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#526471 06/07/09 12:34 AM
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As a society is there anything that we can do to stop abortions?


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I am moving this discussion over to pro-life since this does not seem to be a question open for debate about whether or not to stop abortion but as to HOW to stop abortion.


I believe the only way that abortions will be stopped is if we find a way to prove conclusively that the fetuses are living and thinking infants - and not just clusters of cells.

I used to work in surgery as a surgical tech and when I found out I was pregnant with my daughter one of my surgeons said to me, "oh - so you have a tumor?" Because medically that is what a fetus is until it is born and capable of living on its own, a mass of rapidly growing and dividing cells. (Obviously I did not feel this way - and the doc later apologized to me - which is a minor miracle in and of itself!)

But a person is declared legally dead when brain activity stops. So it would make sense to me that inversely a person should be declared legally alive when brain activity is first detected.


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Originally Posted By: Spirituality&SFFMoviesEd
...I believe the only way that abortions will be stopped is if we find a way to prove conclusively that the fetuses are living and thinking infants - and not just clusters of cells.

...But a person is declared legally dead when brain activity stops. So it would make sense to me that inversely a person should be declared legally alive when brain activity is first detected.


These are excellent points, and I think achieving them would go a long way to changing people's attitudes towards abortion. I also believe that people who don't fit the pro-lifer mold as it is perceived by the general public also need to come out of the pro-life closet.

There is a stereotype that all pro-lifers are Christians with bombs just waiting to blow abortion doctors up. There is a dichotomy in an idea regarding the soul that has infiltrated the Goddess-Spirituality movement that says that spirit lives in everything but the abortion choice shouldn't be questioned (that's not to say all goddess worshipers or Pagans view abortion this simplistically). If divine spirit is in a rock, a tree and the wind, then it's only logical that there is a divine spark of a soul in a fetus. And for various religions isn't this proof of life?

I don't think this is an issue that is important to only one religion or group of people, and my fellow Pagans and others need to step up and point out the flawed logic mentioned above to help break the negative stereotype of pro-lifers. This may not seem important, but I believe if we can lessen the knee-jerk reaction to the term pro-life that it will facilitate needed dialogue.

Of course, this won't convince atheists who think soul talk is all hooey, which takes us back to the need to prove the point of life. But getting anyone to rethink their attitude is a good start.


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I feel that as a society we really can't stop abortions. Whether or not getting abortions is legal, girls and women who really feel it's best that their embryo is aborted will find a way to get it done. Others will feel forced to give birth no matter what, and feel that they live in an oppressed society which lacks compassion for their plight.

Some girls/women feel desperate to conceive and carry a child, others feel desperate not to. Some see human life as sacred - more sacred that other forms of life, such as Trish pointed out, trees, rocks and all of Nature; still others see all life as equally sacred yet temporary. Each and all hold a feeling or an opinion on the issue. Yet, those in all categories who believe in the soul, believe it can never die. (Trish sparked an awesome thing to consider - doesn't life really start with the soul or spirit?)

The core conundrum is in forcing an opinion on everyone else that would drastically alter their lives and bodies. We have the privilege to live in a society where certain freedoms of choice remain intact, even if it means it goes against something that we may personally believe in, or could never willingly take part in. Still other things that cause unwanted or devastating pregnancies are out of our control entirely; like promiscuous sex, incest, failed birth control, and rape. Or just plain ol' "ooops." Isn't this truly where abortion begins?

I guess it all boils down to the human condition. In a perfect world there would be no abortion. In a perfect world, there would be none of the above infractions that lead to abortion. Even still, a perfect world would not be facing dictatorships, over-population, severe deformities, poverty, starvation, disease, foster care horror stories, and the selling of unwanted children. We may not feel that it's seemly, but life is a dirty deal sometimes. Because we as a society can't mandate pristine behaviors and divine intellect, there will always be unwanted pregnancies, unwanted and abused children and misuse of sexuality. Should we somehow gain the ability to shuffle our deck without the need for drama and hard lessons, we would see Heaven on Earth. Until then, the cycle of a race with many, many lessons to learn will continue...

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How about preventing unwanted pregnancies? There will remain some valid reasons for abortion (I have changed my mind regarding late-term abortions, after reading some interesting things after the recent murder of Dr. Tiller) -- a fetus that wouldn't live more than a handful of minutes after birth is, if the mother wishes, imo, a reasonable candidate, for instance -- but really, most elective abortions (after all, spontaneous abortions will occur no matter what -- most people call them miscarriages, but medically, they are spontaneous abortions) are due to someone not using appropriate contraception. If you prevented all those unwanted pregnancies, you would prevent all those abortions.

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I don't think anyone or anything can stop abortion for many reasons. One of the reasons is that abortion is sometimes necessary. If a woman gets raped and pregnant of the rapist, would you keep the baby? I would not. I am sorry to say that, but no woman should in that case. I believe life is very important and no women should take abortion lightly though.

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I think it's going to be difficult with our new science czar John Holdren. Holdren has written,

As United States taxpayers know, income tax laws have long implicitly encouraged marriage and childbearing...Such a pronatalist bias of course is no longer appropriate. In countries that are affluent enough for the majority of citizens to pay taxes, tax laws could be adjusted to favor (instead of penalize) single people, working wives, and small families. Other tax measures might also include high marriage fees, taxes on luxury baby goods and toys, and removal of family allowances where they exist. Other possibilities include the limitation of maternal or educational benefits to two children per family.

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I agree that to try and stop abortions would not be likely, easy, or fair to many women. There are many medical and emotional reasons for abortions. I think the question to focus on is "How to prevent unwanted pregnancies that would result in abortion."

Last edited by Phyllis, Native American; 11/11/09 11:39 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Phyllis, Native American
I agree that to try and stop abortions would not be likely, easy, or fair to many women. There are many medical and emotional reasons for abortions. I think the question to focus on is "How to prevent unwanted pregnancies that would result in abortion."




I agree with your idea and way of thinking Phyllis- not all pregnancies are created equal so it's not a black or white situation. There's a lot of gray to consider.

A stitch in time saves 9- so preventive education is a great first step.




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