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Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort, the guys that proved God's existence with a banana, the Atheist's Nightmare as they call it,
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Last edited by Darwins Monkeyboy; 05/08/07 03:12 PM.
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Sounds like Kirk Cameron is hoping to score a role on some second rate celebrity reality t.v. show to me.

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AS I'm in the UK, DO please let me know how this goes....!!

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There is a preview of the debate on www.secularearth.com. I did hear the mention of the bible. In fact I think the bible is pretty much what they offer as proof.

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Hey Alexandra,

You can find clips form the debate here

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I've only seen the first four of five minutes of it, but so far it looks like their so-called scientific proof consists of nothing more than the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, which is based on the analogy that when you find a watch (or a Coke can, as the case may be) on a beach, you know that the watch or Coke can has a designer, and hence the beach and the ocean must have a designer, too.

The problem with this argument is that it is based on analogy, and analogy is the weakest form of argumentation available. I can use analogy to "prove" all kinds of things that don't make sense. For example, I can compare man to watches, computers, engines, and any other complex machinery that has parts that work together in tandem, and on the basis of that comparison, I can deduce that man must also be a machine. But we all know that men are significantly different from watches, computers, and engines in that men are living things, while machines are not. Hence, my analogy has mislead me to group man in the same category with non-living entitities, and it was only my personal experience with men that told me that in spite of the apparent soundness of the analogy, the conclusion I drew upon it was wrong. Although men can be compared to machines, this metaphor provides us with no truly useful information about the nature of man. Although analogies can highlight some of the significant ways in which things can be similar, they are remarkably bad at pointing out the significant ways in which things differ. So contrary to what I might conclude based on the machine analogy if I had no personal experience to tell me otherwise, men are not created in factories, do not have warranties, and can't be repaired once they stop functioning.

In other words, all we have to do is push that line of reasoning out a little further to show us what nonsense it is. Unfortunately, Cameron and his buddy didn't have the brains or the logical training for this to occur to them.

Even worse, the crux of their argument is this (and I quote): "Creation is 100% scientific proof there was a Creator. You cannot have a creation without a Creator." In other words, their proof is nothing more than a weak analogy backed up by circular logic.

How lame. I mean, seriously, how many times has the teleological argument been disproven? And here they go, dragging out that same old tired argument as if they just invented it. And then they add insult to injury by throwing in some circular logic based on the definitions of "creator" and "created." Haven't these people had even a bit of training in logical fallacies? Geez.

I can't help thinking that if the public were better educated about philosophy, science, and logic, this kind of trash wouldn't have ended up being passed off as a "scientific proof" in the first place. Enough of this nonsense about teaching intelligent design in science classrooms and letting students make the decision about what's science and what's not on their own! Let's teach them some logic and reason instead!

Last edited by Ali - Atheist Editor; 05/09/07 05:20 PM.
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Here's something else amusing about their proof: At one point, he held up a copy of the Mona Lisa and claimed that we know simply by observing that the painting had a painter. But unless he was holding up the Mona Lisa itself and not a copy of it, here's what his little observation would really reveal:

1. The Creator was a machine, not a human.
2. The creation is less than 100 years old.
3. The creation was printed, not painted.
4. The creation is identical to any number of other creations.
5. The creation was executed in one day, perhaps even in one hour, with no mistakes, no changes, and only a single layer applied in a single stroke.

Very amusing, if you think about how different the conclusions we would come to if we looked at the original painting instead of the copy. And yet, he kept going on about how "the painting is absolute observable proof there was a painter." Sorry, but observation alone of a copy of the Mona Lisa tells us nothing whatsoever about who or what created the Mona Lisa...which makes me wonder: Do you think that the Earth might be a photocopy knocked out by some hack demi-deity who was copying the work of another? It's certainly worth thinking about, if we follow this guy's example. wink

Again, weak analogies like this can go wrong in so many ways, and it is very often only sensory experience that helps us realize when our analogy has gone wrong. We might just as well conclude that whatever made the universe had a lifespan of under 150 years and was born from the womb of his mother based on an argument from design. Given the lack of sensory experience between men and "God," the teleological argument for God's existence can tell us nothing conclusive about the origins of the universe.

Last edited by Ali - Atheist Editor; 05/09/07 05:52 PM.
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Quote:
Do you think that the Earth might be a photocopy knocked out by some hack demi-deity who was copying the work of another? It's certainly worth thinking about, if we follow this guy's example.


ROFLMAO!

Oh man that's funny! How am I going to get all this coffee out of my keyboard....?


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Well, you can always head over to Starbucks for a fresh cup of Java if that one got splattered all over your keyboard. And that brings us back to our "Starbucks being boycotted by thumpers" thread. Who knew we could go from bananas to coffee in a single thread?

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Snort grin


Happy Birthday Ali!


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