BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality Atheist Can Atheism REALLY be defended?

GLY, just a thought.

Are you perhaps trying to say that the thing within us which makes us aware of right and wrong is the Divine spark within us all?

"As for the earlier comparisons to child sex, who deems those to be wrong?"

"I" deem it to be wrong, because I had my life destroyed by it. I don't need any God to tell me it was wrong. My heart, mind and body bear witness to it as a fact. Any victim of child sexual abuse will say the same, whether they believe in God or not.

Speaking of evolution. It is a fact that the skeletal structure of whales and other cetaceans show that they were once land dwelling mammals who later took to the ocean and evolved into what they are today.

For anyone who might question the scientific evidence that Whales were once land dwelling mammals, please read this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

A very interesting read. :-)
I have to read it tomorrow when its not so late.

in the first few lines I noticed it said

In most cases that is true. And the saying also describes an evolutionist that wont accept creationism.
Ill have a good read through it.

I have to thank you because no one has tried to give any kind of scientific evidence after 13 pages of utter rubbish arguement.
The only thing I got from it was 'I dont care' and how there may be another explanation other than creationism and evolution <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> LOL

Thanks again!

Patience you said because of the things that has happened to you and other kids, child abuse is wrong. I already have said that I am really really sorry about what has happended to you and ya I do think it is wrong. But how about those who do abuse childs and do rape people? They difinitely don't agree with you because if they did then they wouldn't have done such deeds in the first place. Then who is right and who is wrong? Without an absolute moral lawgiver there can't be these objective moral laws. Sure these could be subjectively wrong but we know that that is not the case. But objective moral laws do exist do. As you have said child abuse is objectively wrong so is rape and other things but atheistism doesn't give us any bases for these absolutes. I wrote alot more last time. I'll just paste it below.

Here is my arguement once again.
I am saying Objective Moral Laws can't exist without a Moral Lawgiver. By Objective Moral Laws I mean moral values that are valid and binding whether someone believes in it or not. For example Rape is objectively wrong. It doesn't matter who thinks what. It still would be wrong even if the "Church Priest" or Atheist Leader or whoever said it was right. It would always be wrong. Same with child abuse. The Holocaust was objectively wrong and it doesn't matter if the Nazi's would have won the World War 2, It still would have been wrong.
Now if God didn't exist these moral laws wouldn't be objective in this way. Now the question is not "Must we believe in God to live a moral live?" I am not saying we must. The question is also not "Can we know the Moral laws without believeing in God?" I think we can. I am not saying that "We can't have a sufficient system of ethics without refrence to God." So long as we assume that human beings have objective moral value, atheist could probably draft a moral code that theist with agree with.

But if human beings are just accidantal by-product of nature that has just evolved and I don't see any reason that in obsence of God, they have any kind of special values. They are just a speck of dust in a huge mindless universe and are going to perish indiviually or collectivally in a ralatively short time. On the atheistic view, some actions, say rape, may not be socially advantagous, so in the course of human development has become tabu; but that doesn't obsolutely nothing to prove that rape is really wrong. So without God there is no obsolute right and wrong. But we do know that Objective moral values exist therefore there has to be an unchangeable Moral Lawgiver. Otherwise Moral laws become subjective or what a person chooses or thinks what is right and wrong. But we know that a person can't make a moral law because then another person can't call actions of other people wrong. (I will add thise section because someone talked about societies making moral laws. But if societies made laws then one soceity couldn't call actions of anothor socity wrong. Therefore we couldn't say Nazis were wrong.)
So basically my arguement is as the following
If God doesn't exist, objective moral values don't exist.
Objective moral values does exist.
Therefore God exist.

Just because a person who rapes someone does the crime it does not mean they dont know its wrong. You are NOT making sense and you are going over the same [censored] again.

GET SOME NEW MATERIAL!!!!!!

God Loves You,

You said:



Let me give it a try to explain it to you, maybe I can explain a little better. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Empathy.

Humans have evolved empathy. Your answer in short and simple terms is that (most) humans are capable of empathy.



I really don't want to go to deep into this one (I leave it for someone else:) )

But yes Life ends in death. Death is a part of life. All things will die. You will die. I will die. My son will die.

Moving on,



Hmm, you must have been in a hurry, I am going to assume that you meant "but that does absolutely nothing to prove that rape is really wrong."

This is back to the development of Empathy (and some people lack of) There is nothing taboo about morals and if you look at very very recent history Women were viewed as sex objects and are raped regularly because it was the husbands bed right. Yes, Christian men viewed it as morally acceptable to rape their own wives because the women belonged to them through holy matrimony.

I�m sure if when you come back and reply because you are feeling insulted many women on this forum will throw historical facts your way. If on the very off chance they don�t I�ll happily point to them, but for the sake of space I won�t quote and scan and link out the wazzoo here&#61514;




I think I have just given an explanation that should explain it. Humans evolved empathy. I am sure if you look through the forum you will find that several forum members have given examples of animals showing empathy.

I stopped at empathy to keep my explanation short and easy to understand. Enjoy reading.

GLY you have said:

"They difinitely don't agree with you because if they did then they wouldn't have done such deeds in the first place."

This is very incorrect. You, like most people, dont know a lot about child sexual abuse.

Most of the perpetrators do know it is wrong, - but they continue to offend because it is an 'urge' that they don't, or can't control. Even those who genuinely try to change, through therapy, still continue to be abusers. So it is quite ridiculous to say that if they believed it was wrong they wouldn't do it! That just isn't the way it works.

Also if they honestly believed it to be right, then why threaten their victims with death, and other terrifying things if they dared to tell anyone? This is proof that they know what they are doing is wrong and they want to be able to continue doing it and not get caught.

If they believe it to be right and normal, then why all the sworn secrecy involved in it?

Saying that they don't ;believe it is wrong is just a ploy to get the sympathy of the courts when they DO get caught! Be real!!!

It has been shown that all species carry in the embrionic stage of development the vestiges of their past evolution (as indicated in the article on Whales) This can also be found in the human embrio, which has a tail. This 'tail' eventually become that part of the spine which we call the COCCYX or tail bone.