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OK, I *had* to post this. I love Lady Danger by Sarah McKerrigan which features a strong female character. Someone said if I liked Lady Danger that I really should read The Wolf and the Dove by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss. I was just SO so upset by this book. Here is my review. My question to you all is - do modern women really feel that a man who continually rapes you is someone you want to be with??

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SPOILER WARNING - THIS REVIEW TALKS ABOUT PLOT POINTS

I adore the Lady Danger series by Sarah McKerrigan. Someone in that review suggested if people loved meaningful medieval romances that they should check out The Wolf and The Dove. This was written back in 1974, but I love medieval romance and eagerly bought a copy. I mean, medieval times haven't changed that much, right?

Well, medieval times haven't changed - but WOMEN have changed since the early 70s. At least, I had really thought we had until I saw some of the reviews here! It really upsets me that women readers thought that Wulfgar was a hero. To delve into this we have to examine the plot.

Aislinn is raised as a loved noble woman. She is engaged to a neighboring lord and all is going well. Then in storms the Normans and her father is slain right before her eyes. Her mother, an intelligent, caring healer, is beaten and turned into a rag-wearing slave. Aislinn herself is raped by the first knight who comes through. Then Wulfgar shows up.

He pretty much immediately begins to RAPE HER DAILY. She is clear about not wanting sex. He doesn't care and continually rape her. His "excuse"? He's a bastard son. So what? William, his liege lord, is a bastard and he's crowned king. There were lots of bastards in these days. I understand the whole "wanted love as a child" angle. But that doesn't give a man leave to continually rape a woman.

You could say "all men raped women in 1066" - but first, this is not true, and second, he was a knight. Knights took vows. Yes, some shady knights would occasionally rape a woman. However, a knight I would want to fall in love with would not be one of those. And no worthy knight would continually rape a woman.

OK, let's say he felt a simmering love for her and this was his (albeit inappropriate) way of showing it. But then when his sister shows up and starts emotionally abusing Aislinn, he just lets it go on. Soon Aislinn is wearing rags, the sister has stolen all her property and Wulfgar keeps raping her. Oh yes, and the mother is still wearing rags and treated like dirt too. Aislinn doesn't really seem to mind.

Wulfgar treats her completely as a whore. Yes he eventually buys her nice clothes (because she has none left and is going to appear at court). He's hoping to get some good sex in return, because right now she's being passive while he rapes her.

Which brings us to Aislinn. We are told repeatedly in the book that her main quality is that she is gorgeous. Any man who looks at her wants her. That is the sole reason they desire her - to have sex with her. Wulfgar doesn't really seem to care if she's happy or being sniped at by his sister. He just wants her more active in bed. Aislinn herself is entranced by his handsome good looks - but she refuses to put out in bed because she's just a whore and it bugs her. So her solution is ... to nag him incessantly. She is grumpy and sour, with the intention of getting him to marry her! She nags him non stop so that finally in the end he gives in and "surprises" her with a wedding.

Voila! She is now a tigress in bed, and he is thrilled.

I know there are MANY women out there who like male agressors, and that is fine. I am quite happy with a strong male. But there is a very distinct line between a strong male and an abusive male. A survey of women in the 15-24 age range found that **60%** were involved currently in an abusive relationship! *All* of them had been in a violent relationship at some point in their life. Isn't that scary? Do you think if we women read about repeated rape as being a "normal" part of a sexual relationship - never mind a relationship that is full of emotional abuse as well - that it affects our ability to draw the line when our actual sexual partner gets rough with us and refuses to respect our wishes?

Back to the book. So let's just say for a moment that it IS ok for a knight to repeatedly rape a woman - and for this woman to get "Stockholm Syndrome" and want this to go on forever and marry this guy. Is the rest of the story enjoyable? Well, the answer is NO. Rather than having actual depth to the characters, the ending makes everything completely meaningless. It turns out Aislinn WAS a virgin when she first slept with Wulfgar and somehow NEITHER noticed it!! Hah, highly unlikely! She was a healer, she knew about sex and virginity. Certainly Wulfgar knew from the soldiers he hung out with what the signs were! It also turns out Wulfgar isn't a bastard, that his siblings were. So now all childhood and modern traumas are neatly sewn up into little squares and made smooth.

How about the writing style? I know many books with horrendous plots where the writing was amazing and I loved it anyway. Here we have typos, we have grammatical errors, and we have jumps of scene and time without any transition or warning. You have to re-read a section to make sure you know who is talking and when it is taking place.

The book is very beauty obsessed. People are looked down as being "old women" or "too thin" or "infertile" or such. People are only treasured if they are curvy, beautiful and can have kids.

I was taking notes as I read this and I kept writing down that there was "odd situations" going on. What characters did or said made no sense based on their background and personality. They were being dragged along to suit the plot. Several aspects of the ending situation involving a child were completely unbelievable to any parent.

There were several God-like situations where characters made allusions to things they couldn't possibly know. There are historical inconsistencies. Just one example - they talk about rapiers in the year 1066, when rapiers were developed in the 1500s. There are also factual errors. Most birthmarks are caused by the birth process and the very few that are inherited do not skip generations. That was a deux ex machina if ever one was written.

I really wanted to like this story. I appreciate authors who can write long novels and fill them with interesting content. I adore the medieval period and love stories based in this time frame. I am generally VERY lenient as far as storyline goes. But this one bothered me greatly. It really concerns me that so many readers (judging by the reviews) felt that repeated rape of a woman was fine - and that her technique of nagging constantly at a guy to force him to marry her was fine as well. These are about the OPPOSITE of what romance is supposed to be about.

We need more books about QUALITY relationships. The guy should be worthy of marrying, not a rapist. They should share a relationship where they wed because they want to, not because the guy is nagged endlessly until he gives in to the "feminine desire for a ring". Maybe then we could start seeing a drop in this incredibly distressing 60% domestic violence rate that modern women are trapping themselves in.

I don't consider myself a feminist - but it really bothers me greatly that women are allowing themselves to be abused like this - and extolling the behavior in book form as a great, fun read.

You know what? I think the universal answer these days is no, but back when Woodiwiss wrote this book (in the late 70s or early 80s?) this was acceptable in a romance novel. The alpha male was the only male, and every historical romance had scenes like this.

With the exception of a few of the 'erotic romances' on the market these days, you won't find this anymore. The market has evolved as the readers and society have evolved. And you definitely can't judge current romances by a twenty-year-old book.

OH!! I want to clarify when I said "reviews here" in my review I meant reviews on AMAZON. I went to Amazon after I read the book, to see what others had thought of it and it was getting five star reviews from readers who had JUST read the book. It just upset me so much, that modern readers in the year 2008 were praising the hero as being "sensitive" and "caring".

I can understand people in the early 70s MAYBE feeling this way - but women in 2008???

I'm sort of waiting for all of her fans to start negatively rating my review on Amazon too, but I had to post it - the book just upset me so much, and then to go on Amazon and find modern readers claiming this was the perfect hero guy really really upset me as you can tell

In fact look, one of the Amazon reviews says "... if you're a mother who wants to introduce romance novels to a young teenager this book would be perfectly OK." - that was posted in 2007. So they're actively promoting this for young teenage girls!!!

Did these people actually read the book? Sheesh. I certainly wouldn't want my teenager (if I had one) to read about a relationship as degrading as this.

Yes that is what upset me so much. These people had *just* read the book - in modern times - and thought that the hero / rapist was sensitive, sweet and the perfect man. They wanted someone as take-charge and powerful and sexually driven in their own lives. I am all for a guy being strong and liking sex - but this guy didn't care at all what the woman wanted, he raped her whenever he felt like it, and he let his sister emotionally abuse her and steal all her belongings. It really bothers me that women right now, in this current age, would think this is a fantastic partner that they should nag into marrying.

I cannot agree more with your analysis. I read "The Flame and the Flower" last week, wondering what the so-called first book in the modern genre of romance was all about, and was more than a little disgusted with the hero. Thinking that perhaps Woodiwiss would come to her senses with her second book, I picked up "The Wolf and the Dove" over the weekend, and I am still in a state of shock. I've got about eighty pages to go before I finish it, so I skipped the part of your review that looked like it might discuss the end, but I am wholeheartedly of the same opinions you have expressed as to the rest. I read the reviews on Amazon before reading the book -- if you're the one who warned about the repeated rape, thank you for that. At least you can't say I went in completely unprepared.

And yet, how do I prepare myself for the idea that a man who repeatedly rapes a woman can EVER be considered a "hero" by modern standards? Silly me -- repeated intentional assault generally disqualifies anyone from being a "good guy" in my mind. In addition, as you noted, he treats Aislinn terribly in every respect. What in the world could EVER cause her to fall for him? I don't get it. But even accepting the possibility that this poor, battered woman who has just lost her family, her home, her old life, many friends, security, and any semblance of personal safety, might turn to her tormentor/protector as some kind of knight in shining armor (which is plausible, I suppose), how can any modern woman find this story appealing? There are reviews out there describing Wulfgar as "never cruel". Come again?!?!! Woodiwiss did a decent job in "Flame" expressing the heroine's feelings about the rape, though I never felt that it was really a terrible trauma. In "Dove", the trauma seems not to exist at all. What I wonder is, are we so coddled in our safe, independent society that we can't even imagine the horror in a situation like Aislinn's?

I'm still trying not to be sick.

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one out there with this reaction.

Being a victim of date-rape myself, I'm tempted to read this book. It's just incomprehensible to me that anyone at anytime considered rape romantic (outside of S&M community that is).

It's been a very long time since I read any romance novels period. I read a few harlequins when I was in high school (the 80's)- and quite often the woman was talked into sex. I don;t remember any actual rape scenes, but coercion and pressure, yes!

It was one of the main things that turned me off of romances. I couldn't stand reading scenes of a woman falling for a man like that after my rape.

TrueMind - welcome to our forum!! It is so good to have you here

Yes that was me on Amazon being so completely upset by it. I was only "partially upset" by the book - but then when I went to Amazon to post a review, I saw all these women with recent reviews saying they ADORED the hero and it just sent me over the edge I couldn't believe that modern 2008 women were loving this character!! It was very scary to me.

I am SO glad you posted, after seeing all the glowing reviews of this book I was beginning to think that I was alone out there.

Michelle - as a victim of date rape I have to say this book is probably the LAST book you want to read because it will just infuriate you. There's no reason for you to spend 4-8 important hours of your life - hours you could spend being happy and with loved ones - getting yourself upset.

It's not even like one of those "the delivery man came in, and he was so gorgeous, and then he took me" rape fantasies. It was very cold and cruel - and then there's the sister who emotionally abuses the woman and the woman's mother too. And the heroine's response is to "not enjoy it" until she can nag the hero into marrying her. Because of course then everything will be OK.

There are TONS of great romance novels out there that are well worth reading. In a way part of what really upsets me about this book is that modern readers are apparently promoting this to others as an "ideal romance novel to read now in 2008" which will make people new to the genre think that ALL romance novels are like this, and be completely sickened.

If you do want to try a few romance novels, poke around this forum for other suggestions which are much more sane

Wow, Lisa. I am stunned that a woman wrote this "romance" novel. And the "romance" was where, exactly? What woman in her right mind would nag her rapist into marrying her? I just don't get it!

Shay

Shay -

The argument is that this was written back in 1970 I believe, and at the time women were very prudish about sex outside the marriage. So this was apparently one of the first books that a woman could imagine sex outside the marriage because she "had to" and could still enjoy it.

However, I disagree with this point of view. I've read all the "top selling books of all time" which are:

#1: Gone with the Wind - Margaret Mitchell (1936) ~28 million
#2: Da Vinci Code - Dan Brown (2002) ~25 million
#3: Valley of the Dolls - Jacqueline Susann (1966) ~20 million

then in no particular order -

Animal Farm - George Orwell (1945)
The Bridges of Madison County - Robert James Waller (1992)
The Carpetbaggers - Harold Robbins (1961)
Catch-22 - Joseph Heller (1961)
Catcher in the Rye - JD Salinger (1951)
The Celestine Prophecy - James Redfield (1993)
The Exorcist - William Blatty (1971)
The Godfather - Mario Puzo (1969)
God's Little Acre - Erskine Caldwell (1933)
Hound of the Baskervilles - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (1902)
Jaws - Peter Benchley (1974)
Jonathan Livingston Seagull - Richard Bach (1970)
To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee (1960)
1984 - George Orwell (1949)
Peyton Place - Grace Metalious (1956)
Shogun - James Clavell (1975)
The Thorn Birds - Colleen McCullough (1977)

so I've read all of these. By far and large they ALL involve sex. I imagine it's how they became top sellers Readers aren't reading highbrow books. They're reading sex books. Anyway even God's Little acre in 1933 is about sex. Here's my summary of that book -

"Written in 1933, this story is set in rural Georgia in a time and location of great poverty. It was quite a sensation when it came out, because it was so full of blatant incestuous sex. First, you have Ty Ty who has raised 3 boys and 2 girls on his own. All 3 boys and one sister have married, while the youngest girl, Darling Jill, is a sex-pot sleeping with everyone who she can. Griselda, one of the sisters-in-law, has a gorgeous body and everybody wants to sleep with her. Ty Ty makes sure that he tells everyone he can talk to that her body is really hot and makes a man want to lick her. As you might imagine, disaster results."

So there were TONS of books out before this one that talked about sex - and women liking sex - outside of marriage. To say this book HAD to involve rape because it was the only way prudish Americans could imagine a woman liking sex is outlandish to me, and does not hold up given the popular sales.

Valley of the Dolls? Hello?

Yuck! this reminds me of a novel that i read that was set with a young white girl and a indian man. the indian kidnaped the girl treated her like a slave the women of the village beat her and the indian raped her all the while the girl was falling in love with the indian man he claimed her as a squaw and she was the second wife. then the first one was killed by the indian man because she caused the second girl to miscarry then the girl finaly desides that she doesnt love this man so she starts fighting bad and hates him then the man puts her in the whore teepee for anyone to rape she has formed a tenitive friendship with this other indian man so the husband has this man go in and rape the wife so she will feel betrayed and helpless to control her life or destiny and gratful that the husband takes her back. only her spirit is broken now and she has lost the will to live so she is a shell of a woman. she the husband takes on two more wifes who beat her and make her a slave then she comes to life and begs the husband to forgive her and love her again.

What a Crock of $#!T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my friend told me that that was the best book in the world that she had ever read! she has 3 kids but 3 different men and is living with a child sex offender!!! the whole time i was reading the book I thought she would fall in love with the friend or the friend would save the girl and stop what was happing but he willingly and inthusicasticly raped her at the first chanse he got! to me books like this are a slap inthe face to women at any age or in any culture. the girl was a mindless ninny who by the time she had a thought of her own it was too late to get out of the stituation and she gets slaped down for having a thought then has to beg for forgiveness? OH HELL NO!!! I'd be damned if I would beg for forgiveness from my raper!

it is just insane!

Wow that is really a scary book, FreeSpirit!! Is there any chance you could remember the name of it? I really think I should create a "Romance Novel Hall of Shame" and start listing these books in it as books you should NEVER EVER read.

It does really scare me what is going on in the minds of modern women who read these books and think the hero is great. Are they that low self esteemed that they think it is OK for a woman to be treated like this?? Does it make them feel like they are not alone and that their abusive partner isn't so bad after all??

Hawks Lady or something like that but I dont remember the auther I want to say Kathrine Coulter or Madline Baker because those are some of the historical romance athures that I love to read or use too before I read so many of them they all started sounding the same! I know that I was so outraged by the book because it was wrote by an auther that I really loved....

Man, I would have flipped the hell out if I read this book. I got super [censored] with the last romance book I read because (amongst other things) the male lead wound up crossing that boundary into rape. THAT book drove me crazy, but I bet I would just drop dead if I tried reading this book!

By the way, the book was "The Smoke Thief", and I just wrote a review of it on Amazon since even remembering it made me so ticked off.

I have moved passed the romance noval stage of life because the women are week and brainless and the men are neanderthals! I started with the historical romance like westerns and moved to contemporery where the women are super sex godesses and still perfect bodied and wonderful but still not to smart or strong of charictorer... even though she has oppiones and a pov she still bends to his will and needs and they all end with babies even if there is no marrage. I even moved into the time travel books by Karen Marie Moning and I do love the Highlander Series!!! this series takes madern women back to old time Scottland or brings Scottland men into modern day! there is faeries and time travel and lots of humor and it is great but it still has perfect bodied women and ends in the happy baby ending...

I wish they made CF romances where the couple doesnt want any kids and it has nothing to do with she or he cant have kids but they want kids anyways so they adopt kids....

I dont know what I am going to read now but I am tired of the perfect bodied, baby wanting romance that I have been reading!

See that's the thing, I NEVER liked romance novels, but I decided hey, maybe I was just buying into a stereotype so I'll give a few a chance. Well, the few seem to bite it!

If you don't mind pure fantasy and with some very very dark scenes but with a lot of erotica, try the Black Jewels trilogy by Anne Bishop. I love her characters, her women are strong but not meathead strong, and the males are also strong but not moron strong. They also have a clearly defined line of what is and isn't rape, and the "good guys" do NOT cross that line and wind up still being looked at as being "good guys".

interesting the few Erotica books that I read had no plot or story line and they were a colection of short "stories" that bit!

So this is a real Story with a plot and everything!!! cool! I will check it out!

What do you mean dark scenes?

Jonathan Livingston Seagull -- about sex? Okay, I read it when it first came out, back in the 70's, and was MUCH younger then and haven't read it since, but I don't recall it being sexual. More like aspiring beyond the role society tries to dictate, to reach high, that sort of thing.

Freespirit -- I had forgotten about the Highlander series! I love time travel, though can imagine for the traveler, it must be a bit disconcerting being temporally displaced!

I love strong main female characters, especially when they are able to open closed-minded male characters. Rape -- or other abuse, however, is not something I would recommend any teenager to read about. (There have been occasional exceptions, when the abuse occurred in the heroine's past, and a kind and gentle hero helps her heal those wounds.)

That storyline does sound vaguely familiar, but it's not Madeline Baker. Though she does have a book called Hawk's Woman. Madeline is actually a personal friend of mine. She's very religious and her sex scenes are quite vanilla compared to other romances.
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I realy dont think It was Madiline baker or Catherine Coulter they are just the top authers that Write in that line of romance that I really Loved to read! but this book was by one of the authers that I really enjoyed at the time... I cant think of any of the others athurs names! This book was so far off of this authers writing style that It really shocked me when it did not end with the indian friend saving the girl and them living happy ever after! I do remember now that this was one in a series I think but I stoped reading for sometime after I read this one It [censored] me off that bad! I even burned the book!!! and I never burn books! but that one as soon as I finished it I took it outside lite a cig. with the book! best smoke I have ever smoked! anyways...
I have read Commanche Cowboy and I hated it as well! I am not sure what the title of the book was but I know that the hero was named hawk and he was the leader of the tribe and the tribe did not apporve of him taking a white wife so he had no choice but to let the tribe women treat her bad and rape her. and when she publicly rebelled against him he had to teacher her a lesson so he raped her in public and put her in the whores teepee and set it up so the friend would rape her to ruin there friendship for one and breaker her down. so she was broken... and she would be obedent but there was no life left in her so he had to take other wifes and they tried to shame beat and kill her and then at the end she beggs him to forgive her and love her again of course by then he has really fallen inlove with this indian girl that is wife number 4 I think! but I dont remember what her name is or was... they changed her english name to something like blue eyed witch or something. I remember some where in the book I think at the end she saves a young girl from drowning by doing cpr and they think she is a witch so they treat her with respect and Hawk takes her back and they life happily ever after with eachother and the 3 other wifes and the white girl is now the first wife.

I appologize to Madiline Baker and Catherine Coulter if she didnt write this piece of book either!

LOL Freespirit! I'm sure they aren't insulted.

I know I've read that book too! I wish I could remember who wrote it.

Michelle, I wholeheartedy agree with Lisa. You are likely to be extremely disturbed by this book. I can't see how you would benefit in any way from reading it and recommend that you steer clear.

Lisa, thanks for your welcome. I had simply stumbled upon this forum when I did a Google search on the title of the book and the word "rape", looking for anyone out there who might have had something negative to say about the book. I'm not at all familiar with this forum, and generally don't participate in online communities, but I'd forgotten how much fun it can be to connect with other like-minded people.

Aside from the issue of rape, I think that perhaps your reaction to the book as a whole is more violently negative than mine, although we're of the exact same opinion when it comes to modern women espousing the virtues of the hero in this novel. I disagree with your assessment that the only attractive feature the heroine possesses is her appearance; Woodiwiss takes care to mention throughout the book that Aislinn is compassionate, dutiful, strong, loyal, and wise. Perhaps your real issue is with the fact that Aislinn is considered desirable simply due to her appearance, with the men completely ignoring her non-physical attributes? (Though, in truth, Kerwick sees those attributes and respects her for them.) I noted, as you did, that Woodiwiss seems overly-concerned about a woman's hair and curves (the heroine in "Flame" has "a bust that would make any man cry") and she highlights sexual attractiveness as the woman's main reason for being in the story at all. In fact, Aislinn's story would have been very different had she not been so beautiful, so her great beauty doesn't bother me much. But does she have to be so coquettish? Based on her first two books, Woodiwiss seems to think highly of clothes and jewelry as a means of softening a woman's heart. I shudder at that.

As to the emotional abuse Aislinn bears at Gwyneth's hands, I note that no one generally interferes with her words to anybody. And Wulfgar is as likely to spew cruel words as his sister(though his words are never based in slander). It seems to me that the real issue is that no one comes to Aislinn's defense or shows any concern for her feelings. One sentence struck me forcefully. I think it was uttered in the forest, when Wulfgar joined Aislinn and her mother. He expressed an utter lack of concern for Aislinn's abused pride and honor, not even condsidering the importance of those emotions. This is inconsistent with any ideals the knight could possibly have held, his own pride and honor being paramount, and so rather than blaming him for the ideas credited to him, I blame the author for attributing to her hero words and actions that ring so false. While I have no trouble believing that Wulfgar would willingly stomp on a woman's honor/dignity, I can't believe that he wouldn't understand exactly what he was dong.

My incredulity with regard to readers' reactions to the book stems from two places: the rapes, and the shallowness of the character Wulfgar. Regarding the rapes, I disagree with any evaluation of a knight's behavior that would contradict such actions. Despite vows taken or views espoused by the knighthood in general, it is well-established that a large number of knights throughout history behaved in whatever unrestricted manner they chose, leaving pain and sorely-wrought havoc in their wake. In fact, knights on crusade were feared as the doers of great evil, and for good cause. In that, Wulfgar's actions ring true to me. But he "falls in love" with Aislinn. To the author, that seems to mean only that he desires her above all others and that he enjoys her company. This is love? This is the love that interests a modern reader? And as to Aislinn, there is no emotional development there at all. She desires Wulfgar, and therefore she loves him, despite his cruelty. Huh?? I'm generally not one to question the characters in books I read, taking everything at face value, but I still don't get the jump on that one.

You seem particularly annoyed by Aislinn's "nagging". That doesn't bother me so much -- Aislinn is left with two choices: marry Wulfgar, or raise her bastard child on her own, left to make her way in the world as best she can, poor and unprotected. She can't stand the shame of being a mistress any longer. Her attempts to get Wulfgar to marry her are no great stretch to me (though the way she goes about it is annoying, I grant you that). And speaking of marriage, what's up with Wulfgar's change of heart? How does a man go from absolute refusal to allow himself to be chained to a woman to marrying on a whim? No one flips that fast.

My interest turns to Woodiwiss. With "Flame", I wondered about her upbringing that she should be charmed with such characters as she put before us. With "Dove", I now wonder about her entire life's circumstance that she should write about rape and abuse in such a light. Clearly, whatever feelings modern readers of these books feel for the "heroes" was shared by the author. I'm going to have to read at least one more of her books to see if I can get a better grasp on where she's coming from.

Looks like I've written a book myself! Can't remember the last time I ever expounded at all about a book I'd read... it's been a while.

The problem is Shay, many women after a rape are not in their right mind at all. I know I wasn't.

Not only was it a date rape, but it was also how I lost my virginity. I had been very adament about waiting to have actual sex, although I did fool around. After the rape I was desperate for this guy to stay with me, because I deeply felt that I HAD to be with the person I had sex with. I found out later that approximately 1/3 of women who are raped (date-rape, I'm not sure about stranger rape) go through this same thing.

For years I struggled with issues like; "Am I at fault?", "Did I fight back hard enough?", "Did I deserve it for leading him on?" and that sort of thing.

Which is why I see a book like this that romanticizes (ok no pun intended) rape - and then is encouraged for young girls to read??? Girls need to know that it is ok not to have sex. It is Ok to stop whenever they need to, and that it is not their fault if they are raped.

Michelle - exactly, the thought that this is being promoted as "great for teenagers to read" really bothers me a great deal. The rates of teenage girls who are pressured into sex is astronomical. So then they read this and think they should forgive and stay with the guy and actively work to keep him?

TrueMind - you brought up a lot of great points! Just to keep things simple, I wanted to talk about one of them. Yes, some knights were known for their interest in raping any woman they came across I've done a fair amount of research on medieval times and definitely agree with you there. My thought on this issue (which I thought I mentioned in the review, but maybe not) is that yes, they existed, just as men who beat their wives existed back then. But for a romance story, my hope would be that the hero was one of the knights who *did* respect their vows and abide by them. Yes, I am all for flawed human characters - but being a serial rapist is not a flaw I appreciate in my heroes ...

I agree! I like romance novels that take a ordenary person and they live above the standards around them like the knight in shiny armor who has a soft and tender side! the handsome Cowboy that shows women respect and treats them like equals and the Prince Charming that takes a bride based on her spirit and brain power and compassion not her family status or money or even her looks!!

I read a book years ago that the girl was plumb and plan in looks and she was a peasent girl taking care of her grandma how was in poor health. she wore rags and worked in the fields with her younger brother. The kings men want to take there land and are trying to force the them off the land but the King will gladly let the brother and grandma have a small part of the land If the girl becomes his whore. Mean while the prince his son has runaway and hates his father and how he treats his mom and and him and he is kind of areagante and hotty at first thinking that he is above the riff raft and all that. but he goes into hiding and winds up getting shot by the younger bother who thought he was a deer. the boy gets his sister and they bring him back the the house and they have no idea who he is and because he is hiding from his father he doesnt tell them. anyways it goes on and the Prince who says he is a knight of the king... sees how hard her life is and that she never complains every time the king comes by they drug the Prince so that he cant tell the King that her brother shot him. finaly the girl has no choice but to become the kings whore to save her family and the king takes her. the Knight wakes up and the girl is gone and the brother and grandma act like he just made her up because they dont want him to get envolved in there problems and hurt the girl. the brother goes after the sister....

It was a great book and the Prince starts out a real #1 first class A$$ but he grows up fast and I found the book a wonderful read because the girl is fat and the Prince goes from looking at her like she is nothing but a fat peasent girl to loving her! the way the auther does this was awesome because it the Prince starts to see her as more then a peaseant servent girl... normal regular woman and then he starts to see that she is smart and brave and more then a Woman but his equal! and then he starts to notice that she is Beautiful! this is kind of a progessive awaking that happens slowly through out the book. I just loved this one because it was the first book that I had read that the main girl was fat and she gets the Prince! and I loved the fact that the prince noticed her as nothing because she had nothing and then her personality and charitor made him see her as a beautiful woman proving that beauty comes from the insideout not the other way around but it does it in a way that doesnt say oh well he loved her inspite of her fatness like all the others did.

I remember that this book was a kiss at the end type book nothing a hot or spice and it was a harloquine romanace but other then that I dont remember the title or the author. I wish I did! I use to have it but I gave it away to a teenager that I thought would love the inspiration.... and She loved it so much I never got it back!

My thoughts exactly, Lisa! In fact, I'll take it a step farther and say that I'd really prefer that my heroes not be flawed in any way. If I want flawed, I'll look around me in the real world. If I'm reading a romance novel, I want sigh-inducing perfection. Or at the very least, near perfection!

I like the girl to have "flaws" like she is not big boobed barbie or she isnt model perfect funkie hair glasses....something like that. but the guy I want him to be perfection multiplied... and if he is a hunk all the better! lol

I was asking a friend about that book I was aling about and she said that it was one of those books that they publish with out editing or reading for content they are cheap books but you get what you pay for. she couldnt remember the name of it either but she remembered reading it. it is not as bad as I thought it was it was just hard to follow because the writer didnt cleary state who she was talking about and changed in the middle of a scene or pharagraph... so ignore my last post! I realy thought and so did my other friend the guy and girl in the story where like that. you would have had to read this book though...

I hope I did not offend anyone by my describtion of the book but you would have to read it to understand how far out there it was.

I don't think I want the hero perfect -- but the flaws have to be the "right" kind -- minimal, not petty or small-minded, but make him human. Honestly, would you really want a totally perfect guy (if one could exist) in your life? I'd feel woefully inadequate next to him!

you do have a point there! but small flaws only no major charitor flaws...or moral flaws....or ethical flaws!

OK this sounds like a poll!!