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Posted By: BiblBasixEditor Christians and Halloween - 10/03/05 10:19 PM
It's no secret by now that I don't believe in celebrating Halloween. I think that Christians shouldn't celebrate this holiday. I am not pagan or wiccan and see no reason to celebrate Samhain in any way. I encourage other Christians to take this same stand. As Christians, we don't celebrate Hannauka (sp) or bow and pray 10 times a day to asllah, so we should not celebrate the Wiccan New Year either. Think about it....
Our pastor has taken this "holiday" and turned it into a chance to reach out to the neighborhoods.

We call it "Hallow Him" - and we have a festival at our church with games, and face paintings, and hay rides.

The kids still get to dress up, but we discourage our own church kids from dressing in anything that has to do with the "darker" side of halloween- monsters, witches, vampires, etc. Of course we can't say anything to any guests, but we just hope that our influence will "rub off". And every game that is played has a Christian theme behind it. Like musical chairs is played with Christian music.

It's a really neat alternative for the kids.
Posted By: firefly Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/05/05 04:23 AM
Halloween and Samhain are two different things on the same date, and lumping them together will just confuse people.
Posted By: magusjinx Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/05/05 05:38 AM
Isn't October 31 also "All Saints Eve"? And November 1 "All Saints Day"?
Posted By: firefly Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/06/05 02:15 AM
Yes. And 11/2 is All Souls Day, Mass is celebrated in a Catholic cemetery. Not sure if other religions observe this day or not.
Posted By: BiblBasixEditor Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/08/05 05:35 AM
Halloween is a cover up for the celebration of samhain. It's actually a euphamism for the words Hallows Eve...meaning "night of the spirits" or "night of the souls". It is the time when Pagans and Wiccans honor the souls of lost loved ones and honor the acceptance ofthem by the goddess. Harvest Festivals and other such celebrations are also ways to celebrate samhain. I think there should be no such celebration on this day for Christians. I don't celebrate Yom Kippur and I won't celebrate samhain.

I think churches that offer an alternative celebration should research it further and not give in to peer pressure. They need to stand up for Christ, not shrink back and roll over just to appease the members of the congregation. If more Christians took a stand the holiday could go back to being a Pagan and/or Wiccan holiday. The problem with churches today is that they are filled with people instead of the Lord.

Of course thats just what I think...and I also think that anything done for the Lord is good enough...
Posted By: Morigaine Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/08/05 03:51 PM
Jenna, with all due respect, your inclusion of various non-Christian religious holidays that occur at this time of year in your discussion of Halloween is neither fair nor accurate.

As Editor of the Christian forum here on Bella, you owe a duty of respect to everyone, no matter what their religion. Halloween has nothing to do with sacred religious holidays such as Hannukah or Yom Kippur, or Islam prayer practices, or any other religion for that matter. You don't have to agree at all, but respect is not negotiable.

There is so much more to every person, religion, and situation than a definition you pull out of a book or a website. Instead of labeling and judging and condemning those who don't agree with you, perhaps you might consider listening, understanding, and embracing everyone's differences, as Jesus did.

I'm going to the same place you are, Jenna... I'm just taking a different path. Namaste.
We don't look at it as rolling over to peer pressure. We see it as reaching out to the community. Invariably we have about 10 children each year that come to this program, and then will continue to come for AWANAs and COMPASS Kids (our Sunday morning program for kids).

These are kids that are going to be out on the street trick or treating anyway. (I'm not talking about our church's members kids, I'm talking about the visitors'}. If instead they come to something that is Christian based, and is STEEPED in Jesus, then why is that a bad thing?

God can use ANYTHING to His glory.
Posted By: firefly Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/09/05 01:26 AM
The fact that you obviously have blinders on is apparent in some of your posts, which means you cannot see what is going on around you. You are criticizing and insulting something a lot of Christians do. What Halloween means to me is carving jack o'lanterns and giving out candy. The children that come to my house have probably never heard of Samhain, yet you continue to lump them together. (Just for you I will ask every trick or treater this year. I already know the answer). They are two separate things (issues to you) and you cannot see it. I, as a Catholic, spend the two days following Halloween in church, since they are Holy Days to us; we honor the departed souls on November 2. Does this offend you? Have you taken this up with the Pope? We are not in Mass for two days to ask forgiveness for giving out candy to trick or treaters. Your passion to Christ is admirable but you are sending mixed signals with your posts steeped in negativity and anger. The Christianity Forum should have a Happy Face; it should be beaming with love for everyone. Where is that Love?
Whoa, I didn't mean to start a "Jump on Jenna" post. There are many Christians that feel the same way she does. And the Hallow's Eve is NOT a holiday to be celebrated by Christians. But I feel our church has tried to turn good out of bad (the opposite of what society has done to Christmas and Easter).

But I didn't see Jenna knocking the two days following Halloween at all, just Oct. 31st itself.

My personal convictions about Halloween have been changing, I never saw harm in it before. But as the years go by, and everything seems to become so much more geared towards the "Do what feels good, because tomorrow doesn't matter", I have begun to question it. So I take my children to church and as they get older we'll look together at what it is about and why our church does what it does instead. "God can use anything."
Posted By: BiblBasixEditor Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/09/05 05:46 AM
This time of year always brings out the "(edited)" as I like to callthem...i want everyone to know that everypost I write has a smile attached to it.

But I do have a few comments...

1. Respect is not tolerance. This is a Christian forum. A place that expresses Christian views. You don't have to agree. You can bring yourSELF to this forum and not be bashed personally. I won't do it and I won't tolerate it. I WILL tell the truth. I WILL adhere to BIBLICAL truth. Some people won't like it. But, respect is not tolerance.

2. I do not "pull things out of a book or off a website". Every article that I write has been fully researched and written by me (unless I am quoting from a book that I am reviewing) and I have been educated on my topic. Not always formally thru scholarly educational means, but certainly thru discussions and relationships with other people of other religions and belief systems. I have been told I am a very strange Christian because I don't judge others but I DO hold firmly to my beliefs. I am respected by those who are of Pagan nature, Wiccans, and even a few "Satanists" (see the post under the other forum topic "What's the Deal with Wicca").

3. Firefly - was Jesus a "happy face that loved everyone" or was He someone who changed the world by shaking things up? I don't think he was crucified because he was soo sweet and everyone just loved him...I would never bash the Catholic religion or the Pope whom I love and respect. But I challenge Catholics to read the Bible...not just the daily epistle in the pew. I was raised Catholic and had NEVER read the Bible untill I was 33 years old! There's more to it than is preached in the Catholic Mass...I know! Besides there is a Catholic site at Bella..you could check them out if you find me a little too liberal to your liking. You'll still be my sister no matter what...

This is the time of year that I am not very popular...but a lot of people seem to read what I write.... so go figure...I don't get mad...I don't get my feelings hurt..unless someone threatens my family...then you'll see some feathers fly!!!
Posted By: firefly Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/09/05 05:23 PM
God is love. Jesus changed the world but I do not feel he did so by being overly aggressive, I feel he had a kinder and gentler nature about himself. I have of course checked out the Catholic site. You are right, I noticed a long time ago the other religions seemed to have a better grasp of the Bible than Catholics; I still do not know why that is. The question about the Pope-years ago I became upset about a certain drawn out celebration somewhere in the southern U.S.; presented as having Catholic roots, and all I saw was an opportunity for people to get very drunk and go berserk. The police used this time to throw deserving and innocent people in jail (big moneymaker each year for the city), and the city of course makes millions from the liquor and food sales, the jail situation, and the lawyers and bailbondsmen. One big conspiracy to invite people in, let them drink themselves into oblivion and make money from it. All in the name of Catholicism. I swore to my friends I was going to write Pope John Paul II, but I never did. He had bigger fish to fry. That is where the Pope question came from. Kind of tongue in cheek. This celebration which I dislike, it perhaps did originate as a last celebration before Lent, let it all hang out kinda thing, but that was a LONG time ago. Over the years it has grown and evolved into something else, and should not be connected with its religious roots from back in the beginning. Because it no longer is that celebration. Try looking at Halloween the same way; perhaps in the beginning it was a Pagan thing; had Christianity even become known to these people? Modern Halloween does not involve carrying a turnip around or even remembering the lost souls; it is putting on a costume and getting a bunch of candy, and the kids love picking out a costume! Halloween has changed and evolved over the years, and it has Survived for a reason. Halloween is no longer a Pagan celebration, it is a day/night of the year when kids and adults both get excited. Fall is in the air, Thanksgiving and Christmas are just around the corner, and for some reason walking around in a costume is fun! The people out trick or treating are in it for the good clean fun that it is. If Samhain were another night of the year, the Pagans and Wiccans would be celebrating that other night, and their kids would still be trick or treating on Halloween night, alongside the Christian and Jewish children and their parents. It is nice to hear that you are smiling with each post you make, especially this time of the year when you post stuff that you know is going to bring negative feedback, which could mean more replies and maybe that is the point of your posts. More replies=more forum readers=successful writing? That is just a guess; you can tell I am no writer. You do not come across as liberal, kind of the opposite. People respond explaining where they come from and you don't seem to care; it is your way or the highway on this forum. Rather than discuss or debate, you just lay down Jenna's law. Listen to what other people are saying; most of them believe in a Creator; do any of us know his real name? Have you ever thought about the name Jesus? I see mostly Hispanics with this name, pronounced "Hey Zeus"! One more thing-have you read The Mists Of Avalon? Lauren wrote an article about it on the New Age site. This is a very wonderful book, written about Avalon, Camelot and King Arthur as told from the women's point of view. Full of Pagan celebrations and so forth. I am not being sarcastic here. The ending is truly beautiful and when I read it, I realized there are probably more people on the same page then we think. If you cannot bring yourself to read the book, then just check out the ending and you will understand. Even back then, God was alive and well in Avalon.
Posted By: BiblBasixEditor Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/09/05 10:45 PM
"Try looking at Halloween the same way; perhaps in the beginning it was a Pagan thing; had Christianity even become known to these people?" quoted from firefly last post...I suggest reading the whole post tho, not just this small blurb...

I can see your point, the thing is tho, Samhain IS celebrated now... and unbeknownst to some Christians, they are joining the celebration albeit innocently. Maybe with more information about the holiday, they would make a different decision...

"People respond explaining where they come from and you don't seem to care; it is your way or the highway on this forum. Rather than discuss or debate, you just lay down Jenna's law."

You are right in a way...I DO treat each post as if it stands on it's own. And maybe my responses can be viewed as cavalier towards someone elses opinion... I can accept that...but my response is really just the opposite of that...there is a lot to learn for me in each post on this forum. And I do learn things sometimes from the posters here....but I DO NOT lay down Jenna's Law...As the moderator of this forum it is my respondsibility to adhere to the rules of Bella Online and to encourage (sometimes demand) that my posters do too. So if it's anyones law in here, it's Bella's!

As for my being tolerant of others opinions in the "oh, I see, now I get it, of course you can believe whatever you want, it's all the same..." I just flat out don't think so...so I am not going to fold and say it just to be polite or politically correct....I won't call anyone names or attack them personally, but I think that this forum is big enough that I can let the differences stand on their own. My point of view will not change, but that shouldn't be the goal of any poster that comes in here, to change my point of view...I'm not going to try to change yours....every voice can be heard with in the guidelines of Bella Online...including you and me...I think these are the basics of a healthy debate, not arguing until someone gets their feelings hurt or caves on their beliefs...if there's one thing I've learned over the years of doing this it's that someone's personal beleifs can't be changed unless they change them....

You should try reading some of my other articles...you might get a better feel for who I am and where I come from as a believer in Christ...

And no, forum posts are not the source of my inspiration for articles...although sometimes they could be...lol <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RevMike Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/10/05 09:16 PM
Jenna, just curious about where your "facts" and "information" originate. You have stated that your information is thoroughly researched, yet you have posted some obviously inaccurate and misleading information. I understand that your "christian" values dictate that "respect is not tolerance", but listing your opinions as researched objective fact is not only disrespectful of other beliefs, it is irresponsible and offensive.
Many Christians have taken the time and effort to educate themselves and can discuss their views and beliefs intelligently because of that. I realize that you feel very persecuted by those that may disagree with your beliefs and statements to the point of dismissing them as "Jenna Haters", but perhaps if you were to educate youself on the facts you could educate rather than instigate.
Posted By: Morigaine Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/11/05 01:04 AM
I'm bothered by the same thing. What I have seen, for the most part, are contradictions, hypocrisy, and incorrect information.

Research is more than cutting and pasting information from whichever website(s) agree(s) with your personal beliefs. And to responsibly research something, you have to be willing and able to look at it objectively and consider it with an open mind and from a perspective that is likely different from your own.

One can find as much misinformation about the origins of Halloween as one can the truth of its roots. What began as a celebration of the harvest in the time of the ancient Celts (LONG before the time of Christ) continues to be steeped in misinformation.

Even the term "pagan" has been misinterpreted throughout time. From the Latin "paganus," it historically was used by "city folk" to refer to country dwellers in a derogatory way (something like "country bumpkin)." So yes, Halloween has pagan roots. As does Christmas. The Christmas tree, the exchange of gifts, Santa Claus, the yule log, ivy, etc., are all pagan customs that predate Christianity... so shall we start eliminating all those Christmas customs as well????

Jenna, your unwavering faith is admirable, but trying to perpetuate this kind of misinformation is, as RevMike said, disrespectful, irresponsible, and offensive (and therefore against Bella Forum guidelines) to people who deserve to be able to make an informed decision.
Rev.Mike,

Just curious, and SO NOT trying to start anything, but are you actually a reverend? And of what denomination? (If you don't mind my asking). I myself am technically Southern Baptist, but my pastor doesn't always do things "by the book" as for as the association goes, but he definitely does things "by the Book" as he feels he is called. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/11/05 04:09 AM
Well since you fundie Christians love to bash pagans and our festivals, why don't we talk about the 2000 year old lie that is Christianity. Humm? Shall we?

THERE WOULDN'T BE CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT PAUL OF TARSUS

The Christian myth is completely blamed on Paul. Without him the 2000 year old lie would never had happened. Man what would the world have been like without ol'Paul. Paul is Christianity's Mohammad.

Paul's epistles make up 7 of the Books of the Bible. Also, six more were written in Paul's name at later dates (in some cases some believe the text was written over 80 years after Paul's death). There are 13 epistles which were canonized into the Bible under the name of Paul. The authentic writings are gnostic, whereas the later pseudonymous texts are more literalist and misogynistic.

By Paul:

1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians,
Philippians, Philemon and Romans.

Pseudonymous writings in the name of Paul:

1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Ephesians, Colossians and 2
Thessalonians.

Paul was Saul
Saul of Tarsus is the man we now call Paul. Saul was a Roman, working for a Sadducee High Priest as a type of hired goon. He was likely a follower of Mithraism, which was a popular religion in the first century Roman Empire especially in Paul's home town of Tarsus.

Saul was a powerful and outspoken critic of the troublesome sect of Jews that were led by the Rabbi Yeshua Nazaret. Acts 8:3 describes Saul ridiculing and arresting the followers of Yeshua. On the way to Jerusalem it was believed that Saul was going to continue to harass the followers of Yeshua. Instead, at about the age of 30, Paul revealed himself as a convert to the Jewish sect of Yeshua and changed his name to Paul, which is the name we know him as.

Yeshua Nazaret (Joshua ben Joseph, Jesus of Nazereth)
Yeshua, a Jewish rabbi, likely a Pharisee, began a failed Jewish revolt against the Roman authorities. He wanted to institute a Jewish theocracy in Judea. He attacked the Jewish temple, because the Jewish religious hierarchy supported the Roman Empire. Yeshua also claimed to be the rightful king of Judea by divine right, as Kings were always assumed to rule by divine right.

Saul was convinced from his Mithraistic roots that the Christ would return within his lifetime. After working for such a high ranking High Priest he probably had religious aspirations for himself. Saul decided that Yeshua, (or Jesus for the Greek), was a living Christ.

Saul is likely to have admired Yeshua immensely and to feel much guilt for persecuting the cult of Yeshua despite it being part of his job. Now not only did it make theological sense to Paul to convert, but it presented a personal chance of guilt abstination and controversial fame, appealing to Paul's aspirations.

He became the holy man he desired to be and was vindicated of all the wrong he had done in persecuting Yeshua. He naturally still felt guilt, and changed his name to Paul and declared himself born again. He began actively preaching about Jesus Christ.

In Damascus Saul began to preach his new belief but the locals forced him away. He arrived at Jerusalem but the original followers of Yeshua did not trust Saul, their old enemy. Paul left Jerusalem and went to his home town, Tarsus, in Cilicia/Cesarea, in an area now called Turkey.

Paul was the original preacher of "Jesus Christ". Yeshua was not called "Jesus" nor "Christ" until Paul concluded that Yeshua had been the Messiah predicted in Scripture. Paul also added much of his own beliefs to the story of the Messiah, including many rituals and parts of the Mithraism religion. He confused the Hellenic Christ theme with the Messiah theme of Judaism, and the result was the sacrificial nature of Christ that Christianity has.

Paul opposed Jewish tradition and preached a new covenant from God that included women and Gentiles. This was an important move, allowing many new converts and followers. He gained a new life of which he could be proud. However many of his attempts to preach his new way in the synagogues were rebuked and he spent more than one stretch in prison. He travelled throughout the Mediterranean bringing the Good News to the Gentiles. Paul died in about 64CE after a two year stretch in a prison in Rome.

When the New Testament was compiled, over two hundred years later, it included many of the writings, letters and teachings of Paul, who became the first evangelist and founder of Christianity. The four gospels are written using Paul as their main source, although none of the originals of Paul's writings have survived.

By the time the New Testament was compiled, Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Paul mistook the Jewish "Messiah" to mean the Hellenistic "Christ".
This happened before anything was written down; it happened during Paul's conversations with people as he was working through what had happened. A messiah is a person who is a great leader who leads your people to freedom. The title was taken by Jews from Persian culture. A christ is a god-king who dies as an offering to some divine being as a sacrifice in return for prosperity, especially agricultural prosperity. Both are anointed with oil as a mystical, sexual rite.

And so one man's ambition changed the world. This is why I call it a 2000 year old lie. The Nazarets or Nazarenes were a Jewish sect that had many Buddhist teachings. It is known by Gnostic and Dead Sea Scroll researchers that Joshua ben Joseph travelled to India and even Tibet. This is why there is a 20 year gap in his life. He brought these Buddhist ideas back to Judea and graphed them into his form of Judaism. It is known that Jesus had a twin brother name Thomas. Thomas in Greek means Twin. Together the two brothers, who were of royal birth, were trying, through their revolution, to set them selves up as priest-kings of Judea.

Here's also where the story of Jesus gets muddled by the future Christian writers. Jesus was married to Mary Magdalen. He had to be married to be a rabbi. He had several children, and one of them, his oldest son was crucified along with him. His name comes down to us as Barrabbus.
Barrabbus translates as bar-Rabbi or son of the rabbi. The Myth of Barrabbus is in reality the other story of Jesus as militant revolutionary. I have no doubt that Jesus' son was a fighter too, and given the time frame he would have been between the ages of 16 and 19 when the "Staged" crucifiction happened.

Ya know, the thing that gets me most about Christians is that they say their all about love, when in reality, hate is their main emotion. They attack pagans saying that we are devil worshipers, yet the devil is a Christian diety. I find it facinating to note that since Fundies spend so much time hating everyone who isn't Christian and talking about SATAN, are they really praying to that evil concept?

If more Christians would spend more time READING and LEARNING, then hating and judging, this earth our mother would be a happier place.

Peace!
Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/
Posted By: RevMike Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/11/05 02:25 PM
BellaAsthmaHost,

Yes, I am an ordained minister. I also hold 2 bachelor degrees, a master's, and a Th.D. (Doctor of Theology). I have been thoroughly educated in the Bible, Christian Apologetics, Theology, and world religion - among other subjects. I find it interesting that you question both my status and my denominational affiliation. Would those have any impact on my comments/questions?
Whether or not I agree with Jenna's beliefs is irrelevant, nor is that my point. I believe that anyone who wishes to educate- especially from a position of authority (i.e. subject matter expert/editor)- should maintain a strict ethic of presenting authentic information. There is too much judgmental commentary from self-proclaimed Christians that simply ignores fact and authentic historical data in favor of DENOMINATIONAL and PERSONAL dogma. This is fine in an individual sense, but when the line between opinion and fact is intentionally obscured it is dangerous.

Aereaus,
Your post does contain some historical fact, but many of your assertions are not matters of FACT. They are matters of conjecture and theory; some of which are well-founded, others merely educated guesses, some are unfounded opinion.
Posted By: Morigaine Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/11/05 03:50 PM
Aereaus, although some of what you assert might be based in fact, I'd be interested in knowing where your info comes from so that I could read it for myself. Also, that's a lot to expect anyone, especially a devout Christian, to absorb and accept without some sort of source to back it up. It may be deserving of discussion, but perhaps in a different thread or forum... this one is specifically about a Christian's take on celebrating (or not) Halloween.

Also, one of my biggest beefs is when folks generalize about a particular group of people. Please don't lump all Christians into one group by saying "all Christians" are mainly motivated by hate or "they all" think pagans are devil worshippers. If you don't like Christians generalizing about pagans, then don't generalize about them.

Bottom line is that if more PEOPLE would spend more time reading and learning, rather than hating and judging, the world would be an infinitely better place to live.

Rev. Mike, I'd be interested to hear your take on how Christianity has influenced the current opinion of Halloween.
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/11/05 04:42 PM
Google is a good place to start. Type in Saul of Tarsus, or Jesus in India. You can also read the resent translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Holy Blood Holy Grail is another good work. Reading period sorces also contains a vast amount of knowledge of the politics, cults, and religions of the middle east during the first century CE. Read Josephus, Tacitus or any other Roman or Jewish historians. I've made this my life's work ever since I was thrown out of Sunday School because the over zealous youth pastor considered my playing Dungeons and Dragons as being Satanic. There are many books out there which go into depth on these subjects. But most people just scoff, saying it's just made up revisionist history. Remember that history is writen by the victors, but now in our internet information age, the truth can be found in some unlikely areas. Knowledge that was suppressed by the Catholic church is slowly coming to light, if your willing to dig for it.

The reason my post is appropriate is because this mentality of "Your with us or your against us" is destroying America. Christians are becoming more and more intolerant of anything or anyone they don't understand, fear or just hate, due to their differences. It is sickening to see people blindly following their ministers and political idiots like Dubja Bush.

The scary thing is, the message they are spreading is that the Rapture is coming anyway so they are destroying not only International good will, but also the delicate balance of the environment. When with this insanity end?

One nice thing is as an American who now lives in Denmark, I feel free to express my views without retaliation from the Christian Reich Thought Police.

So yes this is about Halloween and the freedom to have it, on a Sunday at night, without some fear mongering church or city council telling people they can't.

Peace!
Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/
No sir, that's why I said, I wasn't trying to start anything, I was truly just curious! (Not many people would post with a REV in front of their name). My user name used to be musicalmom- it described me much better then BellaAstmaHost - because it described the parts of me, but now that I'm an editor, I use the "asthma" name so people will know about my site, and know who I am within Bella.

So I was just curious as to who you were.
Posted By: RevMike Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/11/05 09:42 PM
BellaAsthmaHost,

Ah, the vagaries of the internet forum.

I assure you that I took no offense and I did not mean to appear defensive. In re-reading my response I can see how I may have given that impression. I apologize for that. Unfortunately, I misunderstood your purpose in posing your questions. I wrongly assumed that your intent was to dismiss my original criticism because you believed that I did not share Jenna's beliefs.
Posted By: BiblBasixEditor Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 12:19 AM
Rev Mike,

I can see your point in that I am not as formally educated as you are and so there for can't possibly know as much as you do...I said researched, not "objective"...I'm not a journalist (chuckle)..I am a writer. I write from my perspective and mine alone...

"Many Christians have taken the time and effort to educate themselves and can discuss their views and beliefs intelligently because of that." quoted from RevMike

I suppose you mean by "Many Christians" you also mean you? I write from my perspective. I spend time in the Word with the Lord everyday and write from my heart. I write to other believers in Christ and to those who may not believe. Every article is mine and I stand by it...it's personally written and theres a part of me in each one. I'm not offended, just pointing out what you are too "humble" to acknowledge...that you think you are better equipped to do what I am doing...what the Lord gave to me...a small place from which I can pass on what He has shown me in my spirit.

Why don't you write something if you think that what I have written is so ineffectual...I feature writings from other writers sometimes and I would be happy to feature it for you here at Bella.

Morigaine,
Concerning the following quote...

"Research is more than cutting and pasting information from whichever website(s) agree(s) with your personal beliefs. And to responsibly research something, you have to be willing and able to look at it objectively and consider it with an open mind and from a perspective that is likely different from your own." quoted from Morgaine

I am not a plagarist, if that is what you are implying...

As for your explaination of responsible research; I have researched and looked at the information from many different places...books,web info,PEOPLE, history...and have made my conclusions taking into consideration who I am and what I beleive, where the article will be published (what site etc), and who will be readng it. I dismiss some info as being too detailed and too hard to understand..then I write an article for the web and I reread it and then I rearrange it...then I have someone else read it..then I post it. While doing all this I do alot of praying...I want only that which the Lord wants me to publish to be published..not for me but for HIm. I don't get paid for this, I don't make anything for it...and I think you need to understand that discussion is OK... and that nothing in this forum has interrupted Bella's Forum standards in any way. This is the Christianity forum and Christian values are discussed and defended here. If someone (you) is offended there are other forums that might be more agreeable...I am in NO WAY asking you to leave...I just want you to be clear about Bella Online standards...You are welcome as well as your views...

Everyone,
As for the comment I made concerning wehat I laughingly referred to as "(edited)" I mean stuff like the following...an Part of an email that was sent by someone who obviously doesn't agree with what I wrote, (edited)
"You are the most relpulsive human being ever on the face of the earth."

This is the kind of stuff that I call "(edited)" (edited)

It's like last year when my article was stolen and posted on WitchVox.com and I had no idea!...all of a sudden my email was bombarded with email just like the one above...I even recieved a few death threats which I immediatly reported to the authorities. I wouldn't have baulked at WitchVox posting my article for discussion and review on their site, but I would have asked them not to include my email... But in pure Holy Spirit style, that experience brought me some of my best and most trusted Pagan and Wiccan resources. I learned so much from the true people I met there... But I am still me. I didn't change my beliefs (like I stated in a previous post), they didn't change theirs and they still communicate with me knowing what kind of "twist" I put on the information the give me. I consider myself to be very blessed to have been given the opportunity to reach out...even if I have to dodge a few bullets now and then.:)
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 08:09 AM
Jenna wrote:

"This is the kind of stuff that I call "Jenna Haters" people who attack me personally instead of airing their opposing views somewhere where they can actually recieve my attention and express their feelings and personal beliefs...

It's like last year when my article was stolen and posted on WitchVox.com and I had no idea!...all of a sudden my email was bombarded with email just like the one above...I even recieved a few death threats which I immediatly reported to the authorities. I wouldn't have baulked at WitchVox posting my article for discussion and review on their site, but I would have asked them not to include my email... But in pure Holy Spirit style, that experience brought me some of my best and most trusted Pagan and Wiccan resources. I learned so much from the true people I met there... But I am still me. I didn't change my beliefs (like I stated in a previous post), they didn't change theirs and they still communicate with me knowing what kind of "twist" I put on the information the give me. I consider myself to be very blessed to have been given the opportunity to reach out...even if I have to dodge a few bullets now and then."


I need to clarify some things for your readers so that they do not misjudge your detractors. First off WitchVox (http://www.witchvox.com/) doesn't steal articles. Articles found on the web through news searches like Google News and are submited by members to the site. Then if Wren Walker at the Vox finds them interresting, she will post a paragraph or two of the article and a link to said article.

You should be happy to know that between 3 and 10 thousand people read the articles on the Vox on a daily basis. So more people are reading you.

I personally found your article through a Google News search. I do this every morning for my Yahoo group and Blog. I think that Bella Online has a deal with Google so if you put the word "Pagan" or "Wicca" in your article it will come up on a search.

About WitchVox including your email...well they didn't. That was found on Bella's website not WitchVox. I wonder why you wish to blame them? I guess for the same reason Xtians have blamed Witches for centuries. Things like crop failure, solar eclipes, infidelity of husbands and priests, that sort of thing.

I am sorry that you recieved death threats...As we all know there are crazy people in every religion, like those who kill doctors and nurses at abortion clinics.

I hope you don't mind having me monitor this board. I guess you could call me the "Devil's Advocate".

Brightest Blessings! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/
Hi Arius,
One thing I don't understand from your various postings is this; you are obviously (or at least to me) hostile towards Jenna. Your tone and your words seem often disdainful of her, yet you always sign off with "Peace" or this last time "Brightest Blessing". Why?

That's kind of like screaming at a child and then going "there's a good boy" and giving hm a pat on the head.
It just doesn't seem to fit.

Jenna chooses not to celebrate Halloween at all - that's her choice.
I choose to celebrate with a festival held at my church that we've turned around to exalt Jesus Christ - that's my choice.
Friends of mine (who are Christian) let their kids go trick or treating, and decorate their house with pumpkins (but they don't worship the devil)- that's their choice.
I'm assuming you celebrate Halloween in its more original sense- that's your choice (I don't happen to like your choice, but I'm not going to interfere with it.)

At this point anything I say or do is going to have little or no impact on you, so I'll pray. I'll pray that maybe somewhere down the road God has someone that will be able to reach your heart better than I or Jenna can, because I think our relationship is a bit too antagonistic. And I am sorry for that, because I hate the fact when I can't be friendly with someone.
Posted By: RevMike Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 02:35 PM
The "quick reply" is not working. I just lost my entire original reply. When I clicked "continue" it showed "current form is no longer valid". Please, no comments about Divine Intervention <img src="/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: RevMike Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 03:09 PM
Jenna,

You've given me a lot to tackle here, I hope I can do it coherently.

My formal education notwithstanding, I take exception to your statement of certain historical data as fact when it most certainly is not. I understand that you write from a personal perspective, but empirical fact is not subject to interpretation. As a writer (as opposed to journalist - per your characterization) you clearly state your personal beliefs, but, when you try to support your position by using historical data, you owe your audience the respect of being as accurate as possible. You claim that it is not possible to know as much as I, and I have to disagree with that statement. You did some "research", but you have to utilize empirical sources, not just those that share your views.
I'm also a bit perplexed by your "if you think you could do better, then do it" (paraphrased) response. I never implied that I could do better, I SAID that YOU could do better.
When you are in a position to teach - and you are - you should take that role seriously. If you believe that you are not in this position by accident, then respect in your own faith should drive you to be as brutally honest as possible.
By "many Christians" I meant many other Christians with whom I've discussed many issues. I did not refer to myself, and, despite your accusation of false humility on my part, was not placing myself above you. I am of a different flavor of Christianity than yourself, and would never presume that I had any right or reason to insult you in that way.
Please understand, I was criticizing your "facts" not your beliefs. I respect your beliefs, but respect is not tolerance and I occasionally find an opportunity to impart what I hope is constructive criticism. You should believe as you feel you are led to believe in you heart/spirit. Merely getting the facts straight poses no threat to that.

That's it for my rambling. I'm sorry it's so sloppy, but I'm pressed for time.
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 05:29 PM
Hi Michelle,

The reason why I have responded in the way that I have, is the same reason I came to this forum in the first place. Jenna in her position as an Editor at Bella Online is using hate speech against my faith.

She writes:

"Halloween is an occasion when the ancient gods (actually demons) were worshiped with sacrifices by the ancient Druids." (False)

"Beloved, it is my opinion that Halloween is not for Christians. You may pretend that it's a harmless game for kids, but in reality it represents paganism, Satanism, idolatry, witchcraft, and naturalism!" (This ones funny, Naturalism was a Literary Movement in Western Literature during the 1860's-80's, and has nothing to do with Wicca.)

"Did you know that October 31st is considered by Satanists to be one of their most important days of the year? It is the Wiccan New Year, the time of year when the supposed goddess gives birth to the god who also becomes her mate.... Beloved, WAKE UP! Don't honor the Devil!"

There she goes lumping us with Devil Worshipers. This is hate speech pure and simple. I do belive that hate speech is illegal in the US as well as here in Denmark.

The Devil is a Jewish, Muslim and Christian Deity. Wicca does not believe in this concept yet Christains like Jenna continue to associate their concept of evil with my faith. This is wrong, and Bella Online should tell her that using hate speech is against the law. I wonder if I should contact Bella Online a lodge a complaint. I think I will.

I am upset that she herself has not responded to my posts. Is she afraid that my knowledge of her church's history will show the lies and hate she is expressing?

I wonder...

I will continue to monitor her articles and her posts on this board.

I thank you for your prayers Michelle and you will be in mine. I pray for all America that it doesn't fall into a blinded Theocracy, ruled a NeoCon elite, which is neither Right nor Christian.

May the Goddess bless you.
Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 05:49 PM
Hi again!

I just found this on Bella Online:

You further agree not to use BELLA to send or post on message boards or any place on BELLA, any message or material that is unlawful, harassing, libelous, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harmful, vulgar, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, racially offensive, inaccurate, or otherwise objectionable material of any kind or nature or that encourages conduct that could constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any applicable local, state, national or international law or regulation, or encourage the use of controlled substances. BellaOnline.com reserves the right to delete any such material from BELLA. BellaOnline.com will cooperate fully with any law enforcement officials and/or agencies in the investigation of any person or persons who violate the Terms of Service contained in this Section 6.

I believe her article has breached those Terms of Service.

Blessings!

Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/
Posted By: RevMike Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 06:37 PM
Aereaus,

(Yes, I do have too much time on my hands this week)

Anyway, I don't feel that it's fair to characterize Jenna's writing as "hate speech". I also believe that it is very dangerous for you to imply that it borders on anything that is illegal. Any forum that allows for the exchange of subjective opinion will undoubtedly ruffle some feathers, but you can be constructive in how you phrase your disagreements. By the way, I believe Jenna was referring to "Naturism", and I think that you are aware of that as well. Skip the opportunity to bash and use it as an opportunity to educate. Being too literal will only serve to cloud your own points.
I know that Jenna is perfectly capable of defending herself, and I'm not trying to step on any toes here. I just want to be even-handed in expressing my opinions regarding the use of fact to support beliefs.
Categorizing your beliefs with Satanism is not hate speech - it's incorrect, but not hate. You do the same when you lump Christians, fundies and neocons into the same group; it's wrong, but it's not hate.
When Jenna starts advocating public pagan-burnings, then you might start worring/when you start calling for human sacrifices then we will start worrying.
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 08:22 PM
Greetings RevMike,

You say it's not hate, but I and my wife have experienced it first hand. Both of us lost jobs after co-workers found out we were "Witches".

It is hate speech. Do you know what the Roman thought about the early Christians? First off they held services in bural chambers, they ate the flesh and drank the blood of their god...the Romans thought they were cannibals and vampires. Is Jenna doing any different. She's spreading lies about something she fears and misunderstands.

I have a masters in Sociology and Comparative Religion. I maintain a "Pagan" calender on my blog where I examine the holidays of many religions both ancient and modern. I just want the insanity of Christian Fundimentalism to end.

You tell me to use my time constructively to educate. I do. I invite all of you to take a look at my blog.

Peace!
Arius

PS. RevMike. Being a learned man you may know of where I got my online name. Arius refers to the Arius of the Arian Heresy. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/
Posted By: RevMike Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 09:15 PM
Quote:

PS. RevMike. Being a learned man you may know of where I got my online name. Arius refers to the Arius of the Arian Heresy.


Interesting, considering that Arius' and Eusebius' "heresy" was in direct contention with the pagan-influenced homo ousion trinity concept.
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/13/05 10:18 PM
True.

But we are alike in that we don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. Jesus was the Son of Man not the Son of God. But I believe that God, Gods or the Goddess is in all of us as that "force" is in all things.

Ya never know I may have been him in a past life. LOL In reality I just liked the name. I got it from the movie Ben Hur when I was 14 and it became my SCA name and later my email address. It just stuck. Then in college I learned of the Arius of Alexandria, and thought it amusing.
Arius,

Jenna's original message was a call to us Christians not to celebrate Halloween.

I don't believe she meant to get anything started on a multi-religious basis, hence the title "Christians and Halloween."

Of course, as you can see, even we Christians have disagreements. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It does not mean we are posting messages of hate. I know that I often get a little overzealous when standing up for my beliefs, and it backfires on me sometimes!
"If all people lived
showing kindness and care
we would not be discussing
how to get there.
In the dimness of light
before the rising sun
all peoples of earth
are viewed as one.
And in the setting of the sun
we again become a family of One."

Susan
That's beautiful Susan. <img src="/images/graemlins/music.gif" alt="" /> to my ears.
Posted By: Morigaine Re: Showing kindness and care with all - 10/16/05 12:39 PM
Ahhh, that was lovely, Susan. Thank you!
Posted By: Lady J Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/16/05 06:40 PM
Jenna,

I respect you. I want you to know that from the beginning. But I feel it necessary to also state some of my own interpretation and opinion about your piece.

-- When one has a very strong faith, they will be misunderstood at times. But this misunderstanding can also be caused by the person themselves. The old adage that one cannot see the forest for the trees applies. I think you did lump other faiths together and made statements which might not actually be seen as truthful or well-versed. Because something follows on the same day, does not mean it is inter-related. It is merely a coincidence. Halloween happens around the same time other faiths have celebrations. Currently, Halloween is seen as a harvest celebration where people dress as they wouldn't in the regular year, take their kids out for a little fun, and just have fun themselves. Why people can't see what it is about I don't know. But we as humans must always look for the deeper meaning of something, and sometimes a little too much. I am Jewish. I celebrate Halloween as a time to have some fun. It is boring this time of the year, and so people need a little stress relief. Dressing up and going house to house or having a party are a way to do this. I am not honoring the dead, to epitify Samhain, or some other pagan festival. I am just having fun and leave it at that.

-- You write your articles from YOUR perspective. one must always realize there is going to be someone out there who disagrees with us. You know from other posts that I have made that this is true. Many Christians believe that Katrina was sent down to destroy the wickedness of New Orleans and more specifically those "queers" who were getting ready to have their abomination celebration (Southern Decadence). This is their belief, and while I might not agree with it and wrote stating such, does not mean that their belief isn't valid. I cannot tell someone else what they believe is not valid, even if it borders on the asinine and absurd. But just because they don't agree, doesn't mean they hate you. I know you and I have disagreed and I definately don't hate you, and you have told me the same thing. We have had wonderful conversations which I appreciate.

-- with respect to one of your posts "As for the comment I made concerning what I laughingly referred to as "Jenna Haters" I mean stuff like the following...an Part of an email that was sent by someone who obviously doesn't agree with what I wrote, but was too cowardly to post it in a public forum...they were even too cowardly to leave their name..." I would like to say the following: Someone who doesn�t post to your forum is not cowardly. They felt a personal response to you was warranted and didn't feel the need to post it on your forum. Does this make them cowardly.. no. Respect them for at least writing you. Your article sparked enough of an interest whether positive or negative, to get them to respond. KOODOS! But refrain from calling them names or passing judgment on a public forum where they obviously do not feel comfortable to respond. So he/she didn't sign their name, doesn't make them cowardly. Cowardly would be the person who would complain to their family/friends and not write anything to you at all. One should refrain from name-calling and being overly judgmental to the people who write. Appreciate the fact they took the time. Even to my haters (being the gay editor does come with them) I always send them an email back thanking them for their opinion, and while I disagree, their opinion is appreciated. Kill em with kindness my Bible teacher in college always said. One of the most important lessons I learned while studying Christian Divinity (yep a Jew who studied Christians) was that we need to not judge others for they may be ignorant to your views, and through education and understanding, they may become your best ally.

Ha-Shem's blessings to you!

Jase ;0)

PS.. this wasn't a Jenna Bashing.. it was my opinion and is not meant to be a slap at Jenna. I love many of the things she writes, and I disagree with others. She is a fine woman, and a wonderful Editor. It's hard to sometimes defend your faith when others don't see where you are coming from, and Jenna does a good job at that. There is always going to be topics that are "Hot-button" issues and this is one of them. Remember, this is Jenna's opinion and she is ENTITLED to it no matter if someone disagrees!
Posted By: tom2492002 Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/16/05 07:04 PM
You know,
I know this woman personally...you've all got it wrong...you think you know someone because of the things she writes or the comments made in DEFENSE of herself here in this forum....let me tell you

She is the most generous, the most thoughtful the kindest person I know. I am lucky she is someone I know. Yeah, she's a hard core Christian, but from what I've seen this has made her a better friened and a better parent and a better woman. Her relationship with Jesus Christ is unlike anything I've ever seen.

I have had my disagreements with her, ones that I was sure were going to end the friendship, (after all she can be extremely passionate about her beliefs) but in the end she has never stopped being my friend. She has stood beside me and told me that it doesn't matter what happens, she will never forsake our friendship because the Lord has never forsaken her...even when she was sure he would.

So lighten up!! None of you know her the way I do! So what if your Pagan or Wiccan, if you met Jenna on the job and she found out you were Wiccan, sounds like she would have been the ONLY friend you would have had there!!! THAT'S the way she is!! Stop misjuging her...don't tell her "juge not lest ye be judged" turn that on your self...and just shut it!!!

**I just saw this post...this is my husband...:x thanx honey!...edited by Jenna Robinson Editor Bible Basics 10/18/05
Posted By: BellaDeb Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/16/05 07:32 PM
Christmas is celebrated on the same day as the ancient Roman celebration "Sol Invictus", and the Roman feast of Saturnalia was also in December. The date (Dec. 25) was chosen in the 4th century as a Christian substitute for these pagan winter solstice celebrations.

Even Christmas trees have pagan roots. (Pun intended!)

So, isn't this similar to the Halloween issue (sans the spooky costumes?)

There are many "similarities" between Christianity and paganism - including baptism, Easter, and many, many more.

If Christians are going to toss out all pagan influences, they have a very long way to go.
Posted By: Aereaus Re: Christians and Halloween - 10/16/05 07:45 PM
She maybe the greatest person in the world. It still doesn't give her the right to spread hate and bigotry. That's not the Pagan or Wiccan way and as far as I remember it's not the Christian way either. But times sure have changed since 9/11, so I guess we'll see.

Arius

http://thepaganleft.blogspot.com/
Posted By: matthew24 Re: Christians and Halloween - 01/16/06 04:30 AM
You are correct, read this:

Just Say No !!!
To the devil tricks, trap and deception of lies !!

History Starts Back To The Satanic Druids Witch's Cult [ halloween ]
1. The ancient Druids believed that on this particular night, the souls of the dead returned to their former homes to be entertained by the living. If acceptable food and shelter wer not provided, supposeinly these evil spirits would cast spells, and cause havoc and terror to haunt and torment the living. They demanded to be appeased. Look closely! here is the beginning of the word "trick or treat!" Evil spirits of satan demanding a "treat" to get rid of them, or you got a "trick" which represents a witch's spell.

Uh Oh ! One of the Churches Picked Up The Pagen Satanic Rites
Then one of the Churches picked up the tradion of evil holiday and renamed it to "Halloween". The practices are Roman Catholic and Pagan in origin. From the Encyclopedia Britannica: "In its strictly religious aspect, this occasion is known as the vigil of Hallowmas of All Saint's Day, Nov. 1, observed by the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches. Pope Gregory III (731 to 741 AD) assigned this date for celebrating of the feast when he consecrated a chapel in Saint Peter's basilica to all the saints. Gregory the IV extended the feast to the entire church (Roman Catholic ) in 834 AD" "There is little doubt that the Christian Roman Catholic Church sought to eliminate or supplant the Druid festival of the dead by introducing the alternative observance of All Saint's Day on Nov. 1."
God In His Word (BIBLE) Condemns Such Pagan Practices Of Evil
1. Christians should have no part of anything that celebrates a pagan celebration of Halloween and the dark evil powers it promotes. Halloween is a form of witchcraft which uses their pagen rites to call on the fallen angels of satan kingdom. Halloween makes a joyfull celebration for evil ghost, monsters, and horror items of evil. We are not to celebrate death, but to celebrate LIFE in Jesus. This was an abomination to the Lord our God in Heaven as stated in the Bible Deut. 18:10-14 The Bible says much about the practices from which modern Halloween festivities are taken. The nation of Israel was specifically warned against the very same practices that are part of the modern Halloween.

THE BIBLE SAYS IN:
Deuteronomy 18:9-12 "When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, "or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you."
The Dead Do Not Come Back To Earth
The Bible Says In Hebrews 9:27 "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
Posted By: heartofdavid Re: Christians and Halloween - 02/13/06 06:06 PM
Hatred of whom or hatred of what? As Christians, we are taught to LOVE the sinner and HATE the sin. You see, we love what God the Father loves and hate what He hates. God loves you and me but He hates sin. So, there is a separation there that I think confuses non-Christians. Do not assume that a Christian hates you because they hate what you believe. Precisely the opposite, they hate the ideas and beliefs that will lead to your spiritual death. You see, we love eternally like our Father, God. So hating what harms you is part of loving you.
Posted By: MeSheWolf Re: Christians and Halloween - 08/11/06 06:21 PM
Lets say what Halloween really is... It is the day before All Hallows'Day aka All Saints Day when Christians around the world celebrate ALL SAINTS-- especially those who have gone on to be with our Heavenly Father. No one condemns those who celebrate Christmas EVE why have a problem with the day before celebration of Saints lives? I feel very sorry for anyone who truly believes this is an "evil" holiday.. it is everything to do with remembering those who have fulfilled their lives in Christ. Samhain is very different, it is celebrating all who have gone on before. Just because the two holidays of different religions fall on the same day DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE THE SAME HOLIDAY!!!
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