BellaOnline Forums News and Politics Pro-Choice Question about pro-choice?

i'm confused after reading a lot of your forum. nobody ever really answers why it's okay to kill another person. aren't we discriminating against people who are in jail for killing? if we make laws to kill one kind of person than it should be legal to kill anyone? like i mean really, it would do a great good to kill the child molester that lives down my street. so can't that be a legal choice too? or can i kill my baby after it's born because I realize i'd be a bad mom and the population is too big now anyway and all the other reasons we give for abortion being legal? please just give me an answer why it's okay to abort a baby before it is born and not after? it's still a woman's baby and choice right? when is killing a woman's choice and when is it just killing. and why is there a difference?

I'm pretty sure you did get your answer and this is a repeat question, please see your posts and the answers here
BellaOnline ALERT: Raw URLs are not allowed in these forums for security reasons. Please use UBB code. If you don't know how to do UBB code just post here for help - we will help out!

I'm sorry for the confusion. A friend was compelled to reply under my name when invited to read my posts. I will ask her to register herself and use her own name from now on.

I don't think you ever answered her question though, and I think it's a good question that deserves a real answer. Not all the "smoke and mirror" answers pro-choice individuals are inclined to give. I am, however, truly done with this discussion. My sons' new little birds are so much more fun to talk about, and my questions get real answers!

I sympathize with the confusion over how abortion can be justified as anything other than blatant murder. For a long while, I, too, struggled with this concept.

Over time, however, I came to understand that abortion is not murder. Technically speaking, a person cannot be killed until he/she has first lived, which would require that fetus to be expelled from the body of its mother and issued an official birth certificate.

Therefore, abortion does not kill another person but rather serves to prevent that person from ever living in the first place. While I understand how this can be confused as the same thing, there is a clear distinction.

Until the child is officially born, it is literally a part of its mother's body. Though it is not a choice I would ever personally make, I believe the decision to abort a pregnancy is one that belongs only to the woman whose body is carrying the fetus.

Unless I have walked a mile in the shoes of every woman who has ever had to make that painstaking decision, then who am I to judge it?

I know how tempting it can be to assume that our beliefs, values and decisions are superior to that of those who are different from us but it is so important for us to remember that everyone has their own path to walk in this life and each comes with its own set of obstacles to overcome. Maybe we need to start focusing more on the things that hinder our own paths and less so on creating additional obstacles for others.

"Technically speaking, a person cannot be killed until he/she has first lived, which would require that fetus to be expelled from the body of its mother and issued an official birth certificate."

Is that a scientifically sound belief? A baby, living in the mother's body, hiccups, sucks thumb, kicks, etc. is not a living being? A paper determines whether a person is human?

Yes, that is confusing, because it doesn't make sense.

The mother's body is a host to the baby's individual body, is it not? That doesn't make the baby "literally a part of its mother's body".

As far as judging others behavior: if others' behavior is effecting the laws of the land we live in than we are expected to judge it. We judge all kinds of behaviors in our world, especially killing or hurting another person. I don't have to walk a mile in a child molester's shoes to know that child molesting is wrong, and should be illegal. And if that is "the path" he wants to take than I certainly wouldn't hesitate to say that my belief is superior to his!

So, I have to agree with Curtis'mom and her friend: Where are the real scientifically sound, and logical answers to why abortion is allowed legal? Where are the rights of the unborn child? And who are we to say that that the "fetus" is not alive and human? It seems illogical (and is probably scientifically refutable)to say that a fetus is anything other than a human. And why do we have a right to kill an innocent person?

Am I understanding the conversation properly? I just had to say something, because it struck me odd....

"All human beings should be valued.... above all."

Hi Curtis'mom's friend,

Although your questions are both poignant and legitimate, you appear to remain troubled with the idea of pro-choice. Your above questions to my perspective would be a perfect one for a political site. Given the global propensity for legitimizing war the idea of "all human beings should be valued above all" would be perfectly suited for the belief in the values of war - and the lives spent and the mothers who died and the mothers who grieve their losses. Your question for me becomes "If we only value the lives of American citizens born or unborn, shall we also include the born and unborn of those societies whom we have deemed a "threat" of one kind or another [i][i][i]including[/i][/i][/i] adults, children and pregnant women?"

Ultimately, to expand your belief beyond the impregnated woman the need remains to look to all of those whom have been born and been loved and died at the hands of another.

My question for you. Do you really believe that all life is valued? Our own president waged a war that has ended many, many lives, including more American soldier suicides than war casualties upon returning home, due to the the horrors of the war itself. From your perspective, does this mean that the lives lost of those whom were born and died in a foreign country have no value and therefore thier deaths by the hand of our soldiers or our leader warrents no jail time?

Truly. Pro-choice is the full spectrum understanding that there are women whose lives are threatoned by giving birth. There are many women whose lives would be enhanced by giving birth. Are the unborn's lives truly more valued than the mother's life? Do you personally hold yourself in the position of deciding?

I do welcome your response.

Shay

Being that I am not a scientist, I could not tell you whether or not my statement would be considered "scientifically sound".

I understand that the mother's body is a host to the unborn baby and that the fetus has a body of its own. My point was simply that as long as it is being developed within the mother's body, it is a part of that body and cannot yet survive on its own.

I believe you are understanding the conversation correctly and that we simply have differing views on this topic. Sometimes it's difficult to make sense of things that we may not agree with.

While I can totally understand where you are coming from and why you would express concern for the rights of the unborn child, I can't help but wonder what becomes of the rights of the living woman to manage her own body in the way she chooses?

I agree with Kristina, and I'd like to point out that a foetus is actually a parasitic symbiont - now I know that's not a nice thing to call a child but it is a scientific definition of what occurs during pregnancy. Now, how do you decide whether a parasite (any parasite) is welcome in your body (ie, is something you choose to give life to, because it cannot live without you), or is something that needs to be removed?

If your doctor told you a parasite was affecting your health and wellbeing, and could possibly weaken you so much that you could die, would you ask him to remove it? Or is that parasite considered a sacred life? Bearing in mind that in some cultures, animals and even insects are just as sacred as humans...

For Curtis`mom and Emgirl, In my lifetime I have had SEVERAL Miscarriages and one at 6 weeks and one at 8. You want someone to go there so here I go and for the rest of you please excuse me Yes I had to "fish" one out of the toilet I ASSURE you there was no bones, there were no hands, head, or anything that even resembled "a life", anyone that has had this awful experience KNOWS this. I don't want to seem "unfriendly" but really what is your purposes here other than to repeat over and over again your view of what either Pro Choice or an abortion is or isn't. I know I am not the moderator here, but don't you think you can do more wonderful things say over at the Pro Life board ? Is it your purpose to make someone feel guilty over a abortion ? Not very nice of you to do that, and yes I do respect your point of view, I have read it over and over again (you repeat yourself constantly), you think abortion is murder, great how many times do you want to repeat it ? Obviously this board is for Pro Choice, it's a hard decision and as it has been pointed out, life does not begin at conception scientifically, I will agree that in some religions or opinions, they hold a different belief which is why I asked previously and you did not answer if that is true then why is there no death certificate or funeral? Again if life begins at conception, a proper burial and death certificate should be issued, which by the way can be done thru a place of worship, but that isn't how it is or not to my knowledge it isn't. Honestly you won't be changing anyone's mind about this issue, I will gladly stand by, be a friend, and hold ones hand, if they choose to have an abortion, I would not judge them in any way and I certainly would not shove my opinion down their throat as at a time like that a person needs a real good friend and not a one way opinion, which again would not be my decision to make. I will also fight for the right of all Women to have this choice. Since I have children I learned the hard way, you can't make a decision for anyone else but yourself and that if you go around trying to "beat" your opinion into anyone, it gets old and they quit listening.

Now I know why Curtis'mom stopped replying.

Keep fooling yourselves.... call our unborn children parasites if it makes you feel better. Hang on to the rare possibility of the baby threatening the mother's life (which I believe Curtis'mom saw as an exception under "self-defense", anyway). I will keep hoping that the law changes though.

Here are scientists point of view on human life:

Some of the world's most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate committee that human life begins at conception:

A United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee invited experts to testify on the question of when life begins. All of the quotes from the following experts come directly from the official government record of their testimony.1

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception.... I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life....

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty...is not a human being. This is human life at every stage."

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, "after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being." He stated that this "is no longer a matter of taste or opinion," and "not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence." He added, "Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."



So at least admit that part of the truth...you are killing a human being when getting an abortion. This isn't about making people feel guilty, it's about supporting our original law that killing a defenseless human being should be illegal.