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SPIRITUALITY VS RELIGION

SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT GOD IS WITHIN US AND THAT WE DON'T NEED ANYONE ELSE TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION FOR US
RELIGION SAYS THAT WE ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD AND THAT WE NEED "THEM" TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION

SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT WE ARE FREE TO MAKE CHOICES ON OUR OWN AND THAT WE MUST TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS
RELIGION SAYS WE MUST MAKE THEIR CHOICES AND ACT THEIR WAY

THE THEME OF SPIRITUALITY IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
THE THEME OF RELIGION IS FEAR AND GUILT

SPIRITUALITY DOES NOT REQUIRE US TO MAKE DONATIONS
RELIGION HAS BECOME BIG BUSINESS

SPIRITUALITY SAYS THERE IS NO HELL, NO JUDGEMENT, NO ANGRY GOD... THAT WE ARE LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY
RELIGION SAYS THERE IS A HELL, GOD GETS ANGRY AND JUDGES US... THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE OUR OWN PATH TO GOD
RELIGION COMMANDS US TO DO IT THEIR WAY

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE GO TO GOD TO LIGHTEN OUR BURDEN
RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEAR THEIR GOD

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED OF OUR SEXUALITY... THAT IT SHOULD BE A SACRED CELEBRATION OF LOVE
RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEEL ASHAMED, GUILTY AND DIRTY ABOUT OUR SEXUALITY

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HONOR AND RESPECT MOTHER EARTH
RELIGION HAS TOLD US TO "BE THOU FRUITFUL, MULTIPLY AND SUBDUE THE EARTH" I REPEAT... "SUBDUE THE EARTH"

SPIRITUALITY REMINDS US THAT WE ARE ONE WITH GOD AND ONE WITH EACH OTHER
RELIGION TEACHES DISUNITY AND SEPARATION WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF GOD

SPIRITUALITY SAYS GOD IS WITHIN
RELIGION SAYS HE IS IN HEAVEN AND THAT "THEY" ARE THE ONLY INTERMEDIARIES FOR US

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE BORN IN INNOCENCE AND PURITY
RELIGION SAYS WE ARE BORN WITH SIN

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE ARE ON A LONG SPIRITUAL ADVENTURE AND JOURNEY WHICH WILL ULTIMATELY END BY REUNITING WITH OUR SOURCE
RELIGION SAYS WE'VE GOT ONE LIFE TO GET IT ALL RIGHT AND THERE IS NOTHING BUT HEAVEN OR HELL AFTER THAT

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO EXPRESS
RELIGION GAVE US THE DREADED INQUISITION

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR ALL
RELIGION GAVE US THE CRUSADES IN WHICH MANY WERE KILLED AND SLAUGHTERED IN THE NAME OF GOD

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE SHOULD LOVE ONE ANOTHER UNCONDITIONALLY AND ALWAYS HONOR THE RIGHTS AND CHOICES OF OTHERS
RELIGION TREATED NATIVE AMERICANS, THE MAYANS AND OTHER INDIGENOUS CULTURES AS SAVAGE PRIMITIVES WHO "MUST BE SAVED"

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES PEACE AND HARMONY
RELIGION HAS CAUSED MORE WARS AND MORE KILLING THAN ANY OTHER REASON

SPIRITUALITY SAYS RESPECT ALL LIVING THINGS
I NEVER ONCE HEARD ANY RELIGION SAY STOP SLAUGHTERING MILLIONS OF TREES EVERY YEAR FOR CHRIST'S BIRTHDAY

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN OURSELVES
RELIGION TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN THEM

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS... THAT WE CAN FIND THEM BY "GOING WITHIN"
RELIGION TEACHES US THAT IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS AND ONLY ITS ANSWERS ARE THE RIGHT ONES

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO SEARCH FOR THE UNIVERSAL TRUTHS AND OUR HEARTS WILL TELL US WHEN WE HAVE FOUND THEM
RELIGION TEACHES WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEIR VERSION OF THE TRUTH

-Author Unknown

Ok...just one little point, and yes I know that you cut and pasted it from somewhere else...or atleast im assuming with the 'author unknown' bit. The christmas tree is a pagan symbol for winter solstice and the beginning of the turn towards spring, rather than celebrating the birthday of a prophet.

It doesn't look like there's any place for the Bible in Spirituality. <img src="/images/graemlins/angel.gif" alt="" />

Regardless it is still used at Christmas, the holiday purposed for celebrating the birth of Christ. Easter is supposed to celebrate the resurrection of Christ but is symbolized by the Easter Bunny, the God of fertility. What strange practices Christians have. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

These are the ones that I believe are in direct conflict with the Bible, not with what someone has taught me.
All of these passages are from the New King James version of the bible, coutesy of a program called Quickverse.
[color:"red"]Deuteronomy 32
�And when the Lord saw it, He spurned them,
Because of the provocation of His sons and His daughters.
20 And He said: �I will hide My face from them,
I will see what their end will be,
For they are a perverse generation,
Children in whom is no faith.
21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God;
They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols.
But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation;
I will move them to anger by a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in My anger,
And shall burn to the lowest hell;
It shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 �I will heap disasters on them;
I will spend My arrows on them.
24 They shall be wasted with hunger,
Devoured by pestilence and bitter destruction;
I will also send against them the teeth of beasts,
With the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword shall destroy outside;
There shall be terror within
For the young man and virgin,
The nursing child with the man of gray hairs.
26 I would have said, �I will dash them in pieces,
I will make the memory of them to cease from among men,�
27 Had I not feared the wrath of the enemy,
Lest their adversaries should misunderstand,
Lest they should say, �Our hand is high;
And it is not the Lord who has done all this.� [/color]

[color:"purple"]John 3
1There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, �Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.�
3Jesus answered and said to him, �Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.�
4Nicodemus said to Him, �How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother�s womb and be born?�
5Jesus answered, �Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, �You must be born again.� 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.�

9Nicodemus answered and said to Him, �How can these things be?�
10Jesus answered and said to him, �Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man �who is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should �not perish but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18�He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God[/color]

Also, Christians weren't the ones who added the easter bunny and the Christmas tree to the holidays, we've unfortunately lost track of much of our history. THAT is something that we Americans ARE very bad about! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

First off this post is not comparing spirituality to the bible it is comparing spirituality to religion. Religion and the bible are two seperate things. Religion is man made and is often not consistent with the book it claims to teach and follow. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Additionally there are hundreds of religions all spawned from the same book so everything in the bible is dependant on interpretation.

And lets see...Who celebrates Christmas and Easter? Who buys Christmas trees and chocolate easter bunnies? Oh, that's right, Christians. Christians are the ones who keep alive the pagan traditions.

Also I seem to remember a few instances in the bible called Sodom and Gamora and Noah's Ark. You are going to base your argument on one instance in the bible where someone else attacked people, that is a logical fallacy called hasty generalization. There are things written to support both of our arguments but you can't ignore contradictory evidence simply because it doesn't support your point of view.

I believe in God and I believe much of what is in the bible but I am not going to go to some church and have someone else try to brainwash me according to who/what they believe God is. I am not going to take some preacher's word and treasure it as if it is gold. I will be dead before you ever see me in a church service.

Yes, but in attacking "religion" it seems most aimed at Christians. Especially when talking about the crusades and such. Don't get me wrong, those were horrible things done in the name of the Lord, that He never would condone. And when it comes to Christianity our basis for belief is the bible. I didn't mean to sound hostile, I realize now it came off a bit angry, and for that I apologize, I tend to get carried away sometimes. I guess I'm a little defensive when it seems like my beliefs are being attacked.

As for Christmas and Easter, there are people who don't believe in ANYTHING that celebrate those. That's where the commercialism comes in. I have to give my pastor very high marks in that he has never deluded his children about Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy (I'm not that good, I think they're cute fantasies). But according to his values, he believes they take away from the true meaning of these religious holidays. He DOESN'T have a Christmas tree in his home. He allows one in the foyer of our church, but not in the sanctuary.

I don't understand your argument of Sodom & Gamora & Noah's Ark, they seem to support my theory that God does get angry and meet out punishment where justified, but they also show that He has mercy upon those that follow His will.

You don't have to go to church, but if you are going to believe in the Bible, you can't just pick and choose the parts that you like, you have to take all of it.

The hope comes in this; the trilogy. God is the Father, He sometimes becomes angry and punishes us as His children. He became flesh, Jesus Christ the Son, so that He could not only suffer what man suffered, but so that He could take man's sins. (Read the 1st tachings of Jesus in Matthew, Jesus says what He came for), then finally He is the Holy Spirit, that part of Him that resides in us AFTER we accept Him, as our guide, conscience, moral compass, comforter, and friend.

The bible is good news, but you have to accept all of it in order to grow.

You are right when you say I am only attacking Christianity but it is the only type of religion I can disagree with because it is the only I know enough about. I cannot logically dispute beliefs, like Buddhism for example, that I do not have enough information on to build an argument.

I can understand your hostility though. It is normal for a person to be on the defensive when something they put so much stock in is being questioned. And I agree with the whole commercialism idea also. Big business pushes ideas such as Santa, Easter Bunny, and such because there is a lot of money to make there, and when commercialism gets your child so engorged into and idea it is difficult for a parent to disappoint them. My boyfriend was so angry with his parents when he discovered Santa was a lie. He was heart broken that they would lie to him about it and even though he was just a kid they lost his trust instantly. Even now he is bitter over the fact that his parents, who are supposed to nurture and prepare him for adulthood, were so dishonest. He refuses to support such ideas now when it comes to his daughter.

I came to this forum of spirituality and opposed to a specific religion because I wanted to be able to speak to open-minded people about beliefs and ideas instead of having some religious fanatic tell me how wrong I am. The reason I am so strong against religion is for that very reason. Refer back to last three stances of original post: " RELIGION TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN THEM," "RELIGION TEACHES US THAT IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS AND ONLY ITS ANSWERS ARE THE RIGHT ONES," and "RELIGION TEACHES WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEIR VERSION OF THE TRUTH."

And now hear you are forcing your beliefs onto me. Implying that I have to believe the entire bible or I shouldn't believe in it at all. Man wrote the Bible and much of it has been lost or changed in translation and in accordance to the beliefs of those in power at the time. And for that reason I will not put all of my faith in a man made book, not unless God himself comes to me and tells me that it is 100% correct.

You tell me that our hope comes in the trinity. Well I do not believe in the trinity. I do not think God and Jesus are the same person. Jesus is God's son and not God himself, just as my brother is our dad's son and not our dad himself. I also do not believe in the existence of hell. If I as human do not have the heart to sentence a person to eternity of torment than how could God, a God with more love than any human has the capacity for, sentence anyone to an eternity of torment?

I am sure now you are going to try to convince me other wise telling my how wrong I am and how right you are, maybe not now that I have called you on it. That is just how religion works. They get you followers so brainwashed to their ideas to ensure that the donations keep coming. Every religion claims to be the only right one...they cannot all be right. But then again maybe they are all right. Maybe we are all right. It should not matter what you believe, it should only matter that you do believe.

If you haven't watched the movie "Dogma" I highly suggest you do and really think about and analyze everything the movie says when it comes to religion. Unless you are offended by cussing than you may not want to watch it.

Yeah, I wasn't too crazy by the cussing in it. I'm sorry i've come off so pushy. i'm a failry new Christian and very excited about it, from my point of view (and yes it is that Jesus is the only way)if people don't accept Jesus then they are condemned to Hell. That is not the main part of what God and Jesus are about, but it is the final part. And to me it is a very scary thing that if i don't reach someone, it might be my fault that they don't reach heaven. That is a great burden to carry on my heart.

I don't mean to force my beliefs on you (please read my post on "When do I let up?"), i just SO want no-one to suffer that it hurts, I'm not doing this out of a desire to be right. I guess I saw the poem you posted and thought "uh-oh, I better show people there's another side to that fast!"

The one thing I am sure of is God wants us to love one another, whatever we believe, and i haven't done a very good job of demonstrating that. <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" />

Kat1980,

It's good that this debate is entitled "Sprituality vs Religion"

I just wanted to come in before this whole thing got way out of hand.... Linda Sue, I hope I'm not over stepping boundaries... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The points mentioned here are very good on both sides. However (fancy but), I think whats being missed is the FACT that true Christianity is not "religion" at least not according to Websters definition of the word :

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
http://www.m-w.com/

True Christianity is a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

AND much like a new engagement or impending birth, all the new (young) Christian can do is talk about what this new relationship is like for them...

No one is forced to believe anything they don't want to... just like I don't have to believe what anyone else believes either...I also don't have to accept it...

I don't like to have someone bash the Word of God if I believe it to be precious anymore than you like to have your beliefs dissceted into small pieces...

We just have to agree to disagree and let God sort it all out...at least the seeds have been planted.

NOW...
there are some churches out there that do preach the message that one has to obey the doctrine in order to belong...but basically the "Church" is the body of believers who follow Christ... the actions of a few don't define the practices of the many. For example, am I to presume that you are Pagan by beliefs because you happen to dislike organized religion and that your disdain for Christians in general is caused by a bad church experience??? Maybe but, instead, I CHOOSE to believe that you have just been confused by some false information and I CHOOSE to feel confident that the Lord will help you sort through it all and in due time you will find truth in your own heart.

As for santa and the Easter Bunny, you might want to check in with the Pagan Editor about what she has to say about the history of these practices, but from what I can remember, they were intermingled together with Christianity to help bring forth the revival in Europe, again, I might be (probably) wrong and she would know more than I would about it. In my home we don't celebrate Christmas with a whole bunch of hoopla, we DO honor and celebrate the birth of Christ. On Easter there is very little candy and a whole lot of joy over the Resurrection of Christ. We don't celebrate Halloween at all (last year we watched The Passion on DVD at home), and Thanksgiving is a time to reflect on what God has done for us the past year. We do reflect with turkey though. We don't celebrate Columbus day because my husband is Native American...lol. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Being a Jesus follower is not about doctrin, its about life. Being born again is not a state of mind, it changes ones DNA.

You can say whatever you want to about the statements I just made, you can scoff and point and jeer, but you won't topple my faith and you won't knock me off my granite foundation set by the love of God who says that I am worth dying for...

If you don't want Christians to stand up for what they believe in, don't make broad, across the board, critical comments about something that is precious to us. If you want respect, you have to give it...

Anyways....The heat of the kitchen and all that...Linda Sue, you can surely let me know if I have been out of line in your forum. I hope not, but if so I will apologize to you now. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />