BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Philosophy Taoism

Beautifully, said, Cara.

I have read about Toaism as a religion, in a kind of dedication to Lao Tzu (there are many spellings!) and his apiphanies. I also agree that if you are actively worshipping an entity or deity in the Tao, that the essential meaning of the Tao is lost. The basis being, that worship is a meandering from the central focus that all is equal; in balance. But, that being said, I also see clearly that in many human beings, the need to worship and perform rituals is inherent, and a part of the whole.

Shay

I think rituals are a manifestation of beliefs. Something concrete that you can lay your hands on. Some people need that and some don't. Rituals can be beautiful. I don't do rituals, but saying that is probably an oxymoron because I believe we all do rituals even if we don't realize it. Which shoe do you put on first in the morning? Is it always the same one? rituals can be so small we don't recognize them as such.

I use to teach Taoism and one of the big stumbling blocks for my students was the idea of "do nothing". I often got the response. "I don't agree. if you do nothing then you won't strive for anything. If I saw someone having a heart attack I'm suppose to just walk past and do nothing?"
people interpret things different, for me it meant.. accept that which comes to you. What is meant for you to do will be put in your path.
My favorite verse in the bible has a very taoist feel to it.
To everything there is a season, and a purpose to everything under heaven.

In the Buddhist faith it translates to: "When the student is ready the master will come"

Shay the Tao Te Ching I have is translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English. But they do not do my favorite translation of my favorite chapter which is:

Chapter 17
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!

I can see you obtain great peace from Taoism, as do I.

Bylen

I see rituals as a way to become closer to to one's onw god. Rituals are repetetive. it gived the layperson, that may not have time to reserch each religion, a basia of whethr the rituals are going to be something theycan live with.

Rituals are greast as far as learning the basics of an religion. But everyone must grow beyone the basics if that wish to continue growing. use the rituals as a gudelines byt which to live, but make your decisions on your own. If you are not strong enough to make your own decision - then you nee more support.

Michelle

Thank you, Shay.

I believe that rituals are important to mankind. However, the secular religious Taoists whom I knew growing up (and I knew many of them) truly did not practice the essence of Tao. The rituals almost seemed superstitious at times, and that was the aspect I struggled with the most.

The essence of Tao is beautiful as it calls for peace and balance of one's life with the nature. It's quite abstract yet more sensible and practical than many other branches of philosophy on how one should approach life.

Michelle,
I agree with you on this one. I think one must be strong enough to make his/her decisions on spiritual beliefs. Rituals are simply guidelines, and cannot be followed without one's further understanding in the religion as it simply defeats the purpose.

I think rituals are a manifestation of beliefs. Something concrete that you can lay your hands on. Some people need that and some don't. Rituals can be beautiful. I don't do rituals, but saying that is probably an oxymoron because I believe we all do rituals even if we don't realize it. Which shoe do you put on first in the morning? Is it always the same one? rituals can be so small we don't recognize them as such.

I use to teach Taoism and one of the big stumbling blocks for my students was the idea of "do nothing". I often got the response. "I don't agree. if you do nothing then you won't strive for anything. If I saw someone having a heart attack I'm suppose to just walk past and do nothing?"
people interpret things different, for me it meant.. accept that which comes to you. What is meant for you to do will be put in your path.
My favorite verse in the bible has a very taoist feel to it.
To everything there is a season, and a purpose to everything under heaven.

In the Buddhist faith it translates to: "When the student is ready the master will come"

Shay the Tao Te Ching I have is translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English. But they do not do my favorite translation of my favorite chapter which is:

Chapter 17
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!

I can see you obtain great peace from Taoism, as do I.

Bylen

Bylen,
I agree with your interpretation of accepting that which comes to you... as the idea of "do nothing" in Tao. Much of the Tao I understand simply defines as "go with the flow". I think most of us spend too much time fighting against the "flow" (chi). Regardless of one's religious beliefs, we cannot deny that life has a "flow", be it God's will, divine intervention, karma or simply "it", and that "it" is not within human control. Accepting the flow means honoring and respecting our connection with the universe, and that's Tao.

Even though I am not a Taoist, I am very glad to hear from a few true Taoists here on the forum.

Thank you for your input, Bylen.

Cara:
It is odd that you said "fighting against the flow". This is exactly the way I use to teach it. I would tell them if you swim against the tide you get no where, but if you relax and trust it, you will eventual end up where you need to be.
Several times while posting I have been reminded of the christian faith. They have much in common. The "let go and let God" phrase says the same thing.
But then I have often felt that Taoism and the teachings of Jesus are very similiar.

Bylen

Hi Bylen,

Yes, I somehow find the letting go aspect of the Tao is very similar to what is taught in the Christian faith. Letting go of our human struggles is an important step towards realization for mankind. Perhaps it is the "way" as taught in Tao. I believe that there are fundamental laws of the universe, and these laws do not change regardless the contexts of religion.

Cara

Hi Balen and Cara,
I can see that I have missed out on quite the conversation, here!

Forgive me, as I dig deeply into the infinite Tao, and prove myself terribly wrong!

I admit that, being a former "born again" Christian, I do have difficulty with the juxtaposition of the Christian religion, and the non-religious Tao philosophy. When one refers to "the teachings of Christ" in relationship with the Tao, I feel myself fading off, and I'll explain why.

For me, the teachings of Christ are confined within a religious framework. Religious deities and biblical teachings expound upon the existence of a "Holy Father" or "God" who incarnated "Himself" as a man, born to a virgin, then sacrificed "Himself" for the "sins" of mankind. This concept was then adopted in a political sense, and countries were "purged" of individuals who did not conform to the belief. For me, this is a political system based upon a fable, and teaches a belief in an entity/lifestyle that the Tao cannot adhere to - i.e. the acknowledgement and existence of an nameable "God," who demands worship. In this light, Christianity and the belief in, and worship of, a "man/God" and what "He" presumably taught, for myself, has little or nothing to do with the teachings of the Tao; until, of course it becomes simply a part of the dichotomy of humanity - of a way of expressing parts of humanities need/want for many things. It then can blend with its opposite; the existence of the "anti-Christ," which is again, an expression of the dissection the of opposites of mankind's wants/needs - which one either worships or fights against. Inherently, "Jesus" is the opposite of the "devil," and the two are perpetually at war for ultimate power.

I really don't mean to be a wet blanket on the Jesus-Tao comparison. I do understand the abstract comparison, but the Christian religion in general isn't something that I feel can honestly be in the same philosophy as the true Tao - the blending and acceptance of all things - as outside forces, and the ones that exist within.

...yet here we are again...at the beginning of the acceptance of all things...

18

"When the Great Tao was abandoned,
There appeared humanity and justice.
When intelligence and wit arose,
There appeared great hypocrites.
When the six relations lost their harmony,
there appeared filial piety and paternal kindness.
When darkness and disorder began to reign in a kingdom,
There appeared the royal ministers."

Shay