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Joined: Jun 2005
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BellaOnline Editor Chipmunk
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BellaOnline Editor Chipmunk
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,429 |
If the Republican strategy of identifying Barack Obama as a socialist had any rational basis except to frighten uninformed voters, Republican businessmen would not have supported and voted for him. They also portrayed him as being an enemy of families of children with disabilities, when his voting record and platform showed quite clearly that he has had our best interests at heart, too. These arguments are over. We have a tough time ahead of us. George W. Bush is still President. When he was elected in 2004 he did not give any indication that his policies could lead to the 'crony socialism' of the bank bailouts and other responses to the economic crisis. People around the world are looking at what is happening here because it has world-wide effects. A View from New Zealand on 'Socialism' in the USA Why are we not discussing whether Republicans are socialists? In our democracy, we should not turn to supporting our current President as well as our President-Elect as they work together during the transition. We have so many real issues to focus on, why keep beating on this imaginary horse? Pam W SE of Seattle I wanted to address the idea that Obama is a "Socialist," as opposed to a "Democrat." There seems to be some fear out there, and now that Obama has been elected, I deeply desire to put some minds at rest that President Obama could not more perfectly exemplify Democracy. .... To clarify, this is a beautiful Obama pre-election interview with Rachel Maddows: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/30/rachel-maddow-interviews_n_139402.html.... Best, Shay
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172
Koala
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Koala
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172 |
From a business perspective, whether I like it or not, moving jobs made fiscal sense. They could no longer afford to maintain operations under mandates to pay higher unemployment taxes, higher medical expenses (though I've always loved it when companies paid these for me, it's never made good fiscal sense), higher property taxes, wellness plans and social supports for employees (again, I like these, but really the individal should be responsible for his/her own wellness and I don't believe companies should have to provide EAP plans). Labor unions also diminish a companies capacity to remain in an area as they set wage controls (let's face it, when a janitor at an auto plan pulls in $90K/year under a union contract, there's just something wrong). Its not the business nor the "system" that's a failure, its government controls that force these issues onto business that create failure.
As for taking individual responsibility, under the new government, you won't have to take responsibility for anything. The government plans to take care of everything for you; from cradle to grave.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Parakeet
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OP
Parakeet
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 988 |
From a business perspective, whether I like it or not, moving jobs made fiscal sense. They could no longer afford to maintain operations under mandates to pay higher unemployment taxes, higher medical expenses (though I've always loved it when companies paid these for me, it's never made good fiscal sense), higher property taxes, wellness plans and social supports for employees But, in retrospect, how much sense does it make now? In the big picture, sure, these corporations are raking it in, while people in droves are being faced with hunger and homelessness. Isn't the key issue here not government, but bad government? A government selling itself out to special interest business groups? Republicans believe strongly that government doesn't work - but it only doesn't work they way they do it. They lose all sense of balance and sensibility as they selectively govern in favor of corporate gluttony. Where did all of those tax dollars go? To subsidize multimillion dollar farms - some of which are not even in operation. Not to small farms who need it, not to rebuild roads, bridges, schools and other infrastructure projects. Why are insurance costs and gas prices so high? Because government allowed corporate moguls to charge any price they set for themselves. No caps, no regulations - a free for all. Bad government creates wide scale corruption. We are sitting in the middle of the decay that has resulted. Labor unions also diminish a companies capacity to remain in an area as they set wage controls (let's face it, when a janitor at an auto plan pulls in $90K/year under a union contract, there's just something wrong). Its not the business nor the "system" that's a failure, its government controls that force these issues onto business that create failure. I completely agree that Labor Unions are out of control. Only here's the problem. They are not run by the government, but by the mafia. There are huge questions looming about the government stepping in against mafia control. However the mafia has far more power than, so far, anyone world wide has been able to control. But, how would you feel about the government stepping in on this issue? As for taking individual responsibility, under the new government, you won't have to take responsibility for anything. The government plans to take care of everything for you; from cradle to grave. Well, yes and no. The mind boggling truth is, that we are in so much trouble that it is honestly difficult to comprehend. Right now, if government doesn't start stepping in - the culture as we know it in the US will be over. We will be the fallen empire - a wasteland. Rome fell following the same kinds of ginormous mistakes our current system has been systematically following. Yes, it's that real. So, yes, government is making steps toward taking some initiative to sort of re-shuffle a house of cards blown to horrific chaos. This will subside, and when we are strong again, things will change again. Change is always in motion. I'm honestly getting the sense that many people don't understand the crisis we are in as a nation, a band-aid here and there just isn't enough. Ideology isn't enough. Not now. Shay
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Gecko
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Gecko
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 503 |
Again, business are making very bad decisions and then crying foul, when will they take responsibility ? I gave you a great example in another post of where the meat packing plant is filing bankruptcy because they CHOSE to hire 389 illegal immigrants, who were arrested recently. Now the business is crying "foul" and "poor me" when in reality and they way I see it, they only have themselves to blame and should not be able to file bankruptcy for their own stupidity. It goes the same for citizens, they get credit cards and loans they know they can't afford and again cry "foul". We have to take some responsibility for ourselves weather you are a business owner or a citizen. The government did not control the situations I have posted, citizens and business owners did but now they want the government to bail them out or let them file bankruptcy, that debt doesn't just disappear it gets passed along. I know how much it cost to run a business, you have ups and downs and you have to PLAN accordingly. This is nothing new, running a business takes lots of planning and yes I have ran several business and I learned from the best, it's not easy but thankfully I learned always expect the unexpected. This situation we are all in now was not created by President Obama, he is being handed a pile of junk and I'm sure he won't be perfect but I have confidence that he will do what he can to clean this up for US.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Koala
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Koala
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172 |
It isn't the responsibility of business to insure that you have a job (though they're easy to blame when we don't have them, I fall into that trap myself). The responsibility of business is to do their work well and gain profit from it. Most (even those large corporations so many dislike these days) give more back to their communities in terms of gifts and support for local social programs than you or I ever dream of. As for corporations "raking it in", if they've earned it (by our paying their prices), they've earned it. The same holds true for any work income you or I may earn. The problem here isn't good or bad government; or republican vs. democratic government. The problem here is government run amok; and its only going to get worse as our elected leaders push to have government intervene in everything we do. As for labor unions, the Mafia makes a nice scapegoat. But unions can't exist where government doesn't allow them to exist. Obama and his supporters are pushing an increase in unionization. (You may wish to read more about the proposed "Employee Free Choice Act".) In fact, the Washington Post quotes Obama activlely supporting unions, "We're ready to play offense for organized labor. It's time we had a president who didn't choke saying the word 'union.' A president who strengthens our unions by letting them do what they do best: organize our workers," Mr. Obama told the AFL-CIO in Philadelphia on April 2." (see http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/31/obama-supports-union-organizing/. As for culture, you are absolutely correct. If government does step in as Obama has planned, our culture truly will cease to exist. Many people honestly do not understand the crisis we face as a nation under the new ideology.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Parakeet
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OP
Parakeet
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 988 |
I don't know what to tell you, Lynn. Again, I'm sorry that you are not happy. Perhaps it is best that you keep your posts in the Rep forum as Jilly, BellaOnline's Community Manager posted last evening? I keep my posts here, out of respect for the Reps. It's truly not my desire to argue or bum anybody out with my POV...  Just FYI, this is the Democratic Party forum. Not saying anyone can't talk here, but people looking for support for Republican views might post in the Republican Party forum here on BellaOnline?
I am trying to be delicate here, as I post in the Rep forum from time to time. But when I do post there, i try to be respectful of where I am. I try not to rip into Republican viewpoints since it's just not the right place to do it. :-) Best, Shay
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 988
Parakeet
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OP
Parakeet
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 988 |
One thing that I am very much looking forward to with Obama as President (even if I didn't vote for him), is that this should make a HUGE step in racial discrimination in this country. Or at least I hope it does. My kids were asking me last night about Martin Luther King, Jr.s "I Have a Dream" speech and I looked it up. Here's the most poignant points to me: ...We cannot walk alone.
And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead.
We cannot turn back.
... Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.
And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I have a dream today!
I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today!
I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."�
This is our hope, and this is the faith that I go back to the South with.
... And this will be the day -- this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:
My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.
Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride,
From every mountainside, let freedom ring!
And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true. ... And so let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire.
Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York.
Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania.
Let freedom ring from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado.
Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California.
But not only that:
Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia.
Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee.
Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi.
From every mountainside, let freedom ring.
And when this happens, when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:
Free at last! Free at last!
Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!�From: American Rhetoric: Martin Luther King, Jr. He would have to be proud today. Thank you so much for posting this, Michelle. Yes, Martin Luther King Jr. would have loved to have seen this day. Perhaps he is watching, with immense joy...  Shay
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Parakeet
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OP
Parakeet
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 988 |
If the Republican strategy of identifying Barack Obama as a socialist had any rational basis except to frighten uninformed voters, Republican businessmen would not have supported and voted for him. They also portrayed him as being an enemy of families of children with disabilities, when his voting record and platform showed quite clearly that he has had our best interests at heart, too. These arguments are over. We have a tough time ahead of us. George W. Bush is still President. When he was elected in 2004 he did not give any indication that his policies could lead to the 'crony socialism' of the bank bailouts and other responses to the economic crisis. People around the world are looking at what is happening here because it has world-wide effects. A View from New Zealand on 'Socialism' in the USA Why are we not discussing whether Republicans are socialists? In our democracy, we should not turn to supporting our current President as well as our President-Elect as they work together during the transition. We have so many real issues to focus on, why keep beating on this imaginary horse? Pam W SE of Seattle You have made an excellent point here, Pam. I read the thread you included, and hadn't considered the Bush Administration as socialist. The crony socialism that was discussed seems glaring after having it pointed out... My only point in starting the thread was to open up dialogue, and hopefully ease some minds, or at the very least, get folks with burdening worry to trust the process and embrace change, even if it's imperfect. Perhaps it was unsuccessful, but I gave it a shot...  Shay
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Koala
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Koala
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,172 |
Apparently some here have been offended that someone would take an opposing view in the debate here. That's unfortunate. If you were offended, I do apologize. My comments were not targeted nor did I ever state anyone else's POV was WRONG. Neither was there any ripping or shredding. I merely made statements of my personal beliefs and the facts as I see them.
I have stated before that I am neither Democratic nor Republican. But I do hold strong political beliefs. In the last few days, I have been called racist, uneducated, irrational, uninformed and close-minded. Other posters have even implied I do not hold with God's mandate to love my fellow man. I have never made any such statements to anyone else. All I have done is put forth my opinions; yet, I and the others who have taken the time to politely voice their views here and elsewhere are the ones reproofed. Perhaps that's something we should all think about.
Again, if I've offended you by debating politics, you have MY apologies. Its unfortunate, most unfortunate, that we've digressed to this point.
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Joined: Feb 2003
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BellaOnline Editor Highest Posting Power Known to Humanity
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BellaOnline Editor Highest Posting Power Known to Humanity
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,392 |
This is a fine tightrope to walk, having forums that are set up as BellaOnline has them. Basically, each forum topic is to be a supportive environment for people who feel like they do. They are not set up to be debating grounds and I think this might be where we run into this problem, in so many places. It's not just in politics. We get people in the Married No Kids forum debating about how it's wrong to be child-free. We have to put a stop to it there, too. The MNK forum is specifically to SUPPORT those who decide to not have children, full stop.  Those who believe it's important to have kids can say whatever they wish in the BellaOnline Mom forums, where they can find support and not argument. That's just an example. We don't expect people who are religious to enter the Atheist forum and tell people they are going to hell. And of course, Atheists should not be telling the religious forum posters they are foolish, or whatever. So as i said, it's a fine line to walk, and we the moderators are constantly trying to find how to walk it so that coming to a BellaOnline forum is a positive experience for everyone; that there is a home for every viewpoint.
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