BellaOnline Forums Religion and Spirituality New Age The question of the Devil & Hell

I wrote the following the other day, trying to find the answers for those many questions in my head. I would welcome anyone's views on this.

The question of the Devil & Hell� 30th January 2004


I have often considered the idea of whether or not there is such a being called the Devil.

I don�t know, is the honest answer. Yet I have an understanding of the concept of light and darkness and wonder if, without the one, we know the other?

If indeed God is light, love and all that is good, would we be able to comprehend this constant personification, without also finding a constant personification for the opposite of God?

Whether the Devil is merely an object of human mythology, or whether there be any truth in his existence, can the Devil have any power over us, other than the power that we apportion to him? And if this is so, who would be responsible for which direction we take, whether our path be lit with light or shadowed with darkness?

I believe there is a purpose, a design. However, I cannot bypass the thought that perhaps the Devil is a human scapegoat for our failings. Yet in order for us to acknowledge our failings, we would first have to acknowledge the difference between, what we believe is Godly and what is not of God. How can we do this if we do not have an opposite from which we can form a basis of comparison? Can one know themselves as being tall if they have not also met someone who is short? Can we know love without also knowing fear/hate? Or at least have a comparison of love?

If we did not fail and then also, in the same breath, be granted forgiveness and the ability to start anew, with the knowledge attained from that failure, would we take away from God the ability to forgive? Would we know God as a forgiving God if we did not require forgiveness?

If the devil did not represent all that is evil would God be understood as all that is good?

Does the devil provide us with the ability to see God�s true nature?

Although I raise the question as to whether the Devil maybe by design, for the purpose of our understanding of God, is there any truth in the Devil�s existence?

My readings so far have left me unclear on this subject. The original Hebrew meaning of the satan means adversary, something that obstructs you from God. Yet the original Hebrew meaning of serpent means to shine/to glow.

It seems that the heavens were created prior to the Garden of Eden, or even before the dry lands were laid on earth. That a Heaven and a Heaven of heavens, with its host were created. A Heaven and a Heaven of Heavens? Would these host have been the angels? Perhaps the morning stars? Something that shines/glows?

Does it imply in Ezekiel that this fallen angel was in the Garden of Eden before his fall from heaven? It states that 'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God�. �King of Tyre� was in the garden and that he was the �seal of perfection�. Does this mean that Satan was in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve before he fell?

If indeed this angel (Lucifer) was the seal of perfection, like no other, then who caused him to sin? He could not lay blame on satan, as there was no such being called satan to tempt him, therefore he could not blame anyone other than himself for the thoughts that he held. This would imply that evil was born from perfection, from within the most perfect and wise. I often wonder of there is a lesson to be learnt here, whether this story speaks of the ease in which we can all go from one state of being to another, through the power of our thoughts. I often wonder how evil entered the world if all that God created was good, perfect, wise. Evil it seems was born within the most perfect, no scapegoat here, there is none but thyself to blame or cast responsibility for the choices and actions made.

It is suggested that, during Lucifer�s time in the Garden of Eden, he devised a plan to prove to God that human�s were not capable of ruling the earth and that the task should be assigned to him. This is either a very clever mythological story or a true account of what happened in the beginning, to bring about the fall of man, original sin as it seems. Or would that have been original choice? It�s difficult to decipher. What came first? The choice or the sin?

The consequences would have me presume that it would not have been original choice, especially if choice is based on free will. How can one have free will yet in the same respect, be punished for that which he free will has chosen to do?

However, I cannot ignore the fact that God had laid down the consequences of this free choice/will by way of warning, advising that an act of eating from the tree of knowledge of both good and evil would bring about death, albeit a spiritual death and separation from God.

Therefore, I wonder if our purpose is to bring ourselves back to where it all began, to find within ourselves that nature that God intended Adam and Eve to have and whether each temptation that we face, acts as a representation of original sin/choice? Could it be that within each choice we make, based upon our free will, that we almost become like the first Adam and Eve, reenacting their very first temptation?

If God is omnipotent, and sees all things, knows all our thoughts, would God not have known of satan�s impending plan? and likewise, would God not have been aware of this human weakness? Surely God can see into the future, yet it may seem that God sat back and watched as the story unfolded, the consequence of which would affect all of mankind. This whole story raises many questions in my mind.

If indeed Lucifer was cast out of heaven, why was the Devil/satan allowed to roam the earth freely? Why is the devil allowed to continue to tempt man away from God? And if indeed man is then punishable for his sins, and ultimately sent to the fires of hell for eternity with the devil himself, why did God not send the devil to such a place before he was/is allowed to tempt any more souls and drag them down with his fall? I wonder why, if love heals all, satan was not forgiven and healed and why Adam and Eve were not given a chance to learn from their mistake. I wonder whether, if Adam and Eve had not been tempted, would their offspring have been tempted? and if the outcome would have been the same? Was mankind�s plight inevitable?

I question the situation with the Devil in the book of Job, not really understating the conversation that God has with the Devil and why God allows the Devil to harm Job, a righteous man. I question why it was the spirit that sent Jesus forth to be tested, what does that mean?

I do not understand when Jesus states that the Devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, yet we are told that the Devil was a fallen angel called Lucifer. Could it be that this beginning that Jesus mentions refers to the beginning of God�s creation of our earth?, if this is the case, it still beacons the question as to whether the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning if indeed in the beginning he was an angel still in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. His fall happened during his time in the garden when he allowed his jealousy to consume him. What beginning does this then refer to?

I question, why the name Lucifer appears but once in the Bible, with reference to the fall of the King of Babylon and if indeed the OT was written in Hebrew and Greek, why is Lucifer a Latin name? Knowing that the name Lucifer means morning star, would this have any connection with the meaning of serpent, shine/glow?

I wonder why it states in Isaiah 45:7. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil�.

Yet upon reading Job, I also acknowledge that through his trials, Job remained true to God with faith, if anything, would these trials not have given Job�s faith the ability to grow? .. Surely Job understood this and remained truthful to God. Herein lies the design for me.

I have questions with regard to a place called hell. I wonder whether hell is a state of being, rather than a place. Likewise whether heaven is a state of being. My readings so far have told me that Jesus has taught that heaven can be found within, can hell also be found/created within?

If I cast my mind back to the beginning, before anything was created, we are taught that God existed and that God was all that there Is, yet would there have been an all that God is not?

If indeed God is all that there is, and I confine God (for the purpose if my understanding) to an artist�s plain canvas, would it be possible for God to create that which He is not, if all that Is, is God? Was God�s creation of our world, this universe, our earth, every living creature, painted on the canvas of all that Is? If this is the case, where is hell�s existence? Can the fires of hell exist outside of all that Is?

In the realm of the ultimate/absolute, are opposites necessary to find truth, or is truth that which it is, without an opposite? Does evil exist in heaven? It seems that it did, as Lucifer was expelled from heaven along with the many other angels that fell with him.

Therefore, are we free beings, with freewill, even if we go the heaven, with the ability to still have the option to do ungodly things or sin? Or is heaven a place where love is a constant without a need for an opposite without a trace of evil? I often wonder what this place called heaven would be like upon final judgment, for those who are chosen go to there for eternity. Would free will still exist in heaven and would there be a further possibility of someone, albeit another angel, to bear thoughts of evil as the first fallen angel did? How can we be so sure that perfection will not again bring about evil? Lucifer did not have a satan being or devil to blame for his sin, that sin was born out of perfection. Can there be any guarantee that this would never happen again?

Take away the artist painting and what do you have? That which you had in the beginning, all that Is, God. Take away what may seem as the illusion of life, the envelope in which we live and indeed the theology on which we base our understanding of God and we are left with God. Yet we are spirit beings, within the physical body, yet take away that physical body, as that is also a part of painting upon the artist�s canvas, what then happens to our spirit? Without the illusion, are we reunited with all that Is? Made up of the same spiritual stuff as all that Is? Are we a part of all that Is and not a part of what all that Is, is not? Is the painting merely a way for all the Is, to understand, what all that Is, is? Can love know love without the experience of love?

Is the Devil and Hell merely a part of the painting on the artist�s canvas?

Can Hell or indeed the Devil exist if God is all that Is?

In many pagan faiths, there isn't a concept of heaven or hell.

In Wicca, there is the Threefold Law, which is summarized as the idea that what sort of energy and actions you take in the world will come back to you threefold.

This makes each person accountable for their actions. A more modern parlance might be "getting your comeuppance."

It makes an interesting viewpoint when you look at your own actions and thoughts using this concept.

Boy, you ask some tough questions, Goosie! I'd be here for days if I tried to address them all (especially since I've asked many of the same questions myself, especially coming from a Christian background!)

I remember as a child that I used to get very angry at God. The Bible said hell wasn't made for man, yet man ends up there? If God is omniscient, you mean to tell me he couldn't tell humanity would screw up? If so, then how could hell NOT be for humans if he knew we'd end up there? I also remember hearing a voice that said "Janet, someday you will understand. Be patient." This scenario repeated itself over and over.

And what of salvation? Christian doctrine teaches that there is only ONE way to salvation: belief in Jesus. But what of unborn babies? Well, they say, their innocence gives them a free pass. Way #2 has just been introduced. (Innocence). And what of tribes that never hear the Gospel? Well, they say, God will judge them on their conscience. Way #3 has now been made. (Conscience). I think even most Christians can't stomach the thought of babies going to hell, so they make another "way". I guess it's OK if teens and adults go there, though...

If man was made frail and imperfect, than how can he be judged and sentenced as "guilty"? The Bible says that no person can come to God except the Spirit draw them. Then comes the doctrine of "predestination". Some are predestined to hell...some for heaven.

After having an unexpected paradigm shift as a result of hearing a sermon from a visiting minister, and a result of listening to my heart/intuition and looking at the original Greek, it was then that I finally "understsood".

If you've got the time and inclination, you may want to look at the Savior of the World series by J. Preston Eby. [url=BellaOnline ALERT: For anti-spam reasons, we restrict the number of URLs allowed in a given post. You have exceeded our maximum number of URLs.

Thank you both so much for taking the time to read this and also taking the time to share your thoughts and views.

I truly believe that I alone will fidnt he answers that I need, yet I also believe that those that come to me with their thoughts come to me with a message that will help me in unravelling the answers. Therefore I will explore both thought processes.

Janet, alot of debth in your post and thought. That is so very appreciated. I will certainly look into the further reading that you have suggested, yet I would ask one further question, if indeed we are One, which I believe we are, how can one exist if some go to heaven and some go to hell?

Sometimes I do believe your mind needs to just sit still long enough to receive the answers from within.

Once again, thank you both so very much.

Lucy

You're very welcome, Lucy. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I know you will find the answers you're looking for, because, like Dorothy, "it was inside all the time."

I'm a "New Ager" much more than I'm a "Christian" (at least, in a traditional sense)--so I believe that all is definitely One. I also believe that Heaven and Hell are likely states of mind/being. Heaven=communion with God; realizing we are One in Him/Her and One with God. Hell is separation from God. We can never be truly separated, but our ego, fear, mind (whatever you want to call it) gives the illusion of separateness.

What happens after we die? I can't presume to know. I've been exploring the possibilty of reincarnation. But to be honest, what happens after death doesn't really concern me. I know that I will return to whence I came {the arms of God, a higher vibrational plane, pure love without fear, whatever you want to call it), and that all will be well. All is well now, if only I believe.

If you haven't already, you may want to take a gander at Conversations With God from Neale Donald Walsch. You could probably find it at your local library.


Conversations With God: An Uncommon Dialogue

I did a review of Walsch's book for children The Little Soul and the Sun: A Children�s Parable Adapted From Conversations With God which overviews one of the main ideas of the book...that we are, indeed, One.

Walsch says that God fractured Him/Herself in order to experience itself in all its glory. Mind blowing book. I really enjoyed it.

I truly believe that stillness is one of our greatest assets in understanding the why's and how's of Being. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Janet you lil gem you,

Not only have I read conversations with God but I have read the entire trilogy and the follow on books, about communion and freiendship and yes, they really are mindblowing. I can relate 100% to what I read in them and if anything, this aligns with my own truth.

At the moment I am just reading The celestine Prohesy and have read The Prophet, both fo which are fascinating. I am born into the Greek Orthodox religion and there is a wealth of reading and research here also, which is what I am doing at the moment. I feelt hat in order to go forward, we sometimes need to go back.

I'm find this all so very interesting and have a huge hunger to read, learn and share.

Thank you for sharing and taking the time to discuss these issues.

Lucy

PS - the story of the little soul ... i tell it all the time, thought it was just fantastic .. wonderful way of explaining the why's.

You're most welcome, Lucy! :love:

And guess what? I just bought The Prophet last week and am reading it now! I've read Celestine, and have Celestine Vision and the Tenth Insight, but haven't read those yet.

I totally agree and this is why I pointed you to some Kingdom Theology within Christianity. This has certainly been true for me. I tend to go out and explore and experience, but time after time, I go back to the "home base" of the Bible. However, my understanding of it (and application) is much different. But Jesus and all that is a comfort and light to me. I don't "get" that with other spiritual teachers or avatars.

Have you read Marianne Williamson's Everyday Grace? Good stuff. What about the Joshua series by Joseph Girzone? That kind of stuff really hits home for me and lights my fire!

I, too, hunger for things of the spirit and to know God more. I love expanding my perspectives in this realm, so I'm glad you're here doing the same, Lucy! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Goosie and fellow Members

The DEVIL and HELL do indeed exist - HELL is this world we live on, where all pain and suffering takes place. The DEVIL is the GREED we all have, for materials things.

HEAVEN is our intended destiny, when our bodies die, where there is NO pain OR suffering.

God designed us to be GREEDY but also gave Moses the "TEN COMMANDMENTS" to help us all try to control our greed.

My philosophy - is to consider others before seeking my EAGER DESIRES - by doing so, I control the way my goals are achieved, which in turn controls my GREED [THE DEVIL}.

The words HELL and DEVIL - represent the power that dwells within this world and as we travel through life, we are aware that the DEVIL is a destructive force, which is all around us and ready to strike at any moment.

How do I know this world is HELL Because, where else would we expect the DEVIL to dwell?

Warm regards Joseph.

However all your words come out as an analogy and personal opinion, though you are sounding as if what you say is the absolute

Perhaps the Devil is only but a thought form, and just as Goosie had said, it could be a scapegoat for the failures.

What is there to say we are not god ourselves? only but a few words told by people who believe it not.

After all, we are the ones who make our choices (whether it be conscious or sub conscious), hence we are the ones who control reality as does God.

I think we carry heaven and hell within ourselves as states of mind. With the choices we make, we choose which state of mind to live in and to create around ourselves.

I researched the historical and biblical origins of the concept of Satan for a paper I did once in a class that was about Milton's "Paradise Lost." Like Goosie said the word satan originally meant simply "adversary" with no connotation of evil attached to it at all. It was fascinating to learn about how that evolved into the current concept of Satan and the ultimate source of evil.

I don't believe the devil is real. I think it's our own darkness and evil (what Jung called the Shadow, Freud called the Id) projected onto this idea of Satan, like a scapegoat. It allows us to distance ourselves from and disown all the dark things in ourselves that we fear to face. I guess by the same token God could be seen as a scapegoat for the good stuff in ourselves. Sometimes we're as fearful about owning that stuff as we are the bad stuff. IMHO all of us have both within us, which is why I see heaven and hell as psychological states within and not geographical places without.

Interesting topic! Heather