BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Atheist Is it right to believe?

I was watching the movie "Secondhand Lions" last weekend (fun movie, btw) and the Robert Duvall character has a speech he gives to boys as they're growing up. In it he lists several things that are important to believe in, even if they're not true. He lists things like good always prevails, true love never dies, etc. This isn't the first time I've heard this opinion expressed, and not just about matters of the heart. The importance of the message, conclusions, or actions inspired was supposed to justify any falsehood in the "Hockey Stick Graph," I Rigoberta Menchu, or the Dan Rather forged memos.

There are some people, like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and the like, that believe religion should be stamped out, that religion is irredeemably corrupt and corrupting. I'm not sure I agree. Setting aside any physical or psychological benefits of prayer/meditation/contemplation, the argument that human life is important or that human rights are worthwhile because of their connection to the Divine is just as logically strong as any other justification I've heard. Admittedly, that's not saying much - in the end, all secular ethical justifications come down to "I/we do/don't like this."

So, I ask you: does the utility of religion transcend its veracity?

Well, I think that for some people it is a positive influence, helps them to be better people than otherwise. In those cases, I would rather have them believe the fantasy than rob, hurt others, etc. But there are those who pervert it and it makes them less than they could be. Not sure, though, if they would do something equally bigoted even if they didn't have their religion.

I think if we apply "first do no harm" to religion, than it can be a useful tool. Too many don't, sadly.

What worries me is the message that the person is not good enough on their own, ie: you are born into sin, have no choice about that, and you will never be accepted by your god, who is supposed to be a parent figure, unless you...

So, to my mind, that leaves a child, who has been initiated in such a religion from an early age, with the perception that he is worthless because he somehow keeps making the same mistakes due to which his heavenly parent can't love him, and if that's the case how can his earthly parents love him. Or maybe "love" is not the word, but you see my point? I've seen many young people reach the conclusion that "what's the point of trying to be good since I keep failing?"

[i]What worries me is the message that the person is not good enough on their own, ie: you are born into sin, have no choice about that, and you will never be accepted by your god, who is supposed to be a parent figure, unless you...[/]

That is the root cause why I am an atheist and have been all my life. I thought about that when I was 8, finalized my decision at 12. My initial forced belief was that "God hates you because you are a sinner." and that stayed with me. I asked "Show yourself, so I can have some sort of dialog to understand this." Nothing came back, therefore I don't give credence to thoughts about god. Very rarely do those thoughts do sometimes creep back into my conscience, but I re-apply the logic that I live my life by, and off those thoughts go back into their cubbyholes.

Those fundies that got hold of me back then really did a good job of creating an athiest

Well, disregarding that these objections are fairly specific towards Christianity, I do see some validity in the concept that humans need to take concrete steps to overcome their innate darker natures. After all, isn't the very definition of a psychopath someone who acts purely from their own desires, free of concerns for others?

Elle and Duane see one side of religion -- but from talking to my mom, what she picked up growing up was a loving god who loved children and animals... it wasn't until she got older and they started talking about this nasty, vengeful got who did horrid things like floods and plagues that she started questioning. She couldn't reconcile the two. (Hmm... multiple deity personality disorder? ;-) ) So, if you were raised in a belief variant that focused on the love, and not the "you are evil" bits, perhaps it could be more likely to be used for positive?

After all, isn't the very definition of a psychopath someone who acts purely from their own desires, free of concerns for others?

I found a quote (too long to paste in) that basically says that basically, atheists have no absolute moral beliefs (ie beliefs that apply to every human being in the world). This is not the same as not having ANY moral beliefs -- just that the morality of atheists is relative based the situation (society's views, etc that tend to change). Because having absolute moral beliefs implies absolute Rules, absolute Rules imply an absolute Rulemaker -- and that is the point of disagreement.

I am not implying that you are saying that atheists are psychopaths -- but it could be inferred from the previous message that that might be the case. I just wanted to make that clear.

Psychopaths come from all segments of society -- believers in god/gods, non-believers of such gods, rich, poor, you name it. They are not the exclusive realm of any one group. The best you can do is try your best to keep them from causing harm to society at large before they hurt people.



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Of course I wasn't stating that. I was saying that we (except for the psychopaths) all accept that we, personally, are capable of great evil, and that we need rules in place to govern our behavior. And furthermore we (again, except for the most radical of child advocates) also accept that bad behavior is innate, and that proper behavior needs to be taught. We believe this to the point where, when we see a child screaming in public or otherwise acting inappropriately, we blame the parent for not doing their job. We don't blame the child, since we expect the child to act that way of its own nature.



Substitute "polite society" for "god" and you've got a statement that everyone would agree with.

Correct -- if a child is left to grow without guidance, the typical self-centered, truly selfish "brat" comes out. Parenting is, by nature, a self-sacrificial responsibility, not a job which you can escape from briefly. Some don't have the will or ability to do all that is needed. Thusly, everyone suffers from a misbehaving kid, later in life. (Almost sounds like a post in the Married No Kids forum )