BellaOnline Forums Travel and Culture Polish Culture Russia celebrates November 4 - polonophobia

Hmm, it is true.
It is also true that Polish history has seen many heroic acts by Poles who fought for their freedom from Russia.

However, the history of Poland has also seen a lot of Polish treachery, servilism, willingful subservience. It is true that thousands, millions of Poles decided to cooperate with Russians, either tsarist or communist, because they thought it would be either good for Poland or just profitable for themselves.

I wouldn`t like anybody to accuse Poles of helping Russians and contributing to the oppression of their country. And don` t tell me they were renegade Poles or half-Russians or something. They were all Poles, starting from Targowica 1795 and ending with martial law 1981.

So, to be fair, I would abstain from critisicing those Russians who cooperated with their regimes and took part in dirty deeds.

I think there's a contradiction here. You name it "Polish treachery" and then "don` t tell me they were renegade Poles". I don't get your point, Of course they were renegade Poles, at least those who, using your words, "thought it would be profitable for themselves". Those who honestly thought that "servilism, willingful subservience" will be really good for Poland were extremely naive and, as I see it, not so numerous.






What about those Russians who opposed the regime, opposed parasitic imperialism, opposed injustice? If we abstain from critising those who did bad, we cannot praise those who did good. We'd be coming close to total relativism, wouldn't we? This same rule is naturally valid for any given group of people, not just Russians.

But all that is in fact marginal to our main thread. My point is that one cannot precisely differentiate a nation from the state, at least as far the feelings are concerned. I can say generally I do like parts of Russian culture very much, feel very well in the companion of some Russians (in fact they are sometimes very much similar to Poles) but I cannot say 'I like Russians' and cannot say 'I dislike Russians". That is valid, naturally, for every other group of people. Do you get my point or did I complicate that too much? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oops, I am sorry, When I say "renegade Pole," I mean that the person ceases to be a Pole, becomes sort of a national outcast without homeland. I ntended to say that all Poles who cooperated with Russians were true Poles.




I don` tagree. There is a book called "Poles in Russian service" I suppose, I haven`t read it, only the review which said many Poles supported the tsarist regime. Later the same with communist one.
Adam, don`t you remember "akademie" in your primary school? Akademie to commemorate Bolshevik Revolution? 1 May? Lenin`s birthday? PKWN? etc etc Who organised them? Our teachers. Who were they? Normal people who decided to cooperate for various reasons.
These were teachers in schools. What about others in factories, offices army, police, everywhere. There were millions of people like that.



I can say I like Russians. That is why I always get mad and emotional at stupid dirty deeds of theirs.



It`s OK.

So what gruop they were in? Those who thought it would be good for Poland or those just profitable for themselves?

I think we are talking about somewhat different matters. Nonetheless I think the teacher who took part in organizing such 'akademia' HAD to do it in order to keep his job. THere were few bravest of the barve who disn't accept that and aactually got fired. However the teacher who did organize one could do it with 'willingful subservience' - and that is the traitor, or who could do it in a minimal way or even in an intelligent way, which demonstrated all taht shoul have been demonstrated. Of course both teachers were and are Polish as long they state so. ANd of course the one who did bad deeds should be forgiven if asks for forgiveness accepting his wrong deeds.
That's how I, more or less, see it. What do you think?

Thanks, Jaga - I did receive your postcard a while ago. Only I've been too sick recently to reply on time.

The November 4th holiday turned out to be SO unpopular in Russia! Both on the 4th and the 7th, streets, squares, everywhere was clogged with people demanding a return to the November 7th holiday. In Moscow, the mayor even staged the first-ever post-Soviet military parade on Red Square in honor of the October Revolution!

Eric,

is it not a bit of a contradiction since it seems that Russians would like to celebrate - all - teir tzars and revolution. But this may be a simple nostalgic longing for the times of glory and imperial power <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Why are you sick, what is wrong with you Eric?

I had a bad flu for a couple of weeks, but I'm better now. Actually, I'm glad I had it early, because it means I can go the rest of the flu season without worrying about it again. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />