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Clarence Darrow is that lawyer, wit, and agnostic, who will be brought back to life in my article for next week unless I go in some other direction.
Darrow in addition to the Scopes trial gained fame for his defense of Leopold and Loeb, teenagers who "thrill killed" a younger teenager- Darrow argued against their receiving the death penality and they got a life sentence instead.

Perhaps his most famous "agnostic" quote is:

I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure- that is all agnosticism means.

Darrow with this remark was adeptly putting both atheists and theists on the defensive in their believing that to be an agnostic one was being "wishy-washy"/a "fence sitter."

One of my articles ( maybe the next one with Darrow's quote as the centerpiece if I do not do a straight Darrow one?) will make the case that many agnostics are not "wishy-washy" as to be "without knowledge" is just the human state of being/existence and will probably remain that way from "here to eternity."

Thanks for that Les. Very interesting - and I have heard the name though could never have recalled it -in the same way that you tend to do better in quizzes that give you several answers as options and you think - aha! It's him!

Your last paragraph left me feeling wistful actually, because without that certainty, or 'faith' - which of course can only ever be based on ignorance though spiced with hope, upbringing and possibly experience,if you have had a 'visitation' or witnessed a 'miracle' for example - then you can only find comfort in the surety that you will never know. And I'm not sure that is very comforting! But then, I'm not sure about anything, which perhaps is what agnosticism is all about. It does leave the door open for possibility however? Atheism presumably says the door is firmly shut.

Hi Eileen and all,

You mentioned what you believe to be a few sources where "faith may arise from.

So, if you are a person of "faith" what was its origin?

So, if you are not a person of "faith" where do you think is its source for those that are.

I believe, except for some exceptions, that "faith" is a familial/nurture/social/cultural construct.


As to the differences between atheists and agnostics and the "door" analogy I will address that pretty soon.

Ah - where is faith from? I agree with your criteria, which seem to suggest that faith or belief in a deity, or an 'other' arises from your upbringing and people around you, and ultimately, in THEIR beliefs. But on a personal level - faith, or lack thereof is so personal after all - I have had certain, solitary experiences that definitely made me wonder.

And those experiences tended to arise from natural phenomena, not least after partaking of natural substances, or natural events - an inspiring sunset, a grand landscape, even a gathering of tadpoles, some with tiny legs - well you know what I mean, Les, I imagine. And then there is birdsong - and I love birds! Many English writers were pantheists, they saw God in nature all around them. I'm not sure if I see God - but I definitely see the tadpoles.

Clarence Darrow - one of the heroes of my youth. My favourite quote: Lost causes are the only ones worth fighting for.

But I also like:
I never wanted to see anybody die, but there are a few obituary notices I have read with pleasure.

Mona, Clarence Darrow was also one of the heroes of my youth- I remember reading Clarence Darrow for the Defense and being so impressed by his championing the causes of the underdogs.
The quotes of his that you cited are so wonderfully Darrow. Another one that I really like, I believe made particularly in reference to Warren G. Harding and Calvin Coolidge is "When I was a boy I was told anybody could become president. Now I am beginning to believe it."

Eileen, I am with you. In nature I see plenty of NATURE bringing forth in me a sense of JOY, WONDER, MIRACLES, and MAGIC (in the figurative sense), not really mattering what the source of it ALL is.

Eileen said, Your last paragraph left me feeling wistful actually, because without that certainty, or 'faith' - which of course can only ever be based on ignorance though spiced with hope, upbringing and possibly experience,if you have had a 'visitation' or witnessed a 'miracle' for example - then you can only find comfort in the surety that you will never know. And I'm not sure that is very comforting! But then, I'm not sure about anything, which perhaps is what agnosticism is all about. It does leave the door open for possibility however? Atheism presumably says the door is firmly shut.

As a generalization, for atheists, particularly of the "hard" variety as they are "fundementally" dogmatic, the door is "firmly shut." For atheistic agnostics like myself, as long as something has not been "proven" yet, one way or another, but may in the future, albeit highly unlikely, the door is not "firmly shut" but more than likely nothing will ever be scientifically placed in "evidence" to alter its position. There are other agnostics who may under certain variables (mostly situational personal ones like their own failing health as some "writing is on the wall" for them becomes a reality) may be less stringent in their criteria as to whether their door will be opened.

Agnostic literally means WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE. It normally refers to whether there is a god(s) or not but I prefer to extend that definition to EVERYTHING that has not been scientifically proven one way or the other. Consequently, I am still holding onto some hope that the Loch Ness Monster does indeed exist! As for if there will ever be proof that there is such a thing as a deity, I am not holding my breath!

Thank you for that Les - my dad was always convinced there was a coterie of plesiosauruses (sp?) - marine dinosaurs - left over from the jurassic period, or a long time ago at least, in Loch Ness! It is so deep, virtually unfathomable. Just like faith, really!

I love Scotland and each time I have been on the shores of Loch Ness I have scanned the water in vain for a sign! So yes - definitely just like faith.

My biggest imponderable as a child was always - why am I me?

Obviously the big one is - why am I (we) here? But I can never get my head round - why wasn't I born someone else? Or why was this peculiar person - me - born at all?

It always felt such a huge responsibility I had to stop thinking about it and just get on with my (little) life!

Quite what label I would put on myself I am not sure, but my Catholic upbringing certainly made me question the world - and how we all got here!!!

Hi Eileen and all,

Labels might not be all that important as long as you know who you are and who you are not. The "why" of it all probably will never be known. Being an inquisitive positive "doubter" is something that Clarence Darrow would have seen as a virtue in any human being. It's the KNOW-IT-ALL with no proof know-it-alls that he had trouble with- be they atheistic or theistic.

Long live (or not) "unfathomable" Nessie!

In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive
They may find...

Now it's been 10,000 years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what he never knew
Now man's reign is through
But through the eternal night
The twinkling of starlight
So very far away
Maybe it's only yesterday

In the year 2525...

Zager and Evans (sounds more like a brand of orange marmalade
than pop star one hit wonders)


I am gearing up for a "What else am I agnostic about" article
so...

Is it inevitable that MAN will always be the DOMINANT species on the planet?

(as for "superior" species that just never was)