I'm not crazy!!! Not sure how many guys post here, but I'm a guy FWIW... And it's nice to read commentary from a community that feels the same way on this issue. Just went through a painful 2nd breakup with a woman I love a lot. We were perfect for each other really. The first was 6 months ago and it was the kid thing. Just recently we've been spending time together again and it was obvious we're still crazy about one another. Brought up committment and we hit the impasse again. She wants kids, I don't. And whats weird is that she's this serious professional type; in grad school, has no real experience with kids, loves expensive hobbies and travel... Just thinks she wants them. Arghhhh. Decided to surf the net on the subject and ended up here. All you people with pretty much the same attitudes and experiences regarding having kids had been terrific to read about. My MWC friends all say, "don't do it, you have no idea how good you have it now." (Cool job, lots of fun/expensive hobbies, homeowner by the beach). For me, it's really sad that my ex is willing to give up a GREAT relationship; so many mutual interests, incredible compatibility in all areas, terrific sex, shared politics and world view, the works. All for a maybe relationship with some guy she may never meet. And she doesn't even know if she can have kids! Feel free to offer advice. In the meantime, it's great to have found a bunch of people with a common mindset.

BTW, I don't hate kids, my nephews were a blast and I'm the cool uncle and so forth. Just liking my life way too much to change it that much. Plus, the $$, the noise, the mess, the loss of privacy and all the other reasons people post. And I don't feel I need kids to make a contribution to the world. I've spent my life in natural history filmmaking and feel I've brought/am bringing a lot of great experiences to people they couldn't participate in. And making a difference.

Oh, and if men aren't really welcome, I'm happy to back out with a gentle nudge toward the door and go back to reading. Thanks for listening. Been a tough week<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welcome, Freefall!
I found this forum a couple months ago and agree that it is a tremendous relief to be able to talk to like minded people. You are smart to not agree to have kids since you know it isn't what you want for your life. A marriage where you agreed to have kids just to keep your relationship would put a great strain on the relationship. The marriage might not last, then you're left with an ex-wife and a kid! Hang in there - you will meet someone who wants to share your lifestyle and agrees with you on the kid issue.

You can't make her NOT want kids just as she can't make you want them. If having a child is something she wants in life, then it's not your place to put so much pressure on her to change her mind. Having children is a very important part of life for most people and something that can only be done for a limited amount of time. If you somehow convince her to get back with you and not to have a kid, I think it is extremely selfish and unfair of you, since she DOES want them. I really think you should leave her alone and move on. If you love her as much as you say you do, then let her go and do what she thinks is going to make her happy in life.

How old are you two anyway?

[color:"orange"] Welcome, freefall. Men and women are welcome to post here. [/color]

Now, now, you know it's a lot more complicated than that. I'm not trying to convince her not to have children; I could't live with the resentment that would bring and I'm sure it would be death for the relationship. But I've read about a lot of couples here where one did and one didn't and ultimately they decided not to since they wanted the relationship to survive. Meeting people you get along with in that way is rare; so rare that some people never do. We're both really picky as regarding physical, intellectual and professional issues as well as emotional. All I'm saying is that she might never meet the guy she is looking for and be out both the children and a great relationship. Which would be sad for all. Of course she might meet the guy tomorrow but who knows? And neither of us is approaching this from a selfish standard and you shouldn't necessarily assume the depth, or lack thereof, of the conversations we have had on the topic nor our concern for each others wishes, dreams and wellfare. I'm in my 40's and she's in her 30's.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Geez, you make it seem so definitive. Why don't you just agree to go your separate ways and promise to meet up again, in say, 10 or 15 years from now? If she's still single and childless at that point, then you can get back together at that time and live happily, childfree ever after (assuming she'll be beyond her childbearing days).

Ooooo, MEN! <img src="/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Of course you're welcome here. Obviously there are also a ton of childfree men out there, otherwise we'd have no "MARRIED no kids" board...I kinda wish my husband and other husbands/boyfriends out there would post more on the topic. It is great to hear from you, as we get to see the other side of the coin, as it were...we are all childfree and as we are all unique, we have our own reasons.

As for love...stick to your guns. There are many fish in the sea, and you and she both could probably be happier with other people. I know, I know...easier said than done...it can be extremely difficult to let go of someone you care about so much. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Good luck anyway, and may things improve for both of you.

Not a surprise there are men on the board. After all, men don't want to have children; they want their wives to have children. Or their girlfriends, casual acquaintances, one night stands, whatever. If we had to have the kids, the world would be depopulated in 2 generations; and I'm giving us the benefit of the doubt!

Heck, when I googled this topic over the weekend I figured there would all sorts of sights and that guys would be on them. Then I realized there are all sorts of sights for men who don't want kids: Bars, golf courses, workshops, deer camps, clubs, etc.,etc.<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm in that small percentile that would totally fess up to the responsibility of fatherhood, recognize it as the awesome responsibility that it is and want to do the best job in world. Same as any other undertaking. Which of course seems to leak out of every pore and attracts potential moms like bait. Everyone I've ever dated says what a great dad I'd make. Friends who know my orientation tell me, "what a waste of great genes." Drives me crazy. Why isn't it enough to want to live a great life, full of fun and adventure with someone you love and skip the whole family thing? Arghhhh...

[color:"orange"]Misery loves company. Many people with kids will try and attemp to get you to join them bc they are jealous of a childfree person's freedom. Simple as that.
"What a waste of good gene's." I despise that phrase more than any other. Just bc you have good genes doesn't mean your offspring will. Bad unknown genetics have been known to make their mark. [/color]

Hey freefall,
A belated welcome to the forum from me! I have been away for a few blissful days with DH (one of the many upsides to being childfree) and only checked back in this morning. So many interesting posts since i've been gone!
Anyhow, i'm sorry to hear that you and your ex have differing views on kids. It's very difficult to be in a relationship like that. You're absolutely right to end it now, rather than letting it drag on. If you have kids, you're not happy; and if you don't have kids she's not happy. Both of you deserve to be happy, and hopefully you can both find people who have similar mindsets on the subject. I really do hope though that your ex has thought seriously about why she wants kids. Just 'wanting' them sounds a bit fuzzy to me. Does she realise how much she'd have to give up to be a good parent? How torn she'd feel if she wanted to be home with her child? And all of the hundreds of other 'side effects' of having kids.....
Sorry, just being nosey. Am always fascinated to hear exactly WHY having kids is so important to people.
My sister and i were discussing it yesterday (she has a child) and concluded that whatever your decision (to have or not have kids) that it's always a selfish choice. You want to have one, or you don't want to have one. It's all about what you want - which is fine. No need to sugar coat it in excuses, no matter which way your decision goes.

Hi Millyella,

Thanks, you get it. The ex is a very smart, motivated, hard-working and interesting person on a lot of levels. As I mentioned initially, while she feels she wants to have kids she has no real experience with the enterprise, which concerns me and we've talked about it a lot. I've suggested she at least do something like be a nanny for a year to see how she likes it. (also joked that she pay the couple a $1000/month if she really wants to simulate the experience!) My brother, in his wisdom, did something similar with his wife. She came from a family of 11 and thought she wanted a large family too. They had 2 healthy kids at this point. Rather than argue about the merits of a huge family, my bro suggested she run a home daycare center for a year or two to see how she liked it. Two years of that and my brother had a vasectomy with his wife's blessing.

Anyway, with all her smarts and hard work, I don't think the ex has completely realized how much her life would change. I have enough like and respect for her that I really do want what is best. So I am concerned she might not end up in the situation she is hoping for. In my mind, the worst would be settling for a guy who might get with the program but not be the guy she really wants. Yet I do know women who make this compromise; settling for a good provider and father who might be something of a dullard or have other obnoxious qualities but brings home the bacon and supports the enterprise. But plenty of people do make a similar compromise. Kids are a no compromise situation but people will often "settle" in the spouse department and make up whatever intellectual or emotional things are missing with friends, hobbies and family.

People say that not having kids is selfish. I can't think of anything more selfish than having kids. Nothing wrong with that but lets keep it straight. I've gotten in several arguments at work for not ride-sharing, driving an SUV, etc. (The SUV is absolutely necessary in my line of work BTW) I tell them that their kids and their kids kids and so on, will use more resources than my SUV ever will. "That's different" they say. I'm like, "What you're really saying is that you have more right to those resources than I do." and so on. <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" />

Hi freefall... I can appreciate the relief you felt when you found this forum. I too struggled with the whole child issue. I really did not ever feel the maternal instinct, yet kept waiting for it as family/friends/coworkers insisted it 'would' happen. As I neared my 40th birthday, I had a little meltdown. Luckily I have a fabulous hubby who talked me through it and helped me to realize those 'feelings' were not mine... they were the expectations of others in my life. Since then, I have grown comfortable and happy with my decision.

If you truly love this woman (you sure sound like you do) maybe you can give it a shot to talk to her about her feelings. I agree with others who said this issue definitely is something you both have to be on board with... once a child is in the picture, there is no giving them back!

Life should be lived as you want to live it. To feel obligated to populate the earth because others say you must is ridiculous. There are plenty of people happily providing our future generations as we speak.

Oh... as for the CF life? I LOVE IT! Travel, weekends away, elegant dinners out on a whim, nice little presents for each other... all these would not be as much a part of our lives if we had a child. NO REGRETS!

Truthfully? We spent a year talking about it. I think the talking part is over. We both know exactly where the other person stands and how important our feelings on the subject are. I think she's being pigheaded <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Kidding. I mean it's a pretty normal desire; most people seem to want it in one form or another especially those that aren't single by reason of insanity or terminal unattractiveness. And most of them probably want it too at some level but can't get there from here. So we are estranged and if she gets back in touch at some future date and has had a change of heart we'll see. But I'm not waiting around. I had this total acceptance of my orientation to this recently. Funny but what got it started was listening to a show called "This American Life" and the subject was Unconditional Love. And it dealt with parents who were raising, respectively, an autistic child, something called a "failure to bond" child and some other dysfunctional child. I've considered I might have it in me to raise a perfect kid. You know, the one in a thousand Gerber baby who never fusses, learns everything fast and so on. But I know I don't have it in me to deal with something like I heard about on the program and the deal with having kids is you don't get to choose; you roll the dice and you get what you get. And that's what the rest of your life looks like. Relatively OK or hell. My brother went 2 for 2. My mom? Two out of 3 with the first being a heartbreaking sh!thead who keeps trying to talk her out of his inheritance early. Model citizen too, as you can imagine. I like the odds as they are right now. Who Knows? Maybe we are all missing the UC gene?

I love "This American Life." Some of the stories are really depressing, though.

We've kind of got the same philosophy about it being a roll of the dice. For a lot of reasons, we decided we weren't willing to risk that we'd have a disabled child. If either of us had felt strongly that a child would fulfill something in our lives, we probably could have been swayed the other way. But even having a genentically "normal" child is no guarantee things will be smooth sailing. DH has a brother who attempted suicide at 17 and who now has a host of physical disabilities, brain injury-induced mental issues, addictions, etc. We recently assumed a large role in his support, so in essence, I now have a 31 yr old child with the mentality of a selfish, irresponsible, angry 15 yr old.

[color:"orange"] I don't have any maternal instinct, as neither does my husband. My husband will make comments that kids are expensive. My husband loves the childfree lifestyle. He like me ingores peoples pressure and expectations. If they want to be around babies, they should either work in day care or in a maternity ward. Me? I'd be much better off working/helping animals.

Also, what is it about babies being so cute? I do not find babies or toddlers cute. They eventually turn into horrible teenagers. I find horses cute, but that doesn't mean I going to go out and get one. Duh.


FreeFall, you are right, your ex could have the family part, but not the good qualities in a SO part. [/color]

Hey just something to add....I'm all for the CF lifestyle! I really understand the need not to have kids. Truly, I believe that some people have no interest and therefore are living a wonderful fulfilled life without children. I will always say when I post here that I do have kids (2)that I love beyond anything. But I love to read here because I don't really belong with all the other Mommies either. This board gives me a break from all the crazy Mommies I have to deal with sometime. I mean I'm in the club, but not really because I agree with a lot of what you guys say.
Anyway, your post just reminded me of my husband's Aunt. She's so sad right now because her husband died 3 years ago and she has no one in Germany now where she lives. She keeps saying she wished they had kids. We asked her what happened because we thought she never wanted any. And she said he convinced her not to and she was Ok with that. But now this is her one big regret in life and there's no one to share life with. Not that CF people think this - it's only what she thinks because she was convinced to not have kids and now that her husband is gone she's so sad and thinks about her regrets.
I think you're better off finding someone who totally doesn't want kids and you'll both be happy. We have a bunch of CF friends and it's like they're happy because they are of like mind.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Oh no, you shouldn't really have kids to take care of you in your old years! But it would be nice! I use to go to nursing homes when I was little and all those old people just sat around and waited for the kids to come. How sad!
Anyway, we were really surprised that she was sad, because she always said she didn't want any kids too. But perhaps since he passed away - NOW she regrets. I think she was totally bought into the whole CF idea and then when you're all alone you wish there was someone in your life. She's just so sad now. Who's there for her now? She doesn't blame her husband - she said she made the decision too so it's not his fault, but it's just wishful thinking that there were kids and grandkids in her life. I suppose it's hindsight now. Not much we can do. We try to call her every week, but she's just so sad. So that's why I wanted to write because it's maybe much, much later in life that there is regret -- if you really wanted kids. Just food for thought...

So what's the solution? Have a child when you are not sure that you want one, and sacrifice your life as a independant woman, so that your life at 80 will be filled with grandkids?! It's this kind of no-win situation that's been depressing me lately.

I've just lost a wonderful relationship because I couldn't tell my boyfriend that I definatly wanted kids (like the guy who started this thread). Actually, I've described many times to my boyfriend the things that make me not want to have a kid...the thought just sends me into a panic...pregnancy, birth, trying to physically recover from that but not having the time or energy to focus on yourself anymore...and then trying to 'balance' a hard-earned career with the full-time job of parenting at home...AND trying to maintain some shread of romance and privacy with your husband...how can anyone easily say yes to that? I just don't understand, and I don't think I ever will.

For me, it's been really hard to find a man who does not want to knock me up. Give it three months and they're talking about it, which I know is most women's fantasy, which makes me feel even more like a freak.

It's nice to know that there are some people out there who don't joyfully count down the days until they're laid up with morning sickness.

Long term care insurance, prepaid hospitalization, prepaid funeral, will on file with the attorney, living will and directives on file with doctor and everybody and their dog and really great relationships with sibs, nieces, nephews, cousins, aunts.

Someone will be around somewhere when I get up there in age.

To Jvo37 - Oh no, you cannot easily say yes to all those things. Are they serious? Loving being pregnant? - it sucked! Morning sickness - PLEASE! You want to kill yourself! Truly. But if you say yes, I am proof that it can be done with no maternal instinct at all and be happy. Only if you want it. If you let someone talk you into it FORGET IT! I always say having my kids (and boy did I luck out here, because they are PERFECT angels) is like climbing Mt. Everest in perfect conditions. Hey but it's still climbing Mt. Everest! It is hard work! Hardest job in the world? NO!C'mon it's not THAT hard.
Please don't second guess having children because you feel out of place with other people.
I thought I would never get married NEVER! AND never have kids. NEVER. And then things changed. Then you just know for yourself. When in doubt don't do it! Was I scare? Hell ya. Shitless. Thank God it worked out. I got lucky.
There are SO MANY reasons not to have kids. Again - when in doubt - DON'T.
Just my opinion.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, sorry. It confused us too. She always told us she didn't want kids. That they were happy. But when he died she told us that she did want kids in the beginning, but and he talked her out of it. She said she made the decision too so it's not his fault. She revealed that she did think about this over the years, but that she was happy and pushed it out of her mind. It's just that she's lonely now. My husband is the only person she has and we're far away.

I don't think they were unhappy at all when they were together. I think she did love her husband dearly and if given the choice still would have choosen to be with him. I think she now wishes she could have done both - had him and and kids.
It's just her situation - not that CF people would be lonely later. She's older now - close to 80 years old. My husband's Mom (her sister) passed away this year. My husband is an only child. I'm just sad for her - she's very sweet.
I think is just hindsight and wishful thinking, because of her loneliness. Maybe there are older people that regret having kids, who knows? You know, the grass is greener.....
Anyway, I just wanted to say that perhaps it's better to find someone compatible on the subject of kids so neither one of you has to compromise or have any regrets about having/not having children.

I agree...I think the truth is that getting old sucks, and there will be some degree of loneliness no matter what. Children need to have their own lives, and they can visit you when they have time to. But your day to day life is bound to become lonely if you survive all of your friends, your spouse, and family that you grew up with as a child.

I was reading about group retirement homes, where old people buy a house and live independantly together, as an alternative to horrible nursing homes. Anyway, it's crazy to be thinking about all this now...I'm only 28!! But the pressure to made the children decision forces all of these questions.

[color:"orange"] Dito. [/color]

Barbara Walters related something that her daughter (who decided to remain CF) said that really made sense and hit home:
"I'd rather make the decision NOT to have kids and take the chance that later I 'might' regret it than to decide to have them now and regret it for my entire life".. or something to that effect. I think the message is we cannot live with what 'might be' we have to live with what we want to be right now.

There are no guarantees that decisions on ANYTHING we make now we won't regret. We can only decide for now what is right for now and live with the decision.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Can't argue with the truth! It's a shame more people don't live their life that way.

To Freespirit: Yes, she does have friends. It's nice of you to ask. I know I think it's sad too. But you know friends aren't the same as family. She doesn't have an outgoing personality to reach out to people or a network of friends that would keep her engaged. She's the kind of person that doesn't ask for things and feels bad when we send her presents and stuff. Of course, I know she feels happy to be thought of so I don't listen to her protests of "Oh, please don't spend money on me" etc. etc. So if she had a different personality she'd probably wouldn't be so lonely. I think this is important for the elderly - kids or no kids. If you keep busy and make friends easily then I think you'll be OK. I have a special place in my heart for the elderly. Guess I got babysat by a bunch of old ladies at church and hung out in nursing homes when I was young. I know one thing I would never put my parents in a nursing home. They're pretty bad. Anyway that's off topic - Sorry.
And ABSOLUTELY, you cannot make a decision about having kids just so you'll have someone in the future. Although hanging out in nursing homes did make me think about it. Ultimately, I completely agree -- you have to make the decision on your desire here and now. You know it's a really scary thing. It's just so simple for the people who know right away they love kids. They're so accepted in the world. And then there's the CF and loving it people which I think is easier because you know it and nothing will change your mind.Then there are the people that are sort of riding the fence, but are anti-kid people or lack maternal/paternal instinct people -- like me and it can be confusing. I know I debated it a long time. So my friends and I got together and talked [censored] about kids because we simply couldn't understand how people could like them so much. Now that I see the "other side" I know it's can't easily be explained. It's like, how can you explain being madly in love to someone who's never been in love? You just can't. I have never tried to explain what having kids is like to a CF friend because that's like trying to explain baseball, gardening or animals to me. I don't get it and I don't want to get it!
Anyway, now I see both sides. I see that not all parents and kids are bad. I have compassion for babies now that I never had before. But, I still feel out of place because I like your comments here. There's a lot of truth here that some of those people just don't see. I read these comments and laugh because I agree so much I want to shout, "Hallelujah!"
Anyway, hope you guys don't mind me commenting sometimes if I think it's worthwhile for you. I'll try to keep a low profile.

<img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hey thanks a lot. It's nice to come here and chit-chat with all of you.
You know you're right! Blood relations are very overrated. I, myself, have no loyalty to my blood ties.

I feel for the original poster. It must be so hard to break up with such a great person over such a difficult subject. Wonder if CF people have a way of meeting each other. How about internet dating and putting in your profile: "No kids"?
God, he was so right - maybe only could see having the perfect child. That's what I thought too! Yeah, like the Gerber baby maybe - and even then I'd probably still recoil a bit and not want to touch it. Ha ha. How did I have 2 kids? It still amazes me.

Holy Cow! My first post and look at all the replies. Must have struck a chord or something. I have a feeling that all of us on this forum have been here though. Or if not here precisely then visiting somewhere close... It's such a tough negotiation item and those of us that don't want to have kids can't really understand the depth or desire that some have to be parents. Lots of tears shed by the ex in realizing it just wasn't in my makeup. It is literally lost on me.

It is hard to break up with someone terrific. Especially when you see some of the really crummy, or indifferent, or just not all that interesting relationships that some people have. I think a really great relationship is truly a less than "once in a lifetime" experience, since some people never meet someone like that at all.

And yeah, a perfect child with a perfect environment (lots of respite time, time left for hobbies and vacations, and so on.). I can almost embrace that in theory. The sheer grimness of some of my married-with-children's friends lives though is a powerful tool of persuasion...

There are internet dating sites that are CF but the sites are pretty sketchy. Not at all like the interesting and intelligent collection of people here, or at least that isn't apparent. I think a lot of CF people are a pretty thoughtful and intellectual bunch and while physical attraction is a sort of screening item for some of us, the real attraction often comes over conversation when we get that inkling of, "Hey, this person thinks like I do!" That type of thing is less likely to happen on dating sites. Maybe they should have a forum or something so people can have a chat first and get to know one another outside the crucible of "pictures and stats."

[color:"orange"] Right on Target. [/color]

Well I just mentioned the internet dating thing because it worked out SO well for my friend recently. We went online together and wrote her profile - match.com - and we wrote "no kids" because she already has two. AND we were very upfront and wrote exactly what we wanted in a date. I helped her because she was scared and needed a partner in crime. Anyway, we were completely honest in our profile and how it works is people can "wink" at you online or you can "wink" at them. And then you start emailing each other or talk on the phone if you want before meeting. (I sound like an ad for internet dating, don't I?) BUT on her very first date she found someone awesome! We had written we only wanted someone to hang out with and enjoy their company - nothing too serious because she was going through a divorce. But he turned out to be SO compatible with her. He had the same profile. Loves traveling, is successful, going through the same divorce, has 2 kids exactly the same ages etc etc. AND they are at the age (both in their 30s) that they don't play games. He is so honest about things. No question is off limits. I've meant him and I gave him a big thumbs up! He may be even more compatible with her than her soon to be ex-husband because of the traveling issue. He use to not get why she wanted to travel. She loves to travel and she planned a fabulous trip to Australia with the two kids and had a great time. But he bitched about it the whole time until he got there and finally enjoyed the experience. But he still didn't have any zest for traveling. And now this new person LOVES it. So cool.
Isn't it nice to know it is possible to take another swing at relationships and hit it out of the ballpark?

There are internet dating sites that are CF but the sites are pretty sketchy. Not at all like the interesting and intelligent collection of people here, or at least that isn't apparent. I think a lot of CF people are a pretty thoughtful and intellectual bunch and while physical attraction is a sort of screening item for some of us, the real attraction often comes over conversation when we get that inkling of, "Hey, this person thinks like I do!" That type of thing is less likely to happen on dating sites. Maybe they should have a forum or something so people can have a chat first and get to know one another outside the crucible of "pictures and stats."

True. Y'know, I'm amazed that I can find guys who are CF--my ex was (originally wanted kids but then really thought about what they entail and decided he liked his money, which could be spent on computers and such, better), and my new boi is on the CF side of the fence (says he probably won't have kids but doesn't want to say he'll never change his mind, either). Actually, I'm amazed by how many people I find who are CF, period. I don't know if more people my age are realizing they don't need to have kids, or if it's just the sort of people I hang out with, but almost all of my friends (from college, at least) are either childfree or on the fence.

Katja: I tell you, the breeders haven't one clue that they are the major contributors to the growing numbers of cfbc people.

All one has to do is place yourself in a Walmart, a movie theatre, a restaurant, etc. on any given day OR night at ANY given hour, and that is all the convincing any reasonable, objective person needs to remain c.f. Any moronic sire or damn insisting on bringing their litter to dine at a restaurant at 9 or 10 o'clock at night deserves to have bamboo shoots shoved up their nails and toothpicks placed in their eyelids.

*ATTEN PARENTS: Your children screaming and throwing food all over the damn place is NOT CUTE... N O T C U T E .*

No one wants to see or hear the results of your pis s-poor rearing abilities. Please, please I beg of you leave them at home if it is after 8 o'clock, they're tired, sick, whiny...whatever. Just because your kids are feeling miserable for WHATEVER reason, doesn't mean the rest of the world deserves to suffer.

I doubt seriously you would appreciate my dog begging at your table, rubbing hair all over your clothes, barking incessantly, peeing on your floor or chewing your furniture. A rotton loud kid is no different and equally as annoying and bothersome [please note that I am not stating animals are more important than humans, nor am I stating your kid would pee on the floor, I am merely comparing the effects of those behaviours to anyone subjected to their actions.] Certainly you wouldn't expect someone to bring an ill-mannered canine like that out in public or keep them out in public if the behaviour starts and cannot be ceased - same principal applies. Stop being so selfish and start respecting other people's ears, eyes, time and space.

Fire

Amen/

This is really accurate. We are expected to cut parents with kids all sorts of slack for their kids behavior. It really is like badly behaved pets in public. Just imagine a dog, even a guide dog, howling and barking and running around a restaurant! The dog, and the blind guy, would be dining on the sidewalk! I know, kids are human (to their parents at least) and all that but they really are a lifestyle choice these days and should be regarded as such. It's like when people are late or missing at work and it's a kids thing. That's fine, as long as I get the same slack when my lifestyle choices keep me late or absent. Think of all the things that CF people do that might interfere with timely arrivals at work... Sleeping in peace, fooling around, having a leisurely breakfast and so on. Can you imagine showing up two hours late and saying, "Well, you know, we don't have kids so we had to sleep in a bit, knock one out, then fix a nice breakfast. You know how it is. Can someone fill me in?" Heh, heh.

Exactly.

I think you're right. I swear that the older my mom gets, she's becoming CF after the fact, lol. I see her tolerance for annoying kids going down all the time--and this is a woman who likes kids, but she sure hates the loud annoying ones and their breeders! And while she's fond of me, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have more if given the option, nor does she care that she'll never have grandkids.

I am new to this site and I love it! What a great group of people. I love the fact that everyone can be honest about how they feel and not be judge. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ToJVO37, I wouldn't have kids unless you are absolutely 100% sure. Once you have a child, you cannot give it back or put it in a kennel when you leave to go somewhere like I do with my dogs. Even if you had a child, there is no guarantee that you will get along with your kid or that they will take care of you when you are older. You should live your life for right now. No one knows what the future will bring. To bring a child into this world because someday you might want them to be with you is not a strong enough reason. There is so much that goes into raising children. I wish more people too the time to think about it like you are before they have them. Hang in there and just follow your heart and do what is right for you. Not what is right for your family or friends or society.

This is something I am struggling with right now as well so I understand how tough it is. It sounds like you are on the right tract though. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Freefall,

The nanny job idea is a great one, but the likelihood she'd go for it is a bit low, isn't it? Why not suggest she become a Big Sister? It's only a few hours a month (generally two visits per month of 2-4 hours each, doing things like sports, billiards, movies, etc.) with your "little", generally aged 8-14. I did it for a few years and it's great. The thing is, if you sign up for the program, you *know* you're making a contribution (the kids in the program are really lacking a good mentor in their lives and it's been proven that if they enter the program and are matched, they're less likely to commit crimes, become pregnant in high school, etc., and more likely to graduate). It would at least give her a little window into what (older) kids are like. As for younger kids, she could take her next block of vacation time and volunteer, 9-5, at a daycare. She soulds like kids are just a fun "concept" for her, and she's no actual idea what they're about, as you've said!

Becoming a parent? It's a crapshoot. Everyone seems to hope they're the one who's going to have an "Einstein" or a "Mozart", but they're just as likely to have a "Son of Sam" or a "Jeffrey Dahmer". The truth is, the kid is likely to be 100% average...the *only* legitimate reason for having a kid is because the couple wants to raise and nuture a child (not "make a contribution"!).

"Kids are a no compromise situation but people will often "settle" in the spouse department and make up whatever intellectual or emotional things are missing with friends, hobbies and family."

So, so true. Any other decision you can make as a couple is more reversible than kids. I like to use the analogy of moving to Alaska to run a mushroom farm! (yes...bizarre, strenuous, hard work, smelly...just like parenthood). I your partner wants to move to Alaska to open a mushroom farm, and you don't want to, yes, it's a pain in the [censored], but you could always move back and resume your previous life after a few years if it doesn't work out. Kids? Not so much. You knock over that first domino and there's no going back.

"People say that not having kids is selfish. I can't think of anything more selfish than having kids. Nothing wrong with that but lets keep it straight. I've gotten in several arguments at work for not ride-sharing, driving an SUV, etc. (The SUV is absolutely necessary in my line of work BTW) I tell them that their kids and their kids kids and so on, will use more resources than my SUV ever will. "That's different" they say. I'm like, "What you're really saying is that you have more right to those resources than I do." and so on."

Well, freefall...even as the owner of a Honda Insight that gets 65 mpg, I say bless you, thank you, for not contributing to overpopulation. If you counted the resources your potential kid(s) might use, and then those of any kid(s) your kid(s) might have, you could drive a Hummer the rest of your life and still have less impact --- as long as you remain CF. Yes, having nearly 7 billion people on the planet is awful, but when people think about overpopulation, they tend to think about those folks over in Africa with their 8 or 9 kids. And yeah, for those Africans, it is a very difficult life, because local customs and lack of birth control dictate that "that's just how it is" and it causes hunger and health problems, etc., etc. But it's us Westerners who are really the cause of the larger global problem re: overpopulation, in terms of the impact we have on resources and the planet.

Stick to your guns!

Elise

[/quote]

This is really accurate. We are expected to cut parents with kids all sorts of slack for their kids behavior. It really is like badly behaved pets in public. Just imagine a dog, even a guide dog, howling and barking and running around a restaurant! The dog, and the blind guy, would be dining on the sidewalk! I know, kids are human (to their parents at least) and all that but they really are a lifestyle choice these days and should be regarded as such. It's like when people are late or missing at work and it's a kids thing. That's fine, as long as I get the same slack when my lifestyle choices keep me late or absent. Think of all the things that CF people do that might interfere with timely arrivals at work... Sleeping in peace, fooling around, having a leisurely breakfast and so on. Can you imagine showing up two hours late and saying, "Well, you know, we don't have kids so we had to sleep in a bit, knock one out, then fix a nice breakfast. You know how it is. Can someone fill me in?" Heh, heh. [/quote]

Hey Freefall,

You sound like such a catch --- articulate, "This American Life" fan, thoughtful! You live in California, according to your profile. Have you thought about joining a "No Kidding " group or joining/starting a Childfree Meetup? I organize a CF meetup for central New England. Even though a lot of the members are in couples (married or not), lots of them have CF pals and it's just a great way to network. If all of this can happen in exurban New England, I bet there's much more going on in California.

Also, I can't say enough about internet dating. I'm getting married next month to a fab (snipped) CF guy I met on Match.com in late 2002, after spending about 18 months doing nothing but internet dating (after leaving my previous marriage --- CF, yes, but he had alcohol problems). I really did it up --- over those 18 months, I corresponded with about 100 guys, had 30 first dates, and had two relationships, lasting a few months each, before meeting my now-fiance. It was a total blast, and a really good thing for me personally, as I'd met my first husband at 19 and had never done much in the dating department at all.

I know it's probably more difficult to find a CF woman than a CF man (I think a fairly large minority of guys, if they've given it a tiny bit of thought, tend to see the reasoning behind it), but...get out there, try it! The CF dating sites (like dinklink) *are* pretty small in scale. I would try one of the big grand-daddy sites like Match.com. If you're detailed in writing your profile, and you go out looking (as opposed to just waiting for the right people to find your profile), you might surprise yourself. The sheer numbers represented by a site like Match will only work in your favor...particularly if you'd be willing to date a woman in her 40s, not the baby-rabies-addled 30s, like your ex.

Good luck!

Elise

Hi Bonsai,

So true about the ex. Babies are just a fun concept and I don't think she really has any idea what they might do to her life. But I don't think it's a rational decision... It's kind of gut, like "I'm hungry" or I'm cold".

Gee thanks! Gosh, I feel like kind of a "catch" but the CF thing is like garlic for vampires. OK, maybe not the best analogy but you get my drift. Something about me and my job seems to be attractive (natural history filmmaker, homeowner, work keeps me very fit) to potential mommies. I think they see me spending hours waiting for an animal to emerge from a burrow or fitting all that complicated camera gear together and think, "Oh, he's so patient and handy!" (OK, this isn't a guess, I've heard this or variations of). Truth is I love animals and wild places and great gear and don't want anything to take that away from me. Yeah, I'm a guy <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sounds selfish but I feel like I'm bringing a whole world to people that they never get to see and making a real contribution. Hence, the SUV for moving all that gear around yet keeping it locked up and under wraps. Arghhhh. Also, the lifestyle doesn't leave all sorts of room for online dating.

The thing is, what I do is constantly throwing in my face what too many people are doing to the place. We are literally consuming and polluting our place out of house and home. Not exactly a great place of inspiration for starting a family... Although I get the, "All the things I could pass on to our kids" argument. A friend at the gym the other week said my decision was a "waste of great genes..." I took the compliment and moved on. Forgive the rant, I've been in the field for a week and all this stuff is kind of fresh. I really appreciate the thoughtful and non-judgemental forum here.

FF