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What do you think of the U.S. automakers 'bail-out' plans?

We have several dealerships in our community, paying salaries and paying taxes, helping keep some of my favorite lunch stops in business. My neighbor says that one car place on the other side of town has closed its local lot and a couple of businesses down that block are empty, so the neighborhood looks much different than this time last year.

It had not occurred to me that when Detroit is having problems, and the difficulties are already being mirrored in towns with dealerships, leaving them to go under will have a big effect everywhere.

Those jobs have been good places for those who do not go on to college after high school to work and make enough money to raise a family. And for those who want to go on to college but can't afford it, they have been good places to work and save or take classes while working.

Does your party have an official position on automaker bailouts? Do you have neighbors or relatives who own or work for local dealerships?

SUVs, traffic congestion, parking lots, pavements, and roads over farmland and natural spaces, and environmental impact of the automakers products are all such negatives around here.

It's a bit difficult to sympathize with the trouble they are having ~ and there's such a general feeling that the automakers in trouble have not been especially good citizens where safety and mpg rates are concerned, and don't seem to have taken the responsibility to plan for the security of their employees' livelihoods. I was also wondering what the view of the unions is toward the current crisis.

If John McCain had been elected, do you think Republicans would be supporting the automaker bail-out? I thought they were all for giving a break to big business and wealthy executives.

Pam W
SE of Seattle

Should Congress Make Loans to Automakers in Trouble? multiple choice
	Yes, with requirements in place
	No, not for any reason
	No opinion - let Congress figure it out
	Pressure electeds to make a bipartisan effort to deal with the crisis
Votes accepted starting: 11/18/08 05:51 AM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Good question, Pam. I reluctantly chose "Yes, with requirements in place" - i.e. start basically from scratch, add in your own money, and scramble to create sensible, hybrid cars.

I didn't click "No, not for any reason," solely because there are so many people, as you said, dependant on these jobs. It's not as if they had a business that failed, and the repercussions were basically on a personal level. I wouldn't feel bad to simply let them fold, otherwise, as their irresponsibility, greed, and just plain bad choices has led to their fall. They have had 35 years to get it together and make changes to fuel efficient cars, then green cars. Instead, they chose bigger and less efficient vehicles. (Ashton Kutcher was on "Real Time with Bill Maher" last week and jokingly, but not really, suggested that the oil companies bail out The Big Three, since they catered to each other all of these years... )

Anyway, I feel that things have gone too far, and too many people have been effected to just let The Big Three crumble, while everything else crumbles simultaneously. If a young voice from the crowd were to call out that they had everything in place for a fresh new automotive industry, things would be very different, but I haven't heard of any thus far. The "pressure electeds" choice was an interesting one, but I think they are feeling over-pressured enough as it is...

Shay

In the "real" world, you can depend on certain businesses going bust like you can depend on gravity. It's part of the natural cycle of business. It is hard initially, but people are resiliant and usually end up starting other, more relevant businesses over time. These auto makers have been fooling around for years making products that people do not like as much as those produced by other manufactuers. If they haven't gotten their act together by now, they're not going to.

If we had bailed out the candle industry when their product lagged behind light bulbs, what would that have done? These auto makers are making cars, but they're not the kind of cars people really, really need now. I think we need to tough out the initial slump that will result from the failure of these companies and have a little faith in human ingenuity. Ultimately, recovering from this slump will make our country stronger. It's unrealistic to keep bailing out faltering companies.

Cela,

I agree with you, we need to stop bailing out the "big wigs." It's our money that they are using to bail them out with and nobody bails out the "little guy," when they are in trouble. When people go bankrupt, don't they just deal with it and move on? People need to start relying on themselves. Yes, it would be difficult to start from scratch, but America did start out that way. Relying on a few people at the top is what the government wants and it makes us that much more vulnerable.

I don't believe in the phrase, "they're too big to fail." These corporations, CEOs, etc. are just too big--that is the problem. Senator Barry Goldwater has said, �Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have.�

Bailing them out is corporate socialism, our money is being distributed to the wealthy--this is what happened prior to the Great Depression. It boggles my mind how people are not just plain angry about this.

Cynthia

I love what you guys have said here. But what about the thousands of mothers and fathers who need to support their families? What do they do while these auto makers fail? Where do they go for employment, while other industries are failing at the same time?

It was a great comparison between the light bulb manufacturers and the candle makers - but... the light bulb makers came and took over the need for candles (yet the candle industry still found a way to go strong!) What do we do as a nation when a company gets so big that they are able to kill any other method of achieving the same goal - then burn out themselves? I recently heard mention of a documentary titled "Who Killed the Electric Car?" Has anyone seen it?

I don't know. It will be interesting to see what happens...

Shay

Hi Shay,

Yes, it's unfortunate for the mothers and fathers that lose their jobs whether it be in the automotive and other sectors. My parents have been laid off before, but were fortunate enough to find other jobs. I believe that the American people can be resilient if we are allowed to be. The government and media are doing a fine job with their propaganda and scare tactics if we don't bail out our "so-called" saviors. I guess this is the end of capitalism and free markets. We have to rely on Big Brother to take care of us.

Just recently my mom, due to her cancer returning--is not able to work now, and my dad cannot take time off to help take care of her because he told me he was "scared" to because of the economy. So, I am going to be there for her during the holidays. Yeah, I am angry that this government of ours is engaging in "legal plunder." And, "we the people," are suffering.

I guess the point that I am trying to get across is that these bailouts will not work because they are like a band-aid, and it will not stop the profusion of bleeding.

Our economy has been falling for a long time, we have a spending problem, we want to build our empire through needless wars that costs us billions a month, our currency is fiat because it is not backed up by gold, our system is run on credit and we're trying to prop that up. On top of that, we are trying to keep up our programs like Social Security and Education. I could go on...there is a wealth of information out there and the mainstream media is doing an injustice to the American people by not broadcasting truth.

What these bailouts are doing is similar to the game of "Monopoly." The guys that own "Park Avenue" are getting richer and we are the losers. I believe that there is a great deal of cronyism going on with these bailouts. Big wigs have to look out for each other to keep their cartels.

Also, I have seen that documentary, "Who killed the Electric Car," and it was pretty good. You should watch America: Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo.

Thank you for posting.

Cynthia

Cynthia, I don't disagree with a single thing you've said. And I watched most of the video, and it's all familiar to me. Thing is, all governments are corrupt, and always will be - because corrupt human beings are born, grow up and carry out their plans. It seems that capitalism has indeed failed - it was bound to. It has failed due to rampant greed, fraud and irresponsibility - but now that we're here, what should we do?

Part of me just wants to sit back and watch as our culture slowly grinds to a halt. Part of me wants the world to see that object "value" is an illusion created by mankind. You nailed it - capitalism, like all "isms" is just a game - it's not based on anything real. Trouble is, real human beings are the game pieces, some realize it, most don't. Yup, the correct thing to do when a game falls apart is to put the pieces away, fold up the board and leave it; or shut off the video game and start fresh next time. And we could try it, and see what happens. We could all stop paying our taxes and see what happens. I'm guessing the IRS isn't going to cave in so easily.

So, what sane, self preserving President is going to enter the Oval Office, put up his feet and say "Okay. Look, the thing to do right now, is get rid of bankers and the IRS. Then, let the chips fall where they may. New game, new rules. The reality is, we have no money, nothing we pretended had value has any value it's all been fake, and now the truth is out. Oh, yeah, and we really have no freedom either - that's been an illusion, too. The lesson we have all been forced to learn is, 'absolute power corrupts absolutely - wait, that's been said before...'" Being a Taoist, I do feel this would be the correct approach - raw reality. However, even Lao Tzu stated that the Tao can't work in government. For one thing you can't remove corruption from humanity - it's wired into a ratio of humans. Even if we could "get rid of" the IRS, down the road a new form would appear.

So, here we are standing in the middle of how fraud and corruption is allowed to run our system, on all levels. All we understand as a nation is "the game." Lame and wobbly as it is, all we can realistically do is keep playing it, or...what? Live without commerce or production? For how long? Most of us know the truth about where we are (if not everything that got us here) - but what do we actually do with it? Plus, we haven't even had time to face it, never mind cope with the shock and devise a new plan. That could take decades. It's chaos we are in and nothing can "fix" it, pronto. We are close to being the fallen giant, vulnerable to any other country looking for a lame duck. As a nation, we have royally messed up. Already, China owns one third of American soil - and we owe them how many billions of dollars? Plus we are locked into accepting the dangerous goods they produce (the ones we used to produce ourselves with our guidelines,) via "fair" trade.

Right now, we can hobble along for a spell, get some (pretend) revenue moving, get some new business started up and get people working again. The rest will have to come later, as our dragging limp turns to shuffle, turns to stepping, turns to gait and eventually to gallop. We hope. Then maybe we can face the attempt to corral the IRS? Sounds to me a bit like taking down the mafia...

Shay

Actually, it won't be "pretend" and it won't be "revenue," if we define revenue as real income (like from taxes). It'll be real money, but it will be BORROWED from other countries like China. We'll be over the proverbial barrel in debt up to our eyeballs as a country as well as individually.

If we want to predict the future, we can look at countries that owed other countries and see how their economies ended up when the debt came due. Their economies went bust. Argentina's a good example. Arrrgggh!

We should just take the medicine right now. No bailouts. Tough it out and quit building debt.