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Joined: Feb 2006
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Koala
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I would argure we don't "need" a bailout now.

As far as NAFTA goes, it certainly led to change. But, opening the borders for trade isn't the root cause for our mess. I would hold that refusal to adapt to market changes, poor management, and irresponsibility (individual, corporate and political) have led us to where we are now.

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Lynn_B #468339 11/14/08 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Lynn_B
I would argure we don't "need" a bailout now.

As far as NAFTA goes, it certainly led to change. But, opening the borders for trade isn't the root cause for our mess. I would hold that refusal to adapt to market changes, poor management, and irresponsibility (individual, corporate and political) have led us to where we are now.


If we didnt open the borders for free trade like we did, then our companies would not have moved to Mexico and the like where labor is so cheap and the CEO's are getting rich.


Vance Rowe
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Koala
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The movement of US companies into Mexico started in the 1960's (the maquiladora movement), which predates NAFTA a good 30 years. The same holds true for countries like India. We make it nearly impossible for companies to grow here in the U.S. (unionization, high payroll costs above market levels, forced contributions from employers towards insurance and other extras, high unemployment insurance contributions, high contributions for workers compensation, etc.). If their leaders/boards/CEO's want to grow, they have to locate somewhere they can do that. I don't like it; but it makes good fiscal sense for the companies who are trying to stay afloat.

If we want to keep jobs here, we have to make it easier for companies to be here.

But, the movement of jobs is not the root cause of the current instability. What we have is a nation of people (individuals, corporations, government) - myself included - living on credit, refusing to save, over extending their obligations. When people refuse to meet their obligations, the entities that extended the credit fail. Our whole economy is wrapped up in this network of borrowing, borrowing, borrowing. The house of cards has fallen. Banks can't make loans because they don't have liquidity. Businesses can't get loans for payroll and have to lay people off. People are laid off and have no money to pay towards their obligations; and the cycle just continues.

If we'd quit trying to find something/someone to blame (NAFTA, the Republicans, the Democrats, fat cat businessmen, Joe Blow down the road, etc.) and start looking in the mirror and owning up to what we've done to ourselves we might get somewhere.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there that just aren't comfortable with that; and really need to have someone just step in, toss some money and platitudes at the "problem," and sweep the whole mess away for them.

Lynn_B #468473 11/15/08 01:24 AM
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I live where there are a ton of illegals working in the chicken processing industry. There is SUCH a blind eye turned to this problem--both to the employers and the illegal employees. This problem is the reverse of that of industries leaving our borders.

This situation is SO wrong on SO MANY levels. First, it creates an underclass of people who can be truly at a disadvantage if they are mistreated. They can be cowed into not reporting crimes or unfair wages if they are naive enough to fear deportation. On the other hand, they often drain government resources when their children enroll in our schools or they need healthcare. We even have a new scenario---I.N.S. (Immigration and Naturalization Service) raid "disaster" areas. If a large business in your area experiences a federal immigration raid that, ultimately, shuts down the business, your community may be faced with providing shelter/food for the children of deported parents while, at the same time, experiencing a mini-recession created by the void left behind when a large number of employees quit spending money in your community. Believe it or not, communities in our area even have emergency preparedness seminars on what to do if a large business in our area experiences such a raid.

Arrgggggggggh!!! In my opinion, this should not be happening. A) We do not need instant citizens who do not understand or appreciate the value of "rule of law" that this country was founded upon. If we grant citizenship to massive numbers of illegals, the next step is elections that will draw the votes of millions of misguided new voters. Before we know it, our country won't resemble the one these people fled to. B) One of the major effects of the Civil War was to outlaw slavery. Now, we have something that bears a close resemblance to slavery. Just because you "pay" people doesn't make them free. These illegal workers are, in many ways, just like slaves.

I really wish there were a humane way to send these people home. At the very least, we should NOT offer them citizenship just because we feel sorry for them. Basically, we need more than the HONOR SYSTEM we have now with immigration. People flood in here all the time, and NOTHING is done except the occasional raid. One statistic I saw said that less than 3,000 illegals per year are deported in the entire U.S. With estimates of a total illegal population of 2-3 million, that deportation number might as well be zero. I get the impression that people in Central and South America know more about our immigration system then any of us do. They come here with virtually no fear of leaving, and there is even talk of Congress permanently opening both our southern and northern borders for passport-free travel.


cela
Lynn_B #468650 11/15/08 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Lynn_B
The movement of US companies into Mexico started in the 1960's (the maquiladora movement), which predates NAFTA a good 30 years. The same holds true for countries like India. We make it nearly impossible for companies to grow here in the U.S. (unionization, high payroll costs above market levels, forced contributions from employers towards insurance and other extras, high unemployment insurance contributions, high contributions for workers compensation, etc.). If their leaders/boards/CEO's want to grow, they have to locate somewhere they can do that. I don't like it; but it makes good fiscal sense for the companies who are trying to stay afloat.

If we want to keep jobs here, we have to make it easier for companies to be here.

But, the movement of jobs is not the root cause of the current instability. What we have is a nation of people (individuals, corporations, government) - myself included - living on credit, refusing to save, over extending their obligations. When people refuse to meet their obligations, the entities that extended the credit fail. Our whole economy is wrapped up in this network of borrowing, borrowing, borrowing. The house of cards has fallen. Banks can't make loans because they don't have liquidity. Businesses can't get loans for payroll and have to lay people off. People are laid off and have no money to pay towards their obligations; and the cycle just continues.

If we'd quit trying to find something/someone to blame (NAFTA, the Republicans, the Democrats, fat cat businessmen, Joe Blow down the road, etc.) and start looking in the mirror and owning up to what we've done to ourselves we might get somewhere.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there that just aren't comfortable with that; and really need to have someone just step in, toss some money and platitudes at the "problem," and sweep the whole mess away for them.


I am looking in the mirror and wasn't me that put Flint, Michigan in near poverty. It wasn't me that made Michigan number one in unemployment in the country. It wasn't me that put this country in excess of a trillion dollars in debt. A company I used to work for in the 90's shut its doors and put hundreds of people out of work to move to Mexico. We are allowing all of our stuff to be assembled in Mexico and China because it is cheaper. I didn't cause that. Someone has to be blamed for that. Opening up the borders for free trade aided in the mess we are in now. Do you think people in control at companies would not rather pay 1.50 an hour as opposed to 14.00 an hour? People were against NAFTA and now CAFTA from jump street just as they were for the bailout. After the bailout, AIG big wigs spent over 400,000 dollars for their executives to take a retreat to Hawaii. Is that my fault too?

Last edited by Vance Wrestling and Crime; 11/15/08 05:29 PM.

Vance Rowe
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Vance? I'd love to see Congress put strings on any bailout for the car makers by demanding they make their products real gas sippers - How about a minimum of say, 50 miles per gallon of gas? And I mean inter city travel, not highway, as a yardstick to giving the money out. That could save a lot of problems regardless of whether gas prices rise or fall and stretch out the time fuel makers have to come up with alternate solutions to fossil fuel use.

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Elephant
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VANCE, SOUNDS LIKE YOUR COMPANY WAS mAYTAG. iT ALMOST BANKRUPT A CITY WHEN IT SHUT DOWN ITS MAJOR PLANT IN ILLINOIS FOR REFRIGS AND SUCH AND MOVED TO MEXICO


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Lady J #468673 11/15/08 07:19 PM
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oops, sorry. was playing a game that requires the caps lock on and forgot to turn it off


J. Ruel - Gay Lesbian News Editor

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Lady J #468972 11/16/08 10:04 PM
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My dad and I were having this conversation recently. Not surprisingly, we disagree. I say that "the good old days" of someone getting a job at a factory and making enough money to support an upper middle class lifestyle (as has been true in much of Southeast Michigan for years) are long gone. I think we shouldn't try to close the borders or keep the jobs here but do what Americans do best .... innovate, create new industries and new jobs that will employ the people who would have been employed by manufacturing. The fact is that since all those other countries can do it so much more cheaply, things aren't going to change. Thus, it seems a better use of our time to find an alternative than to rail against it. In the interests of full disclosure: I live in Michigan and my dad was unemployed during the last auto industry crisis in the 70s. I know it's awful but I'm also pragmatic: since it isn't going to change, what can we do?


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And about immigration: Keep in mind that unless you are native american, all of you came from immigrants. Perhaps not brown skinned people from Mexico, but immigrants nonetheless. The Irish were just as vilified as lazy, etc back in their time. It isn't new.


Barbara Sharpe

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