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Thanks for re-posting the definition of "selfish". I'm sure we all fall into that category at one time or another, but not 100% of the time. I do plenty of volunteer work as well as adopt shelter animals, try hard to be a good aunt, sister, recycler, green & cruelty-free consumer (even when it costs more), donate to charities, vote, etc.

I really don't see how this ONE decision (CF) makes people jump to the conclusion that we may be selfish.

That's probably true that I read too much into what you said, and as I said before, most of what you said I completely agree with. I almost didn't post my last rant about the selfish issue, because I didn't want you to feel like I was picking apart what you said, and only focusing on that one line. But in the end I decided it was worth expanding on the issue. It's an issue I'm thinking about and exploring within myself. I'm not 100% committed to having or not having children, and am looking at all the pros and cons. I'm trying to be openminded and it's interesting to me to think about society's unconscious beliefs about the childfree. It's nothing personal toward you.



Thanks for your responses to this nosy and Shannon. I still see a lot of missed connections in these statements about what is selfish/unselfish. You're characterizing this as selfish:"I want to spend all my time on myself and my career" but later on say "A decision is only selfish if it does more harm to others than good, while reaping benefits for you alone."

How is focusing on yourself and your career harming others? Personally, I think it's really important to carry my own weight in this world. It could be just as easily be looked at as harming someone if I abandoned my current career and raised children, only to end up as a burden to them because I couldn't support myself in retirement. I want to make it to retirement without being a burden on anyone, especially someone like my offspring who would feel obligated to deal with me. If I don't have kids, I have a much greater chance of accomplishing that.

I realize I'm still picking apart your posts. But I just wanted to point this out because I think people don't really examine their attitudes about the childfree and don't seem to have really thought it through all the way.

First of all, let me have you read my statement again, but this time put a stress on "all":



This sentence is shorthand for "I want to spend all my time and money on myself and my career and never lift a hand for any other person ever." And that, like it or not, is the definition of selfish. I am not saying that this is what any of you are doing. Wanting to avoid getting embroiled in a very long-term committment to another human being (a child), partly to spend more time and money on oneself, and partly to do good in other ways, is not selfish. And from the defensive comments some of you added to point out that you are not selfish just because you want to spend time on yourself on your careers and that you do do things to help others, I'm guessing that you thought I was saying that spending time on oneself and one's career is selfish period, which I was not.

You want to spend more time on yourselves than you would be able to if you had a child. Fine. You also want to make the world a better place in your own way. Fine. I get it. If that is the case, then you are not selfish. It's only if your only reason for not having children is to spend every moment of your time enriching yourself and advancing your own ends that you are selfish, just as it's only selfish if someone else's only reason for having children is to have a cute baby to play with, or to have someone who'll take care of you in your old age.

Come on, guys, give me a break here. You're reading criticism into what I'm saying when there is none. And the ironic thing is that if I had posted that same message on a parenting board, I would have been attacked by them as well for saying that wanting a baby is selfish. No, no, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if it is the ONLY reason for wanting a child, then it's selfish.

I mean, seriously, are you really disagreeing that spending all one's time on oneself and one's career to the exclusion of any altruistic activity is not selfish? And again, please remember that I'm not accusing any of you of doing this! Did you see me at any point say that all of you are selfish because you choose to spend your time on yourselves and your careers instead of having children? No, because I didn't. Nowhere did I say that people who choose to spend time on themselves and on their career but who also devote some of their time and money to other people are selfish. You're assuming that I'm attacking you personally for wanting to spend time on yourselves and on your career, when I am not. If that's all you spend time on, then yeah, that's selfish. (And notice there are people with children who do the same thing and are selfish for the same reasons). If you're working to make the world a better place, or if you use some of your time and/or money to help other people out in any way, then that's not selfish.

Geez, and you guys call parents paranoid! ;-)

Now take a deep breath (and I'm speaking as much to myself here as to you) and try to separate what I'm actually saying from what you're expecting to hear. Have I been hostile or hateful to you, or have I, on the contrary, defended your stance and applauded you for making an informed decision? Hopefully you realize it's the latter, in which case, could you stop trying to find hidden criticisms in everything I say?

Thank you.

I think for we childfree, the "selfish" term is a very sensitive one for us. We feel on the contrary, rather than being selfish, our decision not to have children frees us to be more selfless with our time, friends, relatives, pets, etc.

For example, (I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, at all, just giving an example) last night I went with my best girlfriend to visit her dog in the animal hospital. Her dog is 13 years old and had exploratory surgery last Friday, and is still in the hospital. They still don't know what's wrong. My friend is very upset and needed support. Could I have done that if I had kids? Probably not, I would have had to get my kids fed and take care of them instead of supporting my friend. Just an example.

Alicia, your posts have been very fair and do a good job of giving us the parental point of view. It's just hard for us to get used to, since we're so used to being judged by parents. Just give us some time, we'll see that you're not like those type of parents. :-)

Cindy

Thanks for clarifying, I get it

Athiest Editor I understand where you are comming from and agree with points that you have made

As a parent of children with special needs, I'm actually quite grateful for my single family and friends.

Today for instance, I have one kid at home and the other in kindergarten. It's only with the help of my single brother (who luckily is at home) and a single part time caregiver that I'm able to juggle picking up one from school and bringing the other to the doctor's.

I quite agree with the previous post about single people often being more selfless.

When it comes to helping other members in my extended family, I'm not usually available because of my kids, so the tasks fall on my single sibling. Again.

Point well taken. And actually, your example is a really good one that I expect would win over quite a few parents if they read it, especially when coupled of your explanation of how the childfree think of themselves not as selfish with their time but as freed up to be selfless with their time. That's an excellent way to word that. You should have that posted on your forum description!

Anyway, I do understand how tiring it must get to have to explain yourself on this issue. But if you would allow me to insert a little point here, I would add that if there are multiple threads in this forum dedicated to the criticism of parents, you're probably going to tend to see a lot more criticism in return than you would otherwise. I must admit that the initial comment posted in this thread got me feeling a little defensive initially, until I reminded myself (1) that this is your space, and you guys need a place to vent and rant when need be, (2) that you hear the same kind of criticisms coming from parents themselves, (3) that the person who posted it had a bit of point, and (4) that I personally know lots of childfree people, all of whom contribute to society in their own way. But just as none of you without children appreciates being branded with a negative stereotype, none of us who have children particularly likes it either.

Geez, and you guys call parents paranoid! ;-)

Now take a deep breath (and I'm speaking as much to myself here as to you) and try to separate what I'm actually saying from what you're expecting to hear. Have I been hostile or hateful to you, or have I, on the contrary, defended your stance and applauded you for making an informed decision? Hopefully you realize it's the latter, in which case, could you stop trying to find hidden criticisms in everything I say?

Thank you.

Ali,

You are having to struggle a lot here...I'm sorry about that, because I know you mean well.

First, you used a word which is so often hurled at us that it's become a cliche. You didn't mean it in a negative way, but it could be (and was) misconstrued. Go to the wikipedia article on childfree people and notice that the word "selfish" comes up very near the top. It's sort of similar to calling an atheist "unethical/immoral" (when atheists are generally some of the most ethical folks on earth...if one believes that there's no afterlife, then you'd better make the best of what you know exists --- life here, on earth). A lot of religious people seem to think that one can't be ethical/moral if one doesn't believe in God...but in fact, it's nothing more than a stereotype. Both are real buzzwords in these two respective communities, likely to get people's backs up in the blink of an eye --- but the equation of CF with "selfish" is, if anything, even more frequent.

Secondly, simply by being a parent on this forum, you're likely to get a few of us armed for bear...not because of what you say, necessarily, but because of the specter of all the past parents (on the list or off) who have said "you're selfish...you'll change your mind...you don't know what life can be until you have kids...etc.". You're not to be blamed for others' past misdeeds, but it can be difficult sometimes for us to be entirely level-headed.

The vast majority of us don't hang out on parenting boards, never have, and plan to never do so in the future. If any of us did, and decided to contribute, we'd likely get our head handed back to us on a plate. Some parents choose to hang out here; some are pretty obnoxious and condescending ("I used to be just like you, until the scales feel from my eyes and I saw the error of my ways by having children"...these folks were childless, not childfree, but it's difficult to tell them that --- or much of anything else, either). Most of the parents who contribute here occasionally are exceedingly articulate and open-minded (like you), and respectful of this board's culture.

But most of us, I'd venture to say, find it curious that parents are here. If they're here, then they should do their best to roll with the punches (which you're largely done): explain your POV, point out any flaws in logic that you see, etc., but accept that the board does have its own culture.

This board is a lot more patient with the parents who seem to hang out here regularly (both vocally and in lurk mode) than any other CF board I've visited (and I've visited plenty). I think that most of the CFs here would prefer to be in less of a fishbowl, but them's the breaks...it's an open forum, and parents seem to find us entertaining. We frequently get posts from parents who say "I've been watching this board a long time...don't want to intrude often, but I really must contribute about x topic you've been discussing...". It's a little eerie and unsettling at times --- even when the parents who contribute are uber-friendly; can't help but be.

In the context of all that (and coming from someone who isn't a member of the target audience of the board) I think your implied statement that we're "paranoid" isn't very fitting. We're often derided in real life for our choices, and come here looking for a place where, for a change, we don't have to explain ourselves. The word "selfish" comes up, and we see red --- even when the person who brought it up has good intentions. I hope you can come to understand that.

Elise

Yes, yes, I do see that. I understand exactly what you're saying about seeing red at the mere mention of the word. I react similarly to the word "immoral": a red flag goes up immediately, and I have to be very careful from that point forward to make sure I've understood what a person who uses that word is actually saying. You've actually been more than kind in pointing out that you are reacting more against the mere mention of that word than against my point of view in particular. And after all, I am the visitor here, and this is your space. The least I can do is try to be sensitive to your problems.

I think the lesson I will take from this is one we should all know already - that people, on the whole, can and do contribute regardless of their situation. I don't think any special interest group has a monopoly on charity or kindness.