BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids my latest theory

I'll make this quick -- I can really get into this subject, and techincally this forum is not the one to get in depth about this: I questioned religion/spirituality as a kid -- I asked "Why is this? What is that?" Answer: One of two things: "Just believe" or "Shut up." That's why I believe (or don't) the way I do. I question, I am told to shut up or just take it on faith, which I never had. Undergo that for 5 formative years, and you make an unbeliever.

Oh, my! You have touched so many interesting points, and all so true. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have always been a 'thinker', meaning that I've thought things thoroughly, from many different aspects. Maybe I have acted more cautiously in some instances than other people, but I have seldom regretted my choices. On the subject of having children, I was once talking to a friend about it and telling her how, the more I thought about it, the more certain I was that having them was not a good idea for me, and that it didn't feel right to just have a child under the premise of 'not being alone in our old age'. Well, she literally said, and I quote: 'Well, maybe you shouldn't think about it so much and just do it. Whatever reason you can think of, even having them so you won't be alone in your old age, is a good-enough reason!"???? Hmmmm...No, I don't think so. It's the most important decision of your life, because it affects an innocent 3rd. party, and you SHOULD think about it over and over again.

The other point I loved in Andie's post is the one about truly knowing ourselves, and living with joy, passion and being comfortable in our own skin. How true! The journey towards self-knowledge and comfort in my own skin has been a long one for me, though. I have to honestly say that it hasn't been until the last couple of years that I have started to truly know myself, make peace with all my negative qualities, my passions, etc.. I know I wouldn't have been able to take this journey if I'd had a child to care for and whose needs had to be met before mine, which takes me to the obvious question: How can anyone be prepared to raise a child if they are not sure of who they truly are? What can anyone provide him/her emotionally and intelectually, if they are unsure of themselves, their relationships and the world around? It beats me.

Thanks for such a thoughtful post, Andie. It's one of my favorites so far. I so wish I had your eloquence (and a lot of other members', as well)! I get so tangled up with words.

I know that song from they might be giants. I have always been caught up in that line...and another in that song..."there is only one thing that you know how to do well and you've often been told that you only can do what you know how to do well and thats be you...be like yourself...be what your like..."

I live my life by this. I am me. I am good at being me...Not so good at being someone else!

I often think that if I had gotten pregnant at 20 I would have had the baby. I had no idea what I wanted or really who I was. At 32, I know myself WAY to well. I have seen so many women willingly admit that they were choosing motherhood because it was preferable to them to working full time. Those are the parents I have trouble with. I am all for people having children because they WANT to...but to get out of going to work? Makes be glad I have a job I enjoy!!

I question everything and have never had much success with religion...or corporate employment for that matter

I've had people say stuff like this to me, too. People are so afraid of thinking, and also so afraid of being alone. I've already been alone, and had my own apartment for years, and guess what, I loved it! It's not a big deal! As far as your friend's statment, no one would ever make a suggestion like this with regards to any other major life decision. You want a new car or house, just close your eyes and point to one in the brochure. You want to get married, just marry the first person you meet. How can people be this warped in their thinking (or not thinking) about parenting. It boggles the mind.

Selfish does have a negative connotation, and is meant as a detractor when describing CF adults. It's kind of liking saying "you're fat" to someone. How do you form a counter argument to a statement like that? You could use the argument you described, but people that are that basic aren't going to get it. It's best to just walk away.

I agree with you - it's like we are cheating an invisible person of a life. But the life doesn't exist, so how can we talk about it?

And, I hate to state the obvious, but when a parent is selfless, once the kids come along, it isn't a choice. If someone's child is screaming in the middle of the night, it's not like they can say, hmm, I have a choice here. I can be selfish and go back to sleep, or be selfless and get up and tend to the baby. There's no choice! It's forced selflessness. So if it isn't voluntary, how much praise should someone get for doing the right thing? If I sleep in, and there's no baby in my house, who am I hurting? I don't know if this makes any sense when it hits the paper, hopefully it does.

Sorry, I just can't shut up about this. I'm on a roll. But have any of you also noticed that the CF = selfish and Parent = selfless person is such a blanket assumption? I have respect for the real parents out there, that guide, love and discipline their kids, and really wanted them. But are they the majority? No, not in my opinion. I love when people that got pregnant as teenagers judge me for not "choosing" parenthood. They didn't "choose" it either, it just happened to them. With that said, I think it sucks that a mistake in your teenage years is pretty much with you for the rest of your life. People make mistakes. And, if someone is in the position where they didn't plan their pregnancies, they can continue to either choose parenthood or not. They can own up to their responsibilities, or not. I know a teenage Mom that embraces her role, and then there's my sister, who is still in denial about being a mother, and her son is 7.

All I'm saying is, not all parents are created alike. Technically, my nephew's father is a parent, but he hasn't seen his son since my nephew was six months old. When people talks about fathers, he is technically in that category. There are so many parents that didn't consciously choose parenthood, and yet they are all lumped in the same category, and receive praise from society, whether they are good parents or not. There are so many fathers that are fathers in name only. They tell people at work they are "fathers," and people think they are heroes. Meanwhile, back at home, they don't help their wives or interact with their kids.

I agree about the whole "father" thing. My dad is one of those people who seems to be very proud about being a father (well, half the time.) But where was he EVER? He divorced his first wife when their child was 1, and he divorced my mom when I was 4. He had joint custody of my sister until she was 10 (that was when he divorced my mom.) After that, where was he? I saw him once a week and that consisted of watching wrestling on TV. He took me to see two movies EVER. I remember what they were, too. And I don't think he ever took me to the zoo or anything else like that.

So a dad you see once a week to watch TV with and then the holidays. Wow, you did a LOT. Although, when I was a teenager, I spent every other weekend or so at his house, but that was MY idea, not his.

And then he says things like, "I didn't do a bad job with you girls. You turned out pretty well." Yeah, that's because our moms raised us and they are both good people who knew what they were doing. Honestly, he had very little with the way we turned out, except that we both inherited his temper and anxiety.

I shouldn't be so hard on him. He tries now, but it's like, why should I bother? You didn't make time for me when I was the most impressionable. Why should I make time for you now? But then I feel so bad. I don't want to feel guilty when he's gone, so I usually do try to get together when he makes the effort.

And I wish I didn't think that that makes me better than him. I make the effort, even though at this point I shouldn't have to.

I've been thinking about this as well.

I do not want to oversimplify, but here is my guess as to why this activity (bratty, unbehaved children) is now a big problem.

The brats that are bothering people today (CF or not) are the children of parents who were born in the 1980s. During that time, the teenage pregnancy rate/single parent rate shot up as it became not as large a social stigma. I remember that in my high school, girls were allowed to be pregnant and attend school (this was between 1981 and 1985). They were not shunned or sent to "special" schools as in previous decades. In the 1990s, it became more accepted to have a child without a husband/being married.

Children learn from the actions of their parents and their environment around them. If kids see high school girls that are pregnant, have role models of women who have children without husbands, and see their single mothers/fathers, who more likely were not ready for that role, they think that is the norm. In addition, the children that were from these pregnancies, more likely than not, probably were allowed to get away with everything they wanted or did. That is, the parents to these new breeders, who said "NO" to these now-parents, caused these thoughts in the "new" breeders: "I didn't have a happy life because I was said "NO" to. For MY kid, I will NEVER say no to her! She will get EVERYTHING she wants! I'll give her the freedom that I NEVER had!"

Thusly, the brats that pester us today, that are unruly, are, in general, the products of a rebellion. They don't care about how the kid acts, because they don't want to "stunt little Suzy's emotional growth." They want little Suzy to "be their best friend," thusly Suzy runs around and does whatever the hell she wants without any retribution.

I was priveledged that I did have parents who sacrified and cared and disciplined me when I was bad. That made me a respectful, nice, caring person. Unfortunately, that attitude now seems like a rarity as simple obserations seem to bear out.

I realize that I might be painting, inadvertently, good, caring parents with a broad brush stroke. That is not my intention. Those parents by choice (PBC) have my utmost respect. It just seems to be a fact of life that more and more of the children now are just plain rude and insensitive to the needs of others, ESPECIALLY other adults. I would be given a good spanking if I talked back to other adults, the way that some of these brats mouth off to other adults. And don't think that they KNOW that they can start screaming "Mommy, don't spank me" and Mommy WON'T because she is afraid of a visit from Child Protective Services.

Common sense, literally, is a rarity, IMO.

Hey Duane,

I thought I was a believer for a long time (my first marriage was in the Episcopal church). But it turns out that just about every Episcopal priest I'd known in my life turned out to be a scheisster ( forgive my German!). My dad, who'd studied at divinity school but never finished, is one of the least ethical people I know; the ministerat my childhood church had an affair with a member of the choir and was defrocked; and his replacement took funds from the church and tried to funnel it nito his pet project: bringing his non-Christian guru (some guy from a tiny Pacific island) to the community where the church was, setting him up in residence in the homes of one of his flock, and "converting" the congregation to worship the guru.

That, plus the fact that almost all major religions advocate against killing others (yet their adherents keep doing just that) has pretty much soured me on organized religion. I'm not 100% atheist, I don't think...more of a Deist (i.e., there's probably a creator of some kind somewhere, but he's not some old man with a white beard...and he's sure not watching over us. He's probably off playing golf at the other end of the universe, or hell, maybe in a *different* universe.

I agree with another post you made about CF atheists being the lowest on the totem pole, Duane. CF atheists tick even *more* people off than garden-variety CFs do!

Duane,

I agree with everything you've said about the stigma of teen pregnancy/single motherhood having disappeared, and how that's caused problems.

However, I don't think the majority of kids who are unruly today are the product of parents born in the 80s. Sure, there are plenty of moms in their 20s (80s kids) who are entitled and asleep at the switch. But there are *plenty* of Boomers whose kids are complete terrors. Some (not all!) Boomers think that they hung the moon, no matter what the topic...they re-designed --- or created --- sex and drugs and rock and roll.

Also, implicating my own Gen-X generation: the "AlternaDad" crowd that are in their 30s now are some of the most annoying of all (y'know, the ones who say "I'm a parent, sure, but I'm every bit as hip and edgy as ever. My kid is going to listen to Iggy Pop, The Cure, or Coldplay on his iPod, dressed in his BabyGap clothes, while we take his stroller down to the Starbucks and read the Arts section"). They're trying so hard to be "hip" despite parenthood that their kids are terrors and they're the last to notice. Sorry, folks, but having kids is not about "making the scene".

But don't try to tell them that. Actively disciplining your child is so, like, uncool, man.

And don't get me started on the Tony Randalls and Larry Kings of this world, who have their kids in their 60s, 70s and 80s (probably just to prove that their plumbing still works) with their 3rd or 6th trophy wife, having utterly ignored the legions of children from previous marriages. Those kids will be well adjusted, no?

Elise
(an Xer, but many of my friends are Boomers --- y'know, the actually cool kind?