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some real beautiful posts full of hope and inspiration and I can especially relate to your post Lisa.
This particular post scared me a little:
They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears let him hear." Matt 13:37-43
And yes I know it is written, yet it's sad isn't it. That anyone will find themselves in this place. This is still something that I struggle with. Perhpas one day i may come to terms with it, perhaps not.
Still wishing we can all make it to heaven, or at least that we can all find heaven within us all.
Thank you all for your kind posts. You have given me much food for thought.
Lucy
When the Student is ready ... The Teacher Will appear
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BellaOnline Editor Wolf
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BellaOnline Editor Wolf
Joined: Apr 2002
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Susan's post reminded me of this story of when a friend of mine died of cancer in his mid forties.
He had two college aged children. At the end he was drifting in and out. They came in to see him the last time he woke up and he told them. "I've just been to the most beautiful place and I can't wait to go back there." He died right after that. It still brings tears to my eyes to think of how he got to reassure his children before he died.
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Zebra
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Zebra
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Hi all,
I didn't write the litany of "anti-hell" statements, but as a former minister in that tradition (as well as being brought up in it) I can say that a lot of "hell-fire brimstone" preaching is exactly that, and is used to manipulate people into salvation, "going to the altar", conversion--whatever you want to call it.
I'm passionate about the subject because of the damage that it had caused me growing up, especially with my relationship to God, and how much this teaching affects others negatively, too. So many want to experience joy, peace and all those things we associate with heaven, but they can't get past the idea of punishment and retribution from God, which leads to guilt, fear, and ultimately, sadness or worse. It's called "cognitive dissonance".
Just some thoughts...
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I know what your talking about Janet. No one wants to be told that they are wrong. Especially someone who is dead set in their ways and CAN'T accept that something their doing goes against the teachings of God. But that's the way Jesus said it. He said that (in a nut shell) that not all people will go to heaven. He said that (again, in a nutshell) that there will be many who preach a different gospel than the one he preached and that they profess to know Him but He will respond to them in the last days that He never knew them. It's easy to get caught up and impressed with our own intelligence. It's easy to state that we have been educated and believe that WE, not God, have all the answers. That is the sin of the world...pride...and we all have a hard time overcoming it. But, in the end, we will all have to account for our lives...only mine will be filtered throught the blood of Christ. I'd rather take a stand behind Jesus than risk being eternally wrong standing alone before God claiming I know more than His Son.
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Zebra
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Zebra
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Hello Jenna,
Again, talking about what Jesus, or anyone in the Bible says, is taking an English interpretation at face value--one that is far removed from the culture of the day. Culture matters. For example, knowing that Gehenna was a garbage dump affects the meaning of Gehenna, as do aion, the word for "eternity" only meaning "age" or limited time.
Jesus talked about entering the Kingdom, and I absolutely agree that not all will enter the Kingdom. It must be entered as a child...and it's not "eat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." I believe that the Kingdom can be experienced now and entered into now ("now is the day of salvation"), and one can choose if they want to live in a personal hell or heaven (Kingdom).
However, my understanding of those terms will be different than those of a traditional, literalist view of the Bible. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It's not about being wrong as much as the doctrine never jived with my spirit, even as a child. God cannot be love and torment his children. If an Earthly parent did that, we'd call them sick.
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BellaOnline Editor Highest Posting Power Known to Humanity
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BellaOnline Editor Highest Posting Power Known to Humanity
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I agree with Janet here that what we are discussing is an *English language Bible* which is just about 2,000 years removed from its initial creation. So not only is the language quite different, the culture is quite different.
Look at Shakespeare. That was only 400 years ago and it was in English. Even so there are many debates over just what a phrase would have "meant" to the natives of England at that time.
So now we're talking about 5 times as long, and back to a world that was vastly different from ours, with a language that has changed vastly over time. Yes, we have scholars who study it. But it is a really, really complex thing to try to learn about a culture just from the bits it left behind. We probably get 75% right. But that still leaves 25% of it as being questionable or outright wrong.
Also, people didn't have tape recorders back then, and paper was expensive. So as much as his apostoles adored him and wanted to carry his word exactly as is to all corners of the globe, they were after all only human. Even their very best efforts to be accurate might end up with mistakes in exact wording.
I think this is a great topic to debate! But I think relying on "the Bible must be 100% right" isn't really a good foundation, because we honestly don't know for sure WHAT the Bible said at this point. All we know is what the scholars we have right now THINK it said. And yes, the scholars we have now are WAY better than the scholars were back in 1600!! So a made-today translation would be far more accurate than the King James version. But I bet if we looked forward another 200 years, with all the findings and research done in that time, and compared their "literal translation" to ours, that we'd find some differences ... maybe big ones.
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Zebra
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Zebra
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I agree, Lisa.
There are whole disciplies within theology, including exegesis and hermeneutics. Interestingly, the flavor of each scholar's interpretation is usually in line with presuppositions that are made based on their personal persuasions. For example, if you're an Arminian, you'll interpret the Bible through the lens of "you can lose your salvation" but if you're a Calvinist scholar, you'll interpret scriptures through the lens of "no one can lose their salvation, but some are handpicked (destined) to go to hell or heaven before they are born."
And that's only 2 persuasions! You have dispensationalists which interpret the Bible as dispensations, literalists which take most or all of the Bible literally, and so on. Quite frankly, many denominations pick and choose which scriptures to take symbolically and which to take literally. If it serves their purposes, they'll pick literal. (Like hell, which will scare the hell out of people and thus make them easier to control.) However, Jesus also said "If your eye offends you, gouge it out." but how many Christians take that literally!
Also regarding translations is word for word literal translations versus thought for thought translations. For example, the KJV, NKJ, and RSV are what's known as literal, word for word translations. This is problematic for many reasons. Idioms is the big one. For example, in America, we know the phrase "break a leg". This is a phrase that is used before a theatrical peformance that means "good luck". Imagine translating that word for word into another language! They would wonder why someone would be so mean!
Translations such as NIV are thought for thought. Take the above example. Instead of translating the phrase word for word, they'd translate it "good luck". The original meaning is still conveyed, although the exact word usage has been lost.
Then, of course, you have the fact that what is known as the Protestant canon was actually voted upon. The Gnostic Gospels, apocryphal books, etc. was completely edited out. Again, you have to ask yourself "what was the cultural climate of the Nicene council? Why did Constatine change his colors often to fit his political agenda?" This will have an affect on which books were chosen.
Then you have the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. (Which applies to the "enforcement" of scriptures.) Take a 55 mph speed limit. Technically, if you go 56 mph you have broken the law. However, the spirit of that law is to prevent speeding which hopefully averts accidents. Is the spirit of that law violated by going 56 mph? Not really. 1 mph won't make much difference. Same goes for Scriptures. This is what I feel that Jesus often butted heads with the Pharisees about: religious dogma that oppresses people and engenders fear versus the "weightier matters of the law": justice, mercy, and compassion.
So many layers to all of this, as you can see. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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BellaOnline Editor Wolf
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BellaOnline Editor Wolf
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So as much as his apostles adored him and wanted to carry his word exactly as is to all corners of the globe, they were after all only human. Even their very best efforts to be accurate might end up with mistakes in exact wording
That would be true without taking into consideration that the Holy Spirit was living within the apostles and reminding them of everything they had seen and were taught.
But I think relying on "the Bible must be 100% right" isn't really a good foundation, because we honestly don't know for sure WHAT the Bible said at this point.
They do have original texts and when scholars go to translate for a 'new' translation, they go to the original text. They do know Hebrew and Greek, etc and they do know the customs of that time. So the Bible stays true to the original. It was completed in less than 100 years after Jesus' death and still has a 99.5% accuracy rating to the original manuscipts.
I don't think anyone ever said the God would derive pleasure from torturing anyone.He has sent plenty of warnings to encourage people to turn to Him. I wonder, if there is no real eternal hell, why Jesus had to die an agonizing death on the cross as the sacrifice for sin?
Where do we get the word 'hell'? The Canaanite shrine in the "Valley of the Son of Hinnom" wa the place where human sacrifices were offered to Molech ( a pagan god). When Josiah, one of Judah's most Godly kings, came into power and decided to 'clean up' Israel, he so defiled the shrine as a place for idolatrous worship that it could never be used for that purpose again. He turned it into a garbage dump and incinerator for Jerusalem. Because of the continual fires that burned in the Valley of Hinnom, the word 'Ge-Hinnom' was gradually used to describe the place where the wicked are to be punished in the world to come. We know it today as Gehenna in its Greek form or'hell'.
I don't know that anyone can be scared into believing. It is a work of the Holy Spirit. I think some possibly need to hear about it in order to look at the possibility that their life and beliefs are flawed. Whether we want to believe in it or not doesn't make it less real.
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Zebra
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Zebra
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And whether or not one staunchly believes in an eternal hell doesn't make it so, either. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do humans really have a choice? Again, let's look at scripture. The Bible says that no man can come to God except the Holy Spirit draw him. A human's darkened understanding can only be "enlightened" by light, which the Holy Spirit brings. So how can mankind have a choice to choose heaven or hell in a literal, eternal sense when, without the Holy Spirit drawing them, they simply cannot be "enlightened"? (Or insert your favorite word...salvation, etc.) There is no choice without awareness and one cannot become aware until he "wakes up". (Notice that Genesis said that Adam fell asleep, but it never said that he woke up! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) There are many words for hell, actually. Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, etc. Again, it's not so simple as "hell means X". That's why I posted the links I did which examines the different types of hell, what it means in the Greek, etc. There is no one "original text"; in fact there is no autograph of original scriptures. They are all copies. Different scholars actually use different sources for translating. Some even use a Latin translation to translate from! (Catholicism and the Vulgate as one example.) Everyone's life and beliefs are "flawed" in the ego realm! Whatever leads a person to peace, joy and love is "right" because that is the nature of God--and the nature of the Divine spark we all have within. Here is an article about Bible translations, especially ones that do NOT teach about an eternal, fiery hell. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html An excerpt: And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Matthew 16:18 KJV) It would seem that if, according to Christendom's doctrines, 90% or more of mankind will end up in eternal torment that the gates of hell will prevail, and mightily! Do you believe the Bible, or what most churches tell us about the fate of the wicked? If you say, "I believe in the Bible," then you are faced with the question of "which Bible?" You see, as translators have received more and more understanding of the original languages of the Bible, "hell" and it's "eternal" status are rapidly fading right off the pages of most Bible translations, including the conservative ones!
Recently, we received a copy of the Holy Scriptures produced by the Jewish Publication Society. Of course, being the Jewish Bible, it did not contain the New Testament. In reviewing it, we discovered some interesting things. One shocking observation was discovering hundreds of footnotes as the following: Exact meaning of Hebrew uncertain, syntax of Hebrew unclear, the traditional reading madhebah is of unknown meaning, grammar of Hebrew unclear, meaning of first line uncertain, meaning of verse uncertain in part, force of Hebrew uncertain, construction of the verses uncertain, etc.. This was very shocking. Those of us coming from a conservative Christian background are usually told the Bible is inerrant. The Jews were the guardians of the Old Testament who were extremely diligent to preserve the text that not one jot or tittle was added or removed. Nearly all Christian Bibles rely on the Jewish Masoretic Hebrew text for translating the Old Testament into current languages. How was it possible for the translators to produce an "inerrant" Bible, when the "guardians of the so called 'inerrant' Hebrew text", did not know the meaning of many words and passages?
Unfortunately, the problem does not lie with the Jews lack of understanding of their own language, but with a false doctrine perpetuated by fundamentalists for many years. The Doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy. This doctrine has caused Christian leaders to have to outright lie to maintain their position. They have to take plain facts and hide them from their followers. Because they have locked themselves into the teaching that the King James Bible is "the inerrant" translation of the "so-called" original texts, they have locked themselves into a position where lying, distorting, and name calling are the only options left to maintain their ground. They say the 66 books of the present King James Bible are inerrant, but they don't tell you it lacks 14 entire books which were in the original King James of 1611. They don't tell you the King James Bible has been changed many times in the last 350 years and there have been thousands of corrections! They don't tell you the King James Bible was never authorized by anyone. They don't tell you the original KJV had a calendar of annual Holy days which all believers were to follow such as: Purification of the virgin Mary, annunciation of our Lady, Innocents day, etc.. They don't tell you the Greek text used by the King James translators produced by Erasmus, a Roman Catholic humanist monk, did not have manuscripts that contained all 27 books of the New Testament, so he borrowed out of the Latin Catholic Vulgate! No, they can't tell you these things because that would be the end of the lie which has kept them in business.
As we browsed through this excellent Old Testament translation, marvelling that these Jewish scholars were not ashamed to tell the world they were not perfect and therefore could not produce an inerrant translation, we noticed something else even more startling than the footnotes. We couldn't find the word "hell," even once! This was incredible! The very foundation of Christianity, the Old Testament, three quarters of the Bible, and the word "hell" could not be found. In searching dozens of English translations of the Old Testament, to our absolute amazement, the word "hell" could not be found in most of the leading translations. Abraham, Moses, David, and all the rest of the peoples of the Old Testament only knew one place where all people went, good or bad . . . Sheol, the grave, the place of the departed.
This information aroused our curiosity. The thought occurred: how many times is the word "hell" used in the Christian Bible. Surely, with as much as is taught about the subject in most present day churches, one would think this word would appear hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times in the Bible. The word "heaven(s)" occurs 603 times in the leading Christian English Bible translation, the New International Version. The New American Standard has the word heaven(s) 635 times. To our absolute amazement, the word "hell" in the New International occurred only 14 times! The New American Standard had it 13 times! What was even more astounding was that, like the Jewish Old Testament, neither of these leading Bibles has the word "hell" in the Old Testament! The creator, according to these top selling Bibles, agreed with the Jewish Old Testament that the concept of the place of eternal torment for the unrighteous could not be found in the first three quarters of the Bible. Adam was not warned of "hell." Abraham never heard of "hell." Moses, who brought the Creator's Law into the world warned that "the wages of sin is death," Sheol, the grave. He never ever warned about being roasted, toasted, and endlessly tortured. David, when chasing after Bathsheba, suffered the consequences of his sin, but eternal torment was not on his mind. How could the Creator be so thoughtless, and not warn millions of people of a fate they did not even know awaited them? Could this be just? Could this be loving?
Having several thousand dollars of Bible research software and dozens of English Bible translations, we wanted to see if these top respected English Bibles (NIV, NASB, etc.) just made a serious mistake or whether we stumbled on to something which should cause us to reevaluate what we have just accepted because we heard it so many times and just assumed was correct. Most of us picture an apple tree as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but you won't find it in any Bible, none of them! Most of us, I am sure, when thinking of the Passover, think of a lamb, but a goat was equally acceptable. Our minds have been doctrinally contaminated by traditions much more than perhaps we are willing to admit.
Of the many English Bible translations we searched, the King James Bible had the most number of cases where we found the word "hell" in the Old Testament. It translated the Hebrew word "Sheol" as "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times. Almost without exception, all the other leading Protestant Bibles didn't have the nerve to do what the King's translators did, that is, take the Hebrew word "Sheol" where everyone went, according to the Old Testament teachings, and divide it into "hell," a place for the unrighteous, and "grave" or "pit," presumably the place for the righteous. They translated this word according to their theology, and not according to the Hebrew. Most of the translations did not have the word "hell" in any part of the Old Testament. The ones that did, have mentioned it only a handfull of times, always from the Hebrew word "Sheol" which they translated the vast majority of times "grave, underworld, etc.." Those translations that use the word "hell" are so inconsistent with it, that it is impossible to determine which Scriptures clearly refers to "hell" and which refers to "grave." Where one translation had "hell," another had "grave." In other words, those translations that tried to put "hell" into the Old Testament couldn't agree with each other as to which verses spoke of "hell" and which spoke of the "grave."
People, if the love of Christ is in your hearts, this should cause you to really look into this. This world needs to be set free of false images and concepts of our wonderful Father. Please meditate on this very thoughtfully and prayerfully. If eternal torment is the penalty for sin and the Creator did not want anyone ending up there, then it should stand to reason that He would make the warning as absolutely clear as He could make it. If He is not a respecter of persons, as He claims in the New Testament, then that warning should be loud and clear to all mankind, past, present, and future. But the fact of the matter is that Adam was never warned, he was warned the penalty would be death, not eternal torment. Thousands upon thousands were born after Adam and they were never warned. Moses came along and gave to Israel His Law, which was binding only to Israel, and it mentioned that the wages of sin was death, not eternal torment. He wrote about blessings and cursing in this lifetime, not of some pending judgment which would set one's course for all eternity. He destroyed Sodom for great sin and promised to restore them one day and give them to Jerusalem as a daughter. (Ezekiel chapter 16) According to the Mosaic Law, the blessings and cursings dealing with the Law dealt with this lifetime, not with eternity. The consequence of breaking Moses Law was cursings in this lifetime, the greatest of which was a shortened life through an early death. Period! There is much more at that link, including indepth analysis of Sheol (the grave) and other words for "hell".
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I think that all the views discussed here are great. I like to see different points of view...
However, This is the "Christianity" Forum and here we do subscribe to the Bible as 100% true Word fo God. It was not "written by men" it was holy inspiration. Just as we subscribe to the belief that Jesus was God's Son and also human.
There have to be some foundations. If you want to have a discussion on the verification of the Bible, then I suggest you offer up that topic. But you will find my answer the same. The Bible is the foundation of Christianity and the Words of Jesus are found in there. This is the place where we can discuss Biblical truths, ot debate the truth of the Bible.
It always worries me when people enter into a Christian forum or chat and decide to change the direction of the discussion away from the Bible as truth. Without a foundation to draw from, there is no discussion.
We can discuss the truth found in the Bible concerning heaven and hell, but WE CAN NOT MOVE AWAY FROM THE BIBLE AS TRUTH. NOT HERE.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is a Christian Forum. And here, I decide that we will acknowledge the Bible as the Holy Inspired Word of God and nothing else. If you disagree with the fact that I am in charge here and this is my rule, you can go elsewhere.
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