th.D. (Doctor of Theology). I have been thoroughly educated in the Bible, Christian Apologetics, Theology, and world religion - among other subjects. I find it interesting that you question both my status and my denominational affiliation. Would those have any impact on my comments/questions?
Whether or not I agree with Jenna's beliefs is irrelevant, nor is that my point. I believe that anyone who wishes to educate- especially from a position of authority (i.e. subject matter expert/editor)- should maintain a strict ethic of presenting authentic information. There is too much judgmental commentary from self-proclaimed Christians that simply ignores fact and authentic historical data in favor of DENOMINATIONAL and PERSONAL dogma. This is fine in an individual sense, but when the line between opinion and fact is intentionally obscured it is dangerous.

Aereaus,
Your post does contain some historical fact, but many of your assertions are not matters of FACT. They are matters of conjecture and theory; some of which are well-founded, others merely educated guesses, some are unfounded opinion.

Aereaus, although some of what you assert might be based in fact, I'd be interested in knowing where your info comes from so that I could read it for myself. Also, that's a lot to expect anyone, especially a devout Christian, to absorb and accept without some sort of source to back it up. It may be deserving of discussion, but perhaps in a different thread or forum... this one is specifically about a Christian's take on celebrating (or not) Halloween.

Also, one of my biggest beefs is when folks generalize about a particular group of people. Please don't lump all Christians into one group by saying "all Christians" are mainly motivated by hate or "they all" think pagans are devil worshippers. If you don't like Christians generalizing about pagans, then don't generalize about them.

Bottom line is that if more PEOPLE would spend more time reading and learning, rather than hating and judging, the world would be an infinitely better place to live.

Rev. Mike, I'd be interested to hear your take on how Christianity has influenced the current opinion of Halloween.

Google is a good place to start. Type in Saul of Tarsus, or Jesus in India. You can also read the resent translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Holy Blood Holy Grail is another good work. Reading period sorces also contains a vast amount of knowledge of the politics, cults, and religions of the middle east during the first century CE. Read Josephus, Tacitus or any other Roman or Jewish historians. I've made this my life's work ever since I was thrown out of Sunday School because the over zealous youth pastor considered my playing Dungeons and Dragons as being Satanic. There are many books out there which go into depth on these subjects. But most people just scoff, saying it's just made up revisionist history. Remember that history is writen by the victors, but now in our internet information age, the truth can be found in some unlikely areas. Knowledge that was suppressed by the Catholic church is slowly coming to light, if your willing to dig for it.

The reason my post is appropriate is because this mentality of "Your with us or your against us" is destroying America. Christians are becoming more and more intolerant of anything or anyone they don't understand, fear or just hate, due to their differences. It is sickening to see people blindly following their ministers and political idiots like Dubja Bush.

The scary thing is, the message they are spreading is that the Rapture is coming anyway so they are destroying not only International good will, but also the delicate balance of the environment. When with this insanity end?

One nice thing is as an American who now lives in Denmark, I feel free to express my views without retaliation from the Christian Reich Thought Police.

So yes this is about Halloween and the freedom to have it, on a Sunday at night, without some fear mongering church or city council telling people they can't.

Peace!
Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/