BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids Thought this was interesting...

I occasionally read a magazine called "B*tch" (except spelled without the asterisk- just don't want my post to get censored). Pretty good feminist stuff, usually about pop culture.
There's an interesting interview in the current issue about feminist parenthood.
What caught my attention is that there was a mention of someone (can't remember the name right now) who essentially said that hetero women should refuse to have children until men (or at least their individual partners) can be full coparents.
While I don't necessarily agree with this as a blanket policy, this leapt off the page at me- I realized that it's pretty much what I'm doing.
One of the biggest reasons I am leaning so strongly towards CF is that as the woman, I know I'd end up doing the bulk of the work. DH may mean well (and he's a very progressive guy who treats me as an equal), but that's a fact. I wouldn't be able to be a working, successful person who happens to have kids (like a lot of dads in this culture), I'd have to be a kid-centered mom who happens to have a job (like most of the moms in this culture, because of the sheer demands of motherhood). And that's not an identity I'm interested in.
While I have many other reasons for leaning towards CF (DH and I are not 100% decided yet), I might be somewhat more interested in kids if I knew the workload would be evenly distributed.
Anyone else feel this way? I feel a little bad thinking that my desire for equality is stronger than my desire to parent- but I'm trying to think of it as a weak desire for parenthood rather than a fanatical obsession with fairness.

I totally agree with you. The reason I don't have kids is more about a "weak desire for parenthood rather than a fanatical obsession with fairness." However, I'd really resent the unfairness of being expected to take on most of the responsibility of childrearing. I'm sure my DH would be very involved with a child, but it would be in the role of helper - i.e. I'd have to request his help all the time. This would make me nuts. I see this in the way we raise our dog. My DH and I share equal responsibility for walking and feeding him, but I'm the one who schedules his vet appointments, sees that he gets his medicine etc. DH will happily do these things when I ask him to, but essentially I'm the "mom".

Being a mom today in our culture seems so unappealing. You're responsible for everything even if your husband "helps". And no matter what you do people criticize you. I suppose the only way this will change is if women do as this article suggested and refuse to have kids unless their husbands do their equal share. (Unlikely) The only other thing that would make motherhood more appealing is if the U.S. adopted some of the policies of other countries, Sweden for instance, where parents receive paid leave, subsidized childcare and other services. (Totally unlikely)

This is definitely one reason that I don't want kids. My husband claims that he does 50% of the housework around here ... he washes the dishes once or twice a week. That's it. He helps out with the dogs, but only with feeding and letting them out. I do all the "work." I even do most of the yard work!

At this point I don't really care because he doesn't do it right when he attempts to, anyway (blame his mom for that - never made him do a single chore.)

BUT - the same thing would happen with a kid. And of course, if I point out to my husband that he actually does very little around here, he gets really mad, says things like "then I'll stop what I do and you'll see how much I really do!" (I don't) and sulks - so I can only imagine he would react that way if I pointed out he wasn't doing his share of the child-rearing.

I love him very much, BTW. :-)

I was driving in this morning, trying to come up with my one-liner response for why I don't want kids. And the word "unappealing" came up. Someone above just used the same language. Too funny! It's so nice that other people feel the same way.

I COMPLETELY agree. My DH2B is very modern, and we really strive to meet each other half way. But no matter how well meaning a man is, women end up doing more. They just do. And it's exhausting, neverending physical labor. Dealing with people crying, making messes, etc. Awful.

I read somewhere that some woman said her uterus was on strike. I am more than happy to strike on behalf of unfair practices toward women.

This kind of thinking is what Gloria Steinem is about. She refused to have kids, or to get married, because things were so unfair to women. (She did get married like a year ago or so, which shocked the world. People were saying, does this mean she perceives men and women to be treated equally now. Doubtful.)

Like the others, I really don't want a kid on a really basic level. But I am REALLY turned off by the amount of extra work that has to be done. People that have kids are constantly dealing with a trashed house. I don't want to come home to that at the end of the day.

One of the one-liners I considered is "I already have a full-time job." Basically, if you are a working Mom, you have two-full time jobs. Who wants that?

On a related note, there's a new book coming out this month, called "Get to Work, and Get a Life Before It's Too Late." This controversial philosopher implores women to consider only having one child so that they won't lose their footing too much in the work world. She basically talks about how brutal childrearing is, and if staying home was so wonderful, men would be clamoring to do it.

I read the first book. "Get a Life" is the sequel. It has created quite a stir, and it's really interesting material.

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I'm also put off by the strong possibility that I'd be stuck with most of the work. When husband and I talked about kids in the abstract (even knowing we weren't having any), I was clear that *he* would be the one to stay home with it/them. Even if I didn't have to do any work outside the home, I don't think I have the patience to deal with parenting 24-7. And if I did have to work outside the home, I KNOW I would lack the patience to parent effectively.

Women really do tend to end up doing most of the "house" work. And of course it's the same with raising kids. At the same time though, I agree with greenblue in that a "weak desire for parenthood" is a better reason. After all, most things in life are unfair and there is little we can do about it...

Happy, Thanks for the link. That book looks really interesting and so does her blog.I can't wait to read more when I have time.

EM, I absolutely feel that the issues you bring up affect my choices.

I'm pretty determined to have a lasting marriage. Since I come from a divorced family, statistics say I'm more likely to get divorced, but I kind of feel it's made me more determined to stick it out after seeing what my mom went through. My husband is 13 years older than me, so I can't count on him being around when I'm old as much as if he was closer to my age, but I hope to get to be one of those elderly couples who've been together for 50 years. I'd love that!

I feel like having a kid would make me resent him, even though I'd be the one pushing to have the kid. We already have "issues" around housework and imbalance in chores, and I can't see how adding to the chorelist would help that. It would only cause more problems. I was thinking about it yesterday as I did my daily rounds...getting the mail, taking out the compost, emptying the trash, washing the dishes...I can handle what's on my plate at the moment, and I still long for him to do more (or at least have a cleaning person). I started thinking about how my daily chores would skyrocket if I was a parent. My whole life would become doing chores until my kids were old enough to take some on. And then I'd have to be hassling them to do chores all the time. What a drag!

I hated chores as a kid, and don't they say think about what you loved to do as a kid when trying to choose a career? What about thinking about what you hated to do? Right now I'm okay with what I'm doing. I'm up for doing what's needed in life to clean up after and take care of myself. If there's some extra work because I'm married and don't want to nag someone all the time, okay, I can accept that too. I'm already making one sandwich, so making one more isn't that big of deal. But if it went beyond that I know I'd be frustrated and it would cause bigtime marital conflicts.

Since he wants a kid even less than me, that would be yet another issue that would make it less likely for him to do half the work. I've seen that happen with us before with other responsibilities, so I know it would work that way.

When you can see these kinds of things beforehand, but you put yourself in that position anyway, you have only yourself to blame, so the resentment would feel even more idiotic to me. It comes down to a choice almost...do you want a solid, fulfilling marriage, or children and a frustrating marriage? Maybe some people can have it all, but I think a lot don't. If I was a husband, I think I'd feel differently. Or maybe if we had another wife to share the load. Polygamy sounds good to me sometimes! Maybe 2 wives and 2 husbands?

On another topic...I was looking at that master list of CF celebrities and was thinking about Joni Mitchell. I never heard of her having kids (I love her). I googled her and read that she gave a daughter up for adoption and they found each other 32 years later. I guess that doesn't count as CF exactly, but in a way it is.

Happy, Thanks for the link. That book looks really interesting and so does her blog.I can't wait to read more when I have time.

EM, I absolutely feel that the issues you bring up affect my choices.

I'm pretty determined to have a lasting marriage. Since I come from a divorced family, statistics say I'm more likely to get divorced, but I kind of feel it's made me more determined to stick it out after seeing what my mom went through. My husband is 13 years older than me, so I can't count on him being around when I'm old as much as if he was closer to my age, but I hope to get to be one of those elderly couples who've been together for 50 years. I'd love that!

I feel like having a kid would make me resent him, even though I'd be the one pushing to have the kid. We already have "issues" around housework and imbalance in chores, and I can't see how adding to the chorelist would help that. It would only cause more problems. I was thinking about it yesterday as I did my daily rounds...getting the mail, taking out the compost, emptying the trash, washing the dishes...I can handle what's on my plate at the moment, and I still long for him to do more (or at least have a cleaning person). I started thinking about how my daily chores would skyrocket if I was a parent. My whole life would become doing chores until my kids were old enough to take some on. And then I'd have to be hassling them to do chores all the time. What a drag!

I hated chores as a kid, and don't they say think about what you loved to do as a kid when trying to choose a career? What about thinking about what you hated to do? Right now I'm okay with what I'm doing. I'm up for doing what's needed in life to clean up after and take care of myself. If there's some extra work because I'm married and don't want to nag someone all the time, okay, I can accept that too. I'm already making one sandwich, so making one more isn't that big of deal. But if it went beyond that I know I'd be frustrated and it would cause bigtime marital conflicts.

Since he wants a kid even less than me, that would be yet another issue that would make it less likely for him to do half the work. I've seen that happen with us before with other responsibilities, so I know it would work that way.

When you can see these kinds of things beforehand, but you put yourself in that position anyway, you have only yourself to blame, so the resentment would feel even more idiotic to me. It comes down to a choice almost...do you want a solid, fulfilling marriage, or children and a frustrating marriage? Maybe some people can have it all, but I think a lot don't. If I was a husband, I think I'd feel differently. Or maybe if we had another wife to share the load. Polygamy sounds good to me sometimes! Maybe 2 wives and 2 husbands?

On another topic...I was looking at that master list of CF celebrities and was thinking about Joni Mitchell. I never heard of her having kids (I love her). I googled her and read that she gave a daughter up for adoption and they found each other 32 years later. I guess that doesn't count as CF exactly, but in a way it is.

I think it's programmed into us as females that doing all the work and not complaining is what you're supposed to do. Another of those society stereotypes, and of course if you expect your SO to help he's often surprised - HIS stereotype is that the mother figure will always do things for him, so he doesn't need to do them himself. And this is especially true when it comes to kids. Raising kids is women's work, and he's a great father if he spends an hour with them before they go to bed...

Like a lot of the issues we deal with, things are changing, but oh so slowly, and people still have strong biases toward the "way things are supposed to be". Anyone trying to buck the trend is treated with suspicion.

I remember having a discussion with a male acquaintance. I earn more per annum working than he does, and I raised the question, if I married you and had kids it would make sense for me to work, because I earn more, and for you to stay at home. While I could see that he accepted the logic of that, he was really struggling with the "rightness" of it.

Frieda, you're right - one of the myths that we grow up with as "modern women" is that we can have it all. Let's be real here, you can't. Some people might appear to, but you never know what goes on in the background. And we burn ourselves out and make ourselves miserable trying to live up to the myth - if it's not working out for us, it must be our fault. Sad. if only more women had the strength to say "no".

Ln, greenblue and frieda- exactly. With housework and Feline Maintenance, my DH is willing to help, but I'm the one who keeps on top of everything and figures out what needs to be done. He'll contribute- *if asked*. With certain things it's just easier for me to just do it myself rather than nag at him and end up in exactly the fight that lngilbert described (picking your battles is am important skill for marriage IMHO). I can handle this, but with the additional workload of a kid? I'd end up resenting him and he'd have no idea why, since he would "help" when asked.