Hello all,

It's been awhile since I've posted here, and have missed you all! I just need to vent. Who out there have friends who only talk to them when they want to brag about or show off their kids? Frankly, I am tired of this. I have two friends who had their first child last year. The only time I have heard from either of them is when they send an email with lots of "kid" pictures, or I receive "kid" pictures in my post office box. Now, these are/were (?confused at this point) really good friends, so if they can't call, I would at least expect a short email now and again to let me know how they are doing. I knew at first I probably wouldn't hear from them too much because they would be tired and trying to adjust to life with a baby. But, after 8 months?! I have honestly tried to stay in contact. I have called to leave voice messages and sent emails only to get nothing in return except some pictures of the kid. Honestly, I am about fed up! Who else has this happened to and what did you do? How did you handle it? Did you write them off your friend list? Or keep trying? At this point, I don't know that I'd want to be in touch or not. I sort of gave up already but am not sure that is the right thing to do since these truely were some close friends (or at least I thought they were!)

From my experience, I backed off the friendship for a while. With some friends it came naturally - my former best friend had small kids and I had a new marriage at about the same time, so it made sense that we were each focussed on our own stuff. My current "best friend" just became a new mom (at 40+) and I am having HUGE issues. It doesn't help that she lives in UK, but we used to email/call all the time. Since the preg/baby, I never hear from her at all, except a few times to just report on what the baby is doing now, not anything else.

With my other friends (older kids), I get SO weary of hearing how EVERYONE's kids are "gifted", excel at whatever sports they try, are artistically/musically talented, etc. Doesn't anyone have "average" kids anymore?

I guess you have to decide how much the friendship means to you. If it's important enough, I think you can weather through the kid stuff until your "old" friend resurfaces.

I had one college friend who I worked with for 3 years. For a couple ski seasons we were skiing together every weekend. We are both well conditioned athletes and enjoyed pushing each other within sensible limits. Then he and his wife had their first kid and he changed jobs. I tried to stay in touch for a few years after that but when I realized it was one sided and there was no effort on his part, I moved on and made new ski friends. Last I heard he had moved to the Denver area seven years ago. Although I visit this area several times a year, I never contact him. Despite mutual athletic interests, I suspect if we did meet up again it may not be all that fun for either one of us. He and his wife are kid crazy and my girlfriend and I are adamantly child free.

Mike

I haven't had to deal with the whole friends-having-kids aspect of the child-free life yet, seeing how I'm only 18...however, that doesn't mean they don't talk about kids and having their own and blah-blah-blah. My best friend called yesterday to tell me her older sister was pregnant. The first thing I asked was, "Is she married?" Now I don't know if that's rude or not, but I'm not going to ask all sorts of questions about the "baby" when first of all I don't care and second I don't want to send the wrong message. My other friend loves kids and was even going to become a special education teacher. She wants three while my best friend wants two. I can honestly see this becoming a problem in the future. I find kids repulsive no matter who they are, so what would be the fun in sticking with my friends when they start having kids? The friendship won't even be there anymore. So I know for me personally I'll be finding new friends through JustKidding or something. I think that'll be much more practical than trying to fake a friendship.

I'd try a "That's great, but how are YOU?" reply. If I got no response or more kid blather, I'd distance myself.

I get this [censored] from both family and friends. Also, they assume since I don't have any kids, that I'll be thrilled to be the "auntie." Nothing could be further from the truth. As many times as I've told them that I'm just not interested, they continue to harass me about it. They all know I don't want kids, so they expect me to get my "nurturing fix" through their kids. It drives me insane!

I'm seeing some distance from one of my friends who recently had a baby...for me, I've just kind of accepted that I'm not going to see a lot of her right now. I see her maybe once a month for a couple hours (always with the baby and usually the husband too). So I take her for where she's at and what she can offer the friendship. In the meantime, I'm looking into finding some other friends with interests outside of children.

But, as to your specific situation...if I was only getting stuff about the kids, no returned phone calls, emails, etc...I'd say the heck with it! And go find some other friends.

My OB-GYN is childfree and we were talking about losing friends over kids. She said that she and her husband just expect people to be incommunicado for a period of time when they have kids. So they have some younger friends who don't have kids yet, and some older friends who have already raised their kids, and they just kind of cycle through them depending on where everyone is at.

A slight digression...my OB-GYN is so awesome! She was very supportive of my decision not to have kids. She said she's known that she didn't want any since she was 13. Her goals in life were to "have a good career, own a great sportscar, and have someone to share it with"...and she seems to have done exactly that (though I'm not sure what kind of car she is driving). The funny thing is that I didn't know she was CF when I picked her...at the time I thought I was going to have kids and just liked her bedside manner. Turns out that she is happy to deliver other people's kids...then hand them off to the parents.

CF_GAL,

I find that as soon as a "friend" has a child, they drop off the face of the earth...no matter how much I try to maintain contact...even in the most minimal way. If I do hear from them, it is pics of the kid(s) or updates about the kids...as if they have been subsumed by the child's persona. The adult ceases to exist basically. It is very frustrating. That is why I'm on here. Trying to make connections with people who have something in common and can hold an adult conversation.

Every Christmas, we get what we call the "happy happy joy joy" letters from people detailing the adventures of their kids for the year. This is usually the only time we hear from them....and no pictures of the parents sent...just the kids. We have had people in these letters compare themselves literally to Joseph and Mary...since having kids they "understand what it must have been like to give birth to Jesus." I mean, it is really nauseating. The children are all "perfect and brilliant" and their lives are filled with "unending joy" with these little "gifts from God", they say. It's like they are propaganda ministers for a population explosion movement. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. How do you even talk to people who operate in such a realm of delusion?

Sorry to vent. This is a sore spot for me. I have another friend who just got pregnant....was literally bribed with money and a car by her family to do so. Now, just being pregnant, she can't seem to even answer an email. I guess it will be nothing when the kid comes. Sheesh!

I dont mind talk about kids accomplishments as long as thats not the only thing the parents talk about. I think it makes sense for parents to talk about their kids since they are central parts of their lives. Just like I talk about my pets and people who work a lot talk about their jobs. The problem is when anyone can talk about only one subject whether its kids, work, politics, pets,etc its boring.

Oh, my gosh, I know. My husband's parents are godparents to his second cousin's son. They fawn over their godson and his sister. There are more pictures of them on the walls than of my husband and his siblings.

Every Thanksgiving we have a "day after Thanksgiving" party which is solely to have the kids open their presents (they live a few states away and spend Christmas with the other side of the family.) So we have to spend an entire evening that is just for them.

The kids are cute kids, don't get me wrong. I told my husband that if we EVER have kids by any chance, we are NEVER doing anything like that.

When Christmas rolls around we get a cutesy dress-up picture of the two kids along with the annual "From the Mouths of Babes" letter. Instead of telling us what they've done all year, the parents write down all the "cute" stuff the kids say and then add their own comments. Like, "Mom, that chai tea is making you fat!" (Guess I drink too much of that, huh?)

Not much about kids actually makes me angry, but these letters seriously make me want to puke.

So, I am SO sorry for you, PMO!

Well, sounds like we are all in the same boat. And, it stinks to have a friend as you nicely put it,PMO, "drop off the face of the earth." But having all of you here make it SOOO much better! Thank you! :-) One of my friends sent pics of her baby a day or two ago. And she always sends out these mass emails (not that there is anything wrong with mass emails as I send them too on occasion, but gosh, can I get a personalized email once in a while?!)

PMO, this is a sore topic for me too, so vent all you want. It frustrates me to no end. Oh we get those "happy, happy, joy, joy" Christmas cards and letters too...Besides all the bragging and talk about how their children are so wonderful, etc, then you're stuck with all these pics of their babies and children. My husband and I joke that we are going to start sending a pic of our cat in a santa hat under our tree every year as our card (Yes, we can get him to sit long enough for a pic if we offer a treat). And along with the card, we're going to write about all the amazing things that our cat can do and has done. Then, talk about how cute and adorable he is!! Good luck with your friend that just joined the baby club.

And I agree, Tubby3pug...I expect some talk about a person's child. If I had a child, I would talk about them too. But, like you said, talking only about one thing gets very boring! I have a friend that my husband and I met on our honeymoon several years ago. Now, she is a friend....she has a baby, but still emails and talks about all sorts of other things besides the kid. Of course, she talks about the kid too, but I don't mind as long as we can have a normal adult conversation. And since we can, I actually find myself inquiring about her child because I don't feel she is pushing only that toward me. Too bad all the moms can't be like her.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this annoying! One of my dearest friends got married and started "trying" right away (I'll spare you details of the Xmas letter we got announcing THAT! EWW!). Before, we would email all day long nearly every day (she is in UK). As soon as she was pregnant, the emails stopped except mass updates on her pregnancy, ultrasound pics, etc. etc. Now that she's had the baby, I never ever hear from her at all. Like once a month maybe and it's always just a quick update on the baby - no news about her, her husband, their friends, family, etc.

I am one of those guilty letter writers. In my defense, and in the defense of those moms. They mean well, they truly do. Once you have kids, your life becomes selfless. Your time away from work is spent doing kid things, kid vacations, etc. You also don't want your picture taken--since you probably still have those extra pounds of pregnancy that can accumulate with more kids. I have four kids, a career, a husband, an extended family nearby, but the Christmas letter is all about the kids, and yes, their acolades. Since mom (and dad) spend all of their "extra" time coaching ball, watching ball, attending spelling bees, concerts, programs, piano recitals, what else is there? I guess if they know you don't appreciate the time and effort it takes to have those kids dressed up and photographed, the time it takes to put a letter together, then maybe you shouldn't be the recipient. Because they do mean well. And to them it's quite an accomplishment to send a form letter with a picture. So send a card in return, mom will appreciate it! And those Holiday letters become somewhat of a journal of family history in years to come.

I throw those Christmas kid picture post cards straight in the trash... they don't even go up on the mantlepiece with our regular Christmas cards.
Oh and parents... if the only activities that you did this year revolved around the kids... then it's time to take some YOU time. Have a vacation or an activity that you do WITHOUT the kids in tow. Then you will at least have something other than kids to talk about, and a more well rounded/balanced life. Focusing ALL of your attentions on the kids is not healthy for you, and it's not healthy for the kids either.

My husband's brother and his wife are CF, and they send out a letter every Christmas detailing all the things they've done that year. They travel to Hawaii, go scuba diving, train their dogs and enter them in obedience trials where they win lots of ribbons. It's great! There's no reason why CF couples can't send out their own letters!

We also know a couple who did send out a picture of their cat before they had kids. The wife, when she was pregnant, told her husband that they'd have to stop hanging out so much with people without kids (can you believe that?!). The husband still meets my husband for lunch on occasion - they were friends before either of them married. And I'm just as glad not to get together with her if I'm being dismissed simply because I don't have kids.

Oh mah goodness. I have to chime in. I have a friend who just had a new baby and she never returns my email. I will write her about something, I will ask a question and when my "You've Got Mail" sound effect goes off, I have a new picture of "Baby"!

Baby in the stroller.
Baby on the floor.
Baby in the jumper.
Baby with smooshed and smashed sweet taters on her face.
Baby in the tub with hubby.

ACK!!!!!
I am not anti-kids. My husband and I have no children, just cats. However, I have totally lost any communication with my friend that is not in the realm of OH MY GOODNESS, YOUR BABY IS SO CUTE.

I wonder if I would ask to see her bowel movements?

Chel

Oh, Chel, I fee your pain!!! That is EXACTLY what I'm going through with my (former?) best friend. Every friggin email (which is few and far between now) has an attachment of Baby, so I feel obligated to respond with some variation of "your baby is so cute". I don't hate kids, either, but my friend has dropped off the planet and been replaced by this obsessed pod person. My favorite is the once or twice (in the past YEAR) I've gotten almost regular-length emails from her that actually include things other than the baby... only for me to reply and then not hear from her again for a whole month (or more). But of course I couldn't possibly understand how busy/tired she is, either. Hrrmmph.

And truthfully, it's not that I totally can't stand the Christmas letters... I don't mind seeing what everyone is up to, esp. if I don't keep in touch through the year. It's the ones that go on about how great their kids are at EVERYTHING. It's never just "Jimmy's on the swim team" it's "Jimmy's the fastest swimmer on the team and takes all the gold medals, he's also captain of the soccer team, gets perfect grades and is class president." That's what drives me batty.

Tbunny:
I know what you mean about your friend falling off the face of earth. And then, if mention that, I hear how busy she is and how hetic it is and it makes me feel as if my life at times must be meaningless. Now, I know that is not the case, I am just telling you how I feel that second when I read her email.

AND THEN, there are times when she sends out monthly email updates to all the people on her mailing list and they all reply and I get their replies.

Oh geez, listen to me vent. Oops, the litter box needs changed.

Chel

...maybe Jimmy does win all the gold medals. I believe that defending mommies to the crowd is difficult. I do wonder if it will change any of you? As for spending ME time, I'm not too worried about that, you see you only have your children around for a short time... my girls asked me, mom what are you going to do when we're all grown and gone. I replied, get a manicure! It's almost ironic. Mom's love to have an adult conversation, believe me. And as parents we spend a lot of time with other parents... because that is who you see. As far as the unhealthy thing for your kids goes, I don't think so. If anything they will complain that you weren't there, they will never complain that you were. And having four kids, there is no way you can attend everything, so I don't think I hurt them by being there all the time. I remeber having my first child, it is profound. Everything that didn't matter before now matters. And you are exhausted, lucky to get a shower somedays. So don't be so hard on mommies--maybe offer to help. I'm sure most new moms would love a helping hand, or a nap!

I'm sorry iwonder, but you won't get much sympathy (or help) on the "Maried No Kids" forum.

Hi iwonder,

I don't think people here are necessarily hard on parents, mostly we're just bewildered by the obsessive style of parenting that is so prevalent today. It's obviously important to "be there" for your kids, but to "be there" to the point where you have no time at all, even to send an occasional email to an old friend?

I was fortunate enough to have very devoted parents who enjoyed spending lots time with me. However, EVEN THEY had their own interests & a social life that didn't always include my brother and me. We never went with them to fancy restaurants. I'm sure you will find this horrifiying, but my parents would even, on rare occasions, take a vacation by themselves while we stayed with our grandmother. I loved my grandmother and never resented this at all. When I was about 12, my mother decided to go back to school and get a graduate degree. I was happy for her! I'm very close to my parents, and so grateful that they were interesting people who raised us to be independent, capable individuals.

So, when I look at my friends who are obsessed with every poop their child makes, I can't help but think that this cannot be good for anyone. You know, one of my friends works at a college and told me that most of the students speak with their parents on their cellphones SEVERAL TIMES A DAY! This just freaked me out. Isn't college a time to establish independence? Is "being there" for your kids 24/7 preparing them for life or are you doing them (& yourself) a disservice?

One can only hope not. Meanwhile, don't hold your breath.

Seriously...is there any end to parents (not being satisfied with the 2 billion discussion boards available to them) crashing ours instead to pontificate at us?

If moms enjoy adult conversation, as you alledge, then they should HAVE adult conversation. That means talking about arts, letters, politics, and ideas. Not the recent 2nd grade talent show or the teething problems.

I have some friends who are parents. Their children have joined their families; they haven't made their entire lives about children (the ones who've made their lives only about their children are no longer my friends). Kids are adaptable, and these children of the "non-professional parents" (i.e., those who still have a bit of a life outside parenting) are some of the smartest and quickest around. They are smart and quick, very likely, BECAUSE they're not constantly catered to, unlike the hothouse flowers so many parents seem to tote around as accessories lately. Their parents have the adult conversations which iwonder states that so many parents want, but so few actually seem to have.

Elise
professional musical wrangler of adolescent children
friend to many childfree adults, as well as (all too few) interested, interesting, well-rounded parents

I have nothing against parents, nor the achievements of their children, but WHY do we have to listen to their constant stories of the latest gastro bug that Johnny had or the teething problems of little Kelly.

If parents are craving adult conversation, how about they keep it going when other people offer it to them? For example, I was recently on a business trip with some men from work - do you know what our dinner conversation was about? Prams. I kid you not. Prams. These are professional men and the best conversation topic they could come up with was prams and the best brand. This was followed up by some scintillating reviews of nappies and mobiles. I tried to steer the conversation in different directions, but these people would not be stopped. Apparently they thought the info would "Come in handy some day". Trust me, it won't.

I, too don't understand why parents feel the need to post on childfree boards, when there are so many parenting boards out there for their use. I know the parenting forums vastly outnumber the childfree ones.

I have a coworker who actually told me that she feels GUILTY if she buys new underwear for herself. She feels like she should buy things for her kids instead, like it takes away from what they need. She's not poor, she can certainly afford to buy herself new underwear now and then. Her kids aren't little, they're teenagers. Of course, they spend hundreds of dollars a month so her son can be in a hockey league.

It seems like these days parents give and give everything for their kids, all their time and energy, and do nothing for themselves. Women more than men, usually. I just don't think it's a good balance. Parents are people too, and their children will adapt just fine if they aren't coddled by their parents every moment of the day. I don't remember my parents being like that. My mom stayed at home with us, but there were times she and my dad got a babysitter and had an evening for themselves. They went into their bedroom and closed the door, and my brother and I were prohibited from entering their room without knocking! My parents didn't mourn when my younger brother moved out, they turned his room into a computer room, turned my room into a TV/guest room, and started enjoying traveling and retirement.

And I don't offer to babysit kids for moms because I am childfree, and have no desire to take care of children. I have lost friends to parenthood, but it is because they are unable to take a moment for themselves without the child, and I've had enough of meeting for lunch and the child dominating the time, climbing all over his mom, trying to get underneath the table, and the mom doing nothing to control him. If she could get her ex-husband to take the kid for the afternoon, and we could have some girls' time, that would be great. But she is not inclined to do that, because she would feel guilty spending time without her child. How healthy is that?

Cindy

"I do wonder if it will change any of you?"

You might want to take a peek at the other threads here. I bet you'll notice a common theme. Just sayin'

Also, I wouldn't want to receive a boast-filled letter about anyone's year, parents or childfree alike. I would find it obnoxious and irritating. If one must compose an essay on the previous year's activities, make it fun and interesting for the reader. If that's not possible, save a tree and don't write anything.

I'm pleased to say I have no idea what a pram is.

I have 2 dogs and 2 sugar gliders. They are a handful, almost like kids. Certainly NOT as difficult to care for or as expensive or time-consuming as kids. BUT - I do not go around complaining about how exhausting it is to have 4 animals. It was my choice to have them.

That's really not as harsh as it sounds, I just can't think of a better way to put it at the moment.

My sister has 1 kid and another on the way. I enjoy helping out, because she's my sister. I don't mind helping out my friends, either, if they are there for me.

The problem is when your friends have kids and drop off the face of the earth, and then they only contact you either complain or brag about their children.

Frankly, I don't care. I'm not going to put work into a friendship and get nothing back. I'm not going to go help out with someone's kid when they can't respond to an email, or return a phone call. I understand that having kids is busy. I really, really do. I've babysat since I was 11. I understand how time-consuming they are.

BUT- when there is nothing else to your friendship except your friend selfishly talking about NOTHING BUT their child, well, why would you want to be friends with that person? Why would you want to help them out?

I'm making new friends to replace my old friends. Because my friends with children put nothing into our friendship.

I chose to be childfree precisely because I didn't want to do "mommy" stuff...so why would I want to do it with other people's kids?

I realize that, particularly when people have newborns, there is a lot of work and it's hard to get away, so I don't expect to see new moms very much. But come over and help? Why? That's what I'm trying to get away from!

My other thought on this statement is... sorry new mom... you wanted a baby... you knew that it would mean you wouldn't get any sleep and would have a hard time finding time for you or time for a shower... so suck it up! You wanted this (if you didn't you would have had an abortion or given the child up for adoption)... don't come whining to me. Have a nice day.

Iwonder, I really don't think you understood the point of this topic. Women without children get tired of being taken advantage of or being taken for granted by their friends with children. And many mothers do take their childless friends for granted. My best friend has two great kids - I love them dearly. But the older they get, the less I hear from her. And when I do hear from her, it's because she wants to vent about something (often involving her kids). I wouldn't mind this except for the fact I can't do the same - when I call to vent, it's impossible to talk because of the screaming kids in the background. And I recognize that she can't just toss the kids into a room and lock the door, but it does get tiresome. And let me just reiterate that I actually like many kids - I love beyond words my nieces and nephews. It just gets lonely and tiresome dealing with friends with children.
I have to agree with many of the posters on this topic:

1. When you say "don't be so hard on mommies - maybe offer to help. I'm sure most new moms would love a helping hand or a nap" - We're not being hard on "mommies" - we're stating our own valid feelings. Chastising a group of women on a board for those who've chosen not to have kids is weird. Frankly, I've chosen not to have children because I don't want to be so exhausted every single minute of every single day. People who choose to have children shouldn't mind losing sleep - you've made a choice. I'm not saying this to be harsh - I'm saying it because it's true. And based on what you've said above, my guess is that most new "mommies" never gave much thought about how much work motherhood would be and when the baby arrives, are stunned by what they experience. I feel bad that they didn't think the choice through before they made it, but coming on a married no kids board to chastise childless women to make yourself feel better is, again, weird.

2. Which brings me to my next thought. I don't understand why women with children would be remotely interested in this board. I just don't get it. I don't go to parenting boards because what's the point? I don't have children...what valid thing could I possibly have to offer there? It's been a while since I've actively visited this board and I can't believe how many women with children post here now. I recognize that this is due to the way Bella Online is set up, but when you read a topic that involves childless women and their choice to not have children, why, if you're a woman with children, would you post here? I have to believe this is a control issue....or maybe an impulse control issue. I even think some of the "mommies" who come on here to chastise are a little selfish - it's okay for them to have a board to vent on, but it's not okay for childless women to have a board to vent on. I just don't get it.

3. Are the women with children who post here strictly to chastise the childless women jealous? Is the financial, physical, and emotional freedom causing jealousy? And if so, does chastising childless women alleviate some of that jealousy? And finally, do the women with children who chastise people on this board ever realize how inappropriate they are being? I'm sure that your day has been long and difficult dealing with children, but do you really think it's appropriate to take it out on childless women? Don't you feel at all bad for coming onto to one of the few forums for childless women's issues and attempting to derail it by taking away the safety of this forum? I would never go onto a parenting board and start offering up criticism. Why? Because it's inappropriate. I'll say this again - this is one of the few places on the planet for childless women to come and discuss the issues and challenges they face and for a woman with children to attempt to derail this through criticism and chastising is unkind, selfish, and self-centered.

Sorry to offend anyone - I'm just annoyed that a great place is being hijacked...

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Snooks.

I too don't know why people with children feel that it is necessary to post on a board for people who are child free... especially when they are merely demonstrating behaviours which are being criticized here.

We don't feel the need to go over to the parenting boards and tell the people on those boards that we don't agree with their decision to have children...

Maybe we should just ignore the childed individuals who post here.

I am with you guys--and I am curious as to why people with children post here. I have never thought to go to the parenting boards...or married with kids boards...

When I get down about the way I am treated or looked down on by the mommies I run into, my husband reminds me that by making the choice I have made I am somehow threatening their lifestyle. Saying it is wrong without verbalizing it. I think this is hard for most of us to understand, since it seems like those of us who have chosen to not have kids are the strong, independant types who don't feel threatened by mommies or anyone else!

"don't be so hard on mommies--maybe offer to help"???

Helping out w/other people's kids is the last thing I want to do w/my free time.

I understand that you want to be "always there", however it is imperative that you take some time out for yourself. I don't have experience as a mom, but I have experience as a child whose mom was always there.

The good points--I certainly never got into trouble. Someone was watching my every move!

The bad points--my mother had invested her entire life in me and my brother. She had NOTHING for herself. You can see this as selfless, sure. But since my mother missed following her dreams she pushed these dreams onto me. Once I was ready to be on my own she had no idea what to do as an individual and continually inserted herself and her views into my life. I was never allowed to be an individual. I had to be an extension of her. I understand the dynamics now that I am in my 30's. At 20, I seriously considered disappearing and letting noone know where I had gone.

I never asked my mom to always be there. That was her decision. I do believe that growing up it would have been healthier, particularly in my teen years, to have had some space.

I am going off on a tangent, but to any moms that are reading this, regardless of whether you never do anything for yourself and focus 100% on your kids, there is no guarantee your kids will turn out the way you had hoped. Please be aware of this and remember that it was your decision to live ONLY for your children. I imagine that on this board I am not the only one who has experienced this. My parents were (and may still be) disappointed that their investment did not "pay off". Be prepared for your children to go their own way and give them the freedom and the space to do it.

I wish my mother lived for herself and not just for me and my brother.

I couldn't agree more - I had the same experience with my mother. As a result, my 20's were incredibly difficult for both of us - it was one long constant argument. To this day, she still has no idea who she is or what she wants. I hate that for her. I really wish she would have spent some time during my childhood exploring who she was....I really wish she would have found some interests and hobbies. It would have been good for both of us. As a teenager, I needed some space and needed to be allowed to grow into my independence, but that didn't happen. At retirement age, she doesn't have any real interests to keep her entertained and busy. Being constantly "selfless" for your children isn't really all that selfless in the end...

My grandma was a stay-at-home mom and her whole life revolved around my dad and uncle. She married early and had kids early. She never learned to drive, and she didn't have a job once she had kids. After my grandpa died, my dad and uncle ended up having to do everything for her and drive her everywhere. She was very, very needy. She complained about everything. If you didn't call her every single week she was going behind your back to the rest of the family complaining about you. She couldn't do anything for herself. It was really all a ploy to get people to come visit her (and it's not like she was neglected - not by a long shot!) She also didn't have any friends except for her sisters-in-law. It's also sad because she made a lot of her own family resent her because we always felt like we could never do enough to make her happy.

She went into a wonderful retirement community a few years ago, and she just blossomed. This 80-year-old lady is now more active than I've ever seen her. Most of the time I can't get ahold of her by phone because she's so involved in everything, she has SO many friends, and she's always helping the ladies who can't walk as well, or who can't see as well. I tell you, it's like being with a completely different person! I think she's also now feeling regret that she quit her schooling and her job. It's kind of sad, though, that she didn't have that opportunity until she was 80.

My mom is the opposite. She was a really good mom. She was always really involved in Girl Scouting and doing tons of trips with them. I would just go stay with my grandparents (my parents were divorced.) But she took me to gymnastics twice a week and was my Girl Scout leader and took me to piano lessons and never missed a single performance. It was really good because then it showed me that I could be really busy and still have a life. Of course, when I graduated high school she pretty much moved in with her now-husband. The point is, she was around just the right amount when I was a kid - it made me independent, I had enough space, but I never felt like I was abandoned or anything.

Overloading kids with parent time is ridiculous. Kids and parents need to have their own separate time - for their own sanity.

wow.. didn't realize I crashed your board. I just thought the Christmas letter, which this topic was originally about, was interesting. Now I find the entire conversation interesting. And just an FYI, I have absolutely nothing negative to say about being CF. I was originally commenting on the Christmas letter--that mom probably feels like she accomplished something. As far as the issues, I was never a play date mommy, I don't know what a pram is, and yes--new moms are exausted. It is beyond me why a parent would share their childs latest teething bouts with anyone--unless it's just another reason why they're exausted. As far as criticism and chastising, you are correct it is unkind, selfish and self-centered. So if commenting, don't be so hard on mommies is criticizing, chastising--sorry, it wasn't meant to be, and no, I don't get it. But the one thing I have concluded is that parents and CF will never truly understand the flip side. And it's most unfortunate that friendships are lost because of it, because of lack of time or lack of a common thread or maybe both.

I honestly don't mean to be harsh, but a few of the things you said sounded chastising...like a mother to a child.

Here are some of my frustrations and observations about friends with children - and they may very well not be true for you....

1. It's just not possible to have conversations on the phone anymore with friends who have children - the children always demand attention. And if they don't get attention, then bad behavior begins. Ultimately, my friends will have to get off the phone after a few minutes to go be with their kids. My frustration with this - when I was little, I was not allowed to interrupt my mother when she was on the phone. If I did, I got into major trouble. Today's generation of parents (at least the ones I know - both family and friends) are incredibly appeasing and lenient. It's really hard to wrap my mind around a fit-throwing child controlling whether or not the adult mother gets to have a phone conversation (and let me just say that not all of these children are toddlers - some of them are definitely old enough to know better). I guess it's just a different generation....

2. If I make plans with friends who have children, they inevitably get canceled - sometimes due to illness (which is perfectly understandable), a babysitter falls through (sucks, but also understandable), or getting ditched for other female friends who do have children. This last one happened to me yesterday (and not for the first time) - my best friend and I had plans and she forgot we had plans (which were made only the day before)....she went and had lunch and spent time with other women who do have kids. I'll be honest - I'm not talking to her right now because of this. I'm frustrated and this kind of situation has grown tiresome.

3. When you are around your friends and their children, you have no recourse if the child acts badly towards you. You can't discipline them or even tell them "No, you may not act that way." If you do, your friendship suffers. So, if little Susie or Johnny hits, kicks, bites, etc., you just have to take it.

4. The conversations I do get to have with friends with kids revolves pretty much around stories about the kids.....24/7. Normally, they only ask about how things are going with me toward the end of the conversation when they're rushing to get off the phone. That gets tiresome, too.

5. I'm very much expected to think that whatever little Susie or Johnny does is cute. Unfortunately, it's not always cute....or entertaining. Parents get very touchy about people not being as entertained by stories and events surrounding the children. And let me reiterate, there are stories and events that are cute and entertaining - just not all of them.

6. I do think women without children have a decent understanding (not an expert understanding) about what it's like for women with children - we are surrounded by women with children. Every single day, week after week, year after year, we are constantly surrounded by women with children. This understanding of how much work is involved in raising children tends to be why we don't have them. I've seen how much work is involved in raising children - from birth all the way through teenage years and what I've seen has led me to decide it's too much work. But I'm guessing that most women who have children don't have many women in their lives without children - at least according to my friends and family, it tends to be that way. The majority of women in my life have children....

It's not just the toddlers, either, Snooks. Below is an article about today's college students. Having been told "yes" all their lives, praised constantly, and told that they're "special" (sorry...if everyone's special, then that means that nobody is special), they're very self-centered and exceedingly easily frustrated by real challenges as young adults.

Excessive praise and focus on each and every development in the child's mindset every second of the day has led to this sorry development. These kids should have been out in the backyard, scraping their knees, digging in the sandbox...or (like my favorite pre-teen memories) just reading a book in the hammock on a summer's afternoon, not getting trucked around to cram courses, karate classes, and 10 soccer games a month. Kids have no time to be kids anymore; no time to develop their own resources or problem-solving skills; no space to really get to know themselves outside of an adult-supervised situation.

Some of the happiest kids I see in my work are figuring out their own problems (an adult is nearby if there's a big problem, but otherwise the kids are left to their own --- like during the after-school hours at the school where I work --- to "knock the edges off each other", as we're found of saying at my school). Nonetheless, I still see some of these problems at the high school where I teach, even though our school focuses on fostering independence and self-motivation (almost to a fault).

Read it and weep...what kind of adults will these kids become?

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funny thing, I agree with the majority of the above... hmmm a common thread? I do believe that parents, more often than not, are appeasing. At our house we had to choose our battle. Otherwise it would be a fight all the time. Lenient, we weren't. For some odd reason a single conversation took place, and we were fortunate to raise three responsible teenagers. They paid the price for it in otherways, their peers really never understood why attending the local party just wasn't optional. Not to worry, they get plenty of it at college. One teenager to go.. and who knows?

I think parents are more appeasing now than ever before because more often than not both spouses work outside of the home. It's a lack of energy and a numb mind thing. And parents are often on different pages from one another; what's important to mom isn't important to dad and vice versa. Again, a time thing.

And Snooks, it was just really awful of your friend to cancel your lunch date. Telephone conversations can be awful--that I do get. One time my oldest, who was six at the time, was in the yard reading her book, the phone rang and I said watch your brother. I went in and had a great conversation with a friend, came back out and my son was missing. If it wasn't for the dog... he was in a field with a monstor tractor running. It was horrifying, as the driver would have never seen him. So it's bad for both you and your friend, maddening to a point.

My youngest, now 13, was a difficult child at best. To the point she would growl at people, I will never understand why. Thankfully she has grown into a pretty nice young lady, but there were days I had no idea what to do, and believe me I tried it all.

Kids don't have the chance to be kids is so true. In our community it isn't even the parents who impose that on kids, it's the school system and extra curricular activities. If you are not in the gym all summer, you'll pay the price for it in the fall. It's absolutely insane. We were fortunate enough to have the above--reading books and the sandbox, but then came the high school years, and one finds out it's no longer summer fun...

Ah, and yet it is "kids have to be kids" argument is what I hear all the time with kids who are acting up. So maybe since parents overburden their kids with activities and committments, they make up for taking "fun" time away by letting them act like wild animals?

Oh, and by the way, speaking of committments - I used to teach gymnastics, and we would prepare all year with gymnastics routines, dance routines, etc. and then the day of the competition, some girls wouldn't show up. It didn't affect the other girls if it was just a gymnastics competition, but it DID affect them when it was something the whole group had to do.

Reasons they missed? Oh, she didn't feel ready. She was too nervous. She was too tired. Her friend asked if she could spend the night. She didn't feel like it. I thought it was going to be too long of a day.

My friend at work has a daughter who was supposed to participate in a similar program. Her gymnastics team was going to do a little exhibition at a college meet. The daughter didn't feel she was ready, and my friend didn't want to sit through a whole day, so they didn't go. (I can sort of understand, though, because her husband is a deadbeat who won't do anything with the kids so she does everything, AND he refuses to give her a divorce and she can't afford to fight for one.)

Anyway, in addition to not being able to control their kids, parents also are not teaching them what "committment" means.

I don't dislike children like maybe others do. Like I said, I love my nieces and nephews and really my friends' kids are beautiful little kids. I just don't want to raise any of my own.

I've said this in a separate thread, but it's really challenging to find your place in the middle of people who accept and fit into the social norm of wanting children. It's incredibly difficult to find or create a community of people who want similar things in life. I now feel out of place in so many situations that involve my friends with kids. It's really hard to participate in a conversation with a group of friends and acquaintances who have kids because really, that's all they talk about. I usually end up sitting there listening and not saying anything. It gets so unbelievably boring. And ultimately I'm left out.

Snooks, that's exactly how I end up feeling when we socialize with my husband's friends, the women end up in a room talking about kids, the men are in another room discussing sports (which I can't contribute much to, at least not at their level of enthusiasm) and I end up bored on my own! And he can't understand why I feel that way?

Cindy

I thought I was the only one experiencing this - I tend to just follow my partner like a puppy dog to ensure that I don't get trapped by the "mummy brigade". The only time this doesn't work is camping weekends when I don't want to go 4WD'ing with the boys and I'm stuck at camp with the mums/children. The first time we went camping with these people the children question came up about 10 seconds after my partner had left, then I got a good 20 minutes of how wonderful children are followed by having one of the mums leave me in charge of her offspring. If they're so great, you look after them.

The thing is though, the whole conversation with them centred around children. I tried to go to work/current affairs/anything else, and they always bring it back.

Oh no - you're definitely not the only one experiencing this. Not to hijack this thread, but this is one of the harder aspects of not having kids when everyone else does. It gets very boring and lonely at social functions when you're the only one without children. It's just so awkward. I don't know if I should just dismiss myself or sit looking as bored as I feel.
I'm really going to have to start some kind of group in my area. As I've gotten older, it's harder to meet new people - especially childless people.

Snooks, hijack this thread... it will make me happy! A thought... all the couples you know will someday be childless, so to speak. Five pages and going on... it has turned out quite interesting.

Not necessarily childless...I know plenty of people who are as obsessed over their grandkids as many people are over their kids...it happens!

Cindy

"all the couples you know will someday be childless, so to speak"


That's crossed my mind....but by then I'll be in an even different place.

It really is so awkward - dinner parties, get-togethers, shopping and lunch....if it's with women who have children, I do get left out. Shopping can be the worst - if I go shopping with female friends who have children, I either have to go off on my own or hang out in the children's section while they shop for their kids. I can't express the level of boring that is for me. But I have to smile and pretend I'm okay with it if I don't want to damage those friendships. It's a balancing act....literally walking a fine line. There's a lot of hyper-sensitivity that I have to navigate.

I don't want to over-generalize, but do women with children expect us to be okay with sitting awkwardly through these dinners listening to conversations that only center on children...to wait patiently in the children's section of a store while they shop for kids? I'm really just not sure what I'm supposed to do during these situations or what's expected of me by these friends, relatives, and acquaintances. Redirecting conversations rarely works. And there's no way I'm telling a woman that I'm bored with watching her shop for her kids. Are we just expected to try to fit in? I'd honestly love to know the answer to this because I'm at a loss over my role in these peoples' lives.

If someone ONLY talked about their kids, or any other single subject for that matter, I'd have to distance myself. Same with painfully boring outings like shopping with a young child. I'm much happier being alone than stuck in a dull situation with others.

As much as I don't want to reject a friend for being a parent, I also don't want to engage in activities that will cause me to resent them. Also, that will encourage them to find some kid lovers or fellow parents to engage in those activities with.

Wow Snooks, maybe you could assert yourself a little about this stuff w/o damaging the friendships. And really, your friends should get a sitter for an adult outing sometimes! Could you be worrying too much about what they think or how they may react? I can't stand shopping w/anyone - it's just boring looking at stuff others are interested in. So I just don't do it - I just tell my friends I don't find group shopping fun and we do other things. It's not a big deal for me, but then again most of my friends are CF or their kids are older.

I think what's hard for me is that most of the people in my life aren't childfree. And honestly, I'm bringing some of this stuff up because I realize that there are moms who read this board...and I hope some of this is enlightening. I don't want to give up some of my friendships - I just don't see them as expendable. I've been through some experiences in my life that don't allow me to be so black and white, so cut and dried.

I've gotten the impression both from women with children in my life and women with children who visit this board that it never occurs to them that their childfree friends feel alienated from them. I know at dinner parties that women start talking about children and it just never occurs to them that those of us without children are being excluded from the conversation. The fact is, most people can't read minds....and until the topic is brought up, they're never going to know how their friends feel. I'm hoping that some women with children might be more enlightened by this conversation.

I did have a conversation with the friend that ditched me....it didn't go well at first, but I stuck with it and managed to explain the difficulty I'm having with some of my friendships (and she knew she's made me mad by ditching me, so that part of the conversation was pretty easy). I think I actually got a few points across.

If they're real friends they won't ditch you because you want some ocassional adult time and conversation. I'd try to do both if you want to take a soft approach - some outings with and conversations about kids, but also ask for what you want in the other direction - be willing to compromise. If you do it honestly and politely it should be ok.

When the conversation at dinners has gone on too long about kids, change the subject. Be prepared w/topics.

Good luck!

Really. If kid-centric stuff is all you do, then get your own life and stop living vicariously through your children. If you and your husband have careers, how about talking about them? People made friends with YOU, not your KIDS. They want to talk to YOU, not your KIDS. Sorry. But if you have so fundamentally changed from the person you were, then, okay. You have been subsumed by the kid culture. Kids should be a part of your life, not take it over! You are way out of balance otherwise...and very boring to other adults...unless they are just like you..."selfless"...nice jab iwonder. You apparently have enough free time to get on here and poke at us freaks.

I get the ultrasound shots and the details of the ob/gyn exams....and how they had to kick their inlaws out of the hotel room they were sharing b/c the egg was dropping and it was time for sex. Ewww. I don't burden people with details of my bodily functions. When did this become intersting? Any correspondence is all about them and the pregnancy,etc. I try to steer the conversation, if there is a "converstation" to other topics...to no avail. I give up anymore. According to iwonder, they are "selfless" and we are "selfish"...us against them. Screw it. They can't see the forest for the trees.

I rescued a blind dog from a shelter...no eyes. He's special needs. You don't hear me whining about all the extra time it takes to train him and help him around...no just letting him out in the yard. I love that dog, though. I CHOSE HIM. You CHOSE your life, believe it or not.

Pregnancy doesn't just "happen magically" to people...we know what causes that these days...so don't try to martyr yourself here, iwonder. There are plenty of days I don't get to nap...or shower...or shave my legs...because I'm too busy caring for others (my husband, blind dog, abandoned cat, my horse, creatures outside), tending my home, and taking a full graduate school load...in conservation biology...trying to save the planet buckling under all the pressure from those of you that want to birth us into environmental oblivion. Think about the 40,000+ diapers your kids generated in life that we all have to know live with. Yum. Thanks. It's our planet too.

It's hard enough being around a group of women who do nothing but gab about kids. What really gets me is when they sit around and compare pregnancy stories. YACK!!! I mean come on. Do they really think that their childfree friends want to sit there and listen to that garbage? This is when I want to run away screaming.

Yep - me too. I get the same glazed look they get when I talk about tofu. Difference is, I don't talk about tofu every day!

my biggest beef on this subject is women who hijack the conversation away from pertinent issues just to talk about their kids or how tired they are because of the kids. what i am specifically refering to is that i have a coworker that drives me crazy: we'll be at work, talking about the work itself, and she will interupt whomever is speaking to talk about what her kids said that day... and it won't even be a cute anedote related to the conversation. almost every thing she adds to work conversations is off topic and rudely introduced. unfortunately, i can't say much to her about it. i work with a very small group of people and she is highly sensitive. if i make her angry, the entire team will suffer. argh! thanks for giving me a place to vent about this.

I also appreciate the venting - it's kind of taboo to have these child unfriendly feelings but I'm letting my freak flag fly more and more about it : )

After your coworker interupts you, don't respond, then simply continue with the previous conversation. Is that too hostile?

I've tried that. A lot. The woman apparently doesn't care. She just keeps talking as if I'm not there. The other parents in the group just follow her into the land munchkin discussion. And I end up completely out of a conversation that could have been productive and involved everyone...

WAVE THAT FREAK FLAG, Nosy! I'm waving it with you!

Oh well, you tried - she's just rude!

It really is awful to have a conversation hijacked and turned into a discussion about having children and raising children. And the fact is, even when you try to turn the conversation back to the original conversation, it will always return to children if mothers are present. It's so awkward to go to dinner parties and have all the women talk about their children incessantly....

Hi all, I have to join into this one...I'm 26 so luckily still have a bunch of CF friends (group is getting smaller by the day, it seems). However, the last guy I dated was a very long term relationship and his family, younger and older, all insisted on having children (in and out of wedlock, regardless of income or some of them still living at home with Mom and Pop) so needless the say, the conversation CONSTANTLY revolved around their kids. If we were camping, I'd find a reason to scoot out to the store, go for a rollerblade or bike ride, etc. If my boyfriend insisted on hanging out with the kids, I'd try to find one of his siblings to go shopping, etc. Unfortunately, I did my share of listening intently to fascinating stories of poo and puke and "she's so smart! she said mommy AND dada today!" If you want to remain friends with people with kids, it's a necessary evil. Sometimes changing the subject is like trying to stop a tornado with a fly swatter.

All the parent poo talk makes me think - what would people think if everyone shared poo stories about themselves, their spouses, friends, pets, etc.? Maybe when someone starts talking about their kid's poo we should bombard them w/adult poo stories! It would be funny but I don't think I could bring myself to do it.

nosy, that would be funny! but I couldn't do it. I don't like to talk about bodily functions in general.

However, I have to confess -- my rabbit friends spend a lot of time talking about rabbit poop. Only because rabbits have such sensitive systems and health problems are often first evident in the litterbox. And these conversations are usually confined to other like-minded rabbit folk and center around general health, not the "yuck" factor.

Yeah, my husband & I talk about our dog's poo regularly (we can tell when she gobbles up the bird seed!), but I don't make it a topic of discussion at work on a regular basis.

Come on parents - we don't want to know!

I've just received an e-mail from a friend attaching an update photo of her niece (whose mother I also know). What took me aback slightly was the fact that the e-mail was addressed only to her female friends - it seems that women are expected to find this sort of thing interesting while men aren't. This is a good friend, so I don't mind, but I did find it a bit odd!

What a great observation! In reality, I don't have any more interest than most men I know.

I just found your website, and I probably won't stay CF, but it has been very enlightening for me to realize I could actually assert that I'm not going to jump on the baby bandwagon right away like all of my friends and my sister. So, her kids and my kids won't be the same age. Tough cookies. I'm not ready yet. I want to be regular, plain, old married for a little longer before all the baby chaos starts.

But anyway.... I think it's really important for people to have variety in their lives. It's good for the kids too- to have female role models other than stay at home moms. If all of the women that a child ever knows are either school teachers or moms, then that's not helping your daugther be all she can be.

Welcome pinkbows, you & your family will be better off doing what's right for yourselves rather than blindly yeilding to societal pressures.

I'm a CF school teacher who went to an Ivy League college, and I feel an excellent role model for the girls and boys I teach. The important thing is to let children know they have choices, and that they don't have to go along with the crowd just because it's what they're "supposed" to do. They need to be empowered to make the choices that are right for them (traditional or not), and respected, not questioned, for the decisions that affect only themselves. It's what we who are on this board want as well - just that we be respected for the choices which are our right to make.

Well said iluvsummer!
I wish everyone could feel that empowered and make only the choices that are right for them, and not succumb to peer pressure to be the "norm".
There is a lot of talk about peer pressure in high school: to drink, have sex, smoke, do drugs etc.
There is not as much awareness that peer pressure continues into adulthood: get married, have kids, make lots of money, buy a house, pay for your kids' college education, give up your life for your kids etc... Really, does it ever stop? Everyone is different - can't we realize that we should just let everyone decide what's right for them???

Thanks, jmb! You have an excellent point too about peer pressure continuing into adulthood, just with different pressures. I never thought of it that way - just thought of it as society's expectations - but it really is a very sophisticated and very pervasive form of peer pressure.

PMO, how nice of you. Snooks, I'm glad you stuck to your point with your friend. PMO may I suggest to you that I did believe that Snooks and I ended on a note of we're on different pages, and I don't believe CF and mother's will be on the same page, but I do believe they can still be friends and it's sad when friendships end because of it. And Snooks made a valid point about enlightenment. And just an FYI PMO, cloth diapers except at bed time.

Yes, but! As adults (and even older kids), we develop something that psychologists like to call "ego defenses". These allow us to say "#@$% 'em. I've thought it through, and I'm going to do what I've decided is right for me, even if it's not popular".

What's odd is that some of the people we might think of as the most egotistical ("me, me, me, bling, bling, bling!") actually have very poor ego defenses. If the Queen Bee in their little myopic social group told them to jump off a bridge...they just might.

Elise