BellaOnline Forums Relationships Married No Kids Things you don't have the heart to say...

Well, this was an interesting thread until it was totally hijacked. *sigh* Thanks for ruining it. Go have your [censored] party somewhere else, k?

I apologize again for this thread going of topic. However, Fire and Ice, I am not apologizing to you. I dont expect everyone to agree with my opinions, nor should you expect everyone to agree with yours. My point was that just because I dont have kids or plan on having kids, does not mean that I dont support maternity/paternity leave or certain social program. My opinions on these matters have to do wiht my polotics, liberal democrat, not my status of being child free. Also you may not have called me ignorant but your post was certiainly disrepectful and encompassed chidish name calling. I should not have put elite and childfree together, I should have merely said elite, my point was that as someone who deals with poverty fist hand every day I see its effects and it is distressing when peoople dont really understand the impact of poverty and what it can do. I often think people think in terms of dollars and not people which is distressing. Also please do not be disrespectful enough to imply that I a native new yorker who lived in manhattan at hte time of 9/11 and lost people on that terrible day do not actually understand the impact, I assure you I do. Again I do not expect you to agree with me, just because we are both childfree we should not assume we will have the same political opinions. Nor do my beliefs make me a goody two shoes. I can also assure you that I would be able to retain my job as a teacher without your tax dollars, Im really not quite that paranoid. If you are going to say things in disrespectful language and make assumptions (women at mcdonalds who couldnt keep her legs closed) you should expect some people will disagree with you. I certainly expect people do disagree with my beleifs, its the nature of a free society. What I object to is being called a pompassed bratt, and other offensive language simply becuase I challenged your opinions. As for as I know I have as much right to my opinion as you do yours. I certainly wont post on this topic again and to bad it got out of control.

A pompassed brat is not offensive language sweetheart. And I love how you disregarded all my objective inquiries. You are the one who always throws little snide political remarks here and there, and who has assumed we all would have the same beliefs? You're just hurt because someone finally called you out. My post wasn't disrespectful, it was just truthful. And I would be more then happy to highlight all the times you've made childish remarks, so don't hold yourself in such high moral fortitude.

Original posts go off topic all the time, this one just happens to have rubbed you the wrong way. My bluntness is a necessary evil. Someone's got to have the cohones to speak up.

And no, you STILL don't have a clue about ground zero. You weren't there. Unless you were there, losing someone only scratches the surface, that is how horrible it was. Don't even try to compare. I lost 6 co-workers, 4 of whom had CHILDREN.

In fact, I would LOVE to see MORE of my hard-earned tax dollars go towards the military and National Defense. You brought it up - you can sure dish it out but you can't take it. Typical of you. I didn't expect much else.

Fire

I won't get involved in the disagreement since it has nothing to do with me (and this is my first post here), but I would like to reply to the question about why anyone would oppose a year of paid maternity leave.

I don't oppose it on general principal, but I do believe it's discriminatory against people who choose not to have children. If that kind of policy exists, then it needs to exist for anyone with a "life situation," such as a sick parent or an ailing kitten.

That said, with the existence of birth control and the legality of abortion, there's no reason why people who can't afford babies should have them. Part of the reason I chose not to have children is because I can't afford them. When I was married, my husband and I looked at our finances (we both made about $60K combined before taxes, and we live in New York City), and we realized our lives would be one stressful financial situation after another, day after day of scrimping just to get by, even if we both continued to work. We ultimately decided for several reasons not to have kids, but one of the big reasons was because it would have been financially irresponsible to do so. Too many people never look past the squee of "Oooooh, I want a sweet little baby and a family" to the cold, hard practicalities of it.

Also, there is no conclusive evidence that children raised by SAHMs are any better off than children raised by working parents, long-term. I've read a study that claims that children raised by SAHMs develop more rapidly than kids in day care (and some studies that claim the opposite), but even that study acknowledged that the quality of the care may be more to blame than the mere fact of it being day care. Working mothers often feel guilty about leaving their babies to work, but that's not the same as saying there's an actual harmful consequence. Of all the kids I know, the ones in day care seem to be progressing at about the same rate as the ones with an at-home parent, and they seem just as happy.

Lastly, a year's paid maternity leave costs money. That money has to come from somewhere. If the company is forced to pay for it, it may result in lower wages or fewer benefits for everyone else. This may sound harsh, but I don't want to lose my dental because the woman next to me is feeling guilty about leaving her child in day care.

One option is for people to create a plan (such as a 401k), in which money would be desposited every paycheck. In this way, parents could fund their own time off. If both parents contributed for a couple of years, with some sacrifice they could probably pull it off.

Wow...I must admit to being quite surprised when I came back after a few days and saw all the activity here! Goodness, we are a lively bunch!

Well, as much as I would like to address all the different responses, that would result in a very lengthy email, so I'll just throw in my two cents in one or two areas...

While I haven't always felt this way, I now think that a year's worth of paid maternity leave is not a good idea. As others have pointed out, who's going to pay for it? Either businesses or taxpayers. If businesses pay for it, then that results in lower wages/less benefits for everyone. And then people would complain about that. As for taxpayers...well, I agree with the folks who've said that we already pay enough taxes for schools and a myriad of other social programs. I'm OK with paying school taxes because I don't want our country run by a bunch of uneducated idiots (oh wait...that's already happened <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). I also don't mind funding social services up to a point. But provide ADDITIONAL funding for people who decide to go down a certain path and don't figure out how to pay for it? I don't think so.

I like Tuch's idea of funding time off expenses...maybe like an FSA account.

As for the debate between fireandice and tubby3pug...there is a message function that you two could use to continue your discussion off-line, since at this point it may not be of interest to other people on the thread...

Thanks for the tip Joz, but we'll use which ever communicative vehicle is convenient.

Fire

Convenient for who, m'dear? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Awww, you know I'm only joking and that I love you all. <img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" />

I did actually have something I thought of recently that I don't have the heart to say. Oftentimes I don't have the heart to say to people "I don't want to continue the family line of mental illness" when they ask me why I'm not having kids.

Seriously...when you, your mom, and your sister feel suicidal on and off for years of your life, and you think the world is pretty awful as it is, you really don't feel like bringing another person in to experience that misery.

I often wish I'd never been born, and so do many of my family members. I follow the pattern and assume that any children of mine would also wish they had never been born. So I am granting their wish...the misery ends with me. The tradition will not be continued.

I like to refer to it as genetic suicide. Why commit actual suicide when you owe the world so much? (Everyone needs help, and I think we owe each other that help.) Instead, kill the gene that makes you so miserable. Refuse to reproduce, thwarting nature, and refuse to provide a depressed, miserable example of human behavior to the next generation, thwarting "nurture", and there you have it -- a few less depressed and mentally ill people in the world. Ta da!

But yeah, I hardly ever have the heart to tell people that one. Why corrupt their innocent inquiries with my bleak outlook? Better to just shrug and laugh it off. What they don't know can't hurt them.

I am not going to continue with my debate of fire and ice, I think its safe to say we disagree and thats it. Id rather just say people have different opinions, and admit I get my back up over social issues. I guess Im more socially liberal then most thats just me, but I will defend my beliefs, and I expect others to defend their beliefs. I dont support a years paid marternity leave, I said I support maternity leave, maybe 6 months not a year. I would prefer a situation like offered at my job, teacher, you can hold on to a position, not the orginal one necessarily but one in the system, for up to five years, but you only get paid for 6 months. People use this option to care for kids and sick relatives or family members, so it can benefit everyone, like all good policies. Such policies are called flex time, I think, and if they dont only serve parents I dont see how they are discrimatory. What I do support is low cost or free daycare. I think the cost of daycare keeps some people from working, if your whole pay check goes to daycare what do you do? I think free/low cost would keep more parents working and contributing. I did say is if I had kids I would want to stay home, and that is just me I would not expect to be supported by society.

That was actually one of our considerations, too, xantres. Depression and chemical dependencies run in DH's family - we're talking severe dependencies with alcohol (mostly) whereby several members (including DH's dad) have managed to drink themselves to death. DH lost two uncles (dad's brothers) to suicide, and DH's younger brother is now disabled from a failed suicide attempt at 17. I generally don't go into that aspect in polite conversation, but with those who know us better and are aware of some of the trials we've been through with his family, I don't sugar coat it.

Xan: Golly gee, thanks for the love hon, right back 'atcha :kiss

Excellent post by the way, love the [potential] response. Perhaps I'll use it in a appropriate future situation. With proper credit given, of course.

Fire