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ha-ha-ha!! I think I am going to try talking about world peace....I like that idea. Unfortunately, I am past the "gentle" answers with my family, especially my mother, who keeps telling me that I am missing out on the best part of being a woman. I don't think so!!!

Can you try explaining to your Mum (calmly) that the pressure she is placing on you is affecting your relationship with her - that its causing tension - you don't enjoy her company as much when she's lecturing you - perhaps you could agree to disagree. I tried this strategy on my mother - not on this topic but on the behavior of my sister in law - I said if our every meeting was going to be an opportunity to hassle me about my sister in law and talk endlessly about her then our relationship wouldn't have an opportunity to grow and develop.
It worked for us...no more talk about my sister in law.
You could put a mini series together on the life and times of my sister in law!

You could also mention that you'd appreciate her support even if she feels strongly that you're missing out.

Hi cdt, Welcome! Good for you for standing your ground.

I share your feelings about that concept that it's the best part of being a woman.

Not that I know, but it's so wrong for people to pressure us when they obviously have an agenda (grandbaby to brag about, someone to trade playdates, misery loves company�who knows what it is?). And what if you weren't able to have a baby, or realized you were infertile? Would your mom rub it in that you've missed out on the best part of being a woman? Or what if your child was high needs, and you were taking care of them for the rest of your life�would it still be the best part of being a woman?? People just don't think, and sometimes it feels like they can't see beyond their own experience. I don't know whether to believe people anymore...

I've been pondering the question for a long time too. It's such a relief to find people to talk about it, without boring my friends/relatives (and listening to BINGOs). It doesn't seem like a coincidence that people on this forum (people who consider this decision carefully) seem to think about a lot of things deeply and are really fun to talk with.

Hi Deborah, welcome CDT, and hi everyone. I've been really full-on at work this last week so not posting much. I have a Friday off today - woohoo!

I just thought what your mother said to you (above), Deborah, was so beautifully insightful and gentle, and it is so true. When my mother left school she went to work in a bank (she was born in 1933, so this was around 1950). Her father was a railway worker so university was not even a vague possibility. She did really well at the bank and had a promising career there. Then she got engaged, and (this being the '50s) they told her at the bank that she had to leave. Apparently it was a given that if you were a woman and you got engaged to be married, you had to leave! I mean we can't even fathom this sort of stuff! So she left, married my Dad (who was a builder/joiner) and proceeded to have her children. They, like so many of our parents born in the depression/war years, worked hard to get their way up the ladder. They have had a humble life and worked for their family. Little wonder that when I was around 18 and started dating local boys that she would get angsty and nervous and try to encourage me to focus on my studies etc. She was constantly giving me the messages that I should go to university and have a career and be in no hurry at all to get married.

When I was in my 30's (I'm now 41) and regretting that I didn't have a child, I was kind of internally angry at her for pushing me this way. The way I saw it, I could have married my 2nd boyfriend and be a Mum. But when I was having these moments, I wasn't taking it all to its full conclusion - I would have been stuck in the suburbs, have never travelled, wouldn't have my amazing arts marketing career, wouldn't have lived in London and New York, have never experienced relationships with several different men during my lifetime (it's my past experiences in relationships that have helped me to find the right man now) etc etc. So now I can thank my Mum. Never once has she pressured me to have children. But, back to the original point - and I know Pikasam said something very eloquently about this recently - we are SO fortunate to have the choices we now have, and you can no longer compare like with like between our parent's generation and ours.

My Mum is now SO proud of her daughters. The three of us now have successful careers (even though my oldest two sisters are Mums - the middle sister SHOULDN'T have been a Mum, but that's another story) - one works in a disadvantaged community as a community advisor, the other is a human resources director and I am an arts marketer.

That "best part of being a woman" thing does eat at me sometimes. Recently I was browsing idly around a second-hand bookshop and I picked up a book about women's experiences or being a woman or something. Of course there was a chapter on pregnancy and childbirth (well, about half the book was about that). I was feeling a bit wobbly at the time, and I happened to open the book at a page where a mother of around 8 children was talking of her experience of almost constantly being pregnant or nursing. She said "I can't understand women who don't have children. All this equipment and never putting it to use". In my mindset at the time this did get me a bit. I wondered if I was indeed letting nature down - here she was supplying me all the equipment and a healthy body and I wouldn't reproduce. But then you could turn the tables on that competely. ie women who have kids but eat junk food and never exercise. All this equipment and never putting it to use. Or mindless people who have kids but never use their brain to make the world a better place or act like morons. All this brain equipment and never putting it to use.

Anyway, while I am feeling chatty, on the subject of being bingoed, I got bingoed in a good way the other day :-) I was talking to an amazing woman who is quite a role model for me (she's in arts marketing too and in her late 50s) about my new job the other day. I was sitting in her quirky apartment while her husband made me coffee. During the conversation about my career, she (known for being outrageous) said "so what about you and new hubby, what are you going to do, are you going to have babies?" I looked over at her husband, raised my eyebrows, he muttered something apologetic, and I said "funny how everyone asks me that question". She said "I just want to know whether we are going to lose you from arts marketing". I said "no, we're not going to have babies" and she said "GREAT, just needed to know you will still be around - now we can plan how we will work together". End of conversation!

Anyway, about to truly enjoy my day off in CF way - will stroll down to the beach, have coffee etc. Ironically, I was lying in bed reading (DH gone to work, 20 yo stepson still asleep) and the doorbell rang at 8.30am. "Dang" I thought, and decided to ignore it, being in my pjs etc. Anyway, it frantically rang and rang and rang and I could hear a perplexed woman saying "there's no-one home" and then shouring "HELLO?, HELLO?" So I threw on some jeans and went down and opened the door and here was this woman looking really surprised. She said "OMG I must have the wrong house. I was supposed to be picking up my daughter at 9am and I thought this was the house." She had another child in the passenger seat. I said "Sorry, wrong house, and excuse me looking like this, but I have a day off and was lying in bed reading". So the frantic and harassed mother apologised profusely and drove off and I went back to bed!

Love to you all from NZ

FeeBee

That's great Feebee. Especially where you were really relaxed and the parent was, as usual probably, rushing/stressing. We had a similar thing when we took our boys(the Malamutes) to the park. There were parents rushing around after children looking really stressed while we were playing with the boys, sharing some food, reading the papers with the boys stretched out next to us.

Hi everyone, really enjoyed reading your post FeeBee.
My Mum was exactly in that position - she was doing well in school when her father suggested she leave and get a job - they wanted to save the money for her brother's education. A common thing in those days because the assumption was that you'd be supported by your husband - and a boy needed a trade or profession to support his family. Mum got a job as a telephonist and was doing well - she loved being independent and earning her own money. Mum said that single woman (spinsters) were pitied in those days - sad figures - most girls wanted to be married by 21 or so. Mum married at 21 and was told - resign or she would be dismissed - she wanted to stay and was told she was taking the job of a married man. If a married woman worked she was considered greedy and also, the husband felt embarrassed as the perception was he couldn't provide for his wife and family.
Childless couples were pitied - if you didn't have children people assumed you couldn't have children.
No real options for women.
By the way, Mum's brother did not do well at school - he left school at 15 and took up an apprenticeship.
I know these facts motivated Mum to encourage her daughters to "reach for the sky" - we were a working class family and I remember a teacher laughing at me when I said I wanted to study law. I was so lucky to have open minded parents. They encouraged us to do our very best - my sister and I worked and put ourselves through our courses - Mum and Dad helped when they could. My sister is now a specialist in veterinary internal medicine having just completed her residency in the States.
I think we often have a rosy picture of the other side of life.
When I look at photographs of my high school friends taken at a recent reunion almost everyone has children but their life's are very different to mine - about 50% are divorced (some more than once)and struggling to raise children often with no child support, quite a few single mothers (never married) most have financial problems, a few have high needs children, most have jobs that don't pay well and have no career path, only a few people have travelled - a lot of them seemed unhappy.
In fact, I found the reunion very depressing - couldn't get back to my life fast enough. It really made me realize just how lucky I was to see past early marriage and children - most admitted to me they didn't even think about doing anything else or that it just happened. Education for me was my way out of that life and my parents open mindedness made that possible. I often wonder where this came from - even as a young child I knew I wanted to do other things in life - I never saw myself as a mother - I always knew I wanted to be independent, make my own money, travel and to have options and choices in life.
The flow on - Mum often travels with me - I often work in Japan and HK and she accompanies me and enjoys every minute!

I just loved your post Deborah. It helps me to feel how lucky I am that I didn't fall into the childraising trap. I know that feeling about going back to reunions.I just don't do it any more. The nicest thing about your post was the ending; that your Mum gets to now travel with you to Japan and Hong Kong. That is just great, and she so deserves it after being so open-minded with you and encouraging you to be all you can be. I'm just loving your Mum from over here! If you had become a mother, you wouldn't be working in Asia, and your mother wouldn't have these experiences.

Sometimes I think about my maternal grandmother. The poor thing married a railway worker who had no money and drank himself constantly into oblivion. He was unfaithful and they constantly fought. She had 4 children, including my mother - 3 boys. My mother once confided in me that when the American soldiers were here during the war (a time of great excitement and rare glamour for NZ girls) my grandmother had an extra-marital affair with an American soldier. My mother knew because sometimes she was asked to stand guard at the door. My mother was ashamed of her mother, but the story made me ache for my grandmother who must have had such a hard, depressing life. Apparently early in life for a short time she learned to play the cello (interesting, because I have an innate love of stringed instruments and work in the arts) but never came back to it after having children.

Her marriage ended and she had to then work to support 4 kids. When she retired, she moved into a little pensioner flat and apparently she had the happiest days of her life there. She had her independence, her solitude and just enough money to go on a couple of cruises. She died when I was 7 - I remember a cuddly, warm, wonderful Nana who made amazing stuffed toys (obviously a stifled creative talent).

I wish now I could somehow treat my grandmother to some nice times like you do your Mum. Sometimes I think she's acting like a guardian angel for me, giving me the opportunity to be creative and work in the arts and music.

Anyway, Deborah, I am having the loveliest day off. I have been lolling in the garden in the sun reading The 12 Secrets of Highly Creative Women and plotting to have more creative time in my life.

You are all wonderful women! I loved your post FeeBee (even though it was lengthy! I can relate to your experience....

We are 3 women in my family (I'm the middle child) and our father always encouraged us to study. He said that there would always be time for boys later - - we had to make something of ourselves so we would not have to depend on a man for anything. You know...he just did not want us to feel we ever had to stay in a bad marriage just because the man would be the 'bread winner'. He always told us, "Your education is the one thing I am giving you that nobody can ever take away from you". So, I studied - now have 2 Master's degrees and am a successful professional. One of my sisters is a physician and the other a successful businesswoman. Needless to say, I am sure my father left this world knowing his daughters would be alright.

I must confess that in my 20�s I was in total disagreement with my parents. My friends were in serious relationships, were getting married, and were doing what I wanted to do. I always thought that I would be married by the time I was 30 and have at least 2 kids by 33. Well�..it did not happen that way. I finished all my education when I was 27 and started a wonderful job that allowed me to travel internationally. I have seen so many countries and gotten to know so many cultures, met wonderful people and just have had unique experiences - - -I accomplished numerous things by the time I was 30 (am now 37) that my married w/ kids friends only dreamt of doing.

While I was enjoying myself working and traveling my biological was ticking! And boy did it tick! I turned 30 � was not married like I was supposed to have been, so I pushed my �goal� another 2 years. Thirty three years old still not married - - - my clock stopped ticking!!! I said to myself that if I ever had kids well great! And if I did not, ok too. I was enjoying my single (no kids life) too much. I was also realizing that my friends (who all had kids) could not do things they enjoyed doing anymore. I began to see that maybe �kids� were not for me. They restrict my freedom to go places at the spur of the moment.

While all of this was happening, my mother had a hard time understanding why I was not into any serious relationship. All my friends were married w/ kids but me. I told her that the more educated I became, the more boring I found men my age. They were either not into serious relationships or were playing around. At one point I even thought I intimidated them! Anyway, I leaned more towards older men. Last year I married a wonderful man (he�s a bit older than me � 25 years older) and it has been the best thing that has happened to me. He has 3 boys (the older two are married)....so I don't feel the pressure to have kids, besides he does not really want to start all over again. His youngest son (a 16 year old) lives with us (my husband is a widow) so he�s pretty much independent. I recently (2 weeks ago) became a (step) grandmother. It is great! I get to enjoy the baby girl, spoil her, and return her to her parents when I�ve had enough. We visited yesterday���.ooooh! I am soooo happy that my sleep is not interrupted in the middle of the night to nurse or to calm her down.

Anyway, even though my mother says something to me about kids every once in a while, I know she is very proud of everything that I have accomplished. She has seen how happy I am with my husband (the age difference was a source of constant argument in the beginning). And she also likes it that we get to travel - just me & her - every once in a while.

Oh! On a side note, my sisters also got married in their 30�s. One has a daughter the other one no kids � yet.

You all enjoy the weekend!

[quote=cdt] We are 3 women in my family (I'm the middle child) and our father always encouraged us to study. He said that there would always be time for boys later - - we had to make something of ourselves so we would not have to depend on a man for anything. You know...he just did not want us to feel we ever had to stay in a bad marriage just because the man would be the 'bread winner'. He always told us, "Your education is the one thing I am giving you that nobody can ever take away from you". So, I studied - now have 2 Master's degrees and am a successful professional. One of my sisters is a physician and the other a successful businesswoman. Needless to say, I am sure my father left this world knowing his daughters would be alright.

Thank you for sharing your story. Your Dad's thinking is just like mine, and I LOVE that he dispensed this thinking to you. My parents never said this to me, but this is what I determined by looking at the women around me - the only thing you can truly count on is yourself. And I HATE the idea of depending on a man. Education is so important for women. It gives us so many options, and, like you said, you don't have to stay in a bad situation - you can leave if things are bad. I learned this from looking at my grandmother's life. My grandfather used to beat her black and blue, and she couldn't leave b/c she had four kids to support. And her self esteem was completely destroyed by my grandfather, and she came to believe she deserved the abuse. So sad. She's in a nursing home now with Alzheimer's. Who knows for sure, but we speculate that all the blows she took to the head could have impacted her memory. I thank God that this will never be my fate.