BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids my latest theory

"Common sense is the least common of the senses"....My Dad.

You are so right, Duane, except I would disagree on the dates a little. I would put a broader time frame. I have first hand experience dealing with teenagers whose parents are close to my age (late 30's to early/mid 40's), and I can tell you that these parents have done an extremely poor job to put it mildly.

As I have posted here before, I own a sub shop and because of our very low margins (the subject of another forum altogether) we can only afford to hire almost no one but teenagers, so in the past year and a half I have dealt with a group of about 60 teenagers (the turnover is unbelievably high) as my employees and I can tell you, it has not been pretty. Here are a few characteristics I have noticed in general, although there are, of course, exceptions:
- Unable to focus and carry out tasks in order. It takes about 5 or 6 steps to make a sandwich. You need to learn a few recipes, but it's not rocket science. Some of these kids simply do not get it, no matter how many times they do the same task. Is it an excess of video games/TV/computer that causes the lack of concentration? I don't know. I'm no psychologist, but it's a guess.
- Complete lack of skills. I mean, you don't need much to work at my place, except I do expect everyone to know how to wash a dish, sweep and mop. I can tell some of these kids have never touched a broom or a mop. Doesn't anyone help with house chores anymore? When I was growing up we had a 'kitchen cleanup and dishwashing' schedule, and my brother, my sister and I better stuck to it if we knew what was good for us, and this was since we were about 8 or 9!! What's going on nowdays?
- No responsibility or work ethics. Between 20 to 30% of the kids I've hired have either shown up just one day or two and then haven't come back, or haven't shown up for their first day of work at all! No phone calls, no explanation, nothing!
- No ambition or curiosity about the world around them. This is one of the biggies. More than half of these kids have dropped out of high school. To be more specific, out of all the kids that have worked for me, only 6 have finished high school, with only 4 of them either attending, or having plans to attend college (our shop is in a middle/lower income area, but I still think it's a pretty good sample). What worries me the most is that the lack of stimulation and encouragement is so palpable when you talk to them that you can even touch them. You ask them about their plans for their future and almost no one thinks beyond buying a car. Oh, and try and talk to them about a current issue, say...global warming for example. With only a couple of exceptions, most of them are clueless!....I read in a different thread that someone commented how some parents get upset with us, the CF bunch, because it is their kids who are going to pay for our social security ...hmmm...really?? After dealing with these kids, I can tell you: You better start saving for retirement, because there is not much to be expected from these teenagers. And since I'm on a roll, can I also say what an extremely poor job our educational system is doing today? These kids don't know even the very basics. I had this one girl, a senior. She would go to school about 3 days a week only, that is she had a 60% attendance. One day I asked her to tell me how much was 20% of 100, and she couldn't tell me. Don't they teach that like in..6th. grade? At least that's when I learned it, I think. Oh, and by the way, she did graduate from high school, so that tells you right there what a high school diploma means nowdays.

I'm sorry about the long post, but this subject gets me going. I painfully experience the results of this 'parenting' (if you can call it that!) every single day. These kids need so much guidance, so much attention, so much nurturing (they are sooo emotionally needy) and they certainly don't get it from their parents. If I wrote about every single example, believe me, it would take another forum altogether (kids that are raising themselves, supporting themselves at age 16, teenage mothers, etc..). I mean, some of them just cry out for parental guidance, and some of them come to me for advice on a lot of issues. I try to be their friend, and sometimes even their mentor, but I am not their mother. I refuse to take on the role because a) there is a reason I don't have kids..I don't want them, and b) why should I take a role from someone who just plainly surrendered their parental responsibilities? I refuse to do it.

Oh, and I'm not even going to go into my experiences in the teenage websites/forums. I work part-time as a researcher for Google and have to visit many different pages on all topics and interests, so I've been to many sites and forums frequented by teenagers. It's scary in so many levels!!

Thank you all for letting me vent. Duane's post just resonated with me so much that I just had to share my two cents with this wonderful forum.

BTW, feel free to rant - I'm not going to stop you -- really! Sometimes we all need to rant.

Here's a quickie response: I am not 100% athiest -- I have a bit of "beaten into kids" belief of a God that punishes the wicked (the only way to get a kid to believe) that is a permanent part of me. My logical brain tell me that a God can't exist, or if he does, he doesn't want to show his face to us for proof, or is inept or a hypocrite, thusly I think this way. You gave a good example of the hypocracy above. I'm as close to pure 100% athiest that you can get, without being "in your fac" about it. In many ways, being an athiest is a lot like being CF -- you get told "you will change your mind" by others. Smart people will not bother you about your choide, but everyone else WILL BE in your face. In general, that's why I am quiet about such things. Only two close co-workers (my assistant in email, and my assistant in WAN matters) knows my CF stance, and my athiestic stance. No one else knows my religious lack of beliefs. Most know about my CF stance (as they had a party for me when I got married), but that's ok -- they're understanding.

You sound more like an agnostic, rather than an athiest or what people call a Deist. That is, you're not sure, or if you are a little bit sure, you don't know what form this being takes, and you do not wish to worship it -- there's nothing wrong with that at all. A Deist usually has a stronger, "more sure", belief than an agnostic. I've done a lot of reading on this

PS: I agree with your ranting!

This drives me nuts, too. It's disgusting when someone that completely ignored their first rounds of kids goes on to bear more. Don't their wives recognize that they are deadbeat fathers? Don't the wives know that they are the spouse of the moment, and will probably also be discarded when they aren't trophy material anymore. And I've also seen scenarios when the divorced father fails to support their child, but instead spends all of their money on their new girlfriend. You know, the one they met after they divorced. It's like, I don't have to support my child anymore if I'm no longer married to the child's mother. WRONG! My friend's ex did this - he owed her money, but then went to Europe with his new girlfriend. Unreal.

I've been wanting to reply to all who responded for awhile now ... time just gets away from me! I really appreciated that many of you took the time to respond and share your thoughts.

Emerald Wednesday - thanks! Good to know that I can still be lucid after a glass of wine

HTBCF - that is really weird!!! (the prison analogy thing). I've been married awhile (12 years) so the big shift from living "selfishly" to living as a spouse, doesn't seem like a big deal to me now. I am so very glad I had those years when I could live life however *I* wanted - much as I love my life now and would never go back - it was absolutely great to do basically whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted! I married younger (23 years) so I can see how it would be a bigger change when you've had more time on your own. If it's the right man, though, there will be so much to enjoy being together - although you may miss some of the "freedom" of the single state at times.

I agree that it's the kids who suffer most in the big picture, when they are just "step D" of the scripted life plan that "everybody does". (kind of makes me wonder if those who become parents like this, are also more likely to buy the trendy clothes, listen to the popular music, generally be more subject to media & peer pressure?)

I think that the reason I so enjoy participating in this forum is taht so many of us are "thinkers" I know parents who are, of course, but somehow I haven't found many. Perhapd conversation just ends up tilting too easily to kids and the big ideas stuff just doesn't come up.

"self-actualized!" now that was the word I was searching for thanks HTBCF! I can't take credit for the idea that having a child is the quick way to find a purpose in life, though - that is from an earlier post on here but I don't remember what thread or who wrote it.

" I think everyone probably has many talents, but sadly, some people never let themselves try things, or think outside the box. It's the only way to find yourself, though. That's the kicker." - HTBCF -

Very true - doing what we are afraid of, or what is not socially approved of, is what builds the most character "muscle." Why SAHM looks easier than, for example, getting a job and paying your own way - I don't know. But that could make it cowardly to have parenting as a default position - ye gods, not a good start for the kids. You sure as heck need courage if you're going to deal effectively with temper tantrums, appropriate discipline, etc. (not saying it is cowardly for everyone but it may be for some).

I really enjoyed your reply!

"Hubby likens it to being in a plane crash...if you hoard all the food and no one else can have it, you're selfish. But if you're the only survivor, no one would call you selfish for taking all the food. So without a harmed or offended party, there is no selfishness." - Rogue

I guess I agree with your DH's definition of selfishness - it isn't selfish unless it causes harm to someone else - which may be why I was so baffled to hear that it's a common experience for the CF to hear the comment about being selfish. What a terrific analogy - thanks for sharing it!

I agree that it can be a selfish decision ot have a child. I'm also coming aroudn to the thought that for most of the population, it really is a biological imperative - a feeling that they want to procreate. I think HTBCF posted a link to an article questioning the biology of CF. For example, I believe it's pretty well established that there are differences in the brain homosexual people (the amygdala I think) and there have been correlations with different stresses in pregnancy influencing this brain development. I don't think it's a big stretch to say there might be a difference in the brain of some people, that causes the mushy parent feelings to not be there, or not be as strong. If it happens in response to the stress of overpopulation, it would even be a mechanism to help our species survive and not ruin its ecology (though we are rapidly doing just that anyway). I am not saying this would be the only reason, but just that some people having parental feelings and others not, may have a basis in biology. And having the urge to procreate does NOT mean that you automatically should.

Ingilbert - thanks for responding!

Duane
Hee hee, I appreciated the lines from Blame Canada, since I am Canadian! I guess this is one of the troubling and puzzling things to me about what seems like almost a fear of the CF. (I have to say I've not really seen such dramatic negativity, nor has my CF best friend, but you all seem to have had some pretty heavy times of it.) Why would there be such vitriol? Being CF does not hurt anyone. So why do people feel threatened? (maybe they're afraid you'll convert their kids to CF-ism and then they'll never have grandchildren ... which is often said to be the real reward for parenting, because you can play with the kids and give them back). Maybe to them, it is like the CF are a different species or something.

greenblue - maybe I should always have a glass of wine before writing thanks for your reply.

"In my experience, my friends who have chosen to become parents because that is what they truly want, never make condescending comments about my choice to be CF. They are comfortable with their decision and appreciate that I'm happy with my choice. On the other hand....I know quite a few others who just let life happen, and those are the ones who feel compelled to make the critical comments. " - greenblue

Aha! can I call this observation to support my theory? Ok, I know it might not be scientific, but thanks for sharing this

"The people who "walk the walk" don't complain or feel the need to criticize others, no matter what end of the spectrum they are on (PBC or CFBC). Unfortunately, the path of least resistance (just do it without thought, be it marriage or parenthood), constitues, by far, the largest group. From that group are the cruel, heartless people who can't stand to see others happier than they are. " - Duane

Wow, this is a scary thought. So it's actually happiness, joy, peace etc. that they would be opposing ... I have often seen this "let's take everybody down to the lowest common denominator, because that's only fair" argument (for example, in how mnay weeks holiday people should have). Why do people not think of raising everyone up to a more desirable standard? I think you really have something here.

What is scary is that I know many people who are "religious sheep" ... which would mean they have the potential to live up to (or down to) your post. (I am actually religious (roman catholic, but it's way different here in Canada than apparently it is in some parts of the USA ... they *encourage* you to question!), believe in God, following a meditation program, etc. I woudlnt' call myself a religious sheep. But I do know some who are.

"Sadly, almost no one wants to go through that much mental effort nowadays." - Duane

Yes, I think that is a huge part of the problem. It's so much easier to check out and watch some mind-numbing TV before falling into bed. How many people give themselves time & space & silence to think?

Whew!

I hope to respond to more tomorrow but that's it for now

Cheers,

Andie

Duane
Hee hee, I appreciated the lines from Blame Canada, since I am Canadian! I guess this is one of the troubling and puzzling things to me about what seems like almost a fear of the CF. (I have to say I've not really seen such dramatic negativity, nor has my CF best friend, but you all seem to have had some pretty heavy times of it.) Why would there be such vitriol? Being CF does not hurt anyone. So why do people feel threatened? (maybe they're afraid you'll convert their kids to CF-ism and then they'll never have grandchildren ... which is often said to be the real reward for parenting, because you can play with the kids and give them back). Maybe to them, it is like the CF are a different species or something.

My idea about that is that parents want their children to only be associated with "like" people. That is, if the parents are rich, they only want their kids to associate with "rich" kids. If the parents are racist, they want their kids to associate with kids of their own race. What is not "like" to the parents is immediately repulsive, because we might "infect" a child's mind with non-mainstream ideas. Thusly, why CF people, if evident, are not wanted by other people. That's why open athiests are shunned by parents who are believers if they are perceived that they want to spread their non-belief. That is why homosexuals are perceived by the more radical of people that 'talking' to a homosexual might cause that lifestyle/type of person to be seen as 'good'.

Not that I like that -- by no means -- but that is the reality of "protecting" children from the (I don't like to say it, but that is what is thought...) deviants of proper soceity.

"The people who "walk the walk" don't complain or feel the need to criticize others, no matter what end of the spectrum they are on (PBC or CFBC). Unfortunately, the path of least resistance (just do it without thought, be it marriage or parenthood), constitues, by far, the largest group. From that group are the cruel, heartless people who can't stand to see others happier than they are. " - Duane

Wow, this is a scary thought. So it's actually happiness, joy, peace etc. that they would be opposing ... I have often seen this "let's take everybody down to the lowest common denominator, because that's only fair" argument (for example, in how mnay weeks holiday people should have). Why do people not think of raising everyone up to a more desirable standard? I think you really have something here.

Humans, by nature, are greedy, out-for-themselves people. It takes a mature, civilized mind to want to bring others to happiness. Most people, when not happy, don't want to go through the effort to try to make others happier when they aren't happy. They see CF peoples happy, go-lucky, carefree, travelling with freedom that the "happy" parents don't have, and never will have again. It's not a matter for these "happy" parents to become happy with freedom -- they CAN'T move to our CF level. Thusly, their only reaction is to bring US down to their level, either through guilt feelings, intimidation, or jut plain old harassment and disdain. That's my take on it.

What is scary is that I know many people who are "religious sheep" ... which would mean they have the potential to live up to (or down to) your post. (I am actually religious (roman catholic, but it's way different here in Canada than apparently it is in some parts of the USA ... they *encourage* you to question!), believe in God, following a meditation program, etc. I woudlnt' call myself a religious sheep. But I do know some who are.

If you actually thought about and have come to your belief through questioning, then more power to you! My main disagreement with the religous establishment is that it seems most of them are "religious sheep", doing what they are told without thought, yet returning to their own ways when they are not in church. That is, they are hypocrites. That's who I can't really stand.

"Sadly, almost no one wants to go through that much mental effort nowadays." - Duane

Yes, I think that is a huge part of the problem. It's so much easier to check out and watch some mind-numbing TV before falling into bed. How many people give themselves time & space & silence to think?

My wife and I have our own "built in" time and space. We do not sleep in the same bed -- we never have, because neither of us would get any sleep if we did. That's not to say that we don't spend time together -- not at all. It's just that we don't fall asleep together and wake up in the morning together. One side effect of this is that we have our own "alone" time built-in each day, wherein we contemplate our own thoughts, do what we want. She wants to watch baseball/hockey, and I like to watch my recorded documentaries in my room. It makes us both happier. Yes, that is ALSO not the norm for couples, married or not, but so what -- what works for most people does not work for me, if you want me to be awake and productive in the morning.

I don't know if it's just the people I know, but all my friends who have kids are the total opposite of the parents I see in their 30's. All my friends are very strict disciplinarians - their kids are very well-behaved in public, they are not greedy, they do not scream to get their way.

But, I see parents who are in their 30's and very young parents (20ish) who just let them run wild.

It must just be that the group I hang around with is awesome. Although, my sister was a terror and dropped out of college and she's the best mom out of all of them.

Ok, sometime ya can't predict such things -- generalities are, well, generalities. There are always exceptions. Or, I could be just wrong, as well. It has been known to happen...