BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids My choice is costing me my marriage

Dear Ladies, and most hopefully gentlemen. My most sincere apologies for this lengthy post, but I really need to get some heartache out, and I need help with it. I am a female, pushing 28, grew up in a rather dysfunctional family where father hated me (in the USSR, my father HAD to marry my mother whom he knocked up, or be kicked out of Uni, party, etc). Anyhow, I have always been a "tomboy", having grown up on a military base, with almost no other children in the vicinity, literally only seeing other kids in town on Christmas pageants where my parents would bring me. Never had a Barbie in my life, never had any interest to have it. After USSR broke down, my parents moved, so I grew up in a different country. I don't know whether the collapse of the country my father was serving has been a factor, or the move as such, but my father didn't seem to have found himself in "free society". He was out of the job most of the time, and my mother, raised in belief that divorce is for those who trait Motherland, had to pull our finances pretty much ever since. However, I went to a good school -- as children of people that should have not have had kids together would understand, -- did everything possible to make them proud. Straight As, multiple scholarships, international exchange programs, blah blah... Started Uni at 17. Few months into that, my long-suffering mother says she "has had enough", drops everything and emigrates a few thousand miles away. Shortly after my father shows me to the door. Haven't seen him since, even though he still lives in my mother's flat. Anyway, while working to pull myself through school, and trying to find some kind of "shelter", I ended up in a religious cult, in a different part of the world. Managed to get out, got back to Uni. It was there that I've lost my first relationship to a baby. I was 21 when my then best friend/partner had a baby. Still living in a post-totalitarian society, the social pressure was, and still is, overwhelming there to get married and to have kids. It IS like being in the MadMen episode there, except with no income. Not just disposable. Women are treated as disabled if they don't have children. Most of my peers had a child by the time they were 21 -- that is, before they could legally drink in America. My friend was one of them. We have always been "delightfully quirky" as two individuals, and seemed to have an understanding of each other on some telepathic level. She got pregnant from her husband, and we were all very excited for her. The horror came when she had her baby. First time I've seen it made me sick. It was not an ugly baby, but it made me sick, as in vomit. In a space of a few moments I realized that because of this baby, she will never again be there for me in the same way, and wouldn't want me to be there for her. That episode threw me into some baby-panic mode -- for four years after, I couldn't see a pic of a baby without cringing, getting hands sweaty, or getting queasy. I had therapy, and it helped. About a months before she said she was pregnant, I actually found out that I got pregnant too (condom mis-function being my wildest guess, as I was a freak of nature about them, never leaving the house without one), I did book myself in for an abortion, but ended up having a miscarriage two days before that. Please don't bash me for this, but I think it was one of the luckiest things that has ever happened to me. But back to the story. Living in that country was becoming more and more unbearable pressure-wise, so I sought greener pastures abroad. I moved to Britain, and started a relationship with a lovely guy, who has become my best friend. Myself being only 22 at that point, and very early in our relationship, I suppose it did not strike either of us to have a "baby" discussion. And when we did, and I said that I did not really see myself having kids, and that I seem to have a "dislike" for newborns, we were left a bit bemused. Seeing my old friends'life after having a child made me realise I woul'd kill myself in two weeks or less of it. Not even mentioning career/finance/health/time/social life implications of it. Just serving as a milk jug/puke pillow/butt wipe 27/7 was not for me. But we were both young, and decided to wait and see how it goes, reverting to an "open relationship". While relationship was getting better and better, the desire of having children was diminishing by day. So we called it quits. Amicably, mutually, while actually continuing to live in the same house. And then I met my present-day husband. I was not looking for a relationship -- still being 24 then, but he just wouldn't give up :) And, to be fair, I really liked him. I was in love first, then realizing that "in" disappeared somewhere, and a thought of seeing myself getting old with this guy started putting a big smile on my face. I have been an active and vocal advocate of child-free life, I told him that I honestly, sincerely, fore-mostly never want to be a mother, and that my previous "meaningful" relationship has fallen fault of this decision. I spoke of my views more than Scientologists and Jehovah's wittinesses put together! To his friends, colleagues, family. I do not know exactly when I decided not to have children, I suppose, like many people who "knew that one day they'd want to", I knew that for me "that day will never come". But gradually, as my visa was running out, and I did not want to renew it -- call me fussy, but I didn't particularly like living in UK. I wanted to try to move to Spain, where my mother lived (we have reconnected, and are now forging a fairly good relationship, actually), or come back to Ukraine or maybe other post-soviet block countries. Once again, I made no secrets of such plans. It turned out I was too old to qualify to join my mother, so I was preparing to go "back to the USSR". That move would have rendered my relationship obsolete, and heartbreaking as it were, I didn't see any other options. My then boyfriend, however, had a plan. He said if I marry him, he can take me to Spain AND we could be together. At first I called him insane and dismissed it, but yet again, he was rather sure of it. At the age of 25, I was diagnosed with cervical cancer. I told the gyno who delivered the news that I want a hysterectomy (probably 3rd time I told just HER about it), but she said that my BF might just run away if I had it. I got hurt and offended, but for one reason or another, "hysterectomy -- and no-one will ever want you, he will run for the woods" was the general belief in the air. And, this would probably be the time to mention that indeed, purely from the look in his eyes, and lip slightly tremble at the word, I didn't think he liked that idea. But he was firm in not taking sides. And I didn't like the idea of being left alone with cancer, or shortly after... Anyway, along the discussions/consultancies, I was persuaded that an innovative fertility-sparing option was better for me -- albeit a more challenging operation to perform, for me as a patient it was a "candy": less time, no need for blood transfusion, micro-scarring, same success rate as hysterectomy, and I still don't have to have any kids if i don't want to, but would have an option if one day I changed my mind. Joy to the world on my bf's part, off for the operation I go. With minor, more funny than anything, exceptions, it went great. And I got the all clear, and we got married, and we moved to Spain, where he's got a fantastic job. It started to look like things are working out for me. However, the post-op situation was soon proven to be not at all as good as expected. I was having bleedings, spottings, I'd bleed after I poop -- every time it would happen I would think and fear the worst. Anyone who has ever had any cancer will know exactly what I am talking about... One could say I was regretting not pushing for a hysterectomy back then, but all the results were coming back great and clear, so I couldn't justify moaning too much. Except to my mom. Up until yesterday, my marriage, our two wonderful cats, the actual fun we have together, the understanding, the close intimacy -- all have been perfect. Or so I thought... Yesterday I got my last follow-up results, and there were "borderline abnormalities" in my last sample. The doctor said so far it is nothing to worry about, we have to sit and wait for 6 months or so. Now, for a woman who has never had any desire whetsoever to have children, to sit and wait till "it gets worse" is not quite a fun option. Especially in the context of what "worse" will actually mean here. So yesterday, I told my husband that I am positively sick of all these symptoms just coming and going at will, and no one having any answers to my question, because the operation is new, and because "sometimes things just happen". If my cancer comes back, I won't have two chances to rub together. And my life-expectancy will drop to about 36 weeks. I do not want to sit and wait, I want a hysterectomy. Now. Straight away. This way, if this cancer were to come back, to myself, I will know that I have done everything I could to prevent it. I asked for his understanding and support, and that is when my world of cards, once again, fell apart. In 3 years that we have been together, we had our rough times, (we even went through counselling, and I went through it on my own), he has stood by me through cancer, and nursed me back to health, but I have always thought that since we went through this, we can go through everything. Together. I was wrong. Yesterday, it emerged, that the man I wanted to grow old with would actually one day want to have children. He always said he wasn't fussed about them, and was never sure if he wanted them, and I actually grew to think that he was enjoying our cat-full child-free family just as much as I did. I have a proven track record of at least 8 years of not wanting children. I have never had any doubt whatsoever about it. I was pregnant. I had cancer. I did gave in to keeping fertility 3 years ago to see maybe the marriage, cancer survival, forging new family ties -- [u]anything[/u] of it would change my mind. It didn't. And I just don't know what, short of me being the only woman left on the planet, will have to happen to make me have it. Most I can say I could be persuaded to do is adopt a toddler some 15 years onwards, but he said that wasn't enough for him. But I really REALLY really do not want to be a "mommy", am repelled by surrogacy idea much more than by own pregnancy -- not to offend anyone, but I think IVF and creation of life should be left to a "mystery", it is not up to humans to decide. And I believe the only reason why people should have children is because THEY (especially women) want them, not to keep a partner at bay. So, long story short -- in a space of one day, I have realized I have lost another relationship to babies. It is babies 3 -- 0 Muppet so far :( We will be talking it through over the next few weeks, but I really do not see things resolving. I do not think I should risk my health, my life, my integrity by lying to my husband about having children in future, and I too, tend to think that once he had voiced this desire, there is no turning back :( I would really love to hear from men on this one -- and from women too. I am back at square one now -- I feel soon I will be 29, divorced, hopefully with hysterectomy and not with cancer. But where would I go from there???

Welcome Muppet and thank you for your story. I am struck by the clarity with which you write and the clarity with which you assess your life to date, stating what has happened and not apportioning blame.

It strikes me that you have had the "where do I go from here?" question several times in your life, and each time you have found a direction. I would ask where your stength comes from, what matters to you most in life, whether you can be happy on your own or whether a relationship feels crucial to your happiness.

What came to mind as I was reading your story was Byron Katie's "The Work". There is a separate thread on this under Self Development (I think). I have put a couple of links you may find useful below - if your husband is up for it (it's great to do it with another person who can ask you the questions)you could try doing the Judge Your Neighbour worksheet together. If he is not it may be a tool you find useful in exploring your own questions. This is just a suggestion, so no worries if it does not feel right for you.

How To Do The Work (audio)
Judge Your Neighbour Worksheet
The Do The Work Helpline (free)

My dearest Muppet, I'm so sorry for your troubles. To be dealing with such a scary situation (cancer), and to have it all tied into your relationship is just another slap in the face. I'm not sure if I have much in the way of advice. Occasionally, I'll discuss something I read on here with my husband, and this is such an occasion. (A little background on our relationship: he would have liked kids, I've always been adamantly against having them, and he chose to marry me anyway. So far, we've been happily married for 8 years, and he still insists he'd rather have me. I silently live with the fear that he'll change his mind one day, and I come here for support.)

Anyway, I was telling him how it reminded me of when I was trying to get my tubes tied, but I couldn't find a doctor to do it for me (ended up having to have 2 abortions during our marriage). They all kept saying, "try this first... give this a shot... how about an IUD?"... ANYTHING to preserve this "precious" fertility I wanted nothing to do with. I know the situation doesn't even begin to compare with cancer, but the pressure to always do the lesser thing is often forced on us women. His response was, "If it had been as serious as cancer, I'd of 100% supported you in pushing for a hysterectomy." Of course, he doesn't really care too much about my uterus. So I said, "What if it was my breasts? What if I had breast cancer? Sometimes they can just do a lumpectomy, but I wouldn't want to risk that. I'd just want a full mastectomy. I'd rather be boobless and here. How would you feel about that?" For me, it was a rhetorical question. I know my husband LOVES my boobs. He's a boob man (sorry if this is TMI). I expected his silence, and the look on his face that said "NOOOO! Not the boobies!" But, he finally spoke, "I agree. I'd rather have you."

So, there is the man's perspective you wanted. He should want you healthy and with him above all else. I can't tell you what to do, but I know I couldn't wait on something like that. You know, people say all kinds of things about us. They say we are immature, selfish, crazy, etc... but who are the immature, selfish, crazy ones? Us, or the people who promised to love us no matter what, while secretly hoping they can change our minds?

I know it's all so daunting right now. I'm about your age and the idea of my marriage ending and having to start all over is... I can't think of anything worse... except maybe having a baby. We are here for you though, and the whole wide world is still waiting for you:)

Muppet, you have had to put up with an awful lot in a relatively short life. And you sound incredibly strong - you've had to be - but have done so well for yourself considering your childhood.

Dolyn gave a great response, and I can't really add much, other than don't stress about the age thing where it comes to finding relationships. A good friend has just found 'the one' and they are both in their fifties, and I know another man met his second wife when he was 71 after being widowed at 69.
I agree with Dolyn. The relationship is everything, and if your husband and you can't agree on a fundamental question such as children at a time when it may affect your health, things will only get worse in the future.
Plus, your health is everything, and my husband agrees that if we were in the same situation, he would want me to have a hysterectomy, rather than 6 months wait of more stress, and the possibility of a worse scenario at the end of that.
Do what's best for you - you would regret it if you didn't - because life is short enough as it is.
I will be thinking of you, and sending best wishes, for what is an extremely difficult time.

Dear Ladies, many many thanks for your responses. It means so much to be heard, and understood, not just "listened to", having your thoughts/feelings secretly dismissed as nonsense. Which seems more often than not in the case with doctors, for one reason or another. Be it a hysterectomy (even if medically necessary), a tubal, an abortion... I am at a bit of a low right now, but I felt I have spent last three thousand days, every one of them, not living, but having to fight, with tooth and nail, for the right to exist while maintaining my views. Even now, I know I want to, really really want to have a hysterectomy -- but the idea of having to go back to the hospitals, to fight with doctors who seem to much rather have me dead, or surviving on drips and a neurotic freak than sterile... the idea just makes me sick in the stomach... And it feels so cold, so rustily-rigid, that I will, yet again, have to do what IS right for ME, on my own. I actually now think I made a big mistake of bringing my now husband to my initial consultation re cancer. I myself would have dismissed the option as nonsense, but he ended up asking ALL the questions, about the things I had NO INTEREST in. I think that if I brought him along now, he would sabotage it somehow. And I always felt that to doctors, his opinion mattered more than mine. As if he owned me. Long gone are the days of women being a second class, eh? Asha -- many thanks for the tip on the Work -- have read it, and will probably try to do it a bit later, when things inside me settle a bit. Because right now, all I can fill it with would be "I don't want him to want to have children" and "how could you?!", and that doesn't seem fair somehow. I love the guy, and I think we had a good run together, and the way husbands go he is absolutely fantastic -- I still get morning tea in bed. But now I actually feel completely let down and betrayed. On one hand, I do appreciate the honesty, but on the other hand -- did he always know it, and did he really, just dismissed not only what I have told him, but the previous heartbreaks of dissolved relationships as nothing? I have struggled with trusting men in better times, but now I really do not feel I can find it in me. We had a talk again yesterday -- I have sent him articles from here, and even forwarded the help-i-hate-being-mom chats to show that having children is not a fun sunny trip to an empty Disneyland with no queues. He somehow seemed to backtrack on his "I think one day I will want to raise something of my own" to "I do not want now, but what if I do want one day? How can I be sure that I wont?" We discussed surrogacy, and he was surprised at me being so fiercely against the idea (not only it still results in making a baby that I don't want, carried by some strange woman that I don't know, it also includes IVF treatments!). And then we discussed adoption again. On which I have a much more favorable view: the thought of "rescuing" a child from a life of misery and mistreatment in some grim system of a grim country does appeal to me very much. And the fact that you adopt them (and I always think foreign adoption) means they won't be that young either. I said that I am open to the idea, pending that prior to anything like that we will either host an exchange student or something similarly temporary -- to see how life with a child will actually affect us. So we have agreed on this, giving ourselves some time over a few weeks to think it over. He said he's thinking of starting therapy again, but I am afraid the moment an "I want kids but my wife doesn't" comes up there, divorce papers will land on the table in two weeks or less. And I do not have it in me right now to have to go to yet another self-absorbed, child-ridden stranger to try and persuade him/her that I do not pose a security threat to any country just because I don't want children. My other concern there is that even in case of an adoption, I view it as a "good deed", and not because I want to be a mother at all. Is it still the same? I have been adopting animals my whole life, and the cats we have now are the most loved furbabies in the world (I don't even think they know they were adopted! :) ) But what if, being ok with the idea theoretically now, at some point I regress? What then? Is it more -- or less fair on my husband? So today I am left with new questions: Will this "maybe" on adoption keep my marriage intact? Or will it, two years more down the line turn into "well nono, I really want my own"? Do I even want to remain married to a man whom I am struggling to trust now?

I'm so sorry you are being forced to go through all this. of course the cancer, but the questioning and second-guessing, as though making your mind up isn't good enough for anyone.

I'm sorry that the person you trusted is asking you to change who your are at your deepest core. I'm also sorry that I'm not near you so we could talk about things that have nothing to do with children because they bore and disgust me too. I would be so lucky to find such a friend as you.

All I can say is, please protect your health and do what you know is best for you. The doctors and the invasion are horrible things to look forward to, but the risk of the cancer returning will be so minimal it will be worth it. Don't sacrifice yourself for some glimmer of a chance that you'll want something you know you've never wanted.

Sadly, don't expect your husband to change. From what I've seen through my own husband and past relationships, men are happy to agree to childlessness in their early twenties to mid-thirties, but as they age and mature they grow a baby fever that I can't comprehend. They didn't want kids at that time, but they did want them later on down the road, they just failed to recognize or mention part to us.

I used to say maybe someday I'd adopt. That was all I could ever muster because I know myself too well. As the years pass I doubt this will happen for many reasons, but most importantly because I'm simply not interested and that feeling has never changed. If you think you could adopt then go on and keep telling him that, but if you're quite certain that it's nice for some people but not for you, telling him that is just postponing the inevitable.

It wasn't fair for these men to change their minds or to lie and say they were ok with something they really weren't, but it's equally unfair for us to tell them what they want to hear just to keep them close for a little bit longer.

Maybe he will come to realize that staying with the person he has grown to know and love is more valuable than creating a new person he doesn't yet know and can't possibly miss. Maybe he can find what he feels he is lacking through volunteering with children or coaching or something, anything to fill that void. I desperately hope so. Please think on it and be honest with him about your true feelings toward adoption, whatever they may be.

Its not easy having cancer surviving and feeling that you have gotten your life back on track only to learn that it might not be the case as you first though it to be, then on top of it to have someone you though was going to be your life partner pull back like that and in short be unsupportive is harder still. I had a hysterectomy before I turned 30, the processes for it had started back in 2003 with my medical team trying to discover what was going wrong with me would take them several years medications and surgeries before they would say "We think You have cancer, but where not sure what type" not the news I was hoping to hear by any means, but it wasn't a shock either (it runs in my family - cervical and ovarian) so more tests but they are all inconclusive. By now I'm bleeding 24/7 and cramping big time. My gyn says to stop the bleeding since nun of the drugs are working she'll do a an endometrial ablation and if that doesn't work in for a hysterectomy I'd go. Well it failed 6 weeks later I was in for the hysterectomy, the pathology results on my ovaries, uterus and cervix came back clean cancer was never found and they never could find out what was going on to cause the bleeding or why the tests where coming back as they where. During all this I meet my hubby, but before we started dating I had asked him if he ever wonted children he said no but if they where in the picture that was fine with him. He didn't wont them and he can't have them so to him children where not something he was interested in if he could well help it. In the early stages he new nothing of what I was going though, till one day out of the blue I announce to him that I am going into have a hysterectomy - shocked the world out of him. He though that we'd developed a strong enough bond that I'd have told him sooner of what was going on, but for me I'd already lost several people who I though of as friends over what was about to happen, that I thought if he wonts to drop me at least it will be a break that I started. Well he didn't leave he stayed, two years later we are married he still isn't pleased that I chose the way I did to tell him what was going on because it hurt him, but he understands my reasoning about it, but it doesn't make it right regardless. Anyhow, its sad that your hubby is as he is but you have made it this far and you will make it further - just remember this marriage might well have been over long before now and had you chosen to have children you might well be a single mom like so many others out there and if that wasn't what you wished you'd be stuck something a life choice that you other wise wouldn't have made for yourself - so count your blessings that you don't have to put a child through divorce and other issues, that you can make a clean break and start a new life with lots of possibilities before you.

Its instinctual for most people to want a child. To make such a decision at such a young age to go childless can be wrought with havoc for some people Most people are not emotionally developed enought to make such decsions and time is the proof of it. This is why physicians have diligently tried to persuade you against hysterectomy because from their viewpoint and experience in reality many women and men wish the decsion of permanent infertility could be reversed at a latter date. The physican that takes this god granted gift away can suffer terrible guilt and they just don't want it hanging over them. As good or bad that any doctor may be in therir practice of medicine, what is core to them is the protection and sustenance of life and its potientials. My brother had a vascectomy, an agreed upon decision between he and his wife due to lack of desire for children. Two years later she divorced him because he could not give her a child. This created immense diffcult for him later with his second wife. They now have on child by invitro fertilization, and one adopted. Turns out he is quite the dad and loves his family life. The decision for vascectomy was based on "love" for his first wife and being willing to sacrafic that life potential. He went though many years of suffering from feelings of betrayal. I suspect that your husband has promised you the moon but perhaps would rather not deliver. That he would risk your health and life for a potential child is quite a clue I would say. He made you a promise as a young man not knowing what the older man may want. Many errors are made in the passion of youth because one cannot see what has yet to be revealed. Often one does not know who one really is and what their life's purpose is until much older. One of the greatest mistakes made in youth is believing you know everything about yourself, your purpose, your intent, your karma, and your passion.... as well as thinking you know the same about your partner. As they say "youth is wasted on the young" You should do what is best for your physical health then let the chips fall where they may. The capacity for love never dies. And if you should live but have to find another to love, then at least you are alive.

Muppet, when I read what you've wrotten, the way you talk about your families and babies, for me it's really clear : motherhood is really not an option for you. With or without hysterectomy. Better no child than some traumatised ones because your husband insist on it against your will. One could even ask if your health problem aren't psychosomatic in fact ; your mind doesn't really want a children, and some unconscious part of the mind guessed your husband wasn't exactly of the same opinion. So in order to be really sure you'll never be a mother, it made your cervix become ill. If that's true, you'll only feel better the day you become sterile, for example after a hysterectomy surgery, isn't it what you really want since the beginning ? I think you're asking the right questions about you mariage, but unfortunatly, I won't be able to help you answering them. But in case you divorce from him, I don't think it's a big issue to be "29, divorced, hopefully with hysterectomy and not with cancer". I'm sure you'll find another partner ; 29 is still young in Spain (people mary at a later age in western Europe than eastern Europe, I know it because I live in an eastern european country). And contrary to what the gyno said, there are lots of men who don't want children, or don't care about (I know it because I'm a men). A good divorce is always better than a bad marriage ; especially one where you end up raising your children that you never wanted... but that doesn't mean you should quit him.

Sorry to hear about your situation but to blunt I must say that if your hubby would leave you over this than he does not reallly love you. Love would stick by you and put your life over any want they may have. The fact that he would risk your life because he thinks he will want kids is completely selfish. What I see when I read your story is big blinking lights saying "HE ONLY SEES HER AS A UTERUS." I am sorry if my words hurt but that is my opinion on the situation.

You sound to me to be a strong woman. I am sure you can make it through what ever comes your way. In the last weekor so my man has been dropping subtle (and not so subtle hints) that he wishes I never got sterilized (had it done 2 1/2 years ago when I was 27). The other day he even told me that I am not normal for wanting kids. I told him "if you want kids there is the door. Because your not having them if you stay with me." Some decisions are just too important to compromise. Best of luck on the situation.

Arrow, you may not have meant it but I am completely insulted that you would imply that I (and many of the other ladies in here) do not know ourselves well enough to make our own life choices. And, btw, a doctors job is not to decide what is right for me! FYI...I have known since I was 14 that I did not want kids, now at 30, not once have I questioned that decision.