BellaOnline Forums Food and Wine Low Carb How do we know about the potency of vitamins?

hi lisa,
i have never seen flax oil in a tablet form. that is not to say that it does not exist. but if it does, i certainly would not take it. as you probably know, omega3 fatty acids are even more likely to become rancid than other fats. what they would have to do to the oil to place it in a tablet, or any hard form, i would not trust. any health food store that i have seen, always carries flax and fish oil in the frig, and the bottle of capsules should also be refrigerated, once open.

i was assuming that the poster was referring to the capsules with flax oil in it. if at all possible, i would suggest that people take the oil without capsules. first, it is far cheaper. secondly, it does not change the taste much, unless they are taking fish oil. but flax, safflower, and most of the other nut and seed oils have fairly mild tastes, and can be mixed very easily in many foods.

i have had tests with my friends in making protein drinks, one with oil and the other without. no one could pick out the 2 tablespoons of oil in a 32 ounce drink.

About those vitamins and minerals...

It's not quite that simple. Vitamins and mineral needs vary daily, maybe even hourly and are influenced by age, gender, weight, stress level, environmental pollutants encountered, how much junk food you eat, if you're dieting, if you drink soft drinks, if you eat too much protein, where you live, if you drink soft water, if you have diarrhea, if you take certain prescribed or OTC medicines or drugs, if you take too much calcium, if you take antacids, if you're depressed, if you eat organic food, where your meat or grains come from, if you've been exposed to lead or phytate or fast foods or drink alcohol, if you're pregnant or breast feeding, if you take birth control pills, any sub-clinical vitamin or mineral deficiencies you might have, if you're anemic or diabetic or have any other chronic or acute condition, how much you're perspiring, the condition of your digestive tract and circulatory system, the age of the supplements, the additives in the supplements, if you've had recent surgery or chemotherapy or radiation, and more...

Additionally, taking individual vitamins or minerals to correct a deficiency in one vitamin or mineral or treat a condition can be ineffective or even dangerous and that's why a balanced vitamin and mineral preparation should be taken in addition to any single supplement. For example, in order for all of the B-vitamins to be assimilated, you need manganese, calcium, vitamins C and E, potassium, vitamin A, and folic acid (if it's not in your B-complex). Likewise, to assimilate vitamin E, you need essential fatty acids, manganese, selenium, vitamin A, vitamin B1, inositol and vitamin C. I could go on, but you get the picture.

This is why it's always better to eat your vitamins and minerals every day by eating lots of fruits and vegetables, olive oil, wheat germ, and molasses, and a handful of seeds or nuts, and no more than about 6 ounces of protein (preferably from non-animal sources, except eggs), for starters.

That is definitely a nice thought and I definitely promote to people that they avoid processed foods, eat fresh, healthy foods, eat a lot of olive oil and vegetables. However I really think you're not quite honest if you think that a person could get EVERY vitamin and mineral they need EVERY day at the proper amounts through diet!!

The USDA has the RDA chart here -

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/dga/rda.pdf

and as we know, that chart is the BARE minimums to stay healthy, never mind to actually be in great health. Going on the line for Females 25-50 we need every day:

800ug vitamin A
8ug vitamin e
65mg vitamin k
60mg vitamin c
1.1mg thiamin
1.3mg riboflavin
15mg niacin
1.6ug vitamin b6
180ug vitamin folate
2.0ug vitamin b12
15mg iron
12mg zinc
150ug iodine
55ug selenium
5ug vitamin D
1000mg calcium
700mg phosphorus
320mg magnesium
3.1mg flouride

I don't even see potassium on that chart which is 3.5g.

So again that is the BARE minimum. Many people who write me say they simply cannot afford to eat vegetables more than once a day, if they can even afford that! The Parade in the Sunday Paper just ran a huge article series on how a huge proportion of families pretty much never eat vegetables because they are too expensive.

Even if you were rich enough to afford vegetables. I challenge you to think up a diet that includes all of these vitamins that the average person would consider eating every single day for the rest of their life.

I know it's a nice thought to get everything fresh. And we really try as much as we can. But I have read many reports that say it is simply impossible to do unless you are wealthy and able to afford buying a wide variety of foods and have the taste buds to enjoy eating them. I have to agree with them.

This could be a challenge to throw out to the group. Even assuming that all you were trying to do is get these minimal RDA values into you - and not the other vitamins we all know are critical - can someone do this for a week and post their menu and how much it cost?

Zinc

OK, lets start with Zinc. How are you going to get that if you're avoiding meat? You need 12mg zinc every single day. That's a bare minimum.

Blackberries = .4mg/cup. You'd eat 30 cups.
Kiwi = .3mg/cup. This time it's 40 cups.

The best source is calf liver - 4oz is 90% of your RDA. I dare you to find me many people that will eat 4oz calf liver every day (or who could afford to). 4oz of beef tenderloin is only half your RDA again, you'd have to eat 2 a day, every day.

Mushrooms, you say? Sure, gives 13% RDA for 5oz Crimini Mushrooms serving. So you'd have to eat 7 servings every day (35oz) to get 91% of your RDA.

The Zinc chart I'm reviewing is here -

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=115

Thiamin

OK let's try Thiamin next, I'm taking vitamins at random here. You need 1.1mg of Thiamin every day. That site I found is pretty cool so here is their Thiamin chart -

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=100

OK, I could eat yellowfin tuna (which I love) every day for 52% of my daily Thiamin intake. So I'd have to eat 8oz a day (2 servings). As much as I love it, I think I'd really get sick of that after a while and would also be broke.

Sunflower seeds are at 75% but to be honest I'm really not fond of sunflower seeds, and to force myself to eat them daily doesn't sound very fun to me. Plus I'd still have 25% to cover even if I did.

What else can I eat ... the next biggest % food is black boiled beans at 38%. So I'd have to eat 3 servings of those every day. I don't MIND beans, but I also don't LOVE beans. They just aren't very tasty to me, they're rather bland. So I really can't see myself eating 3 servings of black beans every day, or even 1 1/2 servings of black beans and 1 serving of tuna. There's no combination of those foods that will keep me happy for more than say a few days.

Other foods are down in the 1/3 RDA range or less so they make it impossible to do meal planning, with all the other nutrients I still have to get into me as well.

Iron

OK I'll do Iron next and then I'll stop because I have a bunch of work backlogged, but I'll definitely write these up into articles. This is fascinating. Iron is of course critical for women in their menstruating years.

The US RDA is 15mg iron every day. Once again, the cool nutrition site on iron:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=70

OK the most bang for the buck with iron is soybeans (1.5 servings a day) or raw tofu (2.5 servings a day). I have to say here that I am a HUGE fan of the Japanese culture so I've done tons and tons of research on Japanese history, Japanese foods, etc. And while I've always loved soy products as a part of that, I've also found a lot of BAD things about soy. The Japanese eat soy in small amounts. We in the west went whole hog on it for *political* reasons, if you read up on the history of soy, and it is a lucrative moneymaker for our farmers.

Anyway I wrote on it here -

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art14546.asp

Soy has been linked with alzheimer's because of its zinc interference, and it also interferes with the thyroid and immune system.

Soy is one of those "it seems cool because of its Asian 'long life' roots" things - but I really feel strongly it has been corrupted in the Western diet because of the financial incentive to our farmers. A full 60% of food on store shelves now contains soy!! There are many books out there that document the entire soy issue, so if we really want to get into that discussion, that would be a good way to start.

But in any case, without overdosing on soy, you have problems getting iron. And even if you do, quoting my own article, "a study done in 2001 shows that only 27% or so of the iron in soybeans is actually absorbed. Previous studies put the absorption amount as low as 2%. Both agree that women not eating meat should take vitamins to ensure adequate iron intake."

Gee Lisa,

I meant eating better is a first step that I think most nutritionists support. The ones I know always say, don't just take a vitamin or mineral tablet to try to make up for not eating right, and I'm sure you agree with that, don't you?

I do think we can get most of the vitamins and minerals without taking them in pill form, except maybe selenium and calcium, if we're totally healthy, although I agree that you really do have to work at it. And it gets harder with aging as we don't produce as many digestive enzymes as we used to. I take some vitamins and always a mineral because of the heat where I live and that I'm losing both through perspiration, but I do try to eat right, too.

About the money issue. If we all ate more fruits and veggies and less meat, it would cost less and we'd be healthier, have less cancer, heart disease, gallstones, etc., and have to take fewer medicines, which often have side effects that can interfere with absorbing nutrients. I've also had some clients who said they couldn't afford to "eat right," but when we discussed the issue, it came out that they splurge on expensive chocolates, go out to eat 4-5 times a week, and spend money on other things that maybe, if they chose to, could be invested in their health by eating healthier foods. That would mean fewer visits to the doctor and fewer drugs to take. Like everything else, it's a choice.

About the iron issue. The best way I've found to get iron is to cook in iron pots. (This is a non-heme [animal product] form, which is healthier.) Kidney beans, molasses, eggs and whole grain breads and cereals also are good sources of iron. Could you stand to eat them, Lisa?

Hey Lisa,

Forgot to mention the soy/Alzheimer's comment. Don't know where you got the information about that link, but the latest on that topic shows soy protects vs. Alzheimer's, while it is high fat diet that is linked with AD.

Epidemiol Prev. 2002 May-Jun;26(3):107-15.
[Western diet and Alzheimer's disease]

Alzheimer Disease, characterised by a global impairment of cognitive functions, is more and more common in Western societies, both because of longer life expectancy and, probably, because of increasing incidence. Several hints suggest that this degenerative disease is linked to western diet, characterised by excessive dietary intake of sugar, refined carbohydrates (with high glycaemic index), and animal product (with high content of saturated fats), and decreased intake of unrefined seeds--cereals, legumes, and oleaginous seeds--and other vegetables (with high content of fibres, vitamins, polyphenols and other antioxidant substances, phytoestrogens) and, in several populations, of sea food (rich in n-3 fatty acids)... AD, therefore, could theoretically be prevented (or delayed) by relatively simple dietary measures aimed at increasing insulin sensitivity (trough reduction of refined sugars and saturated fats from meat and dairy products), the ratio between n-3 and n-6 fatty acids (e.g. from fish and respectively seed oils), antioxidant vitamins, folic acid, vitamin B6, phytoestrogens (vegetables, whole cereals, and legumes, including soy products), vitamin B12 (bivalve molluscs, liver), and Cr, K, Mg, and Si salts.

Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Jan 15;36(2):180-8. Related Articles, Links

Genistein, the most active molecule of soy isoflavones, protects diverse kinds of cells from damage caused by a variety of toxic stimuli. Our results further show...the neuroprotective effect of genistein is mediated mainly by its antioxidative properties. Our data suggest that genistein attenuates neuronal apoptosis induced by Abeta25-35 via various mechanisms.

If you want to learn more, go to www.pubmed.com and type in soy and Alzheimer's at the top of the page for the latest research findings.

Best,

Carolyn

Certainly every low carb diet actively promotes eating healthy, fresh foods. Every low carb diet I've studied rails against the huge amounts of processed foods we modern people eat. So I think you'll find any true low carber is actively eating fresh food. In fact most low carbers eat far more fresh food than their carb-rich compatriots. The problem as you saw from the above posts is that even eating all that fresh food, you simply cannot get adequate nutrition from it. You *have* to take multivitamins.

I disagree that it is possible to get 100% of all your RDA, every day, from diet. I eat fresh, healthy foods daily. I simply can't get 100% of all RDA daily. I gave explicit examples of vitamin problems above. Do you truly get 100% of your zinc, iron and thiamin daily? Those were the 3 examples I randomly pulled. Please list what you ate the last week, for example, and we can see! I honestly and truly think it is not possible.

I'll address the afford-to-eat-greens issue separately <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ummmmm you're kidding I think, right? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Eggs are THE most important part of any low carb diet pretty much!! We low carbers eat eggs 24 hours a day <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> On the other hand, I'm not sure that molasses, i.e. liquid sugar, is very healthy for anybody. I'm from the Boston area - believe me, I know molasses <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's 53 calories per Tablespoon, never mind the carbs.

Sure, cooking in iron pots is fine, but I get iron in my diet and vitamins, and iron pots are a royal pain to care for. I used to have a set. We have a set of allclad pots now and I am very happy with them <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So if someone who is anemic would rather pay for a set of iron pots than eat iron rich food, sure, they can. That's just not my choice.

I have to disagree with this 100%. I have been studying this for a while now and there are literally entire sections of our country where people can NOT afford to eat vegetables. Their local markets do not carry them. They have no cars to get to distant markets. They can't afford meat either!! They can only afford potatoes and mac & cheese.

I think it's easy to think about the top elite of the US and think we are "normal", but the vast majority of humans on our planet don't live like we do. Anybody going out to eat 4 or 5 times a week is probably in the top 1% of all human life on earth.

Almost 35 million people in the US alone were below the poverty line. That is 12% of our population. That means a single person took in only $9k over the entire year. I hear from many people who only have $15/week or less to buy groceries with. These people can NOT afford to spend money on vegetables. They buy potatoes because they're cheap, macaroni and cheese because it's on sale, and that's about it. A "splurge" on a cheap bottle of multivitamins lasts 90 days - but a "splurge" on a vegetable lasts just one.

Here's a recent article by CNN on the topic -

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/diet.fitness/03/04/obesity.paradox.ap/index.html

"Although being overweight is usually associated with eating too much rather than with hunger, a growing body of research is showing that they people who have gained the most weight in the last decade tend to have the lowest incomes, and often go without the kind of food or the amount they need. "