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Joined: Feb 2007
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Lisa, I'm interested as to the Childfree couples whom you've polled to come up with the assertion that it would be easy to say "only children of X quality should be born"? Because they surely weren't representative of the CF people I know. Indeed it sounds somewhat of a generalisation.

With the subject of existing children needing love - I don't understand how parents can just abandon their children either. You know, the parents who just fall pregnant at the drop of a hat, possibly with various fathers, then decide to abdicate themselves from taking responsibility for their offspring. That to me is the worst.

I know people who are undergoing IVF and part of it is that they see other couples falling pregnant easily (especially those who aren't good parents) and they just want the chance to experience pregnancy. For some of them, it's also that they want to pass on their genes.


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Let me say first that my friends tend to be "love to discuss topic" types. We can have dinners that last 3 or 4 hours. So we talk about these types of issues all the time. We find it quite enjoyable.

When I discuss the "only children of X quality" it was in an intellectual sense. Several posters were talking about not wanting to have a child with X syndrome. If you read news reports and studies, that is a common feeling. In fact most studies show that people who realize (through testing) that they have an embryo with Down Syndrome then choose to abort.

So it seems shown by studies and by actual life that people draw a line with "quality". If a child has a certain level of syndrome or disease, they are likely to say the child should not be born. If it is a minor problem (say a bent toe) they would not make that choice. If it is a more serious problem (say Down syndrome) they make that choice the majority of the time.

It is interesting that half of the pregnant women I talk to are terrified of pregnancy and want it over as quickly as possible. They want a baby but HATE being pregnant. Then I talk to women who cannot get pregnant and they crave the experience, they want a "baby in the belly" to feel it grow. So it is like the curly hair / straight hair war. It sometimes seems that no matter what life has given you, you desperately end up wanting / feeling the opposite way.


Lisa Shea, Low Carb and Video Games Editor
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Gecko
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No, I'm not requesting that you delete my account, Lisa.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you're a college graduate like myself. I spoke in plain English, so don't try to pull the "confused" thing (so many trolls used that word to introduce arguments with us in the past). I believe you were out of line on two counts:

1. Trying to make a point assuming others would allow you the given introduction of black people having a lower IQ. I still question...you used this as a given? As in, "Let's say...?"
2. Thinking you can speak for truly CF people and our assessment on the validity and quality of life.

Let's not just "move on" or employ other editorial, dictatorial, or sugar-coated encouragements to move past what I feel is an abhorrent disservice to many people who both participated in and learned from the former posters.

Can the remaining MNK posters get a CF moderator? I mean, by virtue of the fact that you're a parent...wouldn't that mean your interests lie completely elsewhere, Lisa?

When discussing anything regarding or invoking a truly Childfree response or similar mindset, how could anyone feel akin to you, a parent?

You seem to be asking a lot of frivolous questions in this forum to incite a response (even to the tune of making up your own posts to keep the forum pumping). Don't be confused with my plain English, and please answer my questions as someone who has posted here for over a year.


"Men and women think that it is necessary to have children. It is not. It is their animal nature and social custom, rather than reason, which makes them believe that this is a necessity." --Democritus
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Actually I am not a college graduate - I dropped out of college because I found it boring. I am in Mensa though. And yes, your language in your post honestly was baffling to me - I read it six times and could not decipher its meaning. I am glad you posted again.

For example, #1 you posted is not a sentence structure I recognize. It is not English that I've seen, and I read *quite* a lot. Can you please rephrase that again? It simply does not make sense to me, what you are trying to say there.

#2 also does not seem to be a complete sentence. Thinking means what? Are you saying that your opinion as a CF married person is more valid than the opinions of my friends who are CF married people? I don't imagine you're really saying that ....?

In the next two paragraphs - I am *not* a moderator here. So that doesn't make sense to me either ...? Jill *is* a moderator and she is married, and she is child free. Kim *is* a moderator and she is married, and she is child free. Both moderators are married and child free - while many posters here are not married. So in those terms, the moderators are far more qualified to speak to the topic at hand than many posters are.

I honestly am trying my best to read your posts but your sentence structure has made it very challenging. I do appreciate you trying to rephrase but even the rephrasing is challenging in item #1.


Lisa Shea, Low Carb and Video Games Editor
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BTW you can see the moderators of this forum right immediately beneath my post. It says:

Moderator: Jilly, kimkenney, marriednokids

That is Jill and Kim (Kim is on there twice). It is *not* me.


Lisa Shea, Low Carb and Video Games Editor
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Shark
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Lisa,

In the interests of acting as a translator, let me help you to understand Angela�s post. Maybe it is a college/university thing as I could understand it perfectly. Also, if we�re going to suddenly make this a question of who has the higher IQ, let�s debate that on a different thread.

Point one refers to the example that you used as a given (something that can be taken as a fact) in an earlier post. That given was that �African Americans are genetically less likely to live long healthy lives � and have slightly lower IQs.� Angela was questioning the validity of even using this as a hypothetical fact in a climate of support and free speech. It does indeed seem somewhat derogatory to be using this example.
Point two refers to the current state of affairs where you are posting much more than history would indicate that you normally do, in the Married No Kids arena. Indeed from reading your background it would seem that you do indeed have children, thus not really understanding where we come from. Some of your posts also seem to have generalisations within them that do seem somewhat unsupportive of our feelings.

The moderator issue seems a moot point as Kim has decided to take a break, Jilly has admitted to not feeling the need to post and you do seem to be the person taking the lead in the new regime. Thus, by virtue of you being the highest ranked Bella person posting and perusing the boards, you are seen as a moderator.

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Gecko
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You're throwing darts on style to try to make a point, Lisa. It won't work. If you want to turn this into a grammar, spelling and punctuation showdown, you picked the wrong person. But I'll play for the show (DISCLAIMER: THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE WAS INCOMPLETE). If my language and style baffled you, just stop now. Mensa is useless...it's a certificate anyone can get if they just apply and breathe. I've known more people who try to fly the Mensa flag with poor conversation acumen and wanting rhetoric ability than I care to recall.

Hopefully we can get past the grammar and education qualification gauntlets to address some more poignant issues.

Are you denying you have more control than what you've admitted? I don't care as much about the pawns you've recruited as I care about your own commentary.

By the way...you never answered my questions. If you think you did answer them with some roundabout way of saying you don't moderate the MNK forum, try again. You sure are active here as a parent. And let's not forget what real contol you have here.


"Men and women think that it is necessary to have children. It is not. It is their animal nature and social custom, rather than reason, which makes them believe that this is a necessity." --Democritus
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I don't feel it matters at all who has a higher IQ. For some reason Angela wanted to know if I had graduated college or not. I wanted to reassure her that I should be able to understand what she said. Sometimes it is difficult with our world wide audience to know who is from what region of the world and what their familiarity with English is.

My initial post about African-Americans was *not* true. That was the whole point of that example ...? We have debated this issue many, many times in the other forums. Maybe you missed all of those posts?

Historically I have posted all across BellaOnline in general but, being a person who does not like to "rant", I have only occasionally posted in MNK. You can find many posts of mine in the MNK area, but certainly not of the volume of say the yoga or Buddhism or other areas. This is because - if you look back at the past 30 threads for example - MNK has solely included threads which 1) talked about poorly behaving children or 2) talked about poorly behaving adults. I did not find these posts productive in any way. Now that there are posts that are productive, I am actively engaging in them, just as I do in the many other forums.

If you click thorugh the history archives for this forum, you can see that history, of what the past threads had been about.

It is related to the Buddhism forum thread about "not complaining". It is very emotionally harmful to rant about negative issues. Many therapists I know will tell yout his as well. For emotional health, it is far better to find a path for you which is happy, to be content with what you have in life, and to move along that path in a way which makes you happy and hopefully makes the world a better place. For me, joining those 30+ old archive threads about "this child in the supermarket was awful, chime in" or "this parent in the restaurant was awful, chime in" was not a healthy outlet for my time.

Finally, your moderator comment does not make sense to me. When was it that Jilly "admitted to not feeling the need to post"? She is here in DC without laptop access and seems to have strep throat ...


Lisa Shea, Low Carb and Video Games Editor
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For those who are interested, here is the thread in the Buddhism forum about not complaining for a month -

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For those interested in the IQ and Genetics thread, we were discussing that in several threads in the Atheist forum. Here is one which is a good starting point -

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