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One of my favourite quotations on forgiveness, is:

"The Past is over.
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better Past."

Carl Jung.

Michelle, obviously, we cannot know what it is your eldest child did, and we therefore have no way of being able to comment specifically; fuerthermore, what I say is not intended as a citicism, it is purely an observation...

Trust is the most important thing we can hand to someone who has 'wronged' us but shown remorse.
To withold Trust makes it difficult for them to believe that the forgiveness is there. because witholding trust makes the forgiveness seem conditional.
When Thomas Alva Edison made his very first lightbulb, he entrusted the bulb to a young boy to carry to be tested.
The boy dropped it.
Edison's studio and laboratory spent an age making a new one. Thomas Edison gave the newly made bulb to the same young man to carry.
In my humble view, if we forgive, we forgive.
We tell the person that we forgive them, and ask them please to not do it again.

Even Christ would forgive, and simply say "Go, and Sin no more"..... he never stated that the sinner would have to re-earn Trust....
So I could not personally advise the person then, that they have to do some work to re-earn my trust.
To me, that's no forgiveness at all.
Of course, if there is no remorse, then chance are the person cares little, and will do it again.
But if a person is contrite, it seems to me that imposing conditions is prolonging both the agony and the punishment.

This is just my view. I don't intend to criticise.

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Alexandra #421405 05/26/08 12:35 PM
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Wow Alexandra, this is a really good point. I can remember once forgiving someone... but then finding it really hard to trust them again. I can see now that I had not actually forgiven them, but had only wanted to smooth things over and get on with life LOL.

I have come to experience that really, I don't need to trust people - I need to trust myself - that I can handle all that comes my way.


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See, I beleive I can forgive the event that was done to me, but still expect to be shown that (especially in the case of children who are still growing) they have developed the right to be trsuted in the future.

I see them as two separate events, the past and the future; and they can be judged individually.

In my son's case, it was partially due ti his Asperger's and partially due to a medication problem, but he physically attacked me and hurt me quite badly. And his rage control has always been a problem of his.

I have forgiven him for the initial attack, but I am not ready to trust him by himself with the other two children. I do not think thast has anything to do with not forgiving him, but is just prudence on my part. I am not willing to take that chance.


Michelle Taylor
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and so it continues.

#421422 05/26/08 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: ancientflaxman
and so it continues.


I don't understand?


Michelle Taylor
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#421424 05/26/08 03:01 PM
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Just because I get itchy when myths are spread around as truths, I don't believe that Edison story is true. It's a nice idea, but I'm not finding any factual basis for it. Edison didn't invent the light bulb. There were already light bulbs around, and he bought rights to the patent. What he did was play with them to make them last longer, and this was an ongoing process, not a one-shot process.

I think Alexandra and I will have to disagree on the trust issue. Let's say I have four kids on a roof and our house is on fire. Let's say there are two firemen down at the bottom telling us to jump. I throw down one of my kids and fireman A misses him completely. I see that fireman B is easily catching other people. I am going to throw my next child down to fireman B. I'm not going to repeatedly keep "trusting" fireman A hoping he gets it right eventually.

I feel strongly that trust is something that is earned. I don't walk down the street and give my money to a random stranger, hoping they will put it in a good savings account for me. I go with someone who has proven their trustworthiness and reliability, based on the recommendations of friends I trust.

If I want to go out to a good restaurant for my birthday, I don't ask a random stranger on the street where to go. I ask my friends, who I trust, where they would think I would enjoy. If a friend recommends somewhere that has cockroaches on the floor and slimy food, then I won't ask them again. I won't take the path of "I forgive you. OK, I want to go out next week, where should I go this time?" That makes no sense to me.

The purpose of experience is to help us learn who it makes sense to trust in what situations.

If my 11 year old daughter swears she is ready to babysit, and I test her out by letting her watch a 1 year old child - and she ignores the child all hour and chats on the phone in another room - then I'm not going to trust her with that job again until she is older. I'm not going to say "I forgive you for your lapse, so try again tomorrow." That doesn't make any sense to me. She's demonstrated that she's not mature enough, and we give her time to mature and grow. We don't just keep repeatedly putting a person into a situation where they are going to fail and something disastrous will happen as a result. That would not be responsible, in my eyes.


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Wel, as I pointed out my comments were not inended to be either critical or judgemental... And in Michelle's case, I think she is right to exercise the caution she is demonstrating... Her situation is complicated by her child's condition, so of course he has to be given boundaries...

I think childen are slightly a different case, because as well as discipline, they have to be shown that there are consequences to actions, and that they need to take responsibility.... discipline is a different thing to Trust, sometimes....We expect children to slip up and to repeat mistakes.... that's all part of growing up, of establishing their boundaries, and of testing authority....
And any fireman who keeps dropping people is either in desperate need of retraining or needs a different job - !!

I like all the examples you've given, Lisa, but even with all that you have stated, at one point or another, you're going to have to trust again. If a friend recomends a restaurant, and it's not to your liking, surely you don't think - "I'm never ever going to trust that person again...."
Everyone lets us down at one point or another.
Parents, spouses, children, friends, relatives...And actually, I'm sure there are situations where I too, inadvertently, have let people down.
Of course I have.
Would I want to know that that person would never, ever trust me again, until I prove myself?
And am I honestly going to vow that I will never trust my parents, spouse, children etc... again, until they can prove themselves?
Heck no, of course not.
"To err is Human. To Forgive, Divine."
Because the one thing we all hanker after, in the affection of those we love, is unconditional acceptance. Warts and all.
To be loved is one thing. To be forgiven is another. But to be Loved, forgiven and accepted unconditionally is the most wonderful and perfect state to achieve. And if we can't have that, then the rest is a poor second.




And I didn't say Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb, I stated when he made his first one...I know he didn't invent it, but he made it commercially viable.

And the episode with the little boy dropping the lightbulb was in the Spencer Tracy Edison Bio-pic... and Spencer Tracy wouldn't lie, so there.

(But I admit, it might well be apocryphal...)

However, I think you'll find the Biblical reference is accurate.... wink

#421806 05/28/08 08:22 AM
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Forgiving is a gift to yourself. It is external to the one who has wronged you. They don't need or even necessarily want your forgiveness. They may or may not deserve your forgiveness, but you do. You deserve to have their burden lifted from your shoulders. To forgive is to give yourself permission to walk on, leaving their brokeness behind. If not, you carry it with you and it becomes yours. I, also, have struggled with an abusive, at times evil, mother. When I finally realized it was something broken within her, not me, I was able to forgive but not forget and it honestly has gotten easier and your vicious tongue doesn't hurt like it used to. I, also, feel trust and forgiveness are two seperate things. You can have one without the other. You can forgive the wrongful action, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should freely hand out your trust and allow them a second opportunity.

Last edited by nadaurz; 05/28/08 08:30 AM.
nadaurz #421811 05/28/08 08:58 AM
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Geat post! You are so right that forgiveness has little to do with the one you give and everything to do with you. I had people in my family that I needed to forgive because the burden of bitterness over the past was poisoning my present.

When I did forgive them, everything changed and I was a happier person. I didn't do it for them, but for me.

They never even knew about my feelings (either positive or negative) as it was something no one discussed. It was all an internal process for me but it totally changed my life.

BoomerGal #422301 05/29/08 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Green1
They never even knew about my feelings (either positive or negative) as it was something no one discussed. It was all an internal process for me but it totally changed my life.


That answered my next question, which was: How do you handle forgiving someone who never apologizes or even acknowledges thast they've done something wrong?

But if it is more about ourselves and letting things go, then it really doesn't matter whether the other person admits it or not I suppose.

And Alexandra - sorry if it came off as I was attacking you, I was just trying to clarify where I was coming from.

To further thast subject - I think even adults need to be expected to prove themselves up to a point. (Like in the case of an a spouse committing adultery). But at some point one has to give them the chance to do right or mess up - because really the only way to prove that they are trustworthy is by in the doing.


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