BellaOnline Forums Home and Garden Fish Water Chemistry is dangerous! Worried about Betta

I'm going to try to make this as succinct as possible. I know you need enough information to be able to see what's happening though. This is the deal...

On Nov. 14th my Betta was put into a 10 gal. tank. The LPS neglected to tell me I needed a sponge for the buildup of beneficial bacteria. I got the sponge when I changed the filter on 11/21 so this actual cycle has only been going on for 6 days.

First, the products I used/use:

I let the tap water sit at least 5 hours (did use cold H2O but changed to hot H2O (as of last night) because I read that less oxygen is trapped). I treated it with AquaPlus Tap Water Conditioner, TopFin Conditioning Salt and TopFin Bacteria Supplement (the past).

As of the last water change on 11/24 and last night I changed that to: I let 2 gals of hot water sit for 5 hours then I treat it with Bowl Buddies Water Conditioning Fizz Tabs, no more salt (read Betta don't need it), and a product called Cycle put into the filter box.

Here are the readings (from test strips) and water changes (always 2 gals.) since 11/20:

11/20: 2 gal. H2O change

11/21: Amm. 0.25, NitrAte 20ppm, NitrIte 0.5, Total Hardness (TH) 250. Total Alkalinity (Buffer) 180, PH appr. 7.2-7.6
11/22: Amm. 0.25, NitrAte 20ppm, NitrIte 0.5, TH 250, Buffer 180, PH 8.0

11/24: 2 gal. H2O change

11/26: Amm. 0.25, NitrAte 20ppm, NitrIte 1.0 TH 250, Buffer 180, PH 7.2-7.6

11/26 (late night to help rise in NitrIte) 2 gal. H2O change

11/27: Amm. 0.50, NitrAte 20 NitrIte 3.0, TH 250, Buffer 180, PH 7.2-7.6

Even after last nights H2O change, both the Ammonia and NitrIte has risen to dangerous levels.

I expected this from having to start the cycle all over again but didn't expect the dangerous parameters to RISE after a H2O change so I'm starting to stress and worry.

I'm trying to not use chemicals to reduce Ammonia and NitrIte levels because I don't want to interfere with the cycling.

Wondering if I should take the Betta out and put him in a 1 1/2 gal. bowl I have until the tank finishes cycling (with frequent H2O changing and testing of course) but I'd rather not stress him by putting him in a small bowl for the next 2+ weeks or however long it takes to complete the cycle.

Btw, there are 5 live plants in this 10 gal. tank, a Java Fern, 3 grass (mondo I think) and a Echinodorus (Sword) plant (I think that's what it's called)

I'm caught off guard. Thought I was on top of all this. If you need any more information, let me know and I'll post it right away (have to leave at 3 but will be back by 5:30 (EST).

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Maybe I should do a bigger H2O change?

(((Everyone)))

I also posted this at another forum trying to get help asap.

Hi i just got a Betta Fish from my friend who had gotten it from her little cousin who won it at a fair. Tonight is only the third night ive been taking care of him. Of all the reading ive done in these 3 nights im beginning to think there is something wrong with its front fin. There are only about 3 or 4 strings of fin.. it isnt even connected and its all red. Not one part of its body is red besides this part. I stare at him for a while at a time and i notice that he doesnt move a lot. he just sinks to the bottom of the jar and stays there until i tap on the jar. OR he will float to the top of the jar and keep its mouth at the surface. He hardly eats and when he does he spits it back out and goes for more food and then spits it back out again. He does not eat the food on the surface of the water.. he only eats the food that floats past him or he goes to the bottom of the jar and scoops it with his mouth wide open. Now i do not have a lot of money in the first place but my friend really didnt want him and i offered to take care of him because i didnt want him just dying in her hands if she really didnt want to take care of him. But everyday when i wake up the water is always foggy. I clean it everyday and only feed him twice a day- once when i wake up and once an hour before i go to bed. and when i go to feed him before i go to bed there is still food in the jar like he didnt even touch it. The food my friend bought and gave to me is called BettaMin-Tropical Medley (the vibrant blend food for bettas)
The first day i brought him home he was all swimmy and looked absoulutely cheerful but now hes just lik a bump on a log.

What should i do?? is there something im doing wrong? or is he sick????? i dont know what im doing! PLEASE HELP ASAP!!!! thank you! <-manda->

((Everyone))

First of all you shouldn't use hot water. There's nothing to gain by using it. You'd only cause more problems by doing so. In fact cold water can hold more oxygen than warm water.

Second get the betta out into that 1.5 gallon tank ASAP. He'll be perfectly fine. If you want to be extra careful use bottled water to fill that bowl. It's much better than leaving him in the ammonia and nitrite ridden 10 gallon.

Anyway it seems like your 10 gallon is going through the ammonia and nitrite spike. Just check the ammonia and nitrite levels in a couple days. You don't need to check it everyday. When you take out the fish you don't need to do anymore water changes to the 10 gallon until the cycle has ended.

Good Morning Hun,

I'm posting to you right now. Will take a few minutes. I have alot to share.

Before I go do that, why don't you copy and paste your post into this forum as well... http://www.fishlore.com/Forum/betta-fish/index.0.html

I had to double post in 2 forums last night myself because of my worry for my Betta.

Go copy/paste a post there and I should be done posting to you here by then.

Don't worry. There are lots of incredibly kind and helpful people in both forums (and there are more forums should you wish their urls down the road.

You are SO kind to help this lil Betta.

Back soon

((PaPeRo)) I knew you'd reply and help. TY hun! You're so kind. The Betta went into the bowl and I did a 75% water change. Once the tank was ready, I put him back in the 10gal. (after testing parameters). It seems I have NitrAte no matter what I do (20 after conditioning and before it does into the tank, 20 straight out of the faucet too). I can work on researching that now.

He's doing great <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to try and help lilcat. Maybe look over my advice if you get a minute and be sure I'm giving lilcat good advice since I'm relatively new to Bettadom myself?

The hot water...I'll post to you about that later today and see what you think and will let you know what I was thinking/what I've read.

Namaste Dear One

Dear lilcatt,

I've only had my Betta since Oct 18th but happily share with you what I've learned and what I think is happening with your Betta. Please be sure and check for responses to your post in the other forum and here as well and get a few points of view before you do anything drastic with your Betta. The non-drastic stuff isn't a problem...like this...

Your Betta's behavior is a great indication of how he's doing. You are wise to watch him closely.

The 2 lil red fins in the front of him that you mention I'm pretty sure that they belong there and are supposed to look like that, heh. My Betta has them as well, just as you described and as you see pics of Betta's, you'll see many others have that as well. I did know the name of that part of Betta anatomy but have forgotten. Do an internet search for Betta Anatomy later, after your Betta is feeling better, and you'll see.

My Betta was sick like yours awhile ago, hanging out at the surface, barely swimming, barely moving and barely/not eating. The problem for mine was his water chemistry was BAD. Ammonia especially which comes from rotting food and fish waste in his tank. Don't leave the food he doesn't eat in his tank to rot. Use a net to get the excess food out.

The food you're feeding him is good. I'm wondering if something is wrong with his mouth (mouth fungus? but don't treat him for anything with medicine though until you are VERY sure of what's going on and post in other forums to get enough information to build or not build a case for any illness). Is the food flakes or pellets? How much exactly are you feeding him? Only 4 pellets or flakes in the morning and 4 in the evening is a good way to feed him but not right now. Feed him just 1 pellet or flake at a time and wait to see if he eats it. Give him 5 mins and if he doesn't eat it, remove it from the tank.

He may not feel like eating and that's totally ok. He will not starve, I promise. It's certainly not suggested but Betta can go almost a month without eating so don't sweat that. We don't want food rotting for sure which = ammonia.

What size tank do you have him in? I'd suggest getting some test strips asap, both the 5-in-1 and the Ammonia test strips and you'll be able to monitor the water quality/parameters and it's very important to.

How do you clean your tank?? Do NOT use tap water. The water MUST be conditioned to removed clorine and cloramines or it will kill your Betta. Be sure to get a water conditioner that removes these (and maybe heavy metals as well) and follow the directions. That is the only kind of water you ever want to add to his tank and this needs to be done immediately if you have used tap water right from the faucet. You can buy tiny bottles of water conditioner that will last quite a few water changes for under $3.00 so maybe you could count some change (as I had to do yesterday for other things, heh) and get that like right now and change his water.

The test strips are important! but you can still change his water (with conditined water, again) and should. If it's conditioned water that you have used when you clean his tank, are you using anything else at all in his tank? Do you have a filter, heater and thermometer in his tank?

A filter will help with the cloudiness unless it's caused by something we aren't aware of yet. The temperature he's in is really important especially when he isn't feeling well. He needs a temperature of 78-80 degrees, even 82 since he's not well. He will heal faster if he's kept at this temperature. Be sure the temp in his tank is not flucuating too! Watch the thermometer closely until you know it's stable. You can get a thermometer for under $2.00 at a local fish or pet store (lfs, lps).

So get a water conditioner (asap) if you don't have one and a thermometer and do a 50% water change (if you have used a water conditioner, otherwise it must all be changed). Use a short air line tube, if it's a really small tank, to siphon the water out gently and then add SLOWLY the clean, conditioned water back. If you need more help with how to do this, let me know.

If it's tap water you've been using, this is the first thing you need to do and immediately...change the water and replace it with conditioned water. If you've used tap water, you need to change ALL his water so find something else to keep him in (keep it covered BUT something with holes, he breathes air so don't make it air tight). He needs such a cover because Betta will jump out to their death. I use an upturned strainer so he can't jump out but can still breathe.

The temperature of water you add to his tank must match the temperature he's already in or it could kill him, the shock of the difference. Hold a thermometer under the faucet to get the same temp as the tank he's in, fill the container, condition it and put your Betta in and cover him, again, something that allows him to breathe at the surface. Then clean out the tank he was in, replace ALL the water with conditioned water of the same temp he's in already and return him to his home. The 50% water change is only if you used conditioned water and is to remove ammonia and nitrIte, both highly toxic to him.

I hope I haven't jumped around or repeated myself too much. I'll be watching for your comments and questions and you watch here for others to chime in and check back with the other forums too but...

Can't help saying this again..if you used tap water, DON'T wait for anything. Get a water conditioner and get him in it (at the same temp he's in right now) immediately.

Btw, this might seem like a lot of work right now and you may be feeling stressed and worried but I assure you, what you get back from this lil guy will be more than worth it. Betta's are SUCH special fish and you are highly likely to get bitten by the Betta bug. I sure did.

Keep him company (don't tap on tank if you can help it though) and talk to him. Bettas can get depressed so let him know you love him and he will let you know that he loves you too, you'll see. Your efforts to help this Betta will be soo worth it, you'll see.

Oh, the temp too...he must be 78-82 degrees so see to that today if you can but the water quality is paramount. Repeating myself...be sure to add water the same temp he's already in and then SLOWLY raise that temp if it's not warm enough.

There are methods to do this...put a light over his tank, wrap his tank in a blanket, use a heating pad under his tank (be very careful with this and monitor temperature. Be sure it rises slowly). You can use a heater too if his tank's big enough.

Keep up the good work of reaching out for help for this special lil guy like you did by posting. You're going to make an awesome mom or dad hun.

((((you))))

((PaPeRo))

I read somewhere about bubbles covering a fish's/Betta's body and the inside of the tank glass. I read that that would be harmful to the Betta (on his body like that) and could even kill him. The use of hot water, brought to room temp, was suggested to avoid this bubbling, that it held less oxygen.

Someone shared with me a great way to do the water thing so that's how I'm doing it now....

Using a thermometer held under the faucet, I adjust the temp to match that of the water temp in the tank and then condition.

I like not having to wait for the water to get room temp but even though I like this new way, there were bubbles still on the inside of the tank when there weren't when I used just cold water and let that come to room temp (which was the same temp of the water in the tank because it sat right next to the tank in the same room. (heater isn't on/needed in the tank. It stays a constant 80 w/out it).

Betta don't need oxygen in the water I thought (at least not super oxygenated water) so it seemed to make sense to not want to hold more oxygen in the water.

I guess I'm still confused about why it's good to have oxygen in the water for a Betta when you don't even need a bubbler (even though I have one but it's rarely on).

It's ok to tell me I'm analyzing this to death and to get a life, lol

Namaste,
Karyn

Sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. There are some wannabe biologists out there that use psuedo science to try and apply it to different scenarios that don't have any realworld relevence. I think what you're referring to is tiny little bubbles that can enter a fish's bloodstream and harm them. This is true but the bubbles you see on the fish aren't the kind that's being talked about. The tiny bubbles that you should be concerned are from high power filters that create tiny bubbles in the water.

I think you're over analyzing things.

Anyway it's good to have oxygen in the water for Bettas due to the fact Bettas get O2 from the water AND air. If there is little O2 in the water the betta would have to surface a lot more often. Of course if it comes free with the cold water then why even be concerned about whether or not you need the higher O2?

Again hot water from the faucet is not good since it will have more toxic heavy metals in it from pipes fittings etc. Warm water is just hot water mixed with cold water so there's really no difference since the hot water has to travel through the pipes from the water heater to the faucet.

Finally the reason why you don't need the bubbler is due to the fact you have surface agitation from the filter.

TY for putting up with me hun <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I will just let the whole bubble thing...bubble away.

I'd listen to you guys who have Betta inevitably anyway.

((PaPeRo))

Hey don't worry about it. It's good that you do research and bring these topics to discuss so we can determine if it's a valid concern or not. It is true that if you put cold water that is saturated with gases into a tank that has warm water it will form small bubbles that may harm the fish, however, if you let the water sit like you're supposed to, until it reaches the same temperature as your tank water it will never be a problem. You do not need/want to use hot/warm water.

Remember that when doing LARGE water changes you shouldn't pour cold water into a warm tank anyway because the fast temperature drop will cause stress to the fish. That's why it's important to match the temperatures of the replacement water with that of the tank water. Some people use a heater and some just let it sit beforehand. Of course if you're doing routine small water changes the temperature of the small amount of replacement water wouldn't be an issue. Also if you live in a cold climate and have a heated tank, no amount of sitting will get the water as warm as the tank unless your room temperature is at least as warm as the tank.