Is there anyone else out there that feels like the "non-moms" look down on us?

I am an extremely intelligent woman, and it never fails that if I get into a conversation with a woman that doesn't have children, she seems to get this "superiority complex".

Do people honestly think that having babies reduces our intelligence?

(Sorry, just came off a rant somewhere else on this board, and would like a little friendly commiseration!)<img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hey, Michelle,

I have read some of those posts, too and I came quickly to the conclusion that many of those posters cannot accept and stand by their own decision without degrading others who made different decisions.

I certainly would never encourage anyone to have children - or to get married or buy the same car I drive, nor would I berate them for choosing otherwise.

I planned both my kids, raised them into educated, productive adults and to have them referred to as "f***trophys" is not just insulting, it's misspelled. And, what the hell is a "parunt"?

I am not a "breeder", I am a mother to two fabulous children. I also earned a college degree at the age of 20, have had a very successful career, and now run my own business.

I would not exclude someone who is "childfree" based on that factor anymore than I would exclude someone based on their race or religion or the fact that they like turnip greens. But obviously, it's okay for them to choose to only talk to each other. That way, they will all think alike and it becomes a big "rah-rah" fest for condemning those who think or choose differently.

They are bigots of a different nature. And, like all bigots, their prejudice is based on some internal inferiority or some fear that they might not be right. And, like all bigots, they have to degrade and riducle the object of their bigotry in order to quiet their own inner demons.

I hope they don't have children--there are enough bigots in the world already, and children do learn what they live with.

I am part of the CF board. But I want to say sorry for the way a lot of them act. I dont have children but do not look down on mothers. I hate the word "Breeders" as if Parents were Dogs. I think their comments only make them look like morons.

There are maybe 2 or 3 girls in that board that have the same views as me. But the rest are delusional.

I wouldnt let the comments of those rambling idiots get to you. And I am here to say that there are some people who are Child-Free that are not like that at all.

Thank you Deloncrey. I was pretty upset last night when I wrote this post. When I came back on today I saw several people had taken up issue w/ "Dr. Keith".

But it is not just on this board, I find it out in "real life", too. Especially when I say the words "stay at hime mom". You'd think my IQ just dropped 100 points! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It is kind of funny, many if you know I suffer from severe depression, my therapist actually said my staying at home was adding to my depression, that I needed to get out & get a job that would stimulate me. She said I was too intelligent, that it was bad for me to stay at home! And here I was thinking I was doing the best thing. Oh well...

Thank you both for letting me rant! <img src="/images/graemlins/computer.gif" alt="" />

Michelle, I find that many people are unable to look outside their own worldview, usually because they feel threatened. Especially moms -- it's always a difficult choice to "work outside the home" or be a "stay-at-home mom". I did both and the pros and cons are there for both choices. I do believe it's a contributing factor in the work-at-home trend, which even men are doing now!

As to your depression being worse because you don't work--well, many people are depressed at work! So, working at home is maybe your answer. You are intelligent and have a lot to offer, so you would have many options. And, you could still be available for your kids.

From personal experience, I do know that meaninful activity does help with depression, but it's hard to get started when you are depressed!

I'm sure you have some personal dream for yourself, and I'd guess it might be in music, so start very small with that. Like just 30 minutes a day. For example, you could use if to supplement your therapy and keep track of your results and write a book about it and make a gillion dollars! LOL--seriously, music is great therapy! And, when you tell others that you are working on ground-breaking research in musical therapy for depressive disorders, well, that's quite lofty and those raised eyebrows will be awed, not condescending.

I'm only being a little tongue-in-cheek here--I do believe you can use any interest or dream you have to light your inner fire. And, I believe that having the opportunity to work at home on your dreams while raising your children is lucky and a double blessing.

Hey Michelle, I agree with a lot of what Deborah said. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There are probably just as many depressed working women as there are stay at home women. I was a Managing Editor for a publishing company producing 3 mags a month. It was the coolest job EVER! I positively loved it. But guess what, I was also depressed. I am just not meant to be a working mom. Yep, that nice salary was sweet, but not worth missing my kids like I did and missing out on their lives.

It's also pretty easy to get depressed at home too. I get really frustrated with how nasty and messy my house gets. I don't get out socialize because I'm too doggone busy with my kids. Money is always an issue. Oh, and I hate the cold weather so it's not unusual for me to stay in for a week or two at a time during the winter. It's also a constant battle to feel like I'm a contributing member of the world. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe a job would be good for you and maybe it wouldn't. Working from home would be an excellent option as long as you have the discipline for it.

As for mother's who don't have kids being rude, try not to let it bother you. I have 4 kids - trophy's? Not. People like that just make me roll my eyes! Talk about the intelligence level dropping! I have no respect for someone like that and won't give them the time or the emotional energy it takes to really be miffed. The principal calling, a broken window, someone leaving the house without telling anyone where they're going, wondering where the heck my kid is 20 minutes after curfew, those are things to devote my energy to. Not some complete idiot who doesn't have a clue. These are the kinds of people who you have to pray never have kids because they are just too selfish to be any kind of compassionate.

i feel your pain on this one...i read the post you are reffering to and it was flat out offensive! but even if you try to be nice and compliment them (my big mistake..sigh) you still get crapped on, its a shame you cant even be nice to someone, or a group of people with out them attacking you... im sorry this jerk hurt your feelings..he was out of line and had alot of you-know-whats to say such blatently offensive things.

This debate has been raging far too long, between women.

In this enlightened age, are we yet scrutinizing womens' personal choices? Each and every woman has the right to chose the lifestyle that best suits her needs. If a woman chooses to dedicate herself to the upbringing of her children, why denigrate her choice? If a woman chooses to pursue a career, as well as raise a family, why not stand behind her, in her decision?

I've known women who have chosen both paths, in life. Not one of the 'stay at home' mothers I've known has ever suffered from a feeling of inferiority. These women have grown into their maturity with an eye toward continuing education, and personal growth. They may stand shoulder to shoulder with their working-Mom counterparts, as equals, in bottom-line, personal development.

Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.~Eleanor Roosevelt~

www.intouchwithjeannine.com

Oh my gosh! where were you when I needed you? I was in a CF (Do you think giving birth is gross?) forum and they attack me like animals I gave my 2 cents but it just got blown out of content. But no I think you moms are awesome and really smart.

Sorry I've taken so long to reply! You're dead on about me wanting a career in music. Eventually I want to get back to college and finish my degree and either teach HS choir or do seminary and music ministry - but I feel strongly pulled towards children. I'm in the middle of writing a song (kinda stuck), I've written the script for one children's musical which I've sent off, and I'm working on a couple of articles about depression as a Christian.

Unfortunately those don't pay the immediate bills. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But, anyway, I was also going to say; when I first posted this thread AND when I responded to Dr. Keith I was (am) recovering from a hysterectomy and am taking pain meds.
Even though I already knew I could not half any more children, it was like a real "emptiness" to know that now not only "should" I not have any more kids (or face kidney failure), but there's nothing in my body that's even capable of having kids. I feel sort of diminished in a way. My husband always teases that our cats are technically "its" because they've been spayed, so now I feel like an "it". (Trust me, he's done backflips trying to explain the difference between the two to me) <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So I was already feeling down, then I took pain meds, and like I said on another thread somewhere; my brain's "governor" was down (that little part that goes "maybe you shouldn't say that...") And I lambasted a perfect stranger (although part of me still thinks he deserved some of it!)

SO anyway, hopefully I'm a little more sane now <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue2.gif" alt="" /> and I'll try not to post anything after I've taken Demerol anymore! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you posted a reply to Dr. Keith, Michelle. But, I won't get started on him.

Anyway, I hope you get over the "diminished" feeling. I have heard that from other women after hysterectomies, and I've also seen women who shout for joy, so I'm sure it's a personal thing. I don't believe having a uterus is what makes you a woman, though, and I hope your feeling is just that "after-surgery/pain med" temporary thing, or just a period of mourning.

I know future stuff won't pay immediate bills, either, so I'll be praying that you find an intermediate solution that will bring in some cash!

Can you teach kids from your home? Even adults--piano, voice or other music lessons might fit the bill temporarily. Just a thought.

Hey Michelle, we need to talk! I just had a full hysterectomy this past summer. I'm a mom of 4 and I'm a Christian, but after all is said and done, I'm thrilled that I had my surgery. I was sick for a solid year with the last 6 mo being REALLY bad. It sounds like your surgery was necessary and not elective.

I understand what you're going through. You are definitely not an "it". <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Like Deborah said, not being able to have more children doesn't make you less of a woman. But the loss of those organs and that ability are something that some women truly grieve over. Plus, you're body is going through major changes and those changes will affect a lot!

It's important that you talk to your Dr about the way you're feeling. If you were depressed before the surgery, your depression could go up and down, or the focus of the depression could shift. Believe me, those hormones play a much bigger role in your emotional health than we realize. I'd be happy to talk more about this with you. Maybe we could start another thread so we don't take over this conversation, if you want. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> No pressure, just an offer.

I found your post to be very surprising and sad. I have no children and i feel like when i tell moms that, they look down on me as "that poor baren woman." Once I was even called an abomination by a Christian woman. I used to feel excluded and not good enough. Then I made a difficult decision to be happy with the life I have. It took a lot of work, but once I got truly comfortable in my own skin then other people couldn't put me down as easily. I agree with the Eleanor Rosevelt quote.

Welcome R.E.!
Not to confuse issues, but I am musicalmom, too. I was trying to keep 2 separate names going, but it got too confusing! I have lots of friends that are CF. Some by choice, some because of inability. I AM a Christian, and I feel that; just as God has chosen some people to remain single and not marry, He has chosen some people to remain CF and not raise families. (Lets face it, a missionary's life is much easier and safer when not burdened with children).

And there are some VERY good people here on this CF forum, like I said I was just in a touchy place that particular day (heck, month!) and Dr. Keith's words hit many nerves.

HI there

I am a childfree married woman of 30 and I just want to say I have the upmost respect for all of you that "are decent parents" and it really is the "hardest job in the world"
and for those of you who do it well good on you as I cearinally do not look down on any of you.......

On the other hand as a childfree woman I often get nasty coments from people with children and feel that I am not repected just because I dont want childern so it works the other way aswell....

[color:"orange"]Same here, exept for the fact that I'm only 23 1/2. [/color]

I recently went to a small reunion of friends from college. At the table of 9 I was the only woman with children. I have to admit that the reactions to my giving up my career to "stay home" were varied. Some were so supportive and excited for me while others seemed to look down their nose a bit. Sad.

This is my career now. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's a choice--not a role I am playing because I have to. I haven't chosen to be a full-time mom because it's my "place" in the world. I've chosen to be a full-time mom because I want to be the one to raise my kids. Life is short and I'm not going to miss a thing.

Sometimes I get the sense that a career woman is wondering if I am smart enough to have a career. But, I can't truely say for sure if that is accurate or if I am making unfair assumptions. (Maybe she's just jealous.) I know that when I shift the conversation to a place of common ground, showing that we could discuss more than raising kids, I get along just fine with most everyone. Maybe it's the shift from "all about me" mentality that population finds difficult.

I dont think it would be jealousy....Anybody can go out and get themselves knocked up - its not rocket science and even if she could not she could adopt <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to be vague. I don't mean jealous of my kids. I mean jealous of my lifestyle. Not everyone wants to put on a rat suit and run in a race. Many friends of mine who wouldn't dare give up their careers, hate the pace, and numbing routine of their lives.

NOt likeley that she would be jealous of your lifestyle either or else she would choose that lifestyle herself..


As for hating the numbing routine of their lives the same could be said for motherhood. I am career orientated and Personally I could not think of anything more mind numbing than being a parent - how repetitious and boring...but that is just me.

My job is very rewarding and I get to travel to alot of places and meet interesting people that I would not get the chance to do if I was a stay at home mum. I know which one I would perfer so I really dont think your friend is jealous of your lifestyle <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oops! I doubled up on my post!

When you are disconnected from your life, any task can be mind-numbing. Stress or exhaustion can also cause mental agony. You have to love the life you are in or create one that you can enjoy. The joy that my family brings into my life always far outweighs the pain. I feel blessed and lucky, and I know that rubs off on my kids.

As far as people being jealous of my life, I have been told so, more than once. Maybe it�s a case of the grass looking greener, but it�s also the fertilizer you use to cause your life to blossom. You know, a life filled with joy verses dull and empty.

I guess it depends....I'm home full time (used to have a career outside the home) and our life together is anything but boring and repetitious! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But it is what I make of it. We don't stay home and stare at each other. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We're out and about all week long, visiting museums, going to the library, etc...I go out with mommy friends at least once a week and am thoroughly enjoying life.

I hated the rat race and trying to "keep up" with everyone else. My kids are a blast and I love raising them.

Plus the fact that my 3 yr old for one keeps things very interesting, LOL! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There are times when I wish he weren't so interesting, because it's hard to know what he is going to get into next!

(His nickname is Houdini if that tells you anything!)

You do make some valid points... I guess the bottom line here is life is what you make it.

Sure there are alot of people out there that are unhappy in their jobs but in order to make a living and support their deppendants it s what they have to do,that is just life but then there are others like me who are so passionate about everything they do including their job - I dont think I am in some kind of rat race - quite the oppisite actually....Some parents out there feel like that too,they feel trapped in their situation and that is so sad as it does reflect on the children.

I am glad you are very happy in your life as you are right it does rub off on your children.Your life sounds very rewarding and I am sure it is for you.

Cheers! <img src="/images/graemlins/beamedup.gif" alt="" />

With the world being what it is. I think it is important for stay-at-home moms, now more than ever,to really think outside the box. With material things production in over-drive and stressful lives making lots of tension (school shootings, etc.) we moms are in a power position ( and generally, we don't know it) to show and direct kids away from the precipice of selfish egotism (for one thing.) I think the first step is to be present in the "big" picture, and not squirreled away gossiping with friends. But, taking charge in our homes and communities, to create a better life than the one that is offered, even if it is a good life good already.
I watched my mom reupholster a couch and chair when I was a kid, that is one small example that comes to mind, of how she gave me the feeling that I could do anything I set my mind to.

[color:"blue"] I don't think it as much as the non-childed are making you guys feel inferior, as you guys are just unhappy with your place in life. [/color]

I disagree, although I understand your perspective.

Mothering is heavily dosed in self-esteem issues. A career woman can prop herself up with her wardrobe, promotion, adult interacting. A stay-at-home mom, for all her struggles, has "herself" to tell her she is doing something right.

And sacrificing wages to insure she is there for her kids, (even though she may not be able to justify a new wardrobe or vacation away,) is benefitting her family in subtle ways she can't always notice or remember, when she sees her career oriented friends drive up in a new car.

I doubt many mothers dislike their choices. But, at a time of extreme buying, and "having" (as a measuring stick for esteem) it is tough to stand up for what is wholesome. But stay-at-home mothers most often do.

WaterLily, I was really upset one night when I wrote the original post (over a year ago - WOW!)

I will have to do some searching to find where the original conversation came from- but the poster, "Dr. Keith" (who no longer posts on here BTW) had made some truly disparaging remarks about us stay-at-home Moms. So he really was trying to say we were inferior - as a matter of fact those were pretty much his exact words - that people who didn't have children were more intellegent than those who did!

So I lambasted him! It was not the best thing in the world to do, but I take Ambien for on-going insomnia, and if I get on the computer after I take it, my brain's "governor" is sometimes down, and I'll say things that I maybe should just think and not say! <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Moms are the loveliest persons on this earth.

I bet there are some beautiful mothers out there - No doubt about that but there are also some awful ones out there aswell. No they are not all good - just like everyone else really.

I have actually read some of the posts on the CF board and it's actually quite sad how judgemental and degrading towards mothers they are. The term "breeder" is just plain mean. I was actually wondering if they refer to their own mothers that way....