I wanted to hear from some Athiests regarding what they think about what is often told us by some of the other groups here concerning how we can change our life situations by thought.

I'm probably not expressing this very well, so I'll give you a few examples of the things I have been told:

1)That everything that happens to us is what we have attracted to us - that we create our own reality.

2) That if bad things happen in our lives, or to our family, or country, it is because it is 'karma' - and we are just getting back what we, or our family, or country has given out - even as long as 100 years ago.

3) That we can heal ourselves by the power of thought, even to the point of growing new bones, or repairing damaged tissue; - and that illness and disease is really only a creation of our minds.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on these things. (I am asking this question here because I know I will receive answers based on logic)

Patience.

As far as I can answer this from a Buddhist view-stance... your point number 1) is linked Karmically to your point number 2) but you must remember that this applies to all the good stuff too....Life isn't all 'bad' just as it isn't all 'good'. It is what it is, and our own power of appraisal and perception helps us with how we actually deal with all the 'stuff'....

From a personal view-stance, point three is a very definite possibility. Although I have not experienced the miracle of healing from a terminal illness through the Power of Mind alone, personally, I know and have read verifiable accounts of such instances, and I do believe for my part that the fundamental basis of any healing - physical, mental or Spiritual - is triggered and controlled, and even originates and is orchestrated by how we view it through our Mind.
The Mind is an untapped source of constant interest and how it works, and the effect it can have on the individual is breath-taking. I have seen transformations in people through their own attitudes and perceptions which have never ceased to amaze me.
From my standpoint, if the mind is strong, focussed and determined - anything is possible.

Yes it's true. Third prinsiple of Hermetics- All is vibration. You are vibration.

Every time I hear this, I want to whack the speaker with a bat and say "Don't blame me, you created this reality."



Actions have consequences, good and bad. To call this "Karma" adds an unneccesary layer of mysticism onto things. furthermore, it smacks of blaming the victim. Most ethicists I've read reject collective punishment. I waould apply this to intergenerational punishment as well.



The conscious mind can influence or control the nervous, muscular, digestive, respiratory, and endocrine systems, and the placebo effect demonstrates that the mind plays at least some role in healing. However I know of no evidence of mentally regenerating limbs.



That's a core belief of Scientology (at least until you pay to get into the OT levels) but I think that Pasteur did a pretty good job of disproving it.

You misunderstand then. Karma is not judgemental. There is nothing Mystical or pseudo-spiritual about it. In fact, it is merely a consequential process. Judgement is a Christian, Deistic concept, but in Buddhism, there is no aspect of judgement or retribution. None at all.




There is no mention in the initial question of regenerating limbs. However, I do know for a fact that a person's mental state is extremely influential regarding the rate and extent of healing. Even the most advanced medics will now admit that if a patient can be convinced to regard their illness, malady or ailment with a positive attitude, and affirmation, it has certainly been recorded in some trials that the healing process was greatly improved in these individuals.

BellaOnline ALERT: For anti-spam reasons, we restrict the number of URLs allowed in a given post. You have exceeded our maximum number of URLs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Karma (as the cause of actions in the physical world) more of a Hindu concept, wherein it is very judgemental, determining how you'll be reincarnated next? I always though the Buddhist karma was more about whether you got off the wheel or not. Yes, I know there are multiple schools of Buddhism, with varying degrees of mysticism. But if karma concerns the soul and the reincarnation thereof, it is most definately a mystical/supernatural concept.



True, it talked about regrowing bones and tissue. But claiming that bones and tissue heal is a rather trivial thing, since they do so independently of the mind.

Been watching the secret have you? I got a secret for you, those con artists are getting rich because people buy this stuff.

1)That everything that happens to us is what we have attracted to us - that we create our own reality.
hogwash! This may be mildly true to the extent that if you go to school you can get a better job or if you don't just st eat junk food you will be healthier. But your point number one says "everything that happens to us". The concept is ridiculous and not at all supported by evidence. I do not dispute the power of positive thought, but drop the mystical [censored], if somebody breaks into my house murders a loved one, I did nothing to cause this.

2) That if bad things happen in our lives, or to our family, or country, it is because it is 'karma' - and we are just getting back what we, or our family, or country has given out - even as long as 100 years ago.
My argument from above applies.

3) That we can heal ourselves by the power of thought, even to the point of growing new bones, or repairing damaged tissue; - and that illness and disease is really only a creation of our minds.
Perhaps relaxation can prevent stress which in turn can make us feel better but thinking you can cure lung cancer by thinking you can cure lung cancer, please. Grow new bones? I think science may get us there but I defy you to do it on you own.

James Randi, you've got your work cut out for you.

I agree with Nechochwen and Skeptic. I don't see illness and disease as mere creations of the human mind any more than I think people who are killed in floods, hurricanes, wars, or murders chose their own death. In fact, claiming that attraction and karma are 100% operative can lead to some pretty twisted rationalizations that allow people to ignore the sufferings of others and even victimize them with impunity.

There is something behind the concepts of attraction, karma, and self-healing, but it's not magic, and it's not the force. I prefer to look at these phenomena in more concrete, sensible terms. The theory of attraction basically breaks down to having the confidence to appear attractive to others, who may then be more willing to invest in you, and the courage to take greater risks, which may then result in higher payoffs (or higher failures). But it's not a magic bullet. People can't always alter their environment. I don't think it's fair or accurate to give 100% of the credit for commercial successes purely to the C.E.O. any more than it's fair or accurate to blame victims of genocide in Africa for their reality.

Likewise, I see karma as a social and psychological phenomena, not a metaphysical one. If you're respectful and kind to someone even when you (or they) are stressed out, then chances are that they will think kindly of you and will be that much more likely to treat you similarly. There's no magic to this. It's just that when people are happy and are treated well, they feel better and are therefore generally nicer to others. There's also something to be said for the reverse: if you're mean and nasty, chances are that the only people who will choose to spend time with you are two-faced opportunists, which is a sort of karma of its own.

And finally, self-healing through personal prayer (not assisted prayer, which has been proved useless if not detrimental), meditation, or pure force of will isn't too far removed from healing that occurs when someone is given the time and opportunity to rest and recover in peace with minimal stress. Meditation, prayer, and rest decrease stress levels, which means that the body can spend more of its energy on healing and less on dealing with stress and the issues associated with it. Self-healing can only go so far, however, given the imperfections of the human body. I would very seriously balk at the suggestion that homeostasis could be maintained eternally and that humans only become unhealthy and die because they want to.

I dont think it is good to blame the victom! I do think that thinking positively attarcts positive things. as for healing...pychological and mentalily conected problem I think can be helped by prayer, meditation, yoga...whatever. If you have high blood pressure due to stress, and PTSD then this may help but you cant eat lots and lots of sugar and carbs and pray your blood sugar down!!! although I have tried!!!

If used in the proper context and with medical professional its a help but when takeing out of context and no medical support it can cause major damage or death!!!

Hope i said this right!!!

I thank you all for these comments, especially Ali, Skeptic and Nechochwen.

You have confirmed what I also believe. But I had doubts, and these doubts have bothered me.

I have had 'spiritual' people tell me that my spinal disease is self-created and that 'new, healthy joints' can be achieved by 'positive thought' and that the reason why I have this condition is because I either 'attracted it' - 'earned it' - or 'created it' by my own negative thoughts. I can 'change' it by changing my thinking.

This signature quote of Alexandra's is an example of what I am talking about and asking - IS THIS TRUE?

"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts; with our thoughts, we make the world."

I have been told by some of these people that children who are sexually abused (even when they are only babies) have 'created their own reality' which made this abuse possible - or that they 'attracted' their abusers, or that they 'set the stage' for this because of their past-life karma.

Well, I can tell you that this is exactly the type of 'talk' that is very likely to send them off to hang themselves, or slash their wrists, or suicide in some other way. They have enough guilt as it is, without being told that they brought the whole thing on themselves, and even 'deserved' it, or were in some way responsible for what happened to them. This makes me FURIOUS! Yet I keep getting told it by spiritual people!

This is a HUGE trigger for me, because I am one of these abused people who has fought for 65 years to stay alive, - to BELIEVE that it wasn't MY fault, and to rediscover some self respect. This type of 'spirituality' is a KILLER!

It seems that in this day and age, there are a lot of people out there who want to transfer the responsibility for the atrocities of this world onto the victims. 'If you got hurt, then you asked for it'!

Our 'Civil Liberties' groups here in Australia are so concerned about the 'poor criminals' but the victims of crime are forgotten and have to fight to get any support or assistance. Usually they don't, or have to pay for it while the person who hurt them or destroyed their lives gets everything they need.

To give you an example of this imbalance, let me share with you a factual case. A man who tried to break into someone's home through the roof, (I'm sure he wasn't paying a friendly visit!)had the misfortune (too bad he didn't break his neck instead of his leg) fell and successfully sued the owner of the house for his injuries! And because he had complications, the settlement was around 500,000 dollars.

What punishment did HE get? Well, it seems that crime pays, because he got fined 2,000 dollars and a warning!!!

"Well", said some of the 'do-gooders' - "he was the one who was injured, and how do we know he was going to rob the people?" WHAT???!!!!

"People like that are sick" - says the 'do-gooder' "and they need rehabilitation and compassion."

What about their victims? Many victims are also beaten up and raped during the home invasions. If they fight back and injure the intruder, THEY are prosecuted for assault!!

The same happens with rape victims. THEY created the reality which caused them to be raped. The 'poor rapist' was 'attracted' to them because of their 'thoughts' - so one doesn't have to be Albert Einstein to figure out that the VICTIM is always the one responsible.

What a load of HOGWASH!

I put these questions up here to hear the opinions of clear-thinking people, after being told these things on another forum.
According to one lady, the atrocities suffered by my countrymen in WW2 were because our ancestors mistreated our Aborigines over 100 years ago! We just got back what we deserved! Trouble is, the ones who 'got it back' had nothing to do with what happened to the Aborigines!

It seems that we, especially the USA, were responsible for WW2 also - because our countries treated the Germans and Japanese so badly in earlier years.

I find comments like that worse than insulting, and I wanted to hear if others thought so too.

Thank you for your wise words.

Patience.

Hogwash!!!

Yep out of balance and so full of [censored]!!!

they have taken the concept to extrems and twisted it beyond any reason!!!!

I dont think you can attract a child molester or back problems!!!

I have NEVER heard such [censored]!!!!

and like all [censored] just flush and feel relief and hope the smell does not linger!!!

Thanks Bubbles. You are a breath of fresh air!

Hugs,

Patience.

After reading Alexandra's web links, I just wanted to mention to all, (incase you are wondering!) that my spinal disease is in no way related to the conditions shown in that article. It is quite different, and is a disease of the actual 'bones', and not the discs. It is not due to age, because it was first diagnosed, and showed up in scans when I was in my early 30's. There are bony growths affecting a third of the spinal column. Many of these, in neck and lower back, encroach on the spinal cord. It is inoperable due to the fact that surgery would come with a high risk of resulting quad/paraplegia. It is my 'positive thoughts' which have kept me mobile for so long, but all the positive thinking in the world isn't going to make the condition go away, and neither do the positive thoughts ease the pain I often endure.

This is one of the reasons why some 'natural healers' (that I sought help from in sheer desperation), told me that I had created it myself by my 'thoughts'. I was given 'treatments' and exercises which actually aggravated my disease. Now, I wouldn't touch an alternative healer with a 40 foot pole!

Regarding cancer, I developed a form of blood 'cancer' in 2002 which was not to do with a 'weakening of the Immune System', but actually the opposite. My immune system set about killing off all my red blood cells because it saw them as 'enemies' to be destroyed. The anti bodies would actually 'attach' to the red cells and blast them out of existance. So my treatment was actually to DISABLE the immune system until the red cells were able to recover in stable numbers, and remain stable.. It took three years for things to return to normal, and there was NO CAUSE found. Because the cause is unknown, there is no way of telling whether or not it will return, or what triggered it in the first place. Here again, some of these believers who insist that we 'create our own reality' tried to tell me that I had 'created' the disease. Hardly likely, because at that time it appeared, it was probably the one happiest time of my life, so I'd hardly be wanting to make a painful exit!

This is just to put you into the picture from the 'health' angle, so you will understand what it was I was being told I had brought upon myself, and had the power to heal - by changing my thoughts!

Thoughts weren't what saved my life in 2002-2005. It was good hospital treatment and some VERY powerful drugs!(and blood transfusion) So I get right stropping angry now when some well-meaning New Age pioneer looks at me condescendinly and says "Did you REALLY give meditation, or visualisation a fair go?"

Struth alive! Do they think I had any time or ability to do that while I fought for my life in a hospital bed, wired up to tubes and machines for two weeks! These people are not even on the planet!

Patience.

I read her postings and was amazed, some of the things she said were so clearly and demonstrably false that they don't seem to be mistakes, but rather deliberate lies. But then again, I'm predisposed to think poorly of her after some of her earlier, patently bigoted posts.

It has been found that those who fight to survive have better chances of recovery. But that is yet not an established fact.

I am sure that is true, but it is a far cry from everything that happens to us we bring upon ourselves.

Ok, I shall, as you are...
Buddhism does not recognise a soul. So there is no supernatural or mystical concept, as I described.
And Buddhists tend to speak of re-birth, rather than reincarnation. there is a distinction.


No they don't. Your mind is in contol of everything that happens within your body. I'm talking about the biological, nerve-impulse mind, though. Everything that happens to your body is as a result of mental, brain-controlled impulses. Given that we also think with this organ, and have a logical, mental mind as well, it's not impossible that the Mind can have a definite control over what happens to our bodies, is it?

Yes it is true. I didn't say this, by the way; These are the Buddha's words, but they have to be examined and understood in context.

Abusers think in a deluded, damaging, destructive way. That's how they operate.
They inflict pain and suffering upon their victims, and exert control.
Their victims suffer greatly as a result of this, in many different ways, and some of the suffering is mental, some physical, and sometimes a combination of the two.
The choice of perpetuating this mental pain is by and large, a personal, unconscious one.
we continue to apportion responsibility and blame for the way we continue to feel, on others.
But by changing our mind-set, and altering our point of view from Victim to survivor, we create a new world for ourselves in which we can taste and experiencce freedom, rather than to continue suffering and be shackled by past experience.
The only perosn who has any direct, immediate and transformative control over your mind - is you.
"Only you can free yourself from the slavery of your Mind." Bob Marley.
"I think. Therefore, I am".

It's been said by many, not just me.
I only say things I have found to be true for me. Through my own examination, testing and assessment of the situation I find myself in.
I am merely providing the explanation.
Whether you accept or reject the above, is up to you.

As ever, and with everything,
It's your choice.


Thank you for reading.

"It has been found that those who fight to survive have better chances of recovery. But that is yet not an established fact."

Yes Das, that is so true. So many survivors of child sexual abuse were unble to continue the fight and have sadly left us.

There have been many times when I too felt like giving up - just 'disappearing' - but then I'd get ANGRY - and the anger saved me and made me 'hang in there'. I'd have been lost years ago were it not for that 'angry' part of me that fought tooth and nail for survival.

There used to be an old Christian hymn called 'Fight the Good Fight with all your might' - and during the years that I was a Christian, I made that my 'battle hymn'!

When I was so ill, I fought to stay alive because I had someone who loved me, and I had three darling dogs who needed me. Had it not been for them I think I would have let go, and died.

It is so important to have something to live for, and to fight for.

Patience.

My personal experience has been that when I do good, good tends to come back to me (although often in ways I don't expect), if I do bad, well, I try not to, but I'm my own worst enemy, and my conscience would get me then!

Healing -- well, fact is, disease exists. Bones break. Nothing mystical about that.

However, placebos often do work -- and I think that it is harnessing the minds ability to improve healing, our bodies' functioning, etc.

Other mind powers, well, I believe from experience that there is more than science currently understands. The mind is a vast, uncharted territory, really. And currently, any scientist who studies any labeled-psychic abilities is automatically labeled a quack, and most self-respecting scientists choose to avoid that, thus going into other fields. Add to that the fact that there are a lot of charlatans out there...

However, my family history has precognitive episodes too frequent to be dismissed as mere coincidence. (I don't have this ability -- may be a good thing, as it used to make my grandmother a nervous wreck.) Ironically, I'm more skeptical of people who CLAIM the ability than most, particularly if they are making money off it, because the experiences I'm familiar with were not controlled. My grandmother had Dreams (as opposed to dreams -- I could always hear the capital in her voice when she talked about a significant dream, as opposed to the dreams we all get), couldn't decide to have one, or not to, and she was very definitely a Christian, who had a hard time dealing with this, since it was contrary to her religious beliefs. It was usually bad stuff (not always, but usually), and she was a bundle of nerves until whatever it was happened (or the news reached her -- if it was about someone far away, it might take time for a letter to come).

My grandfather also had abilities, though I didn't see that (he died when I was young, and unlike my grandmother, didn't live with us) -- apparently he used to read tea leaves, until he foresaw his mother's death. Wouldn't read them again after that. (My mother remembers seeing things like a duck, or a horse or such, until he pointed out what he saw. I suspect that the tea leaves were a way for him to focus that ability.)

My mother has had some precognitive events, but far fewer -- and given how horrible they made her feel, she is glad she rarely gets them.

Ok, is there not a forum in here for all this stuff. If I want to read fantasy I will go to a fantasy forum.

So, you basically disregarded the question entirely. Are you claiming that Buddhists (and your school of Buddhism in particular) have a monopoly on the term karma? That the Hindu definition of karma (which predates the buddhist by quite a bit, btw) isn't relevant to the original question asked?



This is simply false. Even excluding the innumerable organisms which grow and reproduce without the aid of brain (or even nervous tissue) and even excluding the human organs which function without nerve endings, it is possible to grow human skin, kidneys, corneas and livers in vitro without any connection to a person (or a brain) at all.

Skeptic, are you implying that what I posted was fantasy? As I said, I suspect there are scientific aspects that current science has not gained an understanding of -- and my experiences were not fantasy. How many times can one hear of a dream, then, in the near future see that vision come true, before it passes beyond coincidence? It is not coincidence when I drop an object, it falls -- it is science that we currently understand.

If you study quantum physics and string theory, you may see some strange things, too -- yet they are viewed, generally, as science.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt in your philosophy." (Apologies to Shakespeare if I misremembered the quote.)

Actually if you dreamt something and it came true then it was a coincidence. Clairvoyance is not based on Science. Also there is no such thing as science that we don�t understand, Science is a methodology. The methodology of science creates the body of knowledge, there is no evidence that what you describe is repeatable in a controlled environment. There are no peer reviewed studies that demonstrate this. If I am wrong here please forward them to me.
What strange things do you see in quantum physics and string theory? Honestly I am interested to know, then I will provide you with the evidence that supports.
I fully understand that there is much more that we don�t understand than that which we do (yet) but to chalk up your personal experience as evidence is not science.

Here is a real situation that occurs in ER rooms everywhere. I personally know an ER nurse who swore that on a full moon they would have the worse nights. They were busy, there were more strange people. In fact, the type of night they had had nothing to do with astrology (because of the moon). It is merely their perception. They are actually really busy most days and nobody notices. Then one day somebody says �hey, it�s a full moon� and they take notice. This happens a few times and they have established a pattern. Or so they think.
BellaOnline ALERT: Raw URLs are not allowed in these forums for security reasons. Please use UBB code. If you don't know how to do UBB code just post here for help - we will help out!

Let's get back to the original question.

Looking at this now from a logical point of view, and not referring to personal experiences, what is this statement saying?

Everything that happens in our lives is the result of our own thoughts. We create our own reality.

In logic, the term 'Everything' means 'All' - and that suggests that it is not something which occurs in SOME cases, but in ALL cases. IT IS FACT! Either this belief is true of ALL - or it isn't true AT all!

If this is true, then I would ask the following questions of those who believe this concept:

1) At what age does the person first begin, or become able to create their own reality? In the womb? (now that would give a whole new slant to abortion, wouldn't it?) At birth? At the age of 5, or 7, or 12? - or when exactly? And how do you KNOW?

2) How can anyone know when a child is old enough to 'create its own reality'? What proof is there that this is even possible - let alone true?

3) And where does this end? Does it mean that those who were killed in the 9/11 attacks each created that situation for themselves? Or, were they the victims of someone else's 'reality'?

How did the victims happen to create the 'reality' to be the victims of the terrorists who had created the 'reality' to carry out the attack?

It sounds a bit (a LOT, in fact!) far fetched to me.

I really don't believe that anyone would create a horrific reality for themselves.


And for my last question:

4) If we can, and do create our own realities and our lives are dictated by our thoughts, then how come it doesn't work the other way around? How come our thoughts of winning the lottery; meeting a loving partner who will be true to us all our lives; being cured of the cancer (which we apparently created anyway - so if we 'thought' it into our lives, why can't we 'think' it out again?) and living the life of happiness that just about everyone desires and 'has positive thoughts' about attracting to themselves?

If it works one way, then it ought to work the other way as well, AND IT DOESN'T - at least not for me and millions of others.

What about you? (P.S. I have not included 'healing' in this because it obviously amounts to the same thing - the power of the mind to create, or to destroy)

Patience.

Patience, you make lot of sense.

Let me add-

What about children born with disease? Do they get that because of what they thought in the womb? Thoughts can make some changes to our reality, but lot of it is governed by other factors such as karma.

Patience (I agree with you 100%),but I think you are missing the concept a little here. Believe me I am on your side however, in the case of the 9/11 attacks, those people were part of your reality, as am I and everyone and everything else in your life. If you are creating your own reality then I am not really here. Those killed in 9/11 were only a part of your reality.

I do not believe this of course as it is ridiculous.

WOW, Skeptic, that's an interesting slant on it! I'd never thought of that. It certainly makes the whole thing so ridiculous!

Das also makes an excellent point about children in the womb.

I'm waiting now to see if those from another forum who claimed this was true are going to come and prove it! (I notice that they have come on the Athiest forum before to make their points!)

If it's a fact, then logically, facts can be proved. Beliefs can't. I think this statement is a 'belief' - and as such, is purely a matter of opinion. It is also a very judgmental, and cruel one to tell to people who have had great suffering in their lives.

I also see it as a 'cop out'. It is telling people that if their lives have been painful, then they only have themselves to blame, and it lets the people who commit the crimes off the hook to a large extent. (eg: it is saying that their victims 'invited 'it!)

That's how it appears to me anyway, but I could be reading it the wrong way.

Patience.

mmm ok lets say i dont agree with that (I do but i want to play devils advocate so I can see where this goes)!

If the victom feels he or she has chosen this life, good or bad, wouldnt that give the "victom" a sense of control and power over his or her life?

Most victoms feel powerless to control what has happened to them so by letting them say "I chose this life for the greater good and I may struggle with it at times. But i have learned from it and become better for it."

Isnt that better then no power and being a victom of chanse with no control?

(Please dont blast me I just want to see how you responed and what you think!!!);{})

>What strange things do you see in quantum physics and string theory?

Well, it's been a while, but I know the double slit interference experiment's pretty odd -- the results seem to depend on whether it is observed or not. (I can't recall all the details, but one it shows quantum patterns, keeping with the particle nature of light, the other wave patterns keeping with the wave nature of light.) And string theory postulates 11 dimensions (it's what makes the math work out.)

I remember the study on full-moon activity, too, btw. My sil (a former ER nurse) swears the full-moon has more oddball stuff, but the facts don't seem to back it up. I know I'm just as nutty the rest of the month! ;-)

What I mean by science not currently understood -- well, it is science that the earth rotates, revolves around the sun, that the sun moves in it's orbit around the galaxy, that the galaxy goes around it's supercluster -- but humans didn't have the understanding of that for a long time, and believed that the idea that we are moving (even while standing still) around the sun seemed absurd. Just look in the sky and observe. In the morning, it is in the east. Later, it is high in the sky. Later still, in the west. Obviously, the sun is moving around the earth!

But, of course, we know that is not so -- we have better understanding of the science of how the sun appears to move.

I think you were using science as a verb (as in doing good science), while I was using it as a noun -- collected body of knowledge/understanding.

As for the rest of the discussion, as far as I can figure, unless we are not real (and I am operating on the assumption that I, at least, am!), I can't see how thought can be all, and the sole cause of all problems. If I could think my allergies away, I would. I can't, I don't imagine them (and since I rarely pay attention to the pollen counts, can't say that I expect them to be bad certain days, not so bad others). Think of that. ;-)

No, I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself adequately, did I?

Of course I�m not assuming monopoly on the concept of karma, but as a Buddhist, I can only respond from a Buddhist standpoint, and would not presume to speak on behalf of others. I�m merely answering from my knowledge.





I'm sorry. I do see your point, but i was referring specifically to aspects of the body already within the body... I didn't reaslise we were going to move into the realms of external manufacture, as i was trying to stick to the specific topic matter.
I'm going to personally call a halt to our interaction here, because I don't want to deviate too far away from what Patience intends in her discussion.
But thank you for talking to me.

Bubbles, this could certainly apply in some situations, but it would depend greatly on what had happened to the 'victim'.

Thanks for this thought though. It isn't without merit!

Patience,

I think for someone who holds to this believe and is happy and feels impowered by it; its ok for them because it works but for someone to use it to blame the victom it is wrong!!! and in cases of someone trying to get out of punishment by blameing his her victom it is wrong too!!!

Thank you for your replys!!!

Why do some many kids get cancer?

Yes, it is important that we have someone to fight for. We need someone to live for. Someone said- man is not an island. I agree with that.

I have read most of the posts in this thread. It seems that people are suggesting that we invite abusers with our mind. Sorry. I disagree.

I never invited my abuser with my thoughts. I was a happy person living in my own world and this abuser made my life hell.

This discussion is good for debates, but makes no practical sense to me. No other person who was abused will agree to this. Patience, did you invite your abusers with thoughts? What about others who were abused? what do they say?

How about terror attacks? Do the victims invite the terrorists with their thoughts?

Somebody has also talked about mind controlling the body. Mind does not control involuntary functions of the body. We do not digest the food after ordering our stomach. that happens itself. Same with liver, kidney and heart functions.

I am using science correctly. The Earth going around the sun is not Science. Science was used to discover that fact. It is actually gravity which itself is not science. Gravity was discovered using science. I was not using science as a verb because a verb describes a noun and i was not using it as a noun because this is not a grammar issue. Science could be a noun or a verb depending on the sentence structure.

das, I don't think most of us are saying that. I think most in this atheist forum are quite rational. There appear to be a few who have dragged their outlandish beliefs into realms that are not just religious.

sci�ence /ˈsaɪəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sahy-uhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun 1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.
7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1300�50; ME < MF < L scientia knowledge, equiv. to scient- (s. of sci�ns), prp. of sc&#299;re to know + -ia -ia]


�Synonyms 7. art, technique, method, discipline.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, � Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source sci�ence (s&#299;'&#601;ns) Pronunciation Key
n.

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
Science Christian Science.


[Middle English, knowledge, learning, from Old French, from Latin scientia, from sci&#275;ns, scient-, present participle of sc&#299;re, to know; see skei- in Indo-European roots.]


(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright � 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source
science

c.1300, "knowledge (of something) acquired by study," also "a particular branch of knowledge," from O.Fr. science, from L. scientia "knowledge," from sciens (gen. scientis), prp. of scire "to know," probably originally "to separate one thing from another, to distinguish," related to scindere "to cut, divide," from PIE base *skei- (cf. Gk. skhizein "to split, rend, cleave," Goth. skaidan, O.E. sceadan "to divide, separate;" see shed (v.)). Modern sense of "non-arts studies" is attested from 1678. The distinction is commonly understood as between theoretical truth (Gk. episteme) and methods for effecting practical results (tekhne), but science sometimes is used for practical applications and art for applications of skill. Main modern (restricted) sense of "body of regular or methodical observations or propositions ... concerning any subject or speculation" is attested from 1725; in 17c.-18c. this concept commonly was called philosophy. To blind (someone) with science "confuse by the use of big words or complex explanations" is attested from 1937, originally noted as a phrase from Australia and New Zealand.

Online Etymology Dictionary, � 2001 Douglas Harper
WordNet - Cite This Source science

noun
1. a particular branch of scientific knowledge; "the science of genetics"
2. ability to produce solutions in some problem domain; "the skill of a well-trained boxer"; "the sweet science of pugilism" [syn: skill]

It is interesting to note that most rational thinkers on this list have agreed that we do NOT create our reality by our thoughts. This is why I wanted to introduce this topic on the Athiest list, so that I would hear a balanced approach to the statement made so often by others on the Spirituality forum. I needed to hear the 'voice of logic' and I am very grateful to those who have provided this 'sanity' to the discussion.

No Das, my friend, you and I, as survivors of terrible sexual abuse, KNOW that we could not possibly have 'chosen' that for ourselves. What hurts, and hurts deeply, is when others who have other views about it, try to tell us that we DID create it, and present this theory as fact.

I was 'told' on another forum that whether I like it or not, I WAS 'responsible' for what happened to me. I had to hear from people who do not agree with this view, because it was making me feel like some kind of monster! I needed someone to put clearly into words why such a belief is ridiculous.

I thank all those who have answered this question for me, and helped me to see the difference between belief and fact; opinion and knowledge; fantasy and logic.

Patience.

Maybe we are looking at this all wrong!! You dont invite abusers but if you make the abuse the focus of your thoughts then you have created your own hell but if you chose to see that you have survived the abuse and moved on with your life then you have conconcord and won the battle and you are able to see the good things in life and have joy and peace!!

so in this sence you invite happyness into your life or you chose your own hell!

Any thoughts?

Some abuse you never recover from. It follows you. It destroys your life - your future, whether you want this or not. The damage is permanent. You may move on in your life, but nothing changes the damage done. Sometimes you can't move on as you would wish, because the legacies prevent you from doing so. The legacies can prevent you from obtaining the jobs you have the talents for. Your mental and emotional state is permanently affected. You are 'crippled' by the damage. It really has nothing to do with your thoughts. A paraplegic may have a very positive approach to life, but the fact that they are confined to a wheelchair will limit what they are able to do. You can only strive to accept it, and make the best of what you have left.

It is difficult to understand.

To not be able to reach your full potential is one of the toughest things to come to terms with.

Lovingly,

Patience.

"To not be able to reach your full potential is one of the toughest things to come to terms with."

What if your full potential is to live within physical limits but acheive spiritually beyond them? Isn't it really how we measure "Full" potential? Isn't there more to being a human being than what we can physically do?

Hello there BB Editor, it's nice to see you contributing!

What you say is very true. It is the way I approach life now.

I do have those 'regrets' though, and this is because I had some special talents which were not able to be carried as far as they would have in someone who did not have my particular handicaps. Handicaps that were the result of what others did to me. So sometimes I look back with anger and regret. I know! It achieves NOTHING! And that is why I am still 'hanging in here' and making the most of what I have left.

When people see something they do not understand, they sometimes want to destroy it. That is what happened through my life. In other cases, it was my own fears and insecurities which held me back.

I often have days of 'self pity' - knowing thatI have missed out on so many things which others take for granted, like having a childhood that was filled with happy memories; - having the joy of being loved, or even having a boyfriend, or being able to sleep at night without fears and nightmares. I still feel a sense of sadness when I see friends marry and have children, and I am all alone. But this is just self pity, and I quickly think of all those who are suffering in this world in ways I did NOT suffer. And I count my blessings.

The things I did achieve, in spite of the 'legacies', make me aware now of how much more I could have achieved, and how much more fruitful my life could have been if I had not been 'shot in the foot' - so to speak. I could have reached greater heights with the many talents I was blessed with.

I am now going on for 69 years of age, and when one reaches this age, one tends to look back on life with a critical eye. If I wasn't a positive person, I would no doubt see my life as a wasted one, but I know I did my very best, and that's the most that anyone can do.

So yes, what you say is true. We make the most of what we have.

With all good thoughts,

Patience.

I understand what you say because abuse has given me so many negative gifts.

Yes Das, I think the psychological damage is the one which is the hardest.

Patience.

That lives with us forever despite all the therapy.

I have read this whole tread with interest and I must say I agree with most of what you all say.
Of course we dont attract bad things that happen to us.What a load of crapola buddhism is....Another form of brainwashing.

I think that perhaps good people try to find a reason for the horrors in our world. Some way of 'explaining it' that is acceptable.

If we 'chose' it, then it doesn't seem so bad. If we 'created it' for the purpose of learning lessons, or teaching others, then it doesn't seem so bad.

I wonder if perhaps there isn't some 'denial' (in the psychological sense) going on here?

Not exactly 'explaining it away' - but finding a reason for it that is acceptable to their minds?

If someone breaks into your home and kills your child, whose reality is that? Whose 'creation' is that? The child's? The Parent's? - or the perpetrator's? Or are they all working in collusion?

The belief that we all create our own realities or choose them is saying that!

It makes no sense, and is actually a terrible thing to even consider!

As I have heard said: "Stuff happens!" - and it is up to us how we deal with it when it happens to us.

Patience.

You obviously haven't read the thread properly them, because Buddhism doesn't say that.
Where does it say that?
Where have I said that?

In your tag line Alexandra.

What, about our thoughts making our world?
I have tried explaining this elsewhere, as well as to a close friend.
I hope she doesn't mind, but I'm reproducing what I said to her in a pm, here.
I hope this will explain what the tag line means more clearly, because I fear some may be misunderstanding it.....

FIRSTLY:

The word Karma - and it's meaning - has been somewhat misunderstood, i think.

Karma is a simple process. it's not a manner of judgement, or retribution, or condemnation or punishment.
karma is just a system by which we describe cause and effect. Action and re-action.
But even the greatest Minds in Buddhism cannot fathom out the deepest mysteries and workings of Karma.
The Buddha himself listed the Law - the complexity - of Karma as being one of the Four Imponderables, or the Four Conjecturables.

The bad things that happen to us in this life are NOT payback. They are not a means of Revenge, meted out on us by that great god Fate or his partner, Destiny.
There is National karma, there is Community karma, there is neighbourhood Karma, there is familial karma and there is individual karma. and we are subject to influence by all of those.
But to say that a child of today is suffereing because of evil deeds carried out in a previous life is both cruel and over-simplistic.
if a child is born severely handicapped, we cannot say what brought it to this point. But what about the parents? is it due to their bad karma too? Why should they be punished because of something their child did in a previous life? Or indeed, why should the child endure a punishment, because of his Prents' Karmic consequences?
It's ludicrous to ponder such things, to squander precious Life-time now, trying to work out something like this. We inflict mental pain and torment upon ourselves, in an effort to wrestle with the unsolvable dilemma.
What happened to you in this life, was nothing to do with you. it was not your fault, you did not bring it upon yourself, and you did nothing to invite or cause any of the things that happened to you.

Just as we cannot be held to blame for what our neighbour did to his dog before you met him, so we cannot be blamed for what our yester-self has done in the past.
You can only admonish your neighbour now, and prevent him from being cruel to his dog, just as you can only deal with you now. And only Now.

To try to find rhyme or reason for some things is impossible, because you would need to be able to get into the minds of those who hurt you, and why they hurt you, and what caused them to act like that, and into the minds of everyone they know, and how they all inter-acted, and then, further back still, into the minds of all those peoples' parents, and what made them behave in any way they did....
It's all impossible.
Some things are unanswerable because they just are.

The fundamental basic reason people behave in negative ways is through Fear and Pain. Fear of Loss of Control. Pain because of this Fear. They lash out like a wounded wild beast.
How these two emotions manifest - and to what extent - is a massive and unquantifiable variable.
I'm not suggesting for one moment you sympathise, forgive or accept.
All I'm asking you to do is to understand.
To call such people "ignorant" is to massively understate their condition, but it's a delusion, an ignorance and a lack of mental astuteness and ability to climb out of the pit.
Consider then, the store of negative consequences they have set up for themselves, for now and for goodness knows how many lifetimes, in whatever future realms they will be born into....

And consider instead, the goodness, kindness and reslilience you are creating for yourself.
Maybe you were their victim because your re-born self needed this experience to help you grow and develop into the strong, marvellous human you are now.

It is said that at the moment of his enlightenment, the Buddha became aware of his previous existences. And apparently, some of them were pretty [censored]. He wasn't always the glowing Golden Boy. he had been a fairly base nasty piece of work at times.
But he knew that they only counted insofar as they had been stepping stones to Here and Now. And Here and Now is where he was, and Here and Now is where we are and Here and Now is all we've got.

Nothing more, nothing less.
The Past is just a bridge.
But we've paid the toll, so we don't need to keep hanging around. We need to stop trying to keep dragging it with us, because we don't need it. we're building new ones all the time.
and we haven't got to the next one yet.

That's point ONE.

SECONDLY:

This is what the Buddha meant by the signature I carry, which is a quotation from him....
It's really very simple.

"We are what we think."

For any words to be said, for any actions to be carried out, they must first of all appear as a cognitive thought in our head. Nothing we ever say or do, is NOT preceded first, by it's blossoming or birth, as a thought in our head.
When somebody says, "I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking" what they actually mean, is, "I'm sorry, I didn't put sufficient thought into the consequences of my words/actions."
When somebody says, "Oh, I never think about...." you know that they're either lying, or not putting sufficient thought into how they are phrasing something.
This is why Right View, and Right Intention, precede Right Speech and Right Action, in the Eightfold Path....

"All that we are arises with our thoughts; with our thoughts, we make the world."

"By his actions shall you know him".
Don't do as I say, do as I do".
"Actions speak louder than words"
Do as you would be done by".

Where did all these actions first arise?
[i]In that person's mind.

WE are constantly led to believe that if you watch how a person behaves, then you will know that person. If you observe how they live their lives, then that will be an indicator of that person's character.

But all these actions have to genuinely reside in that person's mind FIRST.

Every single person is first and foremost responsible for what they are thinking, because their thoughts will first shape the utterances from their mouths, often swiftly followed by an action to suit. That's how we create 'our' world.

If we think angrily, and speak angrily, we will be classified as an angry person. People will be on their guard, or avoid speaking and interacting with us. We will be socially shunned. Which, doubtless, will only serve to make us angry and give us a jaded view of the world as a hostile and unfriendly place.

If on the other hand, we develop Compassion, Kindness, and Love for our fellow man, (encompassing our selves first) we are more likely to develop the ability to use compassionate, kind, loving words and gestures, to express ourselves. This in turn will give people a favourable impression of us, AND themselves. They are worthy of such sentiments, which will make their day.
And make your world.[/i]

Is that any better?

You seem to have mastered Buddhism!

Far from it! Simply because I have the map, I don't always reach the destination - but the scenery is very picturesque - !!

I want to be sure I am not misunderstanding what you mean here, Alexandra, but when you say 'negative' ways, do you include ALL cruelty and acts of violence? Are you saying that everything is due to the 'fear of loss of control', and 'pain because of this fear'?

Is the person who sits their baby on a hot plate doing so out of fear of losing control, or fear of anything else? (and I could give a hundred other examples, such as carving up a tiny kitten, or keeping a small child captive for weeks so they can inflict all manner of torture on the child?) (these are reports of recent happenings here in Australia)

I think some people are simply plain evil!

Patience.

I can't help but agree. In fact, I would go so far as to say these people are insane.
And I don't mean they can't control their minds due to sickness or mental ilness. I mean 'insane' as to be so far gone as to not be able to recognise the human element within their frame.

I agree that these people are completely beyond the normal realms of Human help.

But would you agree that such people, although existent, are on the whole thankfully rare? Isn't this why their actions shock and horrify, why they make such an impact on us as a news item?

And there's usually a follow-up, a psychological analysis of why on earth they acted the way they did, or what on earth might have triggered such heinous crimes... there are always so-called experts on hand, to provide an insight, to open a window into their tortured personalities... aren't there?
And consequently, there are always those, who listening to this incessant droning, and perceiving it to be an excuse, or justifiable reason for why this monster acted in the crazed way they did, just shouts at the screen that they should be put to a similar torture, and given a taste of their own medicine.

Hmmmmmm.....



No comment.

No she has not.She just reads alot.

Thats nice that you believe that Alexandra but I and alot of others dont swallow it. I believe it is nonsense just like all religions of this world. BRAINWASHING!!!!!

The leader of your religion is comming here soon and for 300 bucks people can listen to him talk. I think religion is very lucrative indeed.

Hope816, as always and everywhere, you are entitled to your opinion, and believe it or not, I am immensely grateful for it.
It causes me to stop and re-examine what I have learnt, and to question again the things I have come to accept.

Tell me then, please, elaborate....
In what particular aspect do you feel Buddhism is brainwashing?
Give me a concrete example.

Thank you.

I fully agree with you patience. Some people are plain evil. I know some of them, especially the one who abused me.

Hello Hope816,

Mr. Mohatta asked me to convey Hello to you.

Hi Alexandra I am glad that what I have said has made you do some evaluating.That is a good thing. It makes me happy that something I said has caused you to do think about your religion.Thats what buddhism is all about.

You asked me to provide some clear concrete examples of why I think buddhism is brainwashing. I think it is thats all just like all the other religions of this world.Buddhism is nothing special in that regard - all the religions are guilty of it.

Go to google and type in the words " buddhism brainwashing " there you will find many websites who explain the role of brainwashing within buddhism and also other religions better than I could say in words.

~Hope~

Please tell him I am thinking of him and sending lots of positive vibes his way I really hope he can come back here soon as this forum is not the same without him.

Yes. I will tell him.

Thank you so much Hope. I'm gald you came back to me on this one.

I did as you suggested, and I took a look at the first five hits on google...

BellaOnline ALERT: For anti-spam reasons, we restrict the number of URLs allowed in a given post. You have exceeded our maximum number of URLs.

There are studies that show self-perception and behavior can be modified by self-visualization, thoughts, etc. A recent example is "Picture Yourself At the Polls" by Libby, Shaeffer, et al in the Journal of Psychological Science, May 2007. Boiled down: "the injunction to 'picture yourself' performing a desired behavior, may in fact, be an effective strategy for translating good intentions into practical actions." That could translate into many actions which result in changing your life situation in some way - although I'm not sure it would regenerate limbs

Thankyou Alexandra I am happy I could get you thinking and reading It sounds like buddhism works for you and if that is what it takes to keep you stable and happy than good for you - it cant do any harm I suppose.

Thankyou so much for taking the time to go through all those websites it was interesting reading.When I get some more time I will post some links that you didint get to,its very interesting reading I am sure you will find it facinating

Peace and Blessings to you

~Hope~

[/quote]

That could translate into many actions which result in changing your life situation in some way - although I'm not sure it would regenerate limbs
[/quote]

They are not serious about this are they? Sureley they are not saying that anything is possible?? Because quite obviousley it is not.

This statement of yours, patience, reminded me of this scripture (asmost thigns do... :))



Even though I relate to abuse victims; myself being one of them; I have been able to forgive my abuser and myself to the extent that I am able to gather myself and feel loved. I think it's the ability to feel worthy of love that really matters. I take the residual effects fo the abuse and try to see the world full of God's children; people worthy of love and acceptance. I have a hard time, too. It's so easy to slip back into judgemental tones. I have to remmeber that I don't want to be called abrasive anymore than anyone else wants to be labeled for their limitations. We are all missing something. None of us are perfect. No one has all the answers and there are no coincidences. I firmly believe that all people (cyber or otherwise) are introduced into our lives to expand in us the God given gift of love for our fellow man (and woman).

When you guys tak about evil people, it reminds me that none of us are evil so to speak, but there are those who choose to ignore the voice of God and listen to lies of true evil. In my opinion, anything that creates in us self doubt or insecurity is evil. God doesn't want us to feel like this. In Him we are made acceptable.

I know most here don't believe what I believe and that's OK. It's not my job to prostelyze, that's why I write articles, nor do I desire to make anyone feel put off, I simply believe what I believe and it soothes me and brings me comfort. I like the idea that there is a benevolent being (God) who loves me just the way I am. In fact, I am exactly the person He wants me to be right now and I am doing exactly what he wants me to do right now. I like the fact that I am not alone in my struggle to reach out to others with love (however hard), but that He is with me guiding me and reminding me of who I am and where I've been.

I pray often for those who seem to "rub me the wrong way". I know this is just my basic human nature warring with my God given Holy Spirit within.

I think living according to the beliefs I hold is a decision I consciously make. So, in a way, I guess you could say that it IS the power of my mind deciding to rise above the damage someone tried to do to me. Reminds me of the story of Jascob/Israel in the Old Testament (always the Bible with me :)). When he is on his deathbed and Joseph is coming to see him, Joseph walks into the room and Jacob (same guy) is almost dead but, Israel (same guy) sits up to greet not only his son, but his grandsons, and bless them. I think we've all got a bit of Israel in our Jacobs.... hope you get this...

My mom used to say, "Pick yourself up by your bootstraps!!"

Hey guys, can I come in a say a few words?

I'm Percy, and I am one of the separated parts in the 'dissociated' system of Patience (which is why I'm using her ID. She isn't here right now, and I am sort of 'driving the bus!')

We separate parts don't always think alike, so I'd like to share with you what I believe.

To me, 'creating your own reality' means taking what you have, - your talents, your experience in life, your health, be it good or bad, and making the most you can with it. Trying to live as best you can within your limitations.

I believe that we are all responsible for our actions. No excuses.

We might be partly responsibe for the actions (reactions) of others if we have contributed. You know the old saying - it takes two to tango. But even then, each person is responsible for HOW they 'react'.

I don't know about thoughts. Thoughts can be destructive if you act on bad ones. If you act on good ones, then good things should happen, but sometimes they don't, simply because other 'actors' on the stage may be following a different script!

So, I reckon it boils down to just doing your best, and not giving up. This way you create the possibilities, but not the reality.

Does that make any sense?

Percy.

The above section certainly does with me.....

I agree!!!