BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Spirituality Christianity

Might I point out here JCFreak that the Biblical God murdered more people than the Christians and the Pagans put together. He murdered innocent children, and basically sent his own son to this Earth to endure a horrible death.

And you choose to follow him... hmmmmmm. I am a Pagan and I do not for follow him, basically for the reason above.

Might I also point out that the inquisition caused more death and in just as horrible a way as the holocaust. Millions of people died accused of crimes that over zealous Christians thought were "witchcraft".

Might I also point out that it has always been a Christian President who deemed that our country should go to war.

Hitler was one man... Had that one man been stopped before he gained control, millions of people would not have died.. In order for him to gain power he had to have followers. Why would people follow a known killer? Perhaps for the same reason that people choose to follow a God that kills.

It was a Christian President who gave the order to use the nuclear bomb, killing thousands of innocent people in the process.. a bit excessive I think.

And, the planet is dying.. If you would use your intellect instead of your ego, you would be aware that scientists all over the world concur that our planet is in deep trouble. The animals are migrating, the coral reefs are bleaching, the icecaps are melting and there have been severe storms happening already.

Your way is not the only "right" way to believe. There are many different pathways to believe and all are just as right for those who follow them.

Alexandra is right.. War is never the answer.. it only begets more hatred and more war.

Love and Light..

OK. This Aussie bloke is going to challenge all the pacifists who have made comments about WW2.

I am wondering how much you know about the history of WW2?

First of all, I would like you to read this article, and then I'm going to ask you some questions.

THE CRIMES
Because of the sheer scale of suffering caused by the Japanese military during the 1930s and 1940s, it is often compared to the military of Nazi Germany during 1933�45. The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:

It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers � and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 % chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 %.

I would now like to ask you all:

How many of you lived through those war years?

How many of you were Jews, who sufferend in the Holocaust, or had close family members who did?

How many of you had your homeland invaded, or were in danger of having your homeland invaded?

How many of you experienced, or had relatives who were among those that the Japanese tortured and butchered? or that the Nazis tried to kill off in concentration camps?

How many of you experienced the London Blitz?

How many of you were at Pearl Harbour?

How many of you were in Darwin, Australia?

How many of you were in New Guinea on the Kokoda Track?

How many of you were on the death marches in Burma and the Philippines?

Were you, or one of your loved ones among those nurses who were massacred by the Japanese? Or were you on one of those hospital ships that was clearly marked, but still bombed or torpedoed?

HOW MANY OF YOU WERE EVEN BORN THEN?

How many of you honestly believe that you could have stopped it?

I would also like to ask you what we were SUPPOSED to do? Are you saying that we should have 'turned the other cheek' and allowed these aggressors to invade our countries, raped and butchered our women and children, or stood by and done nothing when we saw other countries being brought into slavery, especially when they cried out for help?

Germans who were not Nazis were put into concentration camps for as much as disagreeing with the regime, let alone being able to stop it. Children in schools were brain-washed into betraying their own parents if there was 'talk' in the home which criticized the Nazi regime. Families were threatened if people did not do as they were told.

Whatever the effects of WW1 may have been, and regardless of how the allied treatment of Germany post-war was, the fact remains that WW2 HAPPENED and if we did not fight back none of you would have the freedom to say what you are saying now. A lot of us wouldn't even be here.

It is so easy for those who were not involved at the time to make comments about how wrong it was to defend ourselves, but to me, your words are a bit like the young healthy man telling a man with no legs that he shouldn't have been in the car that was hit by a drunken driver.

I feel very sad for all the young men and women who paid with their lives, so that you could sit in a comfortable place in front of your computer, and say they shouldn't have fought back.

I have never heard such disrespect and I'm thoroughly disgusted.

Percy.

Well Percy I'm not even going to try and add to your post on WWII. Excellent. No need to add. Spirituality, you have no historical proof that " millions" died during the inquisition. So, we won't go there as you have nothing to stand on. Other than for me to say that those who committed those crimes were not Christian. Christ is the template for Christianity. The devil does many evils in Christ's name to fool the gullible such as yourself. And if the planet is dying then it is simply following the second law of thermodynamics, the law of entropy. Nothing we can do about it. The dinosaurs became extinct and the world went on so no worries, mate. As Percy might say. And God can't murder by the way. God gave your life. If He takes it it is because it belonged to Him anyway. Murder is theft of life and you cannot steal from yourself.

I agree that there is no easy answer Percy...

But I still have to say that war is not ever the answer. Wars are fought because of power, politics and greed. Hitler had to be stopped..yes.. but he should have and could have been stopped long before he gained the power that he did. Most of the other countries turned a blind eye to what was going on in Germany.. until it was to late. And, I still feel that dropping an atomic bomb on the Japanese was an excessive measure that caused needless suffering to many innocent people.

There is indeed historical proof that millions died in Europe during the inquisition JC.. all you have to do is google inquisition and you will find it ...

In order to accuse people of following the devil.. you have to prove that he exists.. which of course you cannot.

The world may be dying JC.. but in the meantime we don't have to continue to help it along.

God did not give me my life nor can he take it away.. I don't believe in him.. therefore in my opinion he is a fictional creation which has no bearing whatsoever upon my life... and of course, once again, if you want to make comments about what God says or does..you must first prove he exists.. which of course.. you cannot do either.

If you want to believe in an angry, jealous, cold hearted deity be my guest.. and if you want to believe in that half of the world is going to endure eternal suffering because they do not believe in a certain book.. go right ahead. Your choice.

You are a human being just like I am.. no better no worse.. we both came from the same source and to that source we will return.. You can be as arrogant and obnoxious as you want about your belief.. that does not nor will it ever make it fact.

Love and Light...

I apologize for the length of this, but not for the content.

First of all I want to make it clear that I HATE war. But sometimes we are put in a position where I believe we have no other honest choice but to fight back.

This might seem like a history lesson to you younger ones, but it isn't that. It is a testimonial to truth, and it's a tribute to all those Aussie Diggers who never saw another Aussie sunrise, and all those American GI's who never made it back home. They aren't here to speak for themselves and so many of their mates who did return home are now aged and infirm, so I'm going to try to speak for them.

So let's take a closer look at WW2 shall we?. (And remember that I wasn't the one to bring up WW2!)

I remember that war very clearly. I lived through it, though I was a child. Like so many, we saw relatives and friends go off, and never come back, or come back maimed, physically and mentally.

Your point Linda, about how things in Europe may have been different if Hitler had been stopped before he came to power, is a good one, but please enlighten me as to how this could have been achieved without violence?

Back in the early 1930's the major powers such as the US and Britain were not of the mind to invade another country just because they didn't like its politics.

The German people were not likely to do anything because they were in pretty bad shape after WW1 and welcomed anyone who seemed like a good bloke to get them out of trouble. By the time they realized the danger, it was too late. The Nazi party had them all by the throat.

Don't blame the Allies for failing to take action. Remember that the world was still reeling from the horrors of WW1 and NOBODY wanted to do anything that would risk another conflict.

It was sort of a situation of 'mind our own business' until Hitler started invading nearby countries. The last straw for Britain was the invasion of Poland. They did everything possible before this to avoid war, and if you check your history you'll learn about the (now pathetic) declaration of 'Peace in our time' by Neville Chamberlain, the British PM, after the Munich Conference in September 1938. Trouble was, Hitler had no intention of abiding by the treaty, just as he also broke the treaty he made with Russia.

So who's fault was that? The only way he could have been stopped was for the British (the US didn't come into WW2 until after Pearl Harbour) to send in a team to 'pop him off' - and that is exactly the type of action that set off WW1. Besides, if you kill someone like Hitler, you make a martyr out of him and it doesn't improve the situation at all.

OK. That's the European war. What about Japan?

How exactly would you have stopped the Japanese war machine that was set on the conquest of every country in Asia/Pacific?

Japan invaded the Chinese border province of Manchuria in 1931 - so it started long before WW2 broke out. Japan was already a formidable war machine. The US, Britain and Australia did their utmost to reach a peaceful solution through negotiations. These failed and on December 7th 1941 Japan launched attacks on Pearl Harbour, British Malaya and Hong Kong, Guam, Wake Island and the Philippines - without warning and without any declaration of war AND while peace talks were still in progress!

How would you suggest we could have stopped that?

How would you have stopped such a powerful force (the largest Navy in the world at that time - especially after they wiped out most of the US Pacific Fleet in their sneak attack on Pearl Harbour) without using military tactics yourself?

And remember that they had plans to invade not only Australia, but the US as well. That is why they wanted Midway. It was a step-off point to the US mainland. Fortunately this was stopped by the brilliant Admiral Chester Nimitz - commander of the US Pacific Fleet, in the Battle of Midway.

As far as the Atom Bombs are concerned, it was an extreme measure to avoid what would have been an even more extreme massacre of troops on both sides, and of Japanese civilians.

Why? Let me explain.

The decision to use the Atomic Bomb was not made lightly. Every Commander has to first consider what is best for the troops under his command. They are his primary responsibility, NOT the enemy. Can you imagine commanders in the US and Australia and Britain writing to the families of thousands of boys killed in action with words like these:

"I regret to inform you that your son, - husband.- has been killed in action, but we were trying to cut down on the death toll of innocent Japanese civilians. Your son - husband - served his country well and died bravely" .

Sure, they'd never write that, BUT IT WOULD BE TRUE!

There was a huge amount of evidence, seen from the fighting on Saipan and Okinawa (and Japanese POW's here in Australia who committed suicide) that the culture of the Japanese was not to be taken alive, and not to surrender. It was the gravest shame to them to allow themselves to be taken prisoner. On the islands I mentioned above, they fought to the last man, and civilians killed themselves and their babies. It was a shocking, wholesale slaughter!

CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF WE'D INVADED THE JAPANESE MAINLAND? (Which was the only alternative to the Atom Bomb!)

The Japanese were not afraid to die. Look at the Kamikaze pilots. 'Death before dishonour' was their belief and they looked forward to going to their Ancestors and their reward. A land invasion would have ended in a blood bath for both sides and I tremble to think of the number of deaths.

Why did Japan not surrender after the first bomb on Hiroshima? Because they preferred to die rather than to give up. It took the second bomb on Nagasaki to bring about some sense and reason into their thinking.

Sure, it was a terrible solution, but like I said, our commanders had a responsibility to OUR troops, - NOT to the Japanese who brought all this upon the world and themselves.

You might think, from your position more than 60 years later, that you could have done it better, but you weren't the ones writing to the families of the dead. You weren't the ones picking up the mutilated bodies and trying to mend them. You weren't the ones who were suffering, and you weren't the President of the United States or the Prime Ministers of Britain or Australia and you didn't, fortunately for you, have that HUGE responsibility hanging over YOUR heads, and millions of your countrymen and women expecting you to do what was best for THEM.

If you still think you could have prevented it, or stopped it, I'd really like to know how, because if you have a solution that could have stopped WW2, I reckon you should be the next President, or PM - and I'd sure vote for you Mate!

Percy.

All of that is true and I'd like to add one thing. Hitler started using a terror campaign against the minority of Germans living the the Suedetenland of Czeckoslovakia (spelling?) to drum up sympathy for them and have an excuse to "protect" them. He then started a land for peace deal. Give Germany the land and there would be peace. Sound familiar? (Israel and palestinians) Then he used the Suedentland as a staging area to invade the rest of the Czeck's country. That is what the arabs plan to do once they get a Palestinian state in the midst of Israel. It is the priciple of reversal of causation and is an old tactic. After Hitler reluctanly agreed to take the Suedetenland peacefully is when Neville Chambelain made his famous " peace in our time" quote. Those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it. Let's support Israel and not fall for the reversal of causation tactic again.

Could Hitler have been stopped.. Well, let's take a look at history, shall we?

In 1914 the dominant force in Europe was Austria. Austria's Empire included what is now known as Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia.. and also parts of Italy and Romania.

Enter Austrian Emperor heir apparent, Archduke Ferdinand. He took at ill-fated trip to Bosnia which started the first World War. Many Serbs at that time felt that Bosnia should be a part of Serbia instead of Austria. The Archduke was murdered by a Bosnian Serb who was protesting the Austrian domination..

Austria declared war on Serbia. Because of mutual defense treaties, Britain, France, Belgium, Romania, Greece, Portugal, Montenagro, Russia, and even Japan became allied with Serbia. Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, and Turkey came to the aid of Austria.

In the ensuing blood bath, 15 million soldiers and civilians were killed and at least 20 million wounded.

By 1917, both sides were devasted and seeking an armistice. This would have been a natural ending to a pointless war.

Enter America. America was not being threatened by either the Germans or the Austrians. But, nonetheless entered the war, which allowed the allies enough power to force Germany to surrender in 1918.

Once the war was over, the allies blamed Germany for the entire war. Parts of Germany were confiscated and given to Czechoslaovakia, Poland, and France. Germany was stripped of its colonies. And the alilies forced the Germans to assume the entire cost of the war.. a debt that they could never even hope to begin to repay.

Enter Hitler. During the 1920's Germany was a devastated country. Non only had it lost the resources to support itself, but it was being forced to pay outrageous reparations, along with suffering such inflation that the common people could not even afford to buy a loaf of bread.

When Hitler came along in 1933, he seemed to be the only way to end the reparations, take back the lost territories, reunite families, and restore Germany to it's previous glory. Even though the people knew that he was a cruel man, he seemed to be their only answer.

So, if the American politicians had not plunged America into a war that was not a threat to it in any way, an armistice would have occurred. The existing governments in both Russia and Germany would most likely have remained in power. Russia would not have become the Soviet Union, and Hitler would not have gained power.

If America had not entered into World War I, there most likely would not have been a World War II. There may have been smaller wars.. more localized, but not the horror of a full-fledged war. World War II was the direct result of World War I, and on a specific note.. it was the direct result of the U.S. interfering in World War I.

If the allies had not imposed unreasonable terms on Germany in 1918, the economy of Germany would not have been ripe for an opportunist such as Hitler to gain power, and Germany would have resumed it's previous cultural role in Europe.

So, in effect, who is responsible for Hitler's rise to power?
Think about it.

The whole nasty episode would have been prevented if the U.S.A. had used the foresight to mind its own business.

WOW hello History buff!!! lol Linda all I got to say is WOW!!!!

mmm I just blocked out freak I desided with every thing else to day going on... I just could not swim in $#!T any more!!! live is too short to miss with people like that son of a something!

Now.. About Japan...


The problems between Japan and the United States heated up radically when Japan seized French Indochina.. now known as Vietnam in July or 1941. President Roosevelt responded by imposing an embargo on the sale of American oil to Japan, and freezing Japan's assets in the U.S. The Brits and the Dutch government in exile followed the example. By August of 1941, Japan faced an almost total embargo on the imports it needed to continue its war on China.

The placed Japan in a difficult position. They had amassed only enough oil two last for two years without replenishment from outside sources. The U.S. agreed to remove the embargo if Japan would withdraw its troops from China.

Thus began the fight between the U.S and Japan. The emperor was angry and the emperor was the God of the Japanese people.. Defending him was their main purpose in life. So, consequently they fought with the determination and ingenuity of their ancestors.. this led to a huge amount of casualities on both sides.

However, the Allied troops had the advantage in that the Japanese people lived on an Island, and without outside resources, they would not have enough to feed their people.
It was just a matter of time before they would weaken enough for the U.S. to propose an ending to the brutal fighting.

Japan had already been defeated militarily by June 1945. There was very little left of the Imperial Navy or the Japanese air force. U.S. bombers rained down bomb after bomb, reducing Japanese cities to rubble. Oil was no longer available so weapons could not be produced. By July the transportation system had almost collapsed and most of the Japanese people were literally starving to death. During March of 1945, American bombers dropped 1700 tons of bombs on Toyko. A million residents were left homeless. In May, eleven weeks later, 520 B29 Superfortress bombers dropped 4500 tons of incendiary bombs on Toyko. These bombs totally wiped out what was left of Toyko. Two days later a second strike rained down 4000 tons of explosives. It was generally accepted at this point that the Japanese were on the verge of collapse.

But, the Russians had now decided to enter the war. This may well have influenced the decision to drop the A-bomb. There is actually quite a bit of evidence taken from various sources, including the words and writings of Roosevelt and Churchill, that points to the fact that the bombs were dropped not to stop the Japanese, but to impress the Russians with the might of America.

On August 6, 1945, without warning, an American plane dropped a nuclear bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. The explosion killed 90,000 people immediately, and injured 40,000,. many of whom died in agony from radiation sickness. Three days later, a second strick on Nagasaki killed 37,000 people and injured over 43,000. Together the two bombs killed an estimated 200,000 Japanese citizens, not to mention the generations of Japanese who still had to deal with the residue left from the atomic particles.

Apart from the moral questions involved, were the atomic bombings militarily necessary? By any rational yardstick, they were not.