SPIRITUALITY VS RELIGION

SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT GOD IS WITHIN US AND THAT WE DON'T NEED ANYONE ELSE TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION FOR US
RELIGION SAYS THAT WE ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD AND THAT WE NEED "THEM" TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION

SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT WE ARE FREE TO MAKE CHOICES ON OUR OWN AND THAT WE MUST TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS
RELIGION SAYS WE MUST MAKE THEIR CHOICES AND ACT THEIR WAY

THE THEME OF SPIRITUALITY IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
THE THEME OF RELIGION IS FEAR AND GUILT

SPIRITUALITY DOES NOT REQUIRE US TO MAKE DONATIONS
RELIGION HAS BECOME BIG BUSINESS

SPIRITUALITY SAYS THERE IS NO HELL, NO JUDGEMENT, NO ANGRY GOD... THAT WE ARE LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY
RELIGION SAYS THERE IS A HELL, GOD GETS ANGRY AND JUDGES US... THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE OUR OWN PATH TO GOD
RELIGION COMMANDS US TO DO IT THEIR WAY

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE GO TO GOD TO LIGHTEN OUR BURDEN
RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEAR THEIR GOD

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED OF OUR SEXUALITY... THAT IT SHOULD BE A SACRED CELEBRATION OF LOVE
RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEEL ASHAMED, GUILTY AND DIRTY ABOUT OUR SEXUALITY

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HONOR AND RESPECT MOTHER EARTH
RELIGION HAS TOLD US TO "BE THOU FRUITFUL, MULTIPLY AND SUBDUE THE EARTH" I REPEAT... "SUBDUE THE EARTH"

SPIRITUALITY REMINDS US THAT WE ARE ONE WITH GOD AND ONE WITH EACH OTHER
RELIGION TEACHES DISUNITY AND SEPARATION WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF GOD

SPIRITUALITY SAYS GOD IS WITHIN
RELIGION SAYS HE IS IN HEAVEN AND THAT "THEY" ARE THE ONLY INTERMEDIARIES FOR US

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE BORN IN INNOCENCE AND PURITY
RELIGION SAYS WE ARE BORN WITH SIN

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE ARE ON A LONG SPIRITUAL ADVENTURE AND JOURNEY WHICH WILL ULTIMATELY END BY REUNITING WITH OUR SOURCE
RELIGION SAYS WE'VE GOT ONE LIFE TO GET IT ALL RIGHT AND THERE IS NOTHING BUT HEAVEN OR HELL AFTER THAT

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO EXPRESS
RELIGION GAVE US THE DREADED INQUISITION

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR ALL
RELIGION GAVE US THE CRUSADES IN WHICH MANY WERE KILLED AND SLAUGHTERED IN THE NAME OF GOD

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE SHOULD LOVE ONE ANOTHER UNCONDITIONALLY AND ALWAYS HONOR THE RIGHTS AND CHOICES OF OTHERS
RELIGION TREATED NATIVE AMERICANS, THE MAYANS AND OTHER INDIGENOUS CULTURES AS SAVAGE PRIMITIVES WHO "MUST BE SAVED"

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES PEACE AND HARMONY
RELIGION HAS CAUSED MORE WARS AND MORE KILLING THAN ANY OTHER REASON

SPIRITUALITY SAYS RESPECT ALL LIVING THINGS
I NEVER ONCE HEARD ANY RELIGION SAY STOP SLAUGHTERING MILLIONS OF TREES EVERY YEAR FOR CHRIST'S BIRTHDAY

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN OURSELVES
RELIGION TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN THEM

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS... THAT WE CAN FIND THEM BY "GOING WITHIN"
RELIGION TEACHES US THAT IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS AND ONLY ITS ANSWERS ARE THE RIGHT ONES

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO SEARCH FOR THE UNIVERSAL TRUTHS AND OUR HEARTS WILL TELL US WHEN WE HAVE FOUND THEM
RELIGION TEACHES WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEIR VERSION OF THE TRUTH

-Author Unknown

Ok...just one little point, and yes I know that you cut and pasted it from somewhere else...or atleast im assuming with the 'author unknown' bit. The christmas tree is a pagan symbol for winter solstice and the beginning of the turn towards spring, rather than celebrating the birthday of a prophet.

It doesn't look like there's any place for the Bible in Spirituality. <img src="/images/graemlins/angel.gif" alt="" />

Regardless it is still used at Christmas, the holiday purposed for celebrating the birth of Christ. Easter is supposed to celebrate the resurrection of Christ but is symbolized by the Easter Bunny, the God of fertility. What strange practices Christians have. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

These are the ones that I believe are in direct conflict with the Bible, not with what someone has taught me.
All of these passages are from the New King James version of the bible, coutesy of a program called Quickverse.
[color:"red"]Deuteronomy 32
�And when the Lord saw it, He spurned them,
Because of the provocation of His sons and His daughters.
20 And He said: �I will hide My face from them,
I will see what their end will be,
For they are a perverse generation,
Children in whom is no faith.
21 They have provoked Me to jealousy by what is not God;
They have moved Me to anger by their foolish idols.
But I will provoke them to jealousy by those who are not a nation;
I will move them to anger by a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in My anger,
And shall burn to the lowest hell;
It shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 �I will heap disasters on them;
I will spend My arrows on them.
24 They shall be wasted with hunger,
Devoured by pestilence and bitter destruction;
I will also send against them the teeth of beasts,
With the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword shall destroy outside;
There shall be terror within
For the young man and virgin,
The nursing child with the man of gray hairs.
26 I would have said, �I will dash them in pieces,
I will make the memory of them to cease from among men,�
27 Had I not feared the wrath of the enemy,
Lest their adversaries should misunderstand,
Lest they should say, �Our hand is high;
And it is not the Lord who has done all this.� [/color]

[color:"purple"]John 3
1There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, �Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.�
3Jesus answered and said to him, �Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.�
4Nicodemus said to Him, �How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother�s womb and be born?�
5Jesus answered, �Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Do not marvel that I said to you, �You must be born again.� 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.�

9Nicodemus answered and said to Him, �How can these things be?�
10Jesus answered and said to him, �Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man �who is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should �not perish but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18�He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God[/color]

Also, Christians weren't the ones who added the easter bunny and the Christmas tree to the holidays, we've unfortunately lost track of much of our history. THAT is something that we Americans ARE very bad about! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

First off this post is not comparing spirituality to the bible it is comparing spirituality to religion. Religion and the bible are two seperate things. Religion is man made and is often not consistent with the book it claims to teach and follow. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Additionally there are hundreds of religions all spawned from the same book so everything in the bible is dependant on interpretation.

And lets see...Who celebrates Christmas and Easter? Who buys Christmas trees and chocolate easter bunnies? Oh, that's right, Christians. Christians are the ones who keep alive the pagan traditions.

Also I seem to remember a few instances in the bible called Sodom and Gamora and Noah's Ark. You are going to base your argument on one instance in the bible where someone else attacked people, that is a logical fallacy called hasty generalization. There are things written to support both of our arguments but you can't ignore contradictory evidence simply because it doesn't support your point of view.

I believe in God and I believe much of what is in the bible but I am not going to go to some church and have someone else try to brainwash me according to who/what they believe God is. I am not going to take some preacher's word and treasure it as if it is gold. I will be dead before you ever see me in a church service.

Yes, but in attacking "religion" it seems most aimed at Christians. Especially when talking about the crusades and such. Don't get me wrong, those were horrible things done in the name of the Lord, that He never would condone. And when it comes to Christianity our basis for belief is the bible. I didn't mean to sound hostile, I realize now it came off a bit angry, and for that I apologize, I tend to get carried away sometimes. I guess I'm a little defensive when it seems like my beliefs are being attacked.

As for Christmas and Easter, there are people who don't believe in ANYTHING that celebrate those. That's where the commercialism comes in. I have to give my pastor very high marks in that he has never deluded his children about Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy (I'm not that good, I think they're cute fantasies). But according to his values, he believes they take away from the true meaning of these religious holidays. He DOESN'T have a Christmas tree in his home. He allows one in the foyer of our church, but not in the sanctuary.

I don't understand your argument of Sodom & Gamora & Noah's Ark, they seem to support my theory that God does get angry and meet out punishment where justified, but they also show that He has mercy upon those that follow His will.

You don't have to go to church, but if you are going to believe in the Bible, you can't just pick and choose the parts that you like, you have to take all of it.

The hope comes in this; the trilogy. God is the Father, He sometimes becomes angry and punishes us as His children. He became flesh, Jesus Christ the Son, so that He could not only suffer what man suffered, but so that He could take man's sins. (Read the 1st tachings of Jesus in Matthew, Jesus says what He came for), then finally He is the Holy Spirit, that part of Him that resides in us AFTER we accept Him, as our guide, conscience, moral compass, comforter, and friend.

The bible is good news, but you have to accept all of it in order to grow.

You are right when you say I am only attacking Christianity but it is the only type of religion I can disagree with because it is the only I know enough about. I cannot logically dispute beliefs, like Buddhism for example, that I do not have enough information on to build an argument.

I can understand your hostility though. It is normal for a person to be on the defensive when something they put so much stock in is being questioned. And I agree with the whole commercialism idea also. Big business pushes ideas such as Santa, Easter Bunny, and such because there is a lot of money to make there, and when commercialism gets your child so engorged into and idea it is difficult for a parent to disappoint them. My boyfriend was so angry with his parents when he discovered Santa was a lie. He was heart broken that they would lie to him about it and even though he was just a kid they lost his trust instantly. Even now he is bitter over the fact that his parents, who are supposed to nurture and prepare him for adulthood, were so dishonest. He refuses to support such ideas now when it comes to his daughter.

I came to this forum of spirituality and opposed to a specific religion because I wanted to be able to speak to open-minded people about beliefs and ideas instead of having some religious fanatic tell me how wrong I am. The reason I am so strong against religion is for that very reason. Refer back to last three stances of original post: " RELIGION TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN THEM," "RELIGION TEACHES US THAT IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS AND ONLY ITS ANSWERS ARE THE RIGHT ONES," and "RELIGION TEACHES WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEIR VERSION OF THE TRUTH."

And now hear you are forcing your beliefs onto me. Implying that I have to believe the entire bible or I shouldn't believe in it at all. Man wrote the Bible and much of it has been lost or changed in translation and in accordance to the beliefs of those in power at the time. And for that reason I will not put all of my faith in a man made book, not unless God himself comes to me and tells me that it is 100% correct.

You tell me that our hope comes in the trinity. Well I do not believe in the trinity. I do not think God and Jesus are the same person. Jesus is God's son and not God himself, just as my brother is our dad's son and not our dad himself. I also do not believe in the existence of hell. If I as human do not have the heart to sentence a person to eternity of torment than how could God, a God with more love than any human has the capacity for, sentence anyone to an eternity of torment?

I am sure now you are going to try to convince me other wise telling my how wrong I am and how right you are, maybe not now that I have called you on it. That is just how religion works. They get you followers so brainwashed to their ideas to ensure that the donations keep coming. Every religion claims to be the only right one...they cannot all be right. But then again maybe they are all right. Maybe we are all right. It should not matter what you believe, it should only matter that you do believe.

If you haven't watched the movie "Dogma" I highly suggest you do and really think about and analyze everything the movie says when it comes to religion. Unless you are offended by cussing than you may not want to watch it.

Yeah, I wasn't too crazy by the cussing in it. I'm sorry i've come off so pushy. i'm a failry new Christian and very excited about it, from my point of view (and yes it is that Jesus is the only way)if people don't accept Jesus then they are condemned to Hell. That is not the main part of what God and Jesus are about, but it is the final part. And to me it is a very scary thing that if i don't reach someone, it might be my fault that they don't reach heaven. That is a great burden to carry on my heart.

I don't mean to force my beliefs on you (please read my post on "When do I let up?"), i just SO want no-one to suffer that it hurts, I'm not doing this out of a desire to be right. I guess I saw the poem you posted and thought "uh-oh, I better show people there's another side to that fast!"

The one thing I am sure of is God wants us to love one another, whatever we believe, and i haven't done a very good job of demonstrating that. <img src="/images/graemlins/wall.gif" alt="" />

Kat1980,

It's good that this debate is entitled "Sprituality vs Religion"

I just wanted to come in before this whole thing got way out of hand.... Linda Sue, I hope I'm not over stepping boundaries... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The points mentioned here are very good on both sides. However (fancy but), I think whats being missed is the FACT that true Christianity is not "religion" at least not according to Websters definition of the word :

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
http://www.m-w.com/

True Christianity is a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

AND much like a new engagement or impending birth, all the new (young) Christian can do is talk about what this new relationship is like for them...

No one is forced to believe anything they don't want to... just like I don't have to believe what anyone else believes either...I also don't have to accept it...

I don't like to have someone bash the Word of God if I believe it to be precious anymore than you like to have your beliefs dissceted into small pieces...

We just have to agree to disagree and let God sort it all out...at least the seeds have been planted.

NOW...
there are some churches out there that do preach the message that one has to obey the doctrine in order to belong...but basically the "Church" is the body of believers who follow Christ... the actions of a few don't define the practices of the many. For example, am I to presume that you are Pagan by beliefs because you happen to dislike organized religion and that your disdain for Christians in general is caused by a bad church experience??? Maybe but, instead, I CHOOSE to believe that you have just been confused by some false information and I CHOOSE to feel confident that the Lord will help you sort through it all and in due time you will find truth in your own heart.

As for santa and the Easter Bunny, you might want to check in with the Pagan Editor about what she has to say about the history of these practices, but from what I can remember, they were intermingled together with Christianity to help bring forth the revival in Europe, again, I might be (probably) wrong and she would know more than I would about it. In my home we don't celebrate Christmas with a whole bunch of hoopla, we DO honor and celebrate the birth of Christ. On Easter there is very little candy and a whole lot of joy over the Resurrection of Christ. We don't celebrate Halloween at all (last year we watched The Passion on DVD at home), and Thanksgiving is a time to reflect on what God has done for us the past year. We do reflect with turkey though. We don't celebrate Columbus day because my husband is Native American...lol. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Being a Jesus follower is not about doctrin, its about life. Being born again is not a state of mind, it changes ones DNA.

You can say whatever you want to about the statements I just made, you can scoff and point and jeer, but you won't topple my faith and you won't knock me off my granite foundation set by the love of God who says that I am worth dying for...

If you don't want Christians to stand up for what they believe in, don't make broad, across the board, critical comments about something that is precious to us. If you want respect, you have to give it...

Anyways....The heat of the kitchen and all that...Linda Sue, you can surely let me know if I have been out of line in your forum. I hope not, but if so I will apologize to you now. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, Jenna, the easter bunny, tannebaum, halloween (followed by the very christian READ :catholic: All Saints Day), ground hogs day (catholic candlemas), and I'm sure many others are all rooted in some sort of paganism. In order to bring about conformity and such those traditions were absorbed into the faith to make it easier to make the pagans believers.
I will say that my mild disdain for born agains is having what used to be a very good friend of mine badger me constantly about accepting the lord and savior into my life etc etc. I could prattle on...but she got to be too much about it. What she didnt know is that I was raised in the church went to sunday school for years as well as VBS. And that my gram & mom were sunday school teachers for a good 50+ years combined.
Hence why I like it here..."most" people dont assume you must be saved. However kat, like jenna said you must give respect to get it...I advise against coming into any forum with guns ablaze blasting another persons belief system.

I am sorry my mistake. I thought this was a Spirituality forum not a Christianity forum. Perhaps the name should be changed to Christianity if that is the case.

I think the mistake was mine. I saw the title Spirituality vs Religion and i thought it was a debate! I love debates, I used to be on the debate team in college, add that to the fact that i have been STARVED for adult conversation for about the past year (i never knew there were websites like this, before I found this place, this is great!), and the fact that i am very excited about my faith and well....
picture a hyperactive pomeranian that just drank a coke!
Buddy, I was ready to debate! I really wan't trying to convert anyone, I just wanted you (Kat) to cede a point to me. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Then I got carried away. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Maybe next time write Poem: Spirituality vs Religion. Cause when I see that "vs" I'm comin out with the boxin gloves on!

Seriously, I hope we can all put this behind us, and realize where our boundaries are. I'm the newbie, oh excuse me I'm now an official amoeba, so I guess i needed the map the most.

Sincere apologies all around ladies.
Michelle

When reading other peoples posta may I repeat a mantra that we use at work ALL the time....'Slow down, nice & easy' course there are accompany-ing hand gestures and voice alterations but I wont go into that...in short, what i mean is read the a post...if it upsets you dont reply..sit on it and think about what they are saying then post later int he afternoon or even the next day. rather than starting a scathing reply loaded to the brim with preaching and sarcasm.

Preaching I'll definitely admit to, I didn't realize I was terribly sarcastic, though.

Hmmmmmmm, better go sit on my hands a while. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Musicalmom there is no need for an apology. I think all of this is just a misunderstanding. You seem like a very nice person and I don't want any animosity between us.

Kat, you may change your mind about me when you read my postings in the low carb forum!

We'll just say I had a bad week last week. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And I'll go ahead and apologize again. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I came across a neat quote today by Marilyn Ferguson:

Spirituality is a kind of virgin wisdom, a knowing that comes prior to experience.

Religion, IMO, comes after teaching and indocrination.

Often, in order to re-connect with our spirits and the Divine, we need to shed the teachings of pastors, parents, and books--if we dare to do so. I offer that most "religious belief" has come from the outside, and isn't even borne out of personal experience.

That's one of the reasons I like Jesus so much: he came to sever the reliance on doctrine and man's ideas about God through direct experience, leading others back to themselves to find the "kingdom of God within".

Unfortunately, should Jesus walk the Earth today, he wouldn't recognize his teachings and would likely be stoned by his own "followers".

I'm goin to hit these in backwards order (I'm still not very good at using all the neat tool on here yet, sorry)

I struggle, a lot, with whether I am following Jesus' teachings, which basically boil down to; love they neighbor & lead by serving. You're right, he wouldn't recognize that in a lot of His churches today. We are like the early Jews, expecting Messiah to come in glorious splendor, instead of peaceful comfort.

But I don't believe He meant for us to find the kingdom of God within. I believe we are to ask Him into our hearts and then the Holy Spirit comes to reside in us. Until we do that we are separated from God, there isn't any way for us to find Him within. <img src="/images/graemlins/angel.gif" alt="" />

Well, traditional Christianity may teach that you can't experience God without asking him to come "inside". The funny thing is the Bible also says that "no one can come to the Father except the Holy Spirit draws him." So does that mean that only those specially chosen by God can even get past the first step of being "drawn" before the second step of "accept"?

I don't think so.

I do agree that many Christians are like the early Jews in that they are expecting the Messiah to come with vengeance towards 'unbelievers' and then evacuate the 'believers' out of the Earth.



That's what the religious leaders of the day thought, too, which is why they stoned Jesus. The idea that you can find the kingdom of God within through a direct experience with the Divine is very dangerous to religion. It's also very dangerous to the human ego that has built up a fortress based on teachings that say God is "out there", only accessible by "chosen ones".

If Jesus didn't mean for us to find the Kindgom within, then why did he say:

"Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21

An interesting treatment of the kingdom of God within:

http://www.gnostic-jesus.com/

Thanks,I'll check it out!

Not sure what the gist of this post was intended to be, but it seems to me it was a question of what is spirituality vs religion for your readers?

If that is the case - to me, spirituality is a calling within a person's spirit that directs their philosophy of life, and guides their belief system. It is deeper than the physical and not as tangible as the "rational." It is a call to spirit.

Religion is any set of beliefs held by a group of individuals who individually or jointly practice said beliefs in conjunction with set rituals and authoratative texts. Religion may or may not be spiritual.

KendraShai

That's a good way of defining it! IMHO <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, traditional Christianity may teach that you can't experience God without asking him to come "inside". The funny thing is the Bible also says that "no one can come to the Father except the Holy Spirit draws him." So does that mean that only those specially chosen by God can even get past the first step of being "drawn" before the second step of "accept"? - Janet

John 4:23 "But the time is coming--it has, in fact, come--when what you're called will not matter and where you go to worship will not matter. "It's who you are and the way you live that count before God. Your worship must engage your spirit in the pursuit of truth. That's the kind of people the Father is out looking for: those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship."

1Th 2:11 "You experienced it all firsthand. With each of you we were like a father with his child,
1Th 2:12 holding your hand, whispering encouragement, showing you step-by-step how to live well before God, who called us into his own kingdom, into this delightful life."

Jam 1:18 "He brought us to life using the true Word, showing us off as the crown of all his creatures."

Hi Janet..it's nice to see you in the forums again...however, I could go on and on with Scripture to back up my point..being that yes, we are ALL called to come to the Father through Jesus. And, YES, He is the only way. Otherwise, he would not have had to die for ALL of us. It's not that there are only a select few....God desires that none should perish..He wants US ALL!! We are all special!!!

One more:
1Cor 1:9 "God, who got you started in this spiritual adventure, shares with us the life of his Son and our Master Jesus. He will never give up on you. Never forget that."

On the issue of religion vs Spirituality God says:
Jam 1:26 "Anyone who sets himself up as "religious" by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air.
Jam 1:27 Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this: Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world."

Dear Visitors,

It is gratifying to see such a lively exchange of ideas in the area of spirituality and religion.

My current article focuses on this topic. I thought you might find it useful in your discussion. My article is titled "Spirituality, Religion, and Business":
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art6709.asp

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the forum.

i like that comparison of spiritualism and religion much better than the last! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You are right, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. I have felt very guilty, because up until about a year ago, I was one of those that only took that 1st step. I was a Baptist, but I wasn't a Christian - meaning I wasn't Christ-like. I had not allowed Him to have control of my soul and to lead my heart. I did not feel a great need to get to know Him better (I think because part of me knew that if I did, so much more would be expected of me). And while, yes, more IS expected of me; I have gained so much more in return! <img src="/images/graemlins/heart.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for taking over your forum the way we have. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Dear Michelle,

Don't be sorry! I'm happy to see a lively discussion in the forum. It's usually so quiet.

And to all who have posted, a big thank you! I hope it continues and spreads to other areas of discussion.

Kendra I agree with you on your definitions.

I believe very much in God and do my best to be a good person and treat people well. It is organized religion that I despise. Religion is big business and I detest what it stands for. Religion is about control and money. *Not to mention deeply religious people are the most narrow-minded and judgmental people that I have met. I have also noticed that they are controlling and sometime manipulative.* But I don't want to lump all religious people into those categories. There are some out there who don�t fit into what I have just described.

I understand that these people whole-heartedly believe that they are doing a good thing by trying to force their beliefs onto others, but there are a hundred other religions out there doing the same thing...each one claiming to be the only "true" religion.

*Please note that these statements are my own opinion based on my own experiences*

I wanted to clear up a few things.
1.The Holy of Holies, or the place where God dwells, is inside you.In your heart.You body is a temple. This earth is ruled by satan. We are at war and the believers in Christ are behind enemy lines. As long as we keep Heaven in our hearts then we can carry the battle. This is what Jesus meant. When you say the Lord's prayer, " on earth as it is in Heaven.", you are proving the distinction.Heaven is a real place separate from this earth. Jesus is the ONLY way to get to God the Father. It is written, " I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NO ONE goes to the Father but by Me."( my emphasis added)
2.The battle is a spiritual battle in the heart, of the heart, and for the heart.
3.The Christmas tree is a creation of St. Boniface. The pagans of Germany believed that evergreen boughs were holy because they survived green during the winter which they believed symbolized death. St. Boniface took a small green evergreen tree that had a triangular shape and used it to illustrate the Holy Trinity to the German pagans. They loved this illustration and accepted Christ. In commemoration of their conversion the Germans accepted the tree to celebrate the birth of their Savior. God is well versed at taking evil and changing it for good.

True Christianity is not a religion, it is a faith. Religions are created by men. Christianity was founded by God manifested in the flesh, Jesus Christ. Religion tries to reach out to God. The finite trying to reach out to the infinite. ( impossible). Christianity is mankind accepting mercy through Jesus Christ. I.E. God reaching out to man. The infinite reaching down to the finite. (possible)Christians ARE narrow minded. We limit our desires and beliefs to God's desires. Everything outside God's desires is sin.It is written," For the way is narrow and there are few who find it." What you see as judgement by Christians is really discernment. There is a big difference. Judgement is a decision. We are not allowed to make judgements about what is right or wrong.God does that. We DISCERN between behaviors to determine if they are right or wrong based on the judgements God has already made.

This was a VERY lively debate. I guess I have a certain take on it. I think everyone can subscribe to some form of "spirituality" in their lives. Even if it is simply in terms of their inner self. A spirit can be used to describe the essential essence of a being. A person. You know -"he has a good spirit or he has crushed his spirit etc."

I guess my feelings are that religion and spirituality are two completely separate things. Religion refers to an organized way of believing how you and the world came to be, how to live in it, and what happens afterwards. Whether you are in Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, whatever...

Someone can be spiritual and not subscribe to any specific religion - and I think that this is what this forum and this site should be all about. Giving people an outlet to learn and talk who are concerned about their spirituality - not their personal organized religion.

No offense to those of you who believe it is all or nothing - trust me I know all about Christianity and Catholicism - but feeding and nurturing the "spirit" do nothing to take away from those beliefs. Don't you think?

Jesus did NOT come to sever doctrine. He severed traditions that were man based and not God based but He never severed the Law. He said that not one tittle of the Law would change until all had been fulfilled. Jesus said He was sinless therefore He never broke the Law. Before you fix a problem you must first realize you have a problem. The Law of the Old Testament was like holding a mirror up to your face to reveal your flaws. The Law told you what was wrong and right and how we don't live up to it. It said, " You need a savior." The New Testament was the revealing of the savior Jesus Christ. By the way Jesus was never stoned. They wanted to several times but they never did. The Christian faith DOES teach that you can experience the divine individually. Jesus Christ is God and you can have a personal relationship with Him. Jesus NEVER said he was leading others back to themselves to find the Kingdom of God within. He ALWAYS said He was leading others to God the Father to the Kingdom of God that was, "not of this world"

yes, Religion has become nothing more than big business ..

hence the NEED for each indiviual to have an intimate personal relationship with God, to KNOW God in your heart .. there is NO ONE that should try to come between your God, Higher Power or whatever you choose to call that which IS, & You - ones salvation is totally an INDIVIDUAL matter, and there is NO ONE that knows the intent of your heart other than God

Salvation IS an individual matter. It is through the individual of Jesus Christ and no other.
KNOW JESUS,KNOW SALVATION
NO JESUS, NO SALVATION

RELIGION VERSES SPIRITUALITY ??? Its pretty easy to know spirituality is the winner here....

Geez how many wars has religion caused? lots.....

What about spirituality? What? - none? geez that cant be good can it.Religion is all about control and domination oh and lets not forget major brainwashing.I just cant believe in this day and age so many people can be so gullable.
LMFAO!!!

A characteristic of a good parent is that they guide, not dominate.
A characteristic of a good manager is that they guide, not dominate.
A characteristic of a good leader is that they guide, not dominate.
So, there are many points in our lives where we may be subjected to domination, and not just by a religion.
A religion that guides, and not dominates, would be a source of comfort and encouragement. Do you really believe that ALL religions seek to dominate? I have seen some that do so, sure, but I have also seen some that seek to guide rather than control.

Yes I do think "some religions" guide people and if they need that then its good and the religion serves a purpose.I just think its very sad thats all....

Jesus teaches love and forgiveness. Righteousness and holiness. Who can fault that?

Deana I love the picture you have on display - it is beautiful...Where did you get it? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Freespirit, I had that picture emailed to me years ago. I LOVE it! I think it's about one of the most gorgeous ones I've ever seen.

Could you please e mail it to me? I will send you a private message with my e mail address if you can send it to me that would be great.

What an interesting and thought provoking discussion. THANK YOU!

To add my little bit, I believe that one does not need to belong to, or practice a religion in order to be a spiritual person. I know several Christians, Buddhists and Hindus who show a most beautiful spirituality in their lives.

There are people from many religions who are spiritual people, and many who are not. There are many paths, and we each must find the one which enables us to be the best that we can, and to achieve our highest level of awareness. It is a continual upward striving toward higher consciousness. I do not believe that any one path is the only right one.

For me, it is all about love and respect for all life - not just for human life. I see all life as ONE. To become one with all life - to love unconditionally - this is my aim in life. When we have learned to truly love unconditionally, everything else falls into place.

Not all spirituality is good. Evil is also a spirit.

Hi Patience,

Beautifully put! This is also my aim in life. To love unconditionally and hold no judgment against others. Not always easy, for sure, but my desire none-the-less <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So if you hold no judgements what about the evil that men do? would you never think that rape or murder are wrong? Is that too judgemental?

Evil exists in the heart of humanity. To acknowledge that an act is wrong is not what I understand by 'judgement'.

To me, in 'judging' someone, I am presuming to know all the facts, which I do not know and cannot know because no person can know the soul of another.

Certainly anything which harms another is wrong because it is without love.

Its not up to us to judge its up to Gwad and jeezus(sic)

A judgement is a decision of innocence or guilt. God has already judged that people who practice sin are guilty. The Bible says all sinners are already condemned. Like the two thieves on the cross with Jesus. Already condemned and the only difference between Christians and non-christians is Christians are forgiven and covered by the blood covenant of Christ.Our fine has been paid. That fine is spiritual death. As Christians, we just DISCERN between words and actions that God has already judged. It is non-Christians who judge. They judge God. They call Him a liar by denying what He has judged as sin.

No shades of grey Dave? That really precludes compassion in my view. What if we were to look at judgement as an assessment of liability and responsibility instead, which would be kinder and perhaps fairer. I always feel that judgement implies 'blame' and 'blame' is destructive rather than constructive.

best wishes - Jane <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sin involves choice. If you choose sin then who else can possibly be to blame?

This is one of the toughest lessons I have ever had to learn - and I am by no means there yet! But if I could share something that I realised, through reading the books of the Dalai Lama and Thich N. Hanh, who have bot known an immeasurable amount of wrong-doing against them...

Knowing and achieving Universal Compassion, and Unconditional Love in your heart, does not mean that you have to accept everything and leave your guard down. HH the DL has infinite Compassion for the Chinese... But he refuses their invitations to tea.... He once said that to Love unconditionaly did not always mean 'Liking'... you don't have to like someone to love them... And it doesn't mean you have to give them "house-room"... It means simply recognising that their Humanity is absolutely completely identical to your own.
All anyone ever really wants is to be Understood, Appreciated and Loved. And if we could just try to understand that no matter who, and no matter what, everyone is looking for the same thing - peace in their lives and serenity in their hearts - it becomes easier to extend feelings of Love and Compassion towards others.
Difficult when being cut up through Road rage, or when a shop assistant is foul-mouthed, I know. But always true, nevertheless.

That's a wonderful post Alexandra <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's like 'always look for the good in someone, whatever your instinct is' <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would love to be like that - and will practise it more.

Dave - you say sin involves choice. Does that mean that those who are unaware of your definition of sin (which presumably is strictly defined by the Bible?), are necessarily sinning? If I don't know that (very implausibly) murder is wrong, is it a sin to murder? It's more of a philosophical question than anything else - what do you think?

best wishes - Jane <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Alexandra, you have put it beautifully.
Bless you!

Greenspice,
That's a good question. The Bible says that God has written His laws on the hearts of every person. We all know that lying and theft and murder are wrong. It's just something we all feel in our hearts. That's the signature of the Almighty.

Thankyou Alexandra - so very true.

I do believe that the actions of rape and murder are wrong. But if you met a rapist or murderer, and you didn't *know* what they did, how could you judge them? What if a murderer was a loving father and a good husband? How would you judge him?

I believe that judgements are based on what our own egos think and believe...

And egos are known to be wrong.

I strive to be non-judgmental. I didn't say I always was; but I believe it's NOT up to me to judge the goodness or badness of anyone. If I do, I am coming from a place of ego and not unconditional love.

This explains a lot. No matter what religion someone may be, the word of the Divine is already in their heart. That is how they may make the choices to stop making mistakes (sins) and to call Love (Jesus, Christ, Buddha) into their hearts and be reborn.

How wonderful!

Alexendra, this is about the most beautiful thing I've read all night <img src="/images/graemlins/music.gif" alt="" /> Thank you SOOOO much.

Thank you - and thank you all for your kind comments.
The only way I know how to contribute is to be as honest and as loving as I can....
I think we may have a tendency to forget that whomsoever has contributed to these discussions, has a life away from the keyboard - and no matter how much we might choose to open up and engage, we can never know or understand everything about them... What makes them tick - what floats their boat - So we can only respond to what we read...
Given that few of us use personal photos of ourselves as avatars, I cannot know what you all look like....
So I just try to visualise people, sitting infront of their keyboards, tapping away.... But at their shoulders is an enormous existence I know nothing about....A life unfolded and unfolding. Full of ups and downs, full of day to day mundane ordinary events...Just like mine.... but the fact that we're all here, all reading, is another way of recognising the interconnectedness... So even though we may be separated by thousands of miles, we are as close to one another as the letters in the words....The forum is a community. And we all belong.

Deanna,
You are indeed correct on judgement. It kind of goes both ways. For instance, we are not supposed to judge others or judge God. When we say something is right that God says is wrong then we judge God a liar. We do not judge others because we cannot see their hearts. You are correct about that. We discern their behavior as right or wrong based on judgements God has already made about that behavior. Behavior we can see so we must discern between right and wrong behavior, otherwise we could never decide for ourselves what is the right things to do or say.

Religion vs Spirituality...

Brings to mind the idea of conformity vs freedom...

I prefer a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ to being responsible for all the evil and violence in the world. As long as God is in control and has a plan, then I can rest easily knowing that I didn't make this world a trash heap, that satan did and it is all part of God's ultimate plan to show human kind that in Him there is no worry or fear, but without him, it is cold and firghtening beyond all reason.

I think I am a spiritual person by definition. In that I am lead by the Holy Spirit and don't conform to any Human list of who or what i "should" be. I love being accepted for myself just the way i am - the good, the bad and the ugly!

In my walk with Christ i have never felt that i "had to" follow a set of "rules". I have always felt compelled to show the love the Lord has shown to me to others, by not wanting to lie, by not wanting to steal, by not wanting to put anything or anyone beofre Him in my life and my heart. I've always felt that when i was born again, my DNA changed...I am so different than I used to be. Remembering always seems like a movie I watched a long time ago...

So, my conclusion on this topic is that organized religion, while not all bad; with traditions and doctrine set in the foundation set up by Christ (or another spiritual leader); is most often used to control and punish those who tend to think outside the box. Spirituality guides us to question that teaching to find truth for ourselves. For me, that truth was found in the person of Jesus Christ. If not for the hunger in my spirit, I would not have gone looking for truth.

Good response, Jenna...
I would however, discuss the 'Conformity vs Freedom'.... Surely the opposite of conformity is non-conformity, just as the opposite to freedom is confinement.... which does not describe religion to me...
Religion does not expect you to follow blindly, accepting all that is presented as truth, with blind faith, and no questioning, exploration or discernment...
Anyone who restricts themselves to this type of worship would be considered foolish and gullible.
You don't strike me as being that.

Providing you understand and accept that this may well be your Truth, but others cannot accept it as universal, proven and general, and find the requirement of faith in an unseen, unfelt and unwitnessed God,unworkable, then that's fine.

It is a theory, but a noble and virtuous one at that.
I cannot, and would not argue that you are wrong to think the way you do...This is the privilege of being human....
I would however, insist that others accord me the same respect, and do unto me, likewise.

Very well said Alexandra.

Good point Alexandra...

to me, non-conformity IS freedom and I have felt confined by traditional religion before. My freedom is in the acceptance I feel in the Love of the Lord.

It lets me off the hook (so to speak, not to release me from all responsibility) in that I know that I am renewed daily with Him. As opposed to my relationships with people, who use misunderstandings to drive divisions between themselves constantly...

Parents, old friends, spouses, children, co-workers

All relationships that are divided by pride and hurt feelings. With the Lord, I don't have to live by my feelings alone, I have His truth to guide me into a deeper understanding and acceptance of others. It helps me.... and gives me peace.... which to me, is the essence of my spirit.

Seems to me a big to do about nothing. If we have to defend our beliefs, it really makes them inefficient.

Does God go around defending his position ... or is God just going around BEING God.

I believe we should come to the point in all our ways & beliefs to ... BE. It is the only now moment that counts. The now with God is our eternity.

We get it all scrambled in our finite minds of the this's and that's of what we think it should be ... and the fact is it never really changes exactly what is really IS.

The point being, that we should stay active in the now with God, and let the rest of the world go by. We are only accountable for what we speak right now. NOW is the most important point of being. And, in that moment everything is put into its rightful perspective.

Just a thought ...
C.L. Mareydt

Christian= CHRIST like...whether it's a Religion you follow or believe in your own sprituality isn't it all about WHO we are? I don't believe there is any debate in that.

To me, my spirituality is expressed through Jesus Christ and my relationship with Him. For others, it's different. I accept that. For me I see God all around. For others, they seek truth in other ways. Connecting with one another, to me, is most important.

I am confused about how spirituality is defined?

What - in the dictionary,or by individuals?
The dictionary is one thing, and will rarely change the interpretation. With beings, quite another... I doubt any two people woud viewit in exactly the same way.... or even if their view was constant....

By individuals.

Hi everyone.. My name is Linda Paul and I am the new Spirituality Editor. I was the editor for the Alternative Medicine site here a few years ago, so I am not actually a stranger to the workings within Bella. I love it here! This post felt very, very right to me.. and expresses much of what I feel. I would not by any means call myself a religious person, although I am a Unitarian Universalist based Community Minister. I would definately say I am a spiritual person. I don't disagree with anyones right to believe. Beliefs are a personal experience and diversity is what makes the world go round. I find religion and spirituality to be fascinating subjects which are chock full of wisdom and advice. That is why I have the desire to explore all of them, learn from them, and share what I have learned with those who care to listen. Love and Light...

Michelle,
I know you are very excited about being a new Christian. I have too been in that same boat. But believe me the best way to lead people to Jesus is to lead by example. When you are around people be nice and calm about your beliefs. Jesus did not shout at people and try to change their minds, he just sat with them and talked to them and made them feel love. He went into places where most people would not go to show others love. We are God's respresentatives on earth. So when people look at us they can tell whether we are Christians or not. God does not want us to be prefect but he wants us to be striving to get there. I have been around some people that I just said,"I wonder what they have?" I would love to have the peace and calmness that person has. And come to find out they had a peace that only Jesus can give. I have been getting closer to Jesus for the last 6 months:reading my Bible and other books by a lot of writers. I think it has a lot to do with how we see others,how we really feel about ourselves. We cannot give away what we don't have. We have to love ourselves first before we can care about others.Prayer is for every day not just when we are in trouble and need help. We are to pray each and every day in order to get closer to God. I have felt a closer relationship with Jesus and I find a comfort talking with him and praying every day.Some Churches teach on the Laws of the Bible. This is a very limited way to look at the Bible. Somewhere in the Bible it says the Laws will limit us in our relationship with God. There is so much more to a relationship with Jesus than just the Laws of the Bible.The Bible has examples of burnt offerings. We do not do that today.I don't believe in taking out what you believe from the Bible and just believing that but the Bible was written a long time ago. Like I said before, there is so much more to having a close relationship with Jesus than just Laws. Jesus wants us to view people in a loving and caring way. He wants us to be quick to forgive and not quick to anger.If we act like this around our friends and family I am sure they will notice that we have changed. One of the positive benefits of becoming gentler is a more relaxed life style. You will become more adaptable, more able to roll with the punches.First Peter 3:15 says," Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".The manner in which you share the gospel can determine how willling a person is to listen to you.

janD - I say this with the utmost reverence and respect - this is exactly the message the Buddha expounded also. To lead by example, and not to attempt to convert others to your way of thinking only. Jesus, in Buddhism, is a much respected and venerated Boddhisattva. One who puts the well-being and salvation (Enlightenment) of others, before their own...

Thre is some conjecture that suggests that in the silent years between his 12th year and his 30th, Christ actally travelled and learnt of other Spiritual philosophies and religions. His words of Unconditional Love and Universal Compassion seem very 'Buddhist', and ring well in the ears of those such as I....




(Edit note: added spaces between words - so much easier to read, now!)

JanD,
I think you'd be shocked at some of the things Jesus did. Jesus yelled at people. He screamed and called them hypocrites and broods of vipers. He told some people they would die in their sins and go to hell. He told some their father was the devil. He called some people liars. He knocked down some soldiers with the sound of His Word in the Garden of Gethsename. He made a whip of ropes and hit people with it and drove them out of the synagogue, twice. He told His apostles that one of them was a devil. He called some people evil. He called pagans "heathens" Jesus was telling the truth. Sometimes gentle, sometimes not.

Well lovelove, I guess we all have our good days and our bad days.. Jesus was no exception..

Love and Light...

This thread is no longer open to new posts, it got a little too crazy.

We have a new thread going on the same topic that you are welcome to come join, as long as everyone is respectful of one another.

Thanks!