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Next.. The outcome of World War II

O.K.. The war was won.. the victory dance was done.. but what did the Allies accomplish?

First of all let's look at who was our friend back then.. Well our President Franklin Roosevelt had a very dear Russian friend.. His name was Joseph Stalin, affectionately known to Franklin D as "Uncle Joe."

Now, at the same time that Hitler was rampaging his way through Europe, so was dear "Uncle Joe." In fact, the atocities that Joseph Stalin commited were worse than those that Hitler committed. But, that did not seem to concern Mr. Roosevelt at all.

Now, the reason everyone got all upset in the first place was the fact that Hitler wanted to invade Poland. Noone wanted to see Poland under Nazi rule.. right? That would be a horrible fate. Right?

Well, after the war.. guess who wound up in control of Poland.. You got it.. Joseph Stalin. Wonderful victory was that.

Of course, the comradeship of the U.S and "Uncle Joe" came to an abrupt end when Harry Truman took over. Whereas Roosevelt loved the Russians and hated the Germans.. Truman loved the Germans and hated the Russians..lol

So, the American people were forced to change their attitudes. Truman pointed out that not all Germans were bad.. in fact, they were nice people.. but those Russians.. that was another story.

Thank you Linda. That's all I was trying to say: We need to learn from history not bury it in glory because beautiful young men and women died for their countries. We need to separate that emotional reaction from the very urgent and important necessity to not repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Hindsight is cruel, but necessary. Studying and analysing history is not disrespectful, it's necessary. What happens when nobody questions their elders and betters? What happens when somebody tells you that thinking for yourself is wrong because you might expose a flaw in their logic?

I agree!!! our youth need to be taught to think for themselves!!
I think the soldior should be respected but I also think we need to learn from our past and make some changes for the better!! I think this Honers the soldior more then starting more wars!!!

Linda,
Just a few points regarding your response, and a couple of corrections.



Italy fought on the side of the Allies in WW1. See below:

"The 5 main countries that fought on the side of and led the Allied Powers was France, Russia, the British Empire, Italy, and the United States"



Could you provide the source of this please? I'd like to read it. My understanding is that there was no willingness on the side of Germany to end the conflict, and I really don't believe that the entry of the US prolonged it. I am willing to see documented proof though, if you have it.



This is incorrect. It had already happened BEFORE the US entered the war, andnothing would have stopped it. The dates just don't fit your statement. See below:

1917

* In March 1917 there was a left-wing revolution in Russia that overthrew the Tsar, but Russia continued fighting.

* April 1917 saw America enter the war.

* In Novemver 1917 the Bolshevists seized power in Russia and announced their intention of pulling Russia out of WW1.

The Russian Revolution

In March 1917, demonstrations in St. Petersburg culminated in the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II and the appointment of a weak centrist Provisional Government, which shared power with the socialists of the Petrograd Soviet. This division of power led to confusion and chaos, both on the front and at home, and the army became progressively less able to effectively resist Germany. Meanwhile, the war, and the government, became more and more unpopular, and the discontent was used strategically by the Bolshevik party, led by Vladimir Lenin, in order to gain power.

The triumph of the Bolsheviks in November was followed in December by an armistice and negotiations with Germany. At first, the Bolsheviks refused to agree to the harsh German terms, but when Germany resumed the war and marched with impunity across Ukraine, the new government acceded to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk on March 3, 1918, which took Russia out of the war and ceded vast territories including Finland, the Baltic provinces, Poland and Ukraine to the Central Powers.



I have previously stated that the terms imposed on the Germans at the end of the war were, in my opinion, what set the stage for the rise of the Nazi regime.

Percy.

Linda, are you suggesting that no action should have been taken to try to stop the carnage the Japanese were inflicting on China?
How else were they going to stop these murderous atrocities? What other measures which did not involve military action were possible please?



This is not exactly accurate. The allied troops had very little advantage in the early years of the Pacific war. Their fleet was devastated and new ships had to be built. (Britain was helpless to contribute much and Australia and NZ were very lacking in military power.) Japan had supremecy of the sea, air, and they had already more troops on land than the allied powers. Singapore fell quickly, as did most of the islands in the South Pacific. Australia was in danger of being cut off, which is why we sought the help of the US who sent troops here and made the East coat of Australia a 'fortress'. The Battle of the Coral Sea turned back the proposed Japanese invasion of Port Moresby. If Port Moresby in New Guinea had fallen to the Japanese as everything above it and to the north, west and east of it already had by 1942, Australia would have been lost. So it was a fight for survival - not a plan to starve the Japanese out because they lived on an island. That didn't become a possibility until well into 1944.




But they still kept on fighting and refused to give up! They continued to send suicide planes to wipe out allied ships and they continued their barbarism on our POWs and civilian prisoners.



Perhaps a combination of both, but JUST to impress the Russians? I think not! The Russians didn't need to see it dropped to know how powerful it was. They had their own plans.



Yeah! And don't forget about the millions of people that the Japanese killed and tortured! Why is it that some people are quick to blame the countries that were the victims, and talk about how terrible it was for the Japanese? It reminds me of how, when someone gets raped, some 'do gooder' is quick to come in and say they asked for it, and feel sorry for the rapist!



What makes you an authority on whether or not it was necessary Linda? Were you even born at the time? Wisdom in hindsight can be wonderful, but blind.

The cold blooded murder by the Japanese of millions of civilians wasn't very moral either, but I don't hear you crying for them. And no, the bombs weren't necessary if you would be happy to have seen the whole of Japan go into oblivion through starvation and disease, or the blood bath I spoke of in my previous post because, though you don't seem to get it, the Japanese would not have given in any other way. Just ask the GI's who fought them.

Percy.

Well, I'm alive today, and so are you. Australia is a free country and so is yours, and you and I have freedom to express our views, and enjoy life, and we have the finances to own computers and homes, and have freedom of religion and not live in slavery. And Germany and Japan are now rich, flourishing countries.

I'm grateful, even if you're not.

Percy.

I guess it all depends on whose propaganda you believe. Every country involved in both wars believed that it was correct in whatever action it was taking.

If you lived in Japan you would most likely have fought for your Emperor..if you lived in Germany, there is a good chance you may have become a Nazi. And, you would have been convinced that you were fighting on the "right" side.

I am sure that to the countries involved the United States was not seen as the "good guys."

So, who was "right" and who was "wrong?" It all depends on your point of view.

Was it any more wrong of Hitler to exterminate the Jews than it was for us to kill over 200,000 Japanese citizens? How can you justify that kind of carnage? Would what the Japanese did to the Chinese have been any less devastating than what we did to them?

What you don't seem to get is that human lives are valuable .. no matter who you may consider to be the enemy.. You ask me if it would have been right to allow them to come and torture and murder our people... but yet you feel that it is right that we did that to them? We inflicted harm that lasted through generations.. irrepairable harm.

Look at what we are doing in Iraq? Do we even know what we are fighting about or for? Don't you think that this whole war is nothing more than an act of vengence from an arrogant dictator we call a President?

No Percy.. I cry for all of humankind that we can be that cruel to each other, and that we don't learn from our mistakes.. we are still at war.. killing each other needlessly.. so when does it stop?

LOL.. Free country huh Percy? I don't know about Australia, but we have thousands of homeless people here in America. In fact, in South Dakota on Pine Ridge Reservation there is a large number of Native American Lakota/Sioux living in abject poverty.

We are illegally taked on our incomes.. we left England because of that.. but if you don't pay your illegal taxes.. you lose everything you own. Our land is taxed, and our automobiles are taxed.

If you don't have the money to buy auto insurance you can't drive.. if you don't have the money to get medical or dental insurance you don't get treatment or the treatment you get is inadequate.

Our elderly are eating catfood because they don't get enough social security to live on. The cost of living is more than the money we are earning.

We are a paper and plastic society who is bound to the whims of the Gods who produce the green paper.

It wasn't until about a hundred years ago that women were even allowed to vote, let alone run for public office.. and even now there are religions who won't recognize women as spiritual leaders. And, look at the battles that have been fought as little as 30 years ago concerning the rights of minorities.

We have yet to see a black man or woman as President.

Yes, we have come a long way in our fight for freedom.. but it is an ongoing fight. And, it has been fought through many generations of courageous people. They are every bit as brave as those who have fought in the wars. And, their "weapons" have been love and wisdom.

Freedom and equality don't exist here Percy. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The haves have and have nots don't

No, I am not grateful to be a member of a society that has built it's power upon the blood of others. I am happy to be alive.. and a part of this beautiful world.. but I don't and never will pledge allegiance to America.

Linda, with due respect, you look at situations as if they are equal, and they are not. Your view is without balance. The terrible things that the enemy did in WW2 far outweigh what was done by the allied forces. You cant put it all in a bowl and say it's all the same when the circumstances were not the same. Remember that there wouldn't have BEEN a war in the Pacific if there had not been aggression against helpless countries in the first place. I've already explained what would have happened if the Japanese mainland had been invaded to end the war. MORE deaths. It would have been worse than the effects of the two bombs.

Why do people make a big song and dance about the perpetrators of crimes, and seem to forget their victims? There's an awful lot of that around these days and it makes me sick.

How dare you say that the FACTS about WW2 are just propaganda!Especially as you weren't here at the time to be a witness!

Tell the people who SAW and EXPERIENCED these atrocities that they are just believing propaganda! Tell the survivors of the holocaust that their stories are just propaganda. Tell the women and children who were butchered that it was just their country's propaganda. Tell my relatives in Germany that it was just propaganda. What an insult!

Being 'right' or 'wrong' is dependant on what your country has done. My cousins in Germany refused to support Hitler and they had their children taken away, father shot and mother sent to a concentration camp where she died. THEY knew what was 'right' and what was 'wrong' - so don't give me that! If it is a person's 'point of view' that the massacre of the Chinese was right, then they are also responsible. If you sit back when you see that something is very wrong, and do nothing, then you are also responsible.

There is a huge difference, if you have a clear, logical mind, between attack and defence. You cannot compare what was done by the Nazis or by the Japanese war machine to what was done to them in the defence of not only our own freedom, but the freedom of others. What they did to the Chinese was NOT done in self defence. Those women and kids weren't exactly holding bayonets at their necks when they raped, butchered and killed them in their hundreds of thousands. Go to the net and read about the rape of Nanking, just to mention one!

If you have a powerful, destructive enemy that is attacking you, you have to use more powerful measures to overcome them. That is logic.

Try fighting off a man twice your size who has a black belt in karate with your bare fists. You'd have better luck with a chair, or a kitchen knife if that is the nearest in your reach, and that might kill him, but you have the right to defend your own life.

What are you going to do to the intruder who is about to stab your child to death? Just stand there and tell him he's listened to the wrong propaganda! More likely, you'll tell him to take YOU instead. That's what we do when we go to war against an aggressor! We put our own lives on the line to save our families, our friends, and our country. If we are not entitled to defend ourselves, then that just says that the aggressor's life is of more value than ours, and that is clearly untrue. In a war, you have to decide whose lives are more important, the lives of your own countrymen and women and the lives of those being invaded, or the lives of the invaders. You make a choice. You can't have it both ways.

Human life is valuable. Yes, it is, and you don't sit back and watch it being treated like trash by a nation that just wants to enslave everyone. It isn't about what we HAD to do to them to stop them, it's about what THEY did to require that such action be taken in the first place.

Getting back to the example of what you would do if your child was about to be murdered or tortured AND YOU HAD THE POWER TO STOP IT! Whose life then is the most valuable, eh? Think about it.

You say:

"We inflicted harm that lasted through generations.. irrepairable harm."

And you don't think they did that to millions of us? You don't think that anybody but the Japanese suffered as a result of war -which the Japanese started? You think the Japanese were the only ones? It's all OUR fault? The experiences of millions at the cruel hands of the Nazis and the Japanese was just propaganda? We should have just clucked our tongues and let them go ahead and kill, because their lives were of equal value? That is really saying their lives were of MORE value than the lives of their victims!

And we are talking about WW2 not any conflicts that have followed. What is happening in Iraq is a totally different subject. We will always have wars because there will always be aggressors and politicians and fanatical dictators who want power at the expense of everyone else.

I will respond here also to your comments about freedom in your country.

If politicians stuff everything up, that has nothing to do with the freedom that was fought for in WW2. If the Japanese and Nazis had won the war, believe me, you'd be a hell of a lot worse off. There are people in third word countries that would give anything to have what you have in the US. They'd even be grateful for the pet food - what a luxury! You have problems, but you have a paradise, in spite of all the things you named, compared to what a lot of the world's population has.

The things you describe are bad in your country, but I don't think you can blame it on WW2. Sounds more like bad government policies. That's why we have elections. If enough people want changes, they make it known through the ballot box. At least, that's what we do here.

You don't really know how much freedom you have until you lose it. I would feel ASHAMED to say I didn't have freedom when I look at what is happening in countries where a child dies of starvation or disease every 30 seconds.

Again I say, I am grateful for what I have. I am grieved by the suffering of those who are still paying a dreadful price for what their ancestors did, but it happened, and the responsibility rests with those who started it all. Not those who defended themselves and others, and tried to stop it.

Percy.

And Linda, the very fact that you can say that on a public forum, proves that you enjoy a freedom that many countries and people in this world do not.

Percy.