BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Atheist Random Thoughts

Les, I am glad that you will be continuing to contribute. I've been educated by your ideas and enlightened by your writing. Thanks for the hours of learning that you've given me.

Thank you Connie for your kind words.

Lately, as in today, while out in nature I have been giving many "random thoughts" to the idea/feeling that the more that I see in nature and the inter-relationship of all things sentient and non-sentient the more I believe that (in the terminology of Darwin's time) that there never was a "First Cause,"/Creator of the Universe. Alas, I also am inclined to think that in this instance the proof will never be in the (primeval) pudding...

Can you imagine and come to terms with the concept that there may have been no Creator?

Hi Les,

When last did you read Voltaire? You may also enjoy chewing over a lot of what he has to say ... testing and thought provoking and all sorts of things depending on where a person starts from and anywhere seems to be a good starting point. Thoughts and beliefs and opinions just keep twisting and rollercoasting (for me anyway)

Have to watch out for those circular arguments that catch us all though. BTW, it was he who said that if God didn't exist it would be necessary for man to invent him.

Bertrand Russell? Another tester of note. There isn't enough time and space for me to tussle with them too often or I would become more absent minded and disparate than I already am in my collective thinking. And so my list goes on! Read some Dostoevsky again, lots of divided opinions there too but another cornucopia of life observations through his characters for me, and also pertinent to the debates on A/A and any -thism in the long run.

No defence or explantions here - just commentary.

Humble greetings-

Hi Lestie and all,

The last time that I read Voltiare was when the U.S. was still deeply involved in as Kenny Rodgers sung "that crazy Asian war."-or as I am want to say, America's incursion in Vietnam's Civil War.

It was when I was as a high schooler seeking a self-identity and briefly went through a "Deist stage." It was then that I read a lot of (ok, make that some) Voltaire, Locke, Rousseau, Montesquieu, Paine, and Diderot but not very much of Robespierre as I wanted to keep my head intact. Then I was off and wondering with the Transcendalists for a while...

Circular arguments are so circular and they make not only the world but minds go round and round... which for some reason reminds me of an idea that I was exposed to while taking the PSATs and was asked to discuss in essay form "the problem with open mindedness is that your brains may fall out."

In keeping with that great Voltaire quote that you provided, who said "if we were not afraid of death, I do not believe that the idea of immortality would ever have arisen?"

Got me totally stumped with that one Les.

But see I am not afraid of death personally and go with Freddy Mercury and his plea of "who wants to live forever!" Now. That brings on some other thinking on terminal illnesses and immortality and all. I have absolutely no idea how it must feel to have been diagnosed with something of this nature - a terminal illness like cancer or more horrifying for me to lose my mind to Alzheimers while being quite 'fine' physically. Still could that not lead to another aspect of nothingness?

And so where does reincarnation fit into this soup? and Karma? and euthanasia? and living wills? I see these subjects all connected as disparate as they seem.

You have read more widely than I have in philosophy so have a better foundation on which to build your arguments in terms of using the thinking of the acknowledged greats to formulate your own stand/s and point/s of view; so I can only comment from my more narrow view of this fascinating world.

It has to be a matter of seeing the life through the specs we have on and even the simplest 'philosophy' can turn a trick. Just an example here (jumping from point to point now...) I had a man helping me (working for me) in the garden (and my home) once who was illiterate but street smart and quite frankly wise. I would love to tell you so much more about him (perhaps another time) but Simon was one to just get on with it with no fuss. No questions. No comments. No opinions. If a job had to be done it was done. Any job, nice or not. No indignation. No attitude. What a fine person he was (passed on two years ago).

Anyway, we were discussing the merits and demerits of square and round spade/shovels for the garden and I was fussing as I can at times about the round was better than the straight because yada yada yada. As usual he kept his counsel and smiled as we worked alongside each other preparing a vege bed I think. Anyway when I asked him what he thought he paused and looked at me and said "The square one is in the shops isn't it?"

I miss my conversations with Simon who died peacefully in his sleep having said goodbye to everyone. But as usual I digress in sweet memory but hope I illustrate a point or so.

On more mature thought, I too would like to die either peacefully or quickly and not a drawn out painful or in a machine assisted way - so guess yes, I do fear such a death.

Cheers

P S Les about your brains falling out.

The first time I came across that idea was a quote from someone in the Australian press. I will stand to be correctd on some facts but the gist of the story is correct. There w'as a picture of contestants for Mrs Sydney Pregnant Competition.'

On the ramp in high heels were paraded about 8 of the finalists in this competition, all very pretty women, all 8 months plus pregnant (one of the rules of entry) and all in a standard yellow bikini swimming costume. Well. What dignity was there that day I have yet to find, but that was his comment ... "The thing about being too open-minded is that your brains not might but do fall out!" I shuddered and so agreed.

Cheers

All of the following quotes, including the previously mentioned one, are from a guy whose brains were definitely not falling out, Bertrand Russell.

"If we were not afraid of death, I do not believe that the idea of immortality would ever have arisen."

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so."

"It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this."

"In the part of this universe that we know there is great injustice, and often the good suffer, and often the wicked prosper, and one hardly knows which of those is the more annoying."

"If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way."

Thanks for putting me out of my misery Les! I should have recognised something of it though I must admit Oscar Wilde sprang to mind at first but then 'spranged' back again not knowing. I wonder what Oscar @id did say on death and life along these lines. I think I will go and do some look-see on it.
Cheers

Both a product of his times and a producer of his times, Voltaire was a Deist- albeit with an iconoclastic perspective and attitude. To say the least, he was not a supporter of organized religions and had many harsh yet witty words directly about Christianity which I purposely did not include here.
Below are many Voltaireisms:


"The truths of religion are never so well understood as by
those who have lost the power of reasoning."

"Common sense is not so common."

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."

"Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe."

"God is a comedian, playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."

"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be."

"No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking."

"Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense."

"One great use of words is to hide our thoughts."

"Prejudices are what fools use for reason."

"Superstition is to religion what astrology is to astronomy the mad daughter of a wise mother. These daughters have too long dominated the earth."

"The very impossibility in which I find myself to prove that God is not, discovers to me his existence."

"I hate women because they always know where things are."

That last one makes him a wise man indeed!

Much grist for the mill Les, opens up so much for discussion there is just not enough time in this century left. Thanks so much for the reminders and the new stuff too.
Cheers