During my time here I have seen at least five posts about husband's changing their minds. Often the poster states that the husband, " deep down wanted a child/children and assumed that the wife A. would change her mind or B. was saying they didn't want children yet. I have discussed these concerns with my own husband who agreed to put our child-free proclamation into our wedding vows ( I wanted him to realize how strongly I felt and to be certain he was with me!) it truly freaks me out that a man could enter into a marriage with such a patronizing attitude toward his wife. I guess my question is how could a person be so silly as to assume that their partner would change their mind about something so important to them regarding an entire LIFESTYLE? I've never heard of a man marrying lesbian assuming she'll change her mind about her sexual orientation or a democrat who considers it important to have shared political ideology with their partner, marrying a republican under the assumtion that their wife would change her political affiliation...I just DO NOT GET IT. Yes, people evolve and change, but generally those with high regard for a certain lifestyle don't stray from their goals or beliefs too often.

Adding it into the vows...now that's an idea

Kat, i thought it would reinforce the seriousness of the matter. Think about it for yourself!

Misstalia, unfortunately they aren't entirely to blame. Society has told them that all women will (one day) experience this unignorable biological urge. The TV tells them, their parents tell them, their friends tell them, newspapers tell them. Growing up they are indoctrinated (as us women are) into believing that one day we will experience that biological urge and that urge will surpass any objections to having children. I can understand why when only one person is telling them otherwise (i.e. their partner/wife) that they go with the majority view.

This is why it's good that us childfree are getting more press coverage and are more vocal, other generations will realise that their partner/wife will stick with her convictions.

I didn't have my childfree status put into my vows but I did have any mention of "and when blessed with children" removed from the ceremony. Indeed children weren't mentioned at all.

Wow, You make a good point. I too am very happy to see CFCs coming forward more and more. For our community as a whole, it's something to be celebrated. I still, however, feel as though if a wife tells their husband that he should believe her!

I'm with random, we're all taught at a young age to believe that someday, be it the near or far future women will experience this "biological clock" and it will tick so loud we can't even think about anything else. I like to think as a whole we've evolved beyond that outdated notion but...it seem to be pretty strong even today.

As I see it, it's easier for a guy to change his mind as well. It was once discussed, somewhere on here, about how being a father is a lot easier than being a mother. Father's don't have to carry the child for 9 months, deal with the pains of pregnancy and child birth in general. Then when the baby is born it's not really daddy who is up at all hours of the night feeding and changing diapers either, it's mommy. It's also not uncommon for mom's to be "stay at home moms" where the man is the primary bread winners, and the mother is stuck at home with a screaming tot or infant. So while daddy gets an 8-12 hour break from family life, mommy doesn't get said break until her kids start going to school.

So it's much easier to change your mind when things are pretty simple otherwise. It's not so easy for us as women to change our minds becuase we realize WHY we don't want kids. We usually (not always) don't wanna deal with the pregnancy thing, which is nothing but unadulterated hell, for lack of a better word. It's our bodies that have to endure the tax of having children, not the guys. So with that in mind it's easy for a guy to suddenly hit 40 and have something akin to a mid-life crisis and say "I'm getting old, maybe a kid wouldn't be so bad"

Also if you think about it on a more old fashioned scale, the hype of having a "son" to carry on his gene's and family name has a certain appeal to men. That ideal has been around for as long as human's have been, and back then it was necessary, but not it's not but the ideal somehow still survives.

It's not in all men to believe this, I'm not saying that, just it seems just a lot simpler for guys to change their minds than it is for us women.

by reading it seems that you have so much problems with the guys. carrying the child for 9 months it is not so easy that i understand but i m totally disagree with you that males does not have any responsibility towards the kids, even he is having the responsibility of securing the future of the family. and it is not as much as you think. and he works 8 to 12 hours only for his family. we cannot say it is a break from the family life. And mommy does not get break until her kids start going to school but daddy doesn't get break until his child start earning and become financial independent. suppose his child become financial independent at age of the 25 means he has to work for him till 25 years. After that it is not sure that whether he will get rest or not. As far as question of pregnancy is concern so the mommy has to face the pregnancy pain but at that time the father has to face mental pain. And the mental pain is more danger than physical pain. when the kids born from that time the father has to work for his kids and his family. He thinks 24X7 365 about securing the present and future of his family. so both mommy and daddy's works are equal. One has to bear the pain physically and one has to bear it mentally.comparing them and taking the side of one will become the injustice for another one. thanx.

As I discussed here before, I had a 5 year relationship end because of the kids issue. When we were breaking up, he admitted that he went along with no kids on the assumption I'd change my mind. In my case, I lost all respect for him when he said that. Basically, he was saying I don't know my own mind. I am a very self-aware person, so him thinking I would change my mind was insulting. He clearly didn't understand me at all, especially when it was clear I have no desire to be around kids. I guess in the end, he finally realized I was serious and that led to him ending it. I agree that there is a lot of societal/family pressure. All the women in his family were very kid-oriented, so I am sure they fed him tripe, like, she will eventually come around, all woman wants kids, her biological clock will start ticking, etc. when I was not around. Still, it is strange that he was more willing to listen to and believe them, than me, the one who would be expected to have the child.

Sam, I hear what you're saying, but in many cases not only does the woman bear the physical, she also (depending on the situation) has to help with the financial. Double whammy for the woman, often.

Isis, YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH YOUR POST! You gave an example of the scenario I keep hearing on here. I doubt that a man would be focused on a certain lifestyle himself and then do a 360 that often. I believe that most cases are like your's: A man patronizingly assumes that his girlfriend/wife doesn't realize that she wants them "justyet." As you said it's very insulting because it's almost as though he thought you were some immature child yourself who thinks they know what they want. Ok that was a total rant on my part...lol.

for starters, even without a kid a father has to work to secure his wife and his future. So even if him and his beloved decided against children guess what? He'd still be working 9-12 hours for his wife, so either way he's working for somebody if not himself. If he lived alone he'd still be working his [censored] off to secure his OWN future, so what difference is it either way?

I never implied fathers are unconcerned, that'd be a terrible assumption. But between work and staying at home with a screaming tot, work is the lesser of two evils in a sense. Fathers care, but their just not the ones who deal with booboos or earaches, mostly that's a mothers job. I'm not saying it ALWAYS happens like that, there are exceptions to any situation, but still. It's easier being a dad in my eyes than it is being a mother. Mothers not only have physical pain but mental stress and pain as well.

It's impolite to assume that only fathers feel mental pain, mothers feel it too.

Misstalia - Thanks. At least that incident made me see him in a different light. Once I realized he did not truly understand me, I realized I was much better off without him. I then was able to move on. A few friends have said that maybe he thought if he threatened to end it, I would agree to have a kid. So, even at that point he may have still thought I would change my mind. Obviously, that did not happen. If that is true, it is kind of sad he would want to have a kid via ultimatum like that. Sammuel - Many moms also work outside of the home these days, some even earn more than their partners. Still, various studies show that even when both parents work, the mom does more at home. Moms also worry constantly about their children's well being, not just dads. The effects of raising children generally do not impact both parents equally. The workplace is one example. Mothers who work tend to get paid less and receive fewer promotions, because their childcare responsibilities often conflict with their work. Of course there are some cases where the father may be a single dad or stay home with the kids, but these are exceptions.

really interesting posts.
Sam , I see where you're coming from, but from my experience this is a completely outdated view.
ALL the women I know with kids went back to work after the few months maternal leave ( sorry, except people like my mother, and her generation, where the norm seems to be after school age, if ever ), and women do seem to bear the most burden of child rearing.

And please don't think I'm anti men, but in general, men are less mature than women.
I don't know wether this has been a growing up thing ie traditionally boys were spoilt, didn't do chores in the home, and were given greater opportunities for a working life, or if, well, THAT'S JUST THE WAY THEY ARE....;-D
So their focus when growing up was anything but kids and home .

Things are changing now, with equality etc. but here in Greece, the wheels of change are slow. they still have very old fashioned values, the difference being, divorce is huge now.
Women, who have jobs of their own outside home, are finally saying ' Hang on a minute....'

We've had posts before about how immature some of our husbands are, mine included, love him to bits, but omg.
His world centres around him, and I think that's the problem we all have at times.
If we REALLY want something - wether it's kids or whatever - the empathy and consideration we have for another ( however much loved ) goes out the window. Our wishes can blind us to everything else.

That's why such a strong emotion as love - they say it's blind, - because all sense of reason goes out the window, as the emotional roller coaster is all about how WE feel at the time.
afterwards, often regretting some things done or said. ( said it , done it, bought the tee shirt, a few times :-)

My point, as I've digressed a bit, is what many of you have said - if you don't want the same things in a relationship, then it isn't going to work.
The hard part is if you've been 'duped' in a way,( eg. the kids issue ) to commit to marriage, and then have the pain of splitting, and finding new love at an older stage in your life.
But, as they say, that's life. A bowl of cherries ? I think not.

For me that's the value of finding like minded people ( like yourselves, hoorah ! ) and appreciating those around you who love you, and love you back.
And if those who say they love you, but give you pain and heartache in an already unforgiving world... get out sister.
We have one life. try and get the best of it before regret and zimmer frames focus large.

MissItalia I totally agree he "should believe her".

BUT, and it's a very big BUT :-D It didn't matter how many times I actively encouraged my ex-husband to go out and see his mates (it's healthy after all) he couldn't believe I wasn't doing it out of some sense of obligation because his mum would cry anytime his dad was away for more than an hour!

Take how long a man has lived prior to knowing the women he marries, then double it, and that is the age he will be before you have a chance of getting through to him that you are not the same as all the other women he grew up with (sisters, mums, grans etc).

Indoctrination is fairly easy to do, a lot harder to undo!