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bahrain #470332 11/21/08 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: bahrain
I understand some of what you are saying, but the civil rights issue is nonexistent here because you can still have the same benefits as heterosexuals. Most of this argument is about getting legal benefits.
If you have a job and you have access to good healthcare, etc, then that's all you need. You don't need a marriage to get that.
Love is fine but I have my beliefs and you have yours. I don't believe that being gay is a lifestyle because it's not. That's like saying being gay is a culture. It's not.

It's an act. It's a sexual addiction. Not a lifestyle and I don't care how many people in the world argue this. That's a fact.
You feel you are in love because you are addicted to the way it feels. that's not a lifestyle.
As for the vote, what I'm trying to get across is that the voters voted for the ban. What right does the gay movement have to say that the voters should've had no say and take it to court to anul the propositon. The majority has spoken. Let it go.


The gay movement keeps violating our rights by saying we have no rights to our opinions and to our freedom to vote on measures we choose to vote on.

To me, this movement is just like the hippies. Free love.
and it will be squashed just like they were.

I think it's totally irresponsible and immoral to be pushing this issue on the American public.
As I said, my gay friends even understand this and they don't push their attitudes and their ways on me or others.

My one gay friend describes what he does as a sexual fetish. He even agrees that being gay is not a lifestyle.

You can argue it all you want, maybe even start your own colony.
But America has spoken in several states this November and said they don't want it.
That's what counts.


When I first read your reply, I was offended by the very nonchalant way in which you presume to know what I feel and why I feel it. But ultimately, I can't hold it against you that you believe what you do. I don't know you anymore than you do me. I don't know what struggles you have gone through or what kind of obstacles lie ahead in your path. Everybody is battling something. All I know is that we each have our own paths to walk and our own lessons to learn. You feel that your way is right and I feel that mine is and the truth is that we are both right in our own ways and in relation to our own circumstances.

For me, the argument is simply a human one. This is who I am. It is not an addiction, a lifestyle, or a perversion. I don't want to push who I am or whom I love on anybody. I don't expect you to agree with me or approve of my relationship. But I do expect that my government treat me in exactly the same way that it treats the heterosexual members of this American family. I do expect the laws governing this land that we share to be fair and free of private prejudices.

Of course you have the right to your opinions and to vote on any measure you choose. In the same respect, I have the right to my opinions and I have the right to object when I have been treated unfairly and to appeal biased measures that aim only to further divide a floundering nation.

I must disagree with your prediction that the gay rights movement will be "squashed". The reality of it, whether or not you like it, is that we are here, we are human, and we aren't going anywhere. The only thing that needs to be let go of is hatred and intolerance. There is diversity among us for a reason and it's about time that we start celebrating our differences rather than attempting to stifle them.

America's vote may be what counts for you but fortunately for me, my heart is what has the final say and it's not about to change its tune just to please the masses. I cannot tell the majority how to vote or what to believe any more than the majority can tell me who to share my life with.

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k2y #470377 11/22/08 03:24 AM
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Well, first let me say that I will give respect to your opinion despite the fact that I don't agree with it.

I am glad to see you do have some clarity.

No, I usually do not approach things in a nonchalant manner. I'm usually pretty blunt in my opinions but I choose where and when to use that mannerism.

All political correctness aside, even though many years ago, psychologists did come to the conclusion that being gay was not an illness which built the ground upon which you stand, they did declare that it was a deviance, a sexual variance.

But in no way did they say it was normal behavior.

And I also think it's a very sad thing to push this on kids from Kindergarten on expressing that it's perfectly normal for mommy to sleep with mommy or daddy with daddy.

Things were not meant to be put where human waste comes out and so on and so on.
This is how disease is spread. This is why AIDS came about.

Yes, we are all human, that is the truth and yes, we all have the rights to our opinions. Hate me if you wish but what I speak is the truth and that is something that your kind cannot tolerate, but at the same time, you are good at judging us for our religious beliefs and calling it hate speech when it disagrees with your behavior.

So do what you wish in life. You will be the one to answer for it later.
All through history, this kind of thing was never tolerated. So don't expect it to happen now despite your vigorous lobbying. There are many more against you than with you..

bahrain #470380 11/22/08 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: bahrain
Things were not meant to be put where human waste comes out and so on and so on.
This is how disease is spread. This is why AIDS came about.


And you, like many others, are incorrect in believing that all gay persons participate in anal intercourse. Or that only gay persons partake in anal intercourse. There are many other forms of intimacy than this. In fact, you might be surprised by how many DO NOT participate in anal intercourse. It is a matter of feeling and so forth. It is an emotional connection that is important, for this is how ALL relationships are built. There are some people who don't have intercourse of any kind. Are their relationships any more or less than the nect person?

As for the spread of disease, there are many ways this happens. There are many ways that AIDS spreads and has spread. It is, and never was, a GAY disease. There is a reason it went from being GRID to AIDS and HIV.

As for everything else, you are entitled to your opinion no matter how out of date, antiquated, or intolerant/ignorant (as in not open minded etc). I respect you for your opinion, but I defintely don't have to agree with you on it.


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Jilly #470450 11/22/08 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jilly
Two things worth noting no matter how you feel about gay marriage:

Prop 8 voted to take away rights ALREADY granted to American Citizens. This is something everyone should be concerned about, no matter who you are or where you stand.

Other thing - Sham marriages get legal rights. As in, people married for a green card or to get health benefits, but not for actual love. This is less the spirit of marriage than what gender someone is, if it's loveless, and simply a union of convenience. I assume we can all agree on this point?


I know a couple that the husband cheated on his wife numerous times, and they were on the brink of divorce until she found out she had cancer. They decided to stay married on paper so that she could still have his health insuarnce, because she had her own business and had no personal health insurance. He did not move back into the house, continued his affairs; it was a legal marriage only. This was a Christian couple. Of course by actions one could assume that she was, but he wasn't. I did think it was decent of him to do this for her- but he owed her much more. Don't really know which side of the argument this makes, but it does show that we Christians definitely are not any better than anyone else.

I myself am on my second marriage. My first marriage ended because of adultery, mainly on his part (because he did not want to leave her).But I did, too I was just willing to give mine up. So I am not blameless AT ALL. We made much worse mistakes than that, both of us. So obviously I do not have the right to judge anyone, even the husband I mentioned above (even though in my heart I do.)

If one of my children came home and told me they were gay, I'm not sure how I would react. I was brought up believing it was wrong, a sin. But the last several years I have seen much, much heartache and difficulty. I have also had many friends who are gay/lesbian, and they are wonderful people. It feels heartless to deny someone love just because of how their DNA made them, how their physical appearance is.

I look at the (admittedly few but real) cases of children born with hermaphroditism, both sex organs. Their parents decide as infants which gender they shouidl be, but then when the child hits puberty, the other sex hormones prove to be dominant. So the parents chose a little girl that now feels like a boy. Whose fault is that? Why should this child be made to suffer anymore? Or the baby boys that were burned so badly during a C-Section that a sex-change seemed necesary, but now they feel attracted to the other girls in their locker rooms. Are we going to persecute them?

To take another argument; because of what has been happening in my family recently, I cannot have sex with my husband right now. (Sorry if I am oversharing). But it brings back horrid flashbacks of mny rape, no matter how gentle he tries to be. It also makes me extremely anxious for my daughter (cannot explain to you guys how much of an understatement THAT is!) Should my husband divorce me? To take it one step further, should he have divorced me when I had my hysterectomy? I can't have any more children. If that is the purpose for marriage, then I have no more purpose. I am empty.

There is too much hate in this world to deny people love just because their bodies do not conform to the way we were taught they should look.


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Originally Posted By: ChelleLaunch&Spirituality

To take another argument; because of what has been happening in my family recently, I cannot have sex with my husband right now. (Sorry if I am oversharing). But it brings back horrid flashbacks of mny rape, no matter how gentle he tries to be. It also makes me extremely anxious for my daughter (cannot explain to you guys how much of an understatement THAT is!) Should my husband divorce me? To take it one step further, should he have divorced me when I had my hysterectomy? I can't have any more children. If that is the purpose for marriage, then I have no more purpose. I am empty.

There is too much hate in this world to deny people love just because their bodies do not conform to the way we were taught they should look.


Did your husband marry you just for the sex? Love should be the basis for a marriage. Not a green card, not health insurance, not sex. If anyone is a loveless marriage then it should be ended. I fell out of love with my recent wife of five years for various reasons and we ended it. She lives in Michigan with my daughter, whom I miss very much and I wish I could still be there for her but I cannot stay in a marriage just for the kids when we are arguing and fighting all of the time over stupid stuff.

If there is no love, then there should be no marriage. It shouldn't matter what the gender is. Sure as a Christian I am against gay marriage but it should not be up to the government to decide. As far as Christianity goes, if two gay people want to get married and are in love, I say let them do it and if God is angered about it, then He can deal with it on Judgment Day. I am against abortion too but I feel the decision should be between God and the concerned parties as well and not be a government mandated thing.

Chelle, if your husband truly loves you, he will stick with you during these trying times for you and your family whether you make love to him or not. He should be understanding and nurturing and I am sure he is.

Love should be the basis for marriage.


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Originally Posted By: Vance Wrestling and Crime
Sure as a Christian I am against gay marriage but it should not be up to the government to decide. As far as Christianity goes, if two gay people want to get married and are in love, I say let them do it and if God is angered about it, then He can deal with it on Judgment Day. I am against abortion too but I feel the decision should be between God and the concerned parties as well and not be a government mandated thing.

Chelle, if your husband truly loves you, he will stick with you during these trying times for you and your family whether you make love to him or not. He should be understanding and nurturing and I am sure he is.

Love should be the basis for marriage.


That was the point I was trying to make.

My husband is being very supportive about the whole thing. He understands everything I went through then and now.

I was just making the extreme point that some take that marriage is for pro-creation, and obviously I do not fall in that category anymore.


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Oh ok I understand now. I thought he was thinking of leaving you. Sorry for the misread.


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Jilly #471035 11/24/08 06:04 PM
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Bahrain - we could go back and forth on this for days and neither of us would change our opinions, I suspect. I think we'll have to agree that we disagree.

Barbara



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bahrain #471048 11/24/08 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: bahrain
I think that one of the things that makes it irreprehensible is, ok for one example. In California, the courts will soon be hearing arguments against the proposition that voters passed banning gay marriage. Their claim is that the voters of California violated the civil rights of a vulnerable minority.

What about the voters civil rights? The general public that is not in this supposed minority has had their civil rights violated also because of the gay rights movement has been trying to push this down the throats of Americans for a long time now.

In America, you have rights as long as you don't infringe upon others' rights. There is no real separation of church and state and that has nothing to do with this argument.

If they state that the voters had no right to vote on this, then what rights do we have? Do we have to consistently cave in to this movement all the time?
No. We as Americans are allowed to have our opinions and this is a very serious moral issue for this country.
It's not just some little thing in context to civil unions.

You act as if you have no rights. And seeing as how alot of votes changed many things in many states in regards to banning gay marriage, I am glad for it.
At least America finally recognizes that this is a large scale potential problem that if allowed would also open our doors to other things such as a fight to have polygamy recognized, etc.
Do you think this would not happen. Marriage is a sacred foundation between a man and a woman. This is not ancient Rome and Greece.

Allow us to have our opinions. If we disagree with your lifestyle, then we have that right. Just as they feel in California, that the voters had no right to vote NO.

At least my friends that are gay know my opinions and they do respect them. I like them for who they are but they don't shove their ways on me.
It saddens me that you feel you have no civil rights, because you are very wrong in that aspect.
And in the bible, it does say that man should not lie with man and woman should not lie with woman.
That is a fact........


Hi bahrain,
Again, I respect your right to feel as you feel. But...in what way are homosexual people infringing on your rights as a Christian? Gay people are in no way forcing you to be gay or engage in a homosexual life...yet as a Christian you appear to be infringing on their lives to live a "Christian" life, as you understand it to be. In other words, it appears that you insist that your way of believing is the standard which they must adhere to, or they are "perverse" and against the way of "God." No one is asking you to "cave in" to who they are. You are simply asked to live your life, while other people live theirs.

It would appear that you feel your right to judge them and orchestrate who and what they are has been infringed upon - not the right to feel as you do. This would seem to me, not to be about "God," but about your need to judge and control other peoples rights and natural behaviors.

Not all people believe that the Christian "God" or any other "God" is based in reality. This is what the American system is based upon - the right to believe what one wants to believe, as long as no children are subjected to abuse. Yet many heterosexual people are hurt by people who are gay and in denial and marry as if they were straight...even many gay people do not grasp that they are normal, but beat themselves up according to the "Christian" belief system. And in polygamy, many children are abused - forced into engaging in sexual acts by adults who control them.

Being homosexual is a biological normality. My ex-sister-in-law is a medical specialist who focuses her study on the human brain and sexuality. It has been scientifically proven many times over that homosexuality is perfectly normal, and is evident in brain function and hormone production. Nothing in the Christian "faith" has been proven in any way.

Shay

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